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Do you aggree with the Two-worlds??


Marco9966

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The two worlds thing is weird. I don't really care personally it just seems...incredibly pointless? They also don't seem to even take it that seriously anyway, not only because we haven't really seen any undeniable evidence of it but how they've spoken about it ("oh, sometimes they cross over").

The existence of a Classic Dimension would only be a problem for me if it came with a retcon that the classic games never happened in the main series anymore, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I also like multiverse stuff so yeah, I'm cool with it.

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There's still issues with... why he even did that in the first place. But that's not even the important shadow issue. 

Hidden Palace Mural.

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It's the dumbest thing Takashi Iizuka could've come up with. It makes no sense what so ever. It feels like he just pulled it out of his ass...almost like when you're taking a test and you have little time and you just have to guess. IMO, the biggest problem with the two worlds thing is the presence of Angel Island. It exists both in the human world and the anthro world. I've heard users say it crosses between both worlds. Pfft! Wouldn't that mean Angel Island would have to stay in each world for an extended period of time? Also, how did Professor Gerald know exactly how to make Shadow look like the anthro hedgehogs of Sonic's world without interacting with them if they're in separate worlds? Stuff like this makes me prefer Archie's canon and even some fanon to the Sega games. The inconsistencies, plot holes, and downright dumb answers like this make me want to reboot the franchise if I was in charge.

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36 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

How did he get there

He(or rather, the explorer/archeologist/sentry who discovered Echindas) flew.

How he/they got into Hidden Palace itself, though,....

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3 hours ago, Razule said:

Of course if you don't want him to be saying what he's saying he won't be saying what he's saying. 2/3 of the people,  who speak English, we've heard talk about it say literal worlds.

 

 

I’m aware confirmation bias is a powerful thing, and if I’m intellectually lazy enough about things, I can be just as susceptible to it as anyone else. But as I’ve said already, I am simply proposing a way in which the two worlds comment can be reconciled in a relatively simple way with previously established canon, given what has been said so far. I'm not saying it's true. I’ve never said anything to the effect of “I know what Iizuka actually meant” and I already said that there could be some new element in a future game that could undo that possible explanation I mentioned.

With regard to the others who have mentioned the two worlds (Ian Flynn and Aaron Webber I believe), we don’t really know how much they know beyond reading the same comments/Q&A that we did. Indeed, Flynn said that it raises a lot of strange questions about Chaos, Shadow etc, and it would be very interesting to find out if he has been given anymore information that solidifies the definition of “worlds” than we have. Webber, to me, sounds like he just read the same Q&As that we did, and isn’t entirely sure what Iizuka means, but obviously must go along with it given his position. I don’t know that, but that’s my honest interpretation, withholding as much confirmation bias as humanely possible. If those guys don't know what Iizuka means, it shows, to your point, a real lack of effort to communicate a consistent and established interpretation of the universe to all involved with the franchise. I understand that some think it’s futile to try and make sense of it, and they have solid reason to think that. I might even agree with them. I’m not even saying that I believe my potential explanation to make it things simpler. I’m saying “Given the lack of any in-universe acknowledgement of these separate worlds, here’s a way to interpret those comments given what we have been so far shown in the games.” It doesn’t mean I personally believe it.

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I'm still of the mind that there are not 2 canon different planets that Sonic jumps between...

These are Iizuka's quotes: 

Game.com's Mark Scott: Could you tell us a bit about the story behind Sonic Colours? It looks more like the old games, which were set on Moebius, than the new-style Sonics set in Station Square...

Iizuka: We have two different worlds for Sonic games – one is human, and one is set on the non-human side. Sonic Colours is set on the non-human side. The only human in the game is Dr Eggman, who tries to build this huge amusement park which, as you will see on the world map, ties all these planets together with a tractor beam.

Game Informer's Brian Shea: It used to be that Eggman was the sole human. Starting with Sonic Adventure, we're seeing more and more humans show up in the stories. Where are they all coming from? 

Iizuka: The world that Sonic lives in and the world the humans live in are separate worlds. But, some of the canon games do have Sonic and humans together, and part of that is based on what world is being portrayed when the game is developed. There are kind of different worlds that do exist and sometimes there's some crossover.

I said this before but "world" can mean a lot of different things. For example, in real life there are "First World" countries and "Third World" countries ("Second World" died with the Soviet Union). It could be a region with some sort of similarity like the "English speaking world." A single person is described as having a world they live in (for ex the phrase "their whole world just came crashing down"). In Super Mario's canon, Mario goes through many "worlds" but never leaves his planet (unless he is going into outer space like in the Galaxy games). In fact the Mushroom Kingdom is the gateway into the greater Mushroom World.

So, unless I'm missing another Iizuka quote, the only Sega employee who has really said there are 2 planets is Aaron Webber, but he is only Sega of America's social media manager and not a part of Sonic Team and is thus not exactly the greatest source in what is canon.

And the only way for there to be this crossover as Iizuka talks about is for the different worlds to still exist on the same planet. So yea, not sold on this two entirely different worlds that a clear boundary must be crossed - until I get clearer verification, it is just one planet with many "worlds" on it

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I already went into my full thoughts on it, so I won't go into too much detail, but I'll say this.

It's stupid. All it does is unnecessarily overcomplicate things and create plotholes that shouldn't even really exist to begin with.
Seriously why can't we just simply steamline it to one world with both Humans and Anthros/Mobians instead of overcomplicating things to such a unnecessary degree.
Especially if there's gonna be cross over between the two worlds anyway? It's just unnecessary IMO.

But whatever, Sonic Team be Sonic Team.
 

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Honestly? I don't care. It's stupid. Yes. It creates Plot Holes. Yes. But I just don't care.

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18 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Isn't he supposed to be protecting earth, that's the question that will be asked every time he's in animal land.

You could I suppose assume that GUN have assigned him to keep an eye on Eggman sometimes when he goes back to Sonic's world - though to be honest, this isn't really much more of an issue than why Knuckles is in any given adventure rather than guarding the Master Emerald.

14 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

IMO, the biggest problem with the two worlds thing is the presence of Angel Island. It exists both in the human world and the anthro world. I've heard users say it crosses between both worlds. Pfft! Wouldn't that mean Angel Island would have to stay in each world for an extended period of time?

Not necessarily; it just depends how often the island's flight path intersects with the gateway - it could cross worlds every month, every week, or longer or shorter. Even if it was there for longer rather than shorter periods, it shouldn't be too much of a problem from a plot perspective as the time jump between games is sufficiently vague that the writers can have the island always be wherever they need it to be.

14 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Also, how did Professor Gerald know exactly how to make Shadow look like the anthro hedgehogs of Sonic's world without interacting with them if they're in separate worlds?

He was able to interact with them - Gerald is able to cross between worlds too, just like the rest of the cast (and indeed anyone on either planet) if they choose to.

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54 minutes ago, Nestor said:

You could I suppose assume that GUN have assigned him to keep an eye on Eggman sometimes when he goes back to Sonic's world - though to be honest, this isn't really much more of an issue than why Knuckles is in any given adventure rather than guarding the Master Emerald.

1) Gun never assigns them to eggman, like ever. Especially in the comics even in the debut game they spend more time trying to frame sonic for their crimes than actually giving half a shit about what eggman is doing. So for them to now give a shit about Eggman in another world, seems HELLA weird. Shadow's investigations into what eggman was doing or caring what he was up to was kinda all him. Even now. 

2) That's actually different because, while yes knuckles is guarding a thing. The thing is generally in one place and you can make the argument " well he's proactively guarding a thing " . I don't really think shadow investigating eggman or anyone in this world is really proactively protecting earth considering you have to go through a whole lot of fuckery to even get between worlds. And it doesn't seem like eggman bothered to try and take that world over again...if he ever did. Two worlds makes canon weird. But that's not even like, the issue, the issue is that he promised maria to protect earth. Which means different to him I would imagine. The protect earth made sense when it was a single world, but now its two worlds I don't see why shadow would care outside of extremely grand situations where they literally need to call in a favor. Which explains things like forces. But shadow's a popular character and I assume especially when more books media in general come into play he'll be around for a lot of situations that aren't really massive though it would explain away most games. They are gonna have to at some point explain why shadow isn't doing that thing he promised that one person he cared about a lot he promised to do. Or , like I think they are gonna do ( now sooner than later ) sort of retcon shadow's... entire everything. 

 

54 minutes ago, Nestor said:

He was able to interact with them - Gerald is able to cross between worlds too, just like the rest of the cast (and indeed anyone on either planet) if they choose to.

Why? Like at least when it was one world you could suggest " oh hey i found some ruins " or some shit. Like how did even know at this point to make shadow a hedgehog. 

But again, I think this is sort of pointless, I gotta funny feeling. Shadow is gonna get hit hard with a retcon or reboot bat sooner than later

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5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

1) Gun never assigns them to eggman, like ever.

Wasn't that how Shadow's story in '06 started? They had Rouge investigating Eggman, she got caught, so they sent Shadow in to bust her out?

5 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But that's not even like, the issue, the issue is that he promised maria to protect earth. Which means different to him I would imagine. The protect earth made sense when it was a single world, but now its two worlds I don't see why shadow would care outside of extremely grand situations where they literally need to call in a favor.

Do you really think the promise was meant to mean "protect this one planet and nothing else"?

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13 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

 

Game.com's Mark Scott: Could you tell us a bit about the story behind Sonic Colours? It looks more like the old games, which were set on Moebius, than the new-style Sonics set in Station Square...

Iizuka: We have two different worlds for Sonic games – one is human, and one is set on the non-human side. Sonic Colours is set on the non-human side. The only human in the game is Dr Eggman, who tries to build this huge amusement park which, as you will see on the world map, ties all these planets together with a tractor beam.

 

Gonna go ahead and highlight that part.

13 hours ago, Darth InVaders said:

In fact the Mushroom Kingdom is the gateway into the greater Mushroom World.

I remember wracking my brain trying to figure out what the hell that meant.

1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

5ada2dfd73f33_SonicWorlds.thumb.jpg.a10de0b62baf740267990f89ad8913cb.jpg

Conclusion: Iizuka is full of shit.

Some of those games clearly didn't happen in the human world.

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1 hour ago, Bowbowis said:

5ada2dfd73f33_SonicWorlds.thumb.jpg.a10de0b62baf740267990f89ad8913cb.jpg

Conclusion: Iizuka is full of shit.

Advance 2 is in human world (Sky Canyon is part of Angel Island), Forces is also possibly tied in by Team Dark and Little Planet. 

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4 minutes ago, Almar said:

Sonic Adventure 2's lore documents certainly don't mention another planet.

Lore documents...?

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57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Wasn't that how Shadow's story in '06 started? They had Rouge investigating Eggman, she got caught, so they sent Shadow in to bust her out?

I believe it is, and then it immediately became not that. And gun sort of stops caring or mattering. 

57 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Do you really think the promise was meant to mean "protect this one planet and nothing else"?

Nah, but outside of extraneous situations, he should be protecting earth. Because that's the promise that he made, also his job.

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No, I don't agree with the idea of the "two worlds", and not just because how dumb it is or overcomplicated things that never needed an explanation in the first place as it was just ST trying different art styles and themes. No, I disagree with it because it is the result of ST overreacting to the flak that they themselves created by being inconsistent, which also explains many other things like why the need to bring back Classic Sonic and treating it as it being a different dimension.

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2 hours ago, Almar said:

Also, cut dialogue calls the planet the game is on Earth.

Why bother digging into cut dialogue? The planet is referred to as Earth plenty of times in the game proper. A few examples:

Maria: "Shadow, what do you think it's like on Earth?"

Eggman: "Citizens of Earth, lend me your ears and listen very carefully!"

Rouge: "The space colony ARK is currently approaching the Earth at an incredible velocity."

Gerald: "This is a death sentence for every human being on Earth." 

Knuckles: "We've stopped the Chaos Emeralds, why is the space colony still on a crash course to Earth?"

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2 hours ago, Almar said:

The Truth Of 50 Years Ago

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=37417&st=0

Translation here.

Also, cut dialogue calls the planet the game is on Earth.

Huh. Interesting.

Also,...

9 minutes ago, Bowbowis said:

Why bother digging into cut dialogue? The planet is referred to as Earth plenty of times in the game proper. A few examples:

Maria: "Shadow, what do you think it's like on Earth?"

Eggman: "Citizens of Earth, lend me your ears and listen very carefully!"

Rouge: "The space colony ARK is currently approaching the Earth at an incredible velocity."

Gerald: "This is a death sentence for every human being on Earth." 

Knuckles: "We've stopped the Chaos Emeralds, why is the space colony still on a crash course to Earth?"

Earth IS the human world.

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22 hours ago, Sean said:

Maybe Sonic Forces itself is the other dimension

Why not? It's not like anything important would've been lost if it was.

But lets just call the two worlds cannon what it is. it's just something they came up with because they didn't or couldn't figure out how to tie all these varying tonal shifts and art directions.

 

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9 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

5ada2dfd73f33_SonicWorlds.thumb.jpg.a10de0b62baf740267990f89ad8913cb.jpg

Conclusion: Iizuka is full of shit.

In Sonic X Angel Island moved between Earth and Mobius.

If we assume it was somewhat based on cannon, this graph falls apart like a card pyramid.

Also I question Little Planet connections to SA1 (smalll reference) and Mania (illusions and dimensional travel being canon powers of Phantom Ruby)

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