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Marco9966

Do you aggree with the Two-worlds??

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39 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Remember guys, Sonic 2006 never happened. 0 events there are canon. 

Sonic Rivals happened instead. And we've got the future Angel island there. 

And the "Eggman Nega confusion" (the game have some confusing things, like this or the transcendental properties of the Master Emerald, as that when it's transformed into a card in the future, it's like that in every time period xD) Because having it only with Blaze in 2006 would have been a shame :ok_hand: And even if the event of 2006 aren't canon, the game exist somehow (think of it like a separate timeline that have been erased) and its locations exist.

More seriously, we've got only Future Angel island though, as all the game happens on Onyx Island (except the end on the orbital station whatever). It doesn't really make the game useful to understand more the universe. xD (but I like self-contained games like that, they are nice).

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17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, '06 is canon, it's just that the timeline where most of it happened ceased to exist.

In order to forget the '06 abomination we must not think of its place in the canon anymore.

Why not take this opportunity, as it is so convenient too because the game erased itself and its bestiality plots and its Blaze origin butchering, and its Eggman design butchering and its photorealistic humans-instead-of-cartoony butchering.

 

At least with Rivals, we get a better story, and we get to keep Silver, the only good thing about '06.

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Even if 06 isn't great, not everything is to forget in the game. It added ideas like Shadow in GUN (not really Team Dark in GUN though, as Omega is mostly a free agent in this game), the addition of Shadow's inhibitor in the game, and IIRC it was the first game when the writer of Sonic Unleashed worked (and so the start of this more laidback, friendly Sonic that I liked in Unleashed, even if in 06 it wasn't really done). TBH I'm not for "forgetting" bad games. They still have ideas that could be used in a good way in future stories (or even some gameplay idea that well done could work better. I would really love a game that try to take the Lost World gameplay and makes it better)

And I'm not sure that Rivals is that much better in the scenario department. It's easier to forgive it because its plot is way less serious, but we had things like Eggman Nega not being from another dimension but from the future (yep, let's do it again after having done that with Blaze xD) and the Master Emerald turned into a card in every timeframe, that is really complexe to have with the different game (if you just think of it, it's really confusing. Does that mean that during the plot of Rivals, the "new past" is that the Master Emerald was a card during Sonic 3, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2… ?). Not to mention that the "card" scenario, even if for me that's good enough for a "small game" like that, it wasn't the best exemple of great writing, and was pretty kitch xD

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1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

Even if 06 isn't great, not everything is to forget in the game. It added ideas like Shadow in GUN (not really Team Dark in GUN though, as Omega is mostly a free agent in this game), the addition of Shadow's inhibitor in the game, and IIRC it was the first game when the writer of Sonic Unleashed worked (and so the start of this more laidback, friendly Sonic that I liked in Unleashed, even if in 06 it wasn't really done). TBH I'm not for "forgetting" bad games. They still have ideas that could be used in a good way in future stories (or even some gameplay idea that well done could work better. I would really love a game that try to take the Lost World gameplay and makes it better)

And I'm not sure that Rivals is that much better in the scenario department. It's easier to forgive it because its plot is way less serious, but we had things like Eggman Nega not being from another dimension but from the future (yep, let's do it again after having done that with Blaze xD) and the Master Emerald turned into a card in every timeframe, that is really complexe to have with the different game (if you just think of it, it's really confusing. Does that mean that during the plot of Rivals, the "new past" is that the Master Emerald was a card during Sonic 3, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2… ?). Not to mention that the "card" scenario, even if for me that's good enough for a "small game" like that, it wasn't the best exemple of great writing, and was pretty kitch xD

Yeah, Rivals 2 had a better story I think

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Eggman Nega being from the future is the rare situation where a retcon in Sonic was for the better. Compared to Blaze (her world's Sonic) Eggman Nega is too similar to his counterpart in Sonic's world.

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

His parents live[d] and had him in what used to be Soleanna.

Done.

It was centuries into the future. This requires there to be a presence of anthro communitiess in the Human World with no mention of easy portals or space travel.

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Angel Island traveled across locations anyway and just ended up crashing into...wherever that part of Rivals takes place.

Since when did Angel Island travel between worlds? It's a floating island. Not a spacesphip.

12 hours ago, Nestor said:

Silver could have simply been born on Earth. Or he could have moved to Earth (or been stranded there) early in life. It not being explicitly mentioned doesn't mean that it's impossible to happen within the setting.

Since this scenario is only being considered from a retcon Iizuka suddenly declared, I wouldn't put stock in it.

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11 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

TBH I'm not for "forgetting" bad games. They still have ideas that could be used in a good way in future stories (or even some gameplay idea that well done could work better. I would really love a game that try to take the Lost World gameplay and makes it better)

Yeah, pretty much. The majority of a lot of the things people consider bad or at least not that good can in fact be done better.

It's just a little too bad it couldn't have been done good to begin with.

11 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

the Master Emerald turned into a card in every timeframe, that is really complexe to have with the different game (if you just think of it, it's really confusing. Does that mean that during the plot of Rivals, the "new past" is that the Master Emerald was a card during Sonic 3, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2… ?). Not to mention that the "card" scenario, even if for me that's good enough for a "small game" like that, it wasn't the best exemple of great writing, and was pretty kitch xD

...Wait, what....

1 hour ago, Almar said:

Eggman Nega being from the future is the rare situation where a retcon in Sonic was for the better. Compared to Blaze (her world's Sonic) Eggman Nega is too similar to his counterpart in Sonic's world.

Not to mention making the character much more intriguing and tying the future in a bit to be more relevant to the main timeline.

1 hour ago, Almar said:

It was centuries into the future. This requires there to be a presence of anthro communitiess in the Human World with no mention of easy portals or space travel.

 

This is a Sonic game.

In context, one where time travel basically amounts to hoping into a floating beam of light from a simultaneous Chaos Control and there were fugging mirrors to the beach & the desert in the present.

1 hour ago, Almar said:

 

Since when did Angel Island travel between worlds? It's a floating island. Not a spacesphip.

Since Sega said so.

Also, since Eggman did the Genesis Wave. Twice?

And since Dr Nega took a picture of it in the future. ...Wait...

 

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2 hours ago, Almar said:

It was centuries into the future. This requires there to be a presence of anthro communitiess in the Human World with no mention of easy portals or space travel.

I don't think there needs to be a whole anthro community on Earth for Silver's parents to have been on Earth - after all, the main cast travel between worlds seemingly without difficulty (and indeed, the possibility exists that one or more of the main cast are Silver's ancestors).

2 hours ago, Almar said:

Since when did Angel Island travel between worlds? It's a floating island. Not a spacesphip.

The island's been present in both Sonic's world games (e.g. the classics) and Earth games (e.g. Sonic Adventure), and we know it's mobile and travels (it's in the middle of an ocean in S&K and by the coast in SA) - as we don't yet know the nature of the 'gateway' between worlds, it seems likely that the island's travel periodically takes it through whatever mechanism connects the worlds.

2 hours ago, Almar said:

Since this scenario is only being considered from a retcon Iizuka suddenly declared, I wouldn't put stock in it.

Why not? It would seem to be a logical explanation based on what we do know of the current continuity, such as it is; it being required due to a retcon shouldn't make it less likely or valid.

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

...Wait, what....

« Eggman: Fine! If you want to know so badly, I'll tell you! I turned the Master Emerald into a card using my camera by taking a picture of it from the future Angel Island. Since the Master Emerald is a unique object that exists across the time-space continuum... When the future emerald was turned into a card, its existence in all the time frames vanished as well. »

To quote Knuckles about that :  « Gah, it just doesn't make any sense! » xD

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8 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

« Eggman: Fine! If you want to know so badly, I'll tell you! I turned the Master Emerald into a card using my camera by taking a picture of it from the future Angel Island. Since the Master Emerald is a unique object that exists across the time-space continuum... When the future emerald was turned into a card, its existence in all the time frames vanished as well. »

To quote Knuckles about that :  « Gah, it just doesn't make any sense! » xD

Yeah, seriously.

Like, the Solaris-esque everpresentness sorta makes sense and yet doesn't make enough. Since when does doing something in the future cause ripple effects in time travel?

 

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7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

This is a Sonic game.

In context, one where time travel basically amounts to hoping into a floating beam of light from a simultaneous Chaos Control and there were fugging mirrors to the beach & the desert in the present.

Putting aside 06's bad writing and the series' segregation between plot and gameplay, the series until about Colors (which is when the Two-Worlds retcon was announced) was solid on time travel not being that easy and depending on special circumstances (it's not like just anybody can Chaos Control). Same goes for dimension travel.

7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Since Sega said so.

So midichlorians?

7 hours ago, Nestor said:

I don't think there needs to be a whole anthro community on Earth for Silver's parents to have been on Earth - after all, the main cast travel between worlds seemingly without difficulty (and indeed, the possibility exists that one or more of the main cast are Silver's ancestors).

We don't know who of Sonic's posse survived Iblis awakening and later rampage in the Bad Timeline long enough to have children. And we haven't seen them do this travel between worlds. That's a problem.

20 hours ago, Nestor said:

The island's been present in both Sonic's world games (e.g. the classics) and Earth games (e.g. Sonic Adventure), and we know it's mobile and travels (it's in the middle of an ocean in S&K and by the coast in SA) - as we don't yet know the nature of the 'gateway' between worlds, it seems likely that the island's travel periodically takes it through whatever mechanism connects the worlds.

Sonic Adventure established that the Echidnas lived in the same world as humans before Angel Island went skyward.

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5 hours ago, Almar said:

Sonic Adventure established that the Echidnas lived in the same world as humans before Angel Island went skyward.

Not much of a "human world," then.  If one anthro community is allowed to emerge there, why do the rest have to be shuffled off to a second planet?  Of course, the casual manner in which the off-screen and unmentioned portal lets the anthro characters freely mingle with humans in multiple games now also demonstrates the pointlessness of the measure.

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Of course it looks pointless. The retcon was only done in response to the backlash against human characters like Elise, combined with the Adventure era's overall backlash (with its tone and visuals). There's no doubt that if Elise or GUN Commander with their games were much better received we wouldn't have gotten the retcon.

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12 minutes ago, Almar said:

Of course it looks pointless. The retcon was only done in response to the backlash against human characters like Elise, combined with the Adventure era's overall backlash (with its tone and visuals). There's no doubt that if Elise or GUN Commander with their games were much better received we wouldn't have gotten the retcon.

Elise is the worst Sonic character. It would have been better if she looked like Unleashed humans.

I wish unleashed designer worked on '06

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22 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Elise is the worst Sonic character. It would have been better if she looked like Unleashed humans.

I wish unleashed designer worked on '06

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While Unleashed was a step in the right direction, IMO what human characters should really look like in Sonic...

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No neck, tube arms that are wider at wrists and ankles, maybe some crazy anime hair for some

But simplified a bit (this guy has way too much going on in his clothes)

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21 hours ago, silvereye27 said:

It sounds like what happens in the Star Trek: The Next Generation series finale. Not that it really makes sense in anyway.

Actually it more works like the next generation episode "Parallels" as the timeline in "All good things" is mostly linear although we know the Enterprise D does not exist in the future (making it a possible future the next generation crew would have as Data is still alive as well)

In Parallels Worf jumped between many alternate realities, perhaps not alternate timelines or dimensions (that would be Sliders territory)

Trust me I am a sci fi nerd and you know what I am actually fine with alternate realities and alternate dimensions, heck I like the idea of Sonic having alternate worlds as yes that would solve the issue of what is considered canon and non canon.

The problem is that in forces the idea that classic Sonic comes from another dimension came out of flipping nowhere.

No explanation especially when in generations we had the frigging Time Eater, meaning that this all came out of someones ass.

And that is my issue here, so far you have not resorted to using alternate timelines (sans Sonic 06) in your main universe so why do it now?

Oh wait you needed an excuse to hand wave at the audience thats why.

Ugh that is why i call bull on the matter, it would have been better if that was always the case and established earlier but it comes out of nowhere.

Again This sort of thing I usually can get behind as it opens the door to good speculative fiction but in this case its just a random ass pull to explain something that really did not need explaining.

It just makes Sega look even more incompetent then they already are.

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On 8/15/2018 at 10:26 PM, Almar said:

We don't know who of Sonic's posse survived Iblis awakening and later rampage in the Bad Timeline long enough to have children.

Indeed - hence the possibility of one potentially being an ancestor.

On 8/15/2018 at 10:26 PM, Almar said:

And we haven't seen them do this travel between worlds. That's a problem.

We haven't witnessed the mechanism yet, but we do know it can be done - until (or if) additional detail are given about how the gateway works, there's no reason to assume that the travel is difficult until it's implied or stated to be.

On 8/15/2018 at 10:26 PM, Almar said:

Sonic Adventure established that the Echidnas lived in the same world as humans before Angel Island went skyward.

Indeed - but it's the activity of Angel Island after it goes skyward that determines its ability to travel between worlds; as it's been shown moving geographic location to and from its initial starting position in the Mystic Ruins, it's a possibility that its flight path travels through the 'gateway' and allows it to swap between worlds.

Of course, we've had such a dearth of information about the gateway mechanism that it could be almost anything, but until they actually clarify it further, this theory is a possible explanation.

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It's putting a band-aid on a gaping and rotten wound. The games prior to Unleashed obviously weren't designed with Two-Worlds in mind, regardless of what someone like Ian Flynn says. Having to appeal to some offscreen never mentioned portal or spaceship just shows how forced the order is and how it roots in poor reception towards characters like Elise and games like Shadow the Edgehog.

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On 8/17/2018 at 3:29 PM, Almar said:

It's putting a band-aid on a gaping and rotten wound. The games prior to Unleashed obviously weren't designed with Two-Worlds in mind, regardless of what someone like Ian Flynn says. Having to appeal to some offscreen never mentioned portal or spaceship just shows how forced the order is and how it roots in poor reception towards characters like Elise and games like Shadow the Edgehog.

You're right - while there are potential explanations that would make sense with what's been revealed, they're cumbersome and inelegant from a storytelling perspective. SEGA should have decided on a backstory and stuck with it instead of this vaguely defined mess - indeed, despite having the idea of two worlds since at least Sonic Colors, they still haven't gotten around to defining it properly.

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If they had put it in the games proper, I would have been willing to accept it. But when dimensional or space travel wasn't so much as implied, and if anything, there were more implications that the human and animal world are one and the same, then sorry, can't say I buy it.

Even if it was intended as far back as Sonic Adventure, I'd argue there must have been some wires crossed somewhere along the way. And honestly, it would have been simpler to just run with what fans assumed at this point. The attempt at uncrossing wires came far too late for it to have a positive effect, I think.

If they intended it as far back as Sonic Adventure, they should have made it clear back in 1998 and established something. Doing it now when writers assuming otherwise were allowed to do so unchecked just makes more of a mess.

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On 8/14/2018 at 9:09 AM, Marco9966 said:

Remember guys, Sonic 2006 never happened. 0 events there are canon.

Sonic Rivals happened instead. And we've got the future Angel island there.

Way after the fact but been meaning to get to this for a while, but Sonic did still visit Soleanna for the festival even after the Flame of Hope was extinguished so Soleanna and Elise are still part of the world.

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19 hours ago, SurrealBrain said:

If they had put it in the games proper, I would have been willing to accept it. But when dimensional or space travel wasn't so much as implied, and if anything, there were more implications that the human and animal world are one and the same, then sorry, can't say I buy it.

Even if it was intended as far back as Sonic Adventure, I'd argue there must have been some wires crossed somewhere along the way. And honestly, it would have been simpler to just run with what fans assumed at this point. The attempt at uncrossing wires came far too late for it to have a positive effect, I think.

If they intended it as far back as Sonic Adventure, they should have made it clear back in 1998 and established something. Doing it now when writers assuming otherwise were allowed to do so unchecked just makes more of a mess.

There's an interview where Naka effectively said that the Genesis games happened outside of human society and that after them but before Adventure Sonic traveled to human land. It wasn't the case in Adventure (hence the Echidna Empire's ruins being in the same world as a human city).

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