Do you aggree with the Two-worlds??

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

 

Also Sonic Lost World's over the top classic design.

To be fair, the Lost Hex is it's own, under explained setting.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

The whole “two worlds” thing is deeply unappealing as a setting for these games. I’m inclined to believe the only reason this was established was to put a clumsy bandaid on the series’ total disregard for location continuity of any kind. That alone is a problem, but their solution is worse. Frankly, Iizuka-san’s willingness to go with such a hand-wave explanation speaks volumes about Sonic Team’s creative regard for Sonic’s universe to begin with. Or to put it another way, they don’t really seem to give a shit. 

Compare this to how Sonic is treated in the West. Clear, unabashed love for the character and his world, boundless enthusiasm and creativity, and just people in charge who get it. I’m not saying Western developers are inherently better than Japanese, but as far as Sonic is concerned, that’s how it looks. 

[Marco9966]

Deleted

 

[DabigRG]

13 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

 

Compare this to how Sonic is treated in the West. Clear, unabashed love for the character and his world, boundless enthusiasm and creativity, and just people in charge who get it. I’m not saying Western developers are inherently better than Japanese, but as far as Sonic is concerned, that’s how it looks. 

To be fair, Sonic was explicitly designed to cater to the American audience more so than the Japanese.

[Marco9966]

Just now, DabigRG said:

To be fair, Sonic was explicitly designed to cater to the American audience more so than the Japanese.

If only the Japanese cared for their own work and the stories they wrote themselves. They should write stories that the love to write and be proud of and be passionate about it! SA1-2 are the best example, the writers put their soul into these works (just look at the interview with the SA2 writer). #GetMaekawaBack

[Scape]

Do I agree with the Two-worlds?

No, I hate it. At best it's something else for Sonic fans to bicker over, and at worst, it's another nail in the coffin for the possibility of franchise consolidation.

Why couldn't "Sonic's World" just be a version of Earth where humans were the majority, and Anthros like Sonic and pals were descendant from  "realistic" animals that mutated at some point?

[Almar]

Two-Worldd is one example of a wider problem of Sonic Team's unwillingness to hold the series to rules in not just gameplay, but also tone, visuals, and lore. Complain all you will about how Nintendo does things, but they've been careful about making sure that its flagship franchises (Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Animal Crossing) either have strict tonal and visual directions or revel in chaos. When it comes to lore and character usage in Mario, Miyamoto from all evidence has been more hands off with it compared to how Sonic Team's been doing it even with the Koopaling Retcon (going out of his way to note that it's the "current" story, effective admitting to a retcon, and not going out of his way to impose harshly on how other developers handle Mario lore and characterization beyond the obvious).

[Silvereyes]

I can't say I like it. I mean, it just screams of being slapdash explanation, and all it does is limit the world, in an odd way. Sure, having 2 planets theoretically has more possibilities than 1, but it just feels more limiting having a Mobius and Earth like in Sonic X, rather than just 1 planet where humans and animals co-exist, or exist on seperate planets.

It's the same problem I have with the Hyper Emeralds in the classic side being non-canon or male Hedgehogs apparently being the only ones to be able to go super, it just feels more limiting rather than interesting.

(Although as a side note. Does that mean if Sonic '06 takes place on Earth, the theme song "His World" is actually inaccurate?)

[Marco9966]

47 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

I can't say I like it. I mean, it just screams of being slapdash explanation, and all it does is limit the world, in an odd way. Sure, having 2 planets theoretically has more possibilities than 1, but it just feels more limiting having a Mobius and Earth like in Sonic X, rather than just 1 planet where humans and animals co-exist, or exist on seperate planets.

It's the same problem I have with the Hyper Emeralds in the classic side being non-canon or male Hedgehogs apparently being the only ones to be able to go super, it just feels more limiting rather than interesting.

(Although as a side note. Does that mean if Sonic '06 takes place on Earth, the theme song "His World" is actually inaccurate?)

Why inaccurate?

[Silvereyes]

3 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Why inaccurate?

Because the song is about Sonic and how it is his world. But if Sonic '06 takes place on a different planet, it isn't literally his world. Sorry, I'm being very pedantic.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, silvereye27 said:

Because the song is about Sonic and how it is his world. But if Sonic '06 takes place on a different planet, it isn't literally his world. Sorry, I'm being very pedantic.

To be fair, the song is "his world", not "Za Warudo", "This World", or "The World This Game Takes Place In Is His World"

The song refers to "this world" and "his world", but doesn't directly say that His World and This World are the same world. Maybe Sonic's World and the Human World are very similar. Or perhaps Sonic has even adopted "this world" as another world of his to defend from danger

[Kazhnuz]

Or maybe than "his world" is metaphorical, like the song is heavily implying ? I mean, what is the song talking about, a description of a planet ? It doesn't seems so, most of the song is about explaining how work a character (that is obvious to be Sonic… what's fun is the song shows an hyper dynamic and "cool" Sonic, in the game where Sonic is maybe the most boring quiet xD). Even if some instance of "this world" are maybe talking about a world, like " Because the pressures of this world make you take their toll", most are talking about the psychological world of the character. For instance : « He's like the runnin' man, in his world more is less ». The whole song play on this ambiguïty, of the world outside, and the world inside Sonic.

So nope, I don't think that the two-world retcon (because yes, I think that's still at least a bit of a retcon, like every construction of a world for the franchise would be) make the song "inaccurate", because it's not what the song is talking about.

 

TBH, if we go trying to tie every line of the song with a "world theory", the end of the refrain says "In his world of worlds", so we could say that it was already two-world and it's talking about the different world Sonic is visiting :V (I don't believe it, it's just that I've always found that line funny)

[Marco9966]

3 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Or maybe than "his world" is metaphorical, like the song is heavily implying ? I mean, what is the song talking about, a description of a planet ? It doesn't seems so, most of the song is about explaining how work a character (that is obvious to be Sonic… what's fun is the song shows an hyper dynamic and "cool" Sonic, in the game where Sonic is maybe the most boring quiet xD). Even if some instance of "this world" are maybe talking about a world, like " Because the pressures of this world make you take their toll", most are talking about the psychological world of the character. For instance : « He's like the runnin' man, in his world more is less ». The whole song play on this ambiguïty, of the world outside, and the world inside Sonic.

So nope, I don't think that the two-world retcon (because yes, I think that's still at least a bit of a retcon, like every construction of a world for the franchise would be) make the song "inaccurate", because it's not what the song is talking about.

 

TBH, if we go trying to tie every line of the song with a "world theory", the end of the refrain says "In his world of worlds", so we could say that it was already two-world and it's talking about the different world Sonic is visiting :V (I don't believe it, it's just that I've always found that line funny)

I'm waiting for the day when Iizuka re-retcons everything to one-world because that's what the majority of fans want, and the majority is angry at the two-world.

[Kazhnuz]

It could be nice if you quoted only the point you are answering, but I had trouble at first to see why you quoted me in the first place as your answer didn't seems to have anything to do with what I was saying xD (then I saw the small not-really-important point you were answering at).

 

I'm not 100% sure it's Iizuka that retconned it himself, but that most in the ST (or most that actually care about the world organisation in the ST) are now for this way of seeing their world (TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if they were a lot of "Sonic X" veteran in the ST, with stuff like references of it in Sonic Channel's comics and stuff . To be honest, maybe that even in the day, they didn't agree about their world and that it's why it have always been a mess. Especially as some element in Sonic Forces were made with Two World in mind (like the fake-letters thing). That's why I don't believe in the "Iizuka pulled that from nowhere" thing.

He said the thing, but it's difficult to know exactly how it worked inside (as it seems to have influenced the games themselves, and that it's not the only place where there is a "Sonic X" influence.)

[Marco9966]

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

It could be nice if you quoted only the point you are answering, but I had trouble at first to see why you quoted me in the first place as your answer didn't seems to have anything to do with what I was saying xD (then I saw the small not-really-important point you were answering at).

 

I'm not 100% sure it's Iizuka that retconned it himself, but that most in the ST (or most that actually care about the world organisation in the ST) are now for this way of seeing their world (TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if they were a lot of "Sonic X" veteran in the ST, with stuff like references of it in Sonic Channel's comics and stuff . To be honest, maybe that even in the day, they didn't agree about their world and that it's why it have always been a mess. Especially as some element in Sonic Forces were made with Two World in mind (like the fake-letters thing). That's why I don't believe in the "Iizuka pulled that from nowhere" thing.

He said the thing, but it's difficult to know exactly how it worked inside (as it seems to have influenced the games themselves, and that it's not the only place where there is a "Sonic X" influence.)

Yeah I saw the interview with  the guy who insisted on using made-up letters to  push his two-worlds agenda. I wish he'd fully explain how the two-worlds work instead of throwing in some half-assed made up letters in the background.

[Kazhnuz]

They didn't "insist" (they don't say in the interview that they had to fight to make them), it seemed natural for the people that worked on that part of a game. Remember that not everybody works on everything in a game xD This is that the background artist liked. Like the people working on the anniversary thing thought that it was natural to have the Chaotix inside their Sonic X house. They aren't "pushing an agenda", they are just working with what they are thinking (and I think that if Iizuka talked about two-world and haven't changed his mind in 7 years, it's that they are already most of the people who care about the world of Sonic, so they don't have to "push" anything xD).

It show more that some background artist(s) thought that it would be nice to have that kind of thing in the game, as it's supposed to be in the "animal world". To be honest, it show more that some people care in the Sonic Team. Sadly, it's not the writers, that would be nice for the characters :V (I loved so much the small comic-book released for the anniversary, they were really nice).

It's not up to the same people that work on background element to explain how the two worlds works, but I really agree that it would be nice if Sonic Team explained how it works. Either in a game, or in an interview… My dream would be some kind of "Sonic Encyclopedia" a bit like the Sonic Comic Encyclopedia of Archie. They could even do it in collaboration with IDW, basically giving them all the needed info, letting them do the work (Flynn writing the actual text and IDW paying the interior artist) and validating the final product (what they are already doing with the comic-book). For the moment, only Webber gave an explanation about some stuff (but we don't know if it's an educated guess or that he saw some new internal documents. I'm more leaning on "educated guess", because we don't have for the moment anybody else who said the same. I'm waiting to see if it'll be the same in the comic-book, as it will be at least to people who say/use that).

[Marco9966]

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

They didn't "insist" (they don't say in the interview that they had to fight to make them), it seemed natural for the people that worked on that part of a game. Remember that not everybody works on everything in a game xD This is that the background artist liked. Like the people working on the anniversary thing thought that it was natural to have the Chaotix inside their Sonic X house. They aren't "pushing an agenda", they are just working with what they are thinking (and I think that if Iizuka talked about two-world and haven't changed his mind in 7 years, it's that they are already most of the people who care about the world of Sonic, so they don't have to "push" anything xD).

It show more that some background artist(s) thought that it would be nice to have that kind of thing in the game, as it's supposed to be in the "animal world". To be honest, it show more that some people care in the Sonic Team. Sadly, it's not the writers, that would be nice for the characters :V (I loved so much the small comic-book released for the anniversary, they were really nice).

It's not up to the same people that work on background element to explain how the two worlds works, but I really agree that it would be nice if Sonic Team explained how it works. Either in a game, or in an interview… My dream would be some kind of "Sonic Encyclopedia" a bit like the Sonic Comic Encyclopedia of Archie. They could even do it in collaboration with IDW, basically giving them all the needed info, letting them do the work (Flynn writing the actual text and IDW paying the interior artist) and validating the final product (what they are already doing with the comic-book). For the moment, only Webber gave an explanation about some stuff (but we don't know if it's an educated guess or that he saw some new internal documents. I'm more leaning on "educated guess", because we don't have for the moment anybody else who said the same. I'm waiting to see if it'll be the same in the comic-book, as it will be at least to people who say/use that).

I think IDW will do an encyclopedia once there's enough issues (in 10 years???). It will include all game lore explanations since the IDW comics take fully place after the games.

[Kazhnuz]

I don't know if IDW Publishing makes that kind of bonus, though. xD  It would be nice, but I suppose that it happening is also tied about how much there is a demand for that kind of thing.

[DabigRG]

On 8/12/2018 at 12:33 PM, Marco9966 said:

If only the Japanese cared for their own work and the stories they wrote themselves. They should write stories that the love to write and be proud of and be passionate about it! SA1-2 are the best example, the writers put their soul into these works (just look at the interview with the SA2 writer). #GetMaekawaBack

I thought that was written in America? Or is that Shadow's Game I'm thinking of?

On 8/12/2018 at 2:11 PM, Scape said:

 

Why couldn't "Sonic's World" just be a version of Earth where humans were the majority, and Anthros like Sonic and pals were descendant from  "realistic" animals that mutated at some point?

It was.

19 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

Because the song is about Sonic and how it is his world. But if Sonic '06 takes place on a different planet, it isn't literally his world. Sorry, I'm being very pedantic.

Yeah, I realized that the other day. 

6 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Especially as some element in Sonic Forces were made with Two World in mind (like the fake-letters thing). That's why I don't believe in the "Iizuka pulled that from nowhere" thing.

He said the thing, but it's difficult to know exactly how it worked inside (as it seems to have influenced the games themselves, and that it's not the only place where there is a "Sonic X" influence.)

What letters now?

 

[Almar]

You don't need to bring up a song to show 06 is at odds with Two-Worlds. Just having Silver being in a future and destroyed form of Elise's country points otherwise. Doubly so when you include Sonic Rivals and how that has him from the same future as Eggman Nega (a human).

[Kazhnuz]

Having two separate world doesn't mean "every character only come from Sonic World", especially when it happens 200 years in the future. (especially as Eggman Nega is a descendant from Eggman, and have two origins :V)

[Almar]

Nobody mentions Silver or Nega being an immigrant in the future. Especailly Silver even speaks like he grew up among the burning wreckage. Sonic Rivals has Nega bring a future Angel Island with him into the past also.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

You don't need to bring up a song to show 06 is at odds with Two-Worlds. Just having Silver being in a future and destroyed form of Elise's country points otherwise. 

His parents live[d] and had him in what used to be Soleanna.

Done.

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

Having two separate world doesn't mean "every character only come from Sonic World", especially when it happens 200 years in the future. (especially as Eggman Nega is a descendant from Eggman, and have two origins :V)

Not anymore--he is officially from the future and traveled across time & space.

5 minutes ago, Almar said:

Sonic Rivals has Nega bring a future Angel Island with him into the past also.

Angel Island traveled across locations anyway and just ended up crashing into...wherever that part of Rivals takes place.

[Darth InVaders]

On 8/12/2018 at 7:06 PM, silvereye27 said:

Because the song is about Sonic and how it is his world. But if Sonic '06 takes place on a different planet, it isn't literally his world. Sorry, I'm being very pedantic.

Every time I hear that I think of this

[Nestor]

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Nobody mentions Silver or Nega being an immigrant in the future. Especailly Silver even speaks like he grew up among the burning wreckage.

Silver could have simply been born on Earth. Or he could have moved to Earth (or been stranded there) early in life. It not being explicitly mentioned doesn't mean that it's impossible to happen within the setting.