Sonic the Platformer

[FeathersMcGraw]

I don't see why Sonic's speed has to be earned for no other reason than the fact that its his super power, his defining trait, and thus it should be naturally integrated into his repertoire. It's like saying one should have to earn the right to jump in Mario. Why? There are other ways of providing thrills--

Because it's a fundamental rule of game design? By rewarding the player with a gratifying sensation or ability after performing a certain in-game task or challenge, designers can give the player a sense of gratification and accomplishment, this is common across all games, notice how players in FPS's have to reach highly dangerous areas of the map to collect the more powerful weapons for example. It's a case of "Challenge>Reward>Gratification", helps to keep the player engrossed, interested and helps the reward in question (in this case speed) interesting and enjoyable. By giving the player a free ticket to go as fast as they want without consequence or challenge, it loses it's appeal.

The fact that it's Sonic's defining trait is irrelevant. Outlandish, stupidly powerful weapons could be considered the defining trait of games such as Doom and Duke Nukem (or even Ratchet & Clank), but the player has to work for them nonetheless, and the games are far more enjoyable in the long run for it.

Edited August 24, 2009 by FeathersMcGraw

[Blazey Firekitty]

This bigger problem SEGA's realized just seems to fall on deaf ears here. The kids don't want the speed. Sonic the name means more than just speed. It means sound. Maybe they should revisit Ohshima's original ideas and define the name Sonic to mean something other than a specific gameplay style which has multiple ideas put in per game that are optional.

Wasn't Black Knight kind of like this? I mean, it wasn't free roaming exploration based like the Werehog levels in Unleashed, but players earned Sonic's speed through experience points, there was no boost, and players often needed to slow down for combat purposes.

[Nepenthe]

What others said about level design is right. I've heard some comments about how great the scenery in Unleashed is, but how most players will speed by it all without a second look. I mean, what if there was a whole other area of the level behind those bushes? It could certainly be done, but it just blurs by in a game like Unleashed. The topic's kind of steered towards the open level discussion, but that's very relevant. The fastest way from A to B is a straight line, and Sonic's levels are mostly just that. From a developer's point of view, especially considering what was said about how long day levels took in Unleashed, wouldn't you want a player to spend more time in the world you created? Then Sonic shouldn't be worried about how fast he gets from A to B, as long as he does it in a speedy fashion, and as long as it's still fun. Platforming gimmicks give players that playground they'll want to spend more time in.

As linear as Unleashed is, if Sonic Team had wanted to throw in entirely separate parts of the levels that were just hanging around somewhere, then they probably wouldn't be tucked away under some bushes you'd need to go at a snail's pace to find. There would be a really noticeable fork in the path, some large floating platforms, and/or an obvious mode of transportation such as some rails, a bumper, or some boost rings that would get you to that area; Really, I think even Sonic Team would be smart enough to cater such exploration to the linearity of the game. I agree that every single thing is probably going to whiz by on the first playthrough, but that's always been the case for this series (at least for me), nor is Unleashed's boost even mandatory for the majority of the time anyways. As enticing as it is to use, you still have a choice in the matter of whether or not to mash down on X/Square. xP;;

Overall, I don't think this situation has to be as black and white as it seems, that linear strictly means one tiny path and that open-endedness means a huge playground, nor do I think linearity as an element, even to its extreme, should be chastised as a whole so long as the journey is made as exciting and fun as possible. All games have restrictions, and a restriction only feels like one if it significantly caters to a major degree of ennui the game might elicit. The old games were linear in that you had a point A and a point B in the first place, irregardless of their multiple paths, and indeed I beat them just fine by sticking to the main path. Giving me the option to explore is a bonus, not a goal. It rewards you sometimes, but it doesn't help you finish the game anymore than keeping to the main path will. I'd be foolishly willing to stick my neck out and argue that if you simplified the Classic games' level designs to only include one or two paths, you would objectively have nearly the exact same game.

Now on the subject of such a game's aesthetic qualities, I don't think it's mandatory to sacrifice such quality simply because the speed or pace of the game is fast or the levels are large. Good graphics and artistic value help build a believable world and even help guide a player through which in turn adds to the immersion. Indeed, the ability to create a convincing level is very important whether or not you need Epic Games-level manpower to do it. Sonic Unleashed is one of, if not the best looking 3D Sonic games I've ever seen, and I don't appreciate the team's effort any less because I'm tempted to speed by their work. Personally, Unleashed's art style is one of the first things I will applaud. Besides, we've arguably had ugly Sonic games before that were speedy, Sonic '06 being a major contender, and no one spared the aesthetics their wrath simply because a player would have been less inclined to take them in as opposed to a slower game.

Because it's a fundamental rule of game design? By rewarding the player with a gratifying sensation or ability after performing a certain in-game task or challenge, designers can give the player a sense of gratification and accomplishment, this is common across all games, notice how players in FPS's have to reach highly dangerous areas of the map to collect the more powerful weapons for example. It's a case of "Challenge>Reward>Gratification", helps to keep the player engrossed, interested and helps the reward in question (in this case speed) interesting and enjoyable. By giving the player a free ticket to go as fast as they want without consequence or challenge, it loses it's appeal.

The fact that it's Sonic's defining trait is irrelevant. Outlandish, stupidly powerful weapons could be considered the defining trait of games such as Doom and Duke Nukem (or even Ratchet & Clank), but the player has to work for them nonetheless, and the games are far more enjoyable in the long run for it.

You may have to earn the right to use overpowered weapons, but you don't have to earn the right to use your default automatic rifle, do you? You may need to gather ammo to keep it working, but no decent game designer is going to force you into D-Day with a knife before getting that quintessential rifle, just like no game designer is going to make you punch a certain number of goombas first before earning the right to make Mario perform a basic jump.

Having to earn basic abilities isn't appealing to me at all, and I do consider Sonic's speed a basic ability of the character because it is indeed his default superpower. It's his shtick, it's his thing, it goes a great length in defining who he is, and it being a major part of his character and a major compliment to his attacks is something Sega's been shoving down our throats for over eighteen years in the games and other mediums.

At this point in the game, I believe Sonic's speed should definitely be as default a tool as mere running, and the reward you earn in the gameplay with proper use of his speed is the exhilaration that comes with being able to keep up the pace for extended periods of time, using it strategically to reach hard-to-access paths, and using it to help with your attacks. Misuse of the speed will result in you throwing Sonic into a trap or off the level, or being unable to use it for long which in turn may result in difficulties destroying enemies, reaching certain areas, or even getting through the level swiftly and properly.

That right there is just fine a reward/punishment system for me. Speed itself doesn't always have to be the ultimate goal; Its duration and the rewards for using it properly to progress can very well serve the same purpose and provide the same satisfaction. I had a grand ol' time with this system in the day levels and feel that it can be expanded upon and perfected with simply a little bit of creative thought and effort (Eliminating the ease of use by simply limiting the number of rings and/or forcing the bar to be filled before the ability can be used is a start, I think). There's always tons of possibilities out there, and thus I see no reason why Sonic's abilities and potential need to be stunted anymore simply because we've had a different reward/punishment system in the past.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Nepenthe

[azoo]

Heh. So now we are basing what Sonic does around his name rather than basing Sonic off what he is. It's once again the fandom and their backwards thinking. Hate to sound rude, but the games Sonic != Sonic X Sonic, SatAM Sonic, AoSTH Sonic, Archie Sonic, Fleetway Sonic, Underground Sonic, or merchandise Sonic. Sonic is not a blue anthropomorphic version of the Flash. He's just a hedgehog that's pretty fast on feet and faster in a ball, and happens to depend on physics to aid his "superpower". Sheesh, guys.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

Heh. So now we are basing what Sonic does around his name rather than basing Sonic off what he is. It's once again the fandom and their backwards thinking. Hate to sound rude, but the games Sonic != Sonic X Sonic, SatAM Sonic, AoSTH Sonic, Archie Sonic, Fleetway Sonic, Underground Sonic, or merchandise Sonic. Sonic is not a blue anthropomorphic version of the Flash. He's just a hedgehog that's pretty fast on feet and faster in a ball, and happens to depend on physics to aid his "superpower". Sheesh, guys.

So by that logic, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Unleashed and Sonic 2006 aren't games? Because he has the ability to run super fast from a stand-still in all of those, so that analogy has been proven wrong already unfortunately.

Though ultimately the whole thing comes down to "it's a game". The only explanation I can give is he got better at running since the olden days.

[azoo]

I accidentally didn't finish my post. Lemme explain:

Sonic is indeed extremely fast (arguably "too fast") nowadays, because they're now only really depending on Sonic's aesthetic appeal ("hay guize looks I'ze fast c?"), and not under what made his gameplay, well I don't know, a game.

Sonic is a platformer, and although I understand what you were saying, Miko, but why must it be so spread out? I could understand to the third dimension-type of perspective, but I don't want to play a Sonic that is made up of 3D segments being so enlongated as a flat path.

[Nepenthe]

Heh. So now we are basing what Sonic does around his name rather than basing Sonic off what he is. It's once again the fandom and their backwards thinking. Hate to sound rude, but the games Sonic != Sonic X Sonic, SatAM Sonic, AoSTH Sonic, Archie Sonic, Fleetway Sonic, Underground Sonic, or merchandise Sonic. Sonic is not a blue anthropomorphic version of the Flash. He's just a hedgehog that's pretty fast on feet and faster in a ball, and happens to depend on physics to aid his "superpower". Sheesh, guys.

What Sonic is to you isn't what Sonic is to me. Sonic, to me, is indeed a hedgehog who has the uncanny ability to surpass the speed of sound on his feet and perform amazing acrobatic feats. As a result, I think this is something that should transfer to his current gameplay now that we have the technological capabilities to do so. I also believe that Sonic can play well in more than one way, the necessity of such possibilities irrelevant, and that his potential adaptability in gameplay styles can make him reach great heights.

Regardless of what I think, neither of our interpretations is wrong, and in fact I think that's part of the appeal of this franchise. However, it's come to the point where I wish people would stop making me feel that my opinions are wrong just because I don't entirely subscribe to the holy mantra that is the Classic games and have different tastes instead.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Nepenthe

[Arrow]

I could not agree with Azukara less and with Nepenthe more.

He's just a hedgehog that's pretty fast on feet and faster in a ball, and happens to depend on physics to aid his "superpower". Sheesh, guys. sleep.gif

This, is all well and good when in reference to the first game. But characters and stories evolve. I think you find that very hard to accept.

Sonic can run at the speed of sound. That is the fundamental thing that Sonic is, after being blue. What his acceleration rate is, I doubt the creators have even considered, but I'd like to think that it instantanious and wonderfully rediculously impossible.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Arrow

[azoo]

Wow, I feel like I'm being attack by "anti-retrofans" now. Sorry I got a little rambunctious about the stuff, but sheesh, I'm just trying to get to a point. 0_o

That said, I might as well not bother trying to explain anymore. V_V It's getting tiresome now..

Edited August 24, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

Wow, I feel like I'm being attack by "anti-retrofans" now.

We prefer to be called "Pro-development". =(

[Candescence]

Ya know, I'd propose a compromise with holding down a shoulder button to run ala Prototype to help control Sonic's speed so he can accelerate quickly whenever you want to and not have to worry about speeding too fast while doing platforming, but I suspect you guys will hate the idea.

[azoo]

I'll just say this:

I don't know why Sonic Team has been trying so long to fix something that was never broken.

[Rusty Spy]

Ya know, I'd propose a compromise with holding down a shoulder button to run ala Prototype to help control Sonic's speed so he can accelerate quickly whenever you want to and not have to worry about speeding too fast while doing platforming, but I suspect you guys will hate the idea.

Well, you could just have tight control over speed simply with the analog stick so that tilting to a degree makes Sonic walk/run to a certain degree, and holding forward completely, and only when completely holding forward, simply puts you at max acceleration gain to reach top speed. It's pretty much just like the shoulder button idea except with simply the analog stick and it'd feel smoother and more natural.

And as for super speedy gameplay, it's times like this that I praise Advance 2/3's method of the boost ability, ala Unleashed. It's simply regular Sonic but with increased acceleration, and top speed that makes Sonic able to go at insane speeds and even maintain speed with his acceleration when going uphill. And the best part about it is that it's activated through running at top speed for a few seconds, and mostly relies on physics and acceleration to make Sonic activate the boost quicker when going downhill or barely at all when going uphill, etc.

I'll just say this:

I don't know why Sonic Team has been trying so long to fix something that was never broken.

Well, to be honest, no 1 Sonic gameplay style (in 3D at least) was ever perfect.

IMO, Adventure/Adventure 2 were the closest in terms of basic foundation, mechanics, and level design, and Unleashed was the closest in terms of basic skills and abilities.

But none were perfect, and they all could still use a lot more tweaking before they can be considered perfect.

Edited August 25, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[azoo]

Well, to be honest, no 1 Sonic gameplay style (in 3D at least) was ever perfect.

IMO, Adventure/Adventure 2 were the closest in terms of basic foundation, mechanics, and level design, and Unleashed was the closest in terms of basic skills and abilities.

But none were perfect, and they all could still use a lot more tweaking before they can be considered perfect.

Well, I know this, but I just meant a type of gameplay that doesn't feel in any way flawed. SA1 almost got it perfect; I wasn't trying to say that Sonic has been through a 100% perfect transition to 3D, but surely SA1's gameplay wasn't broken in any ways. If Sega would've just improved off of what they had, we could've (maybe) had the perfect translation of Sonic to the next dimension. But what I mean is that Sega decided to try to "fix" the series, which ended up not just messing up the Adventure gameplay formula, but dividing the fanbase as well.

[Rusty Spy]

Well, I know this, but I just meant a type of gameplay that doesn't feel in any way flawed. SA1 almost got it perfect; I wasn't trying to say that Sonic has been through a 100% perfect transition to 3D, but surely SA1's gameplay wasn't broken in any ways. If Sega would've just improved off of what they had, we could've (maybe) had the perfect translation of Sonic to the next dimension. But what I mean is that Sega decided to try to "fix" the series, which ended up not just messing up the Adventure gameplay formula, but dividing the fanbase as well.

I can agree on this, except they really didn't try to fix anything, they instead went with adding gimmicks into the games. Unleashed was more or less a slight variation on the Adventure formula, more or less Rush + Adventure.

So far they haven't tried to "fix" the gameplay, just deviated away from it, then went back to it and taking a step forward and to the side. Unleashed had, arguably, the most improvement from the Adventure formula so far.

Edited August 25, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[azoo]

..Unleashed may be the most improvement since the Adventure formula, but I definitely wouldn't call it an improvement off of SA1.

And you are right; it was Sega just meddling with new ideas, which quite frankly, Sega didn't need because they had yet to notice that what made them famous was the Genesis / SA1 formula.

(And just to note, unlike how most people may be thinking right now, I happened to really like Unleashed, especially the day stages. I wouldn't mind it's gameplay at all if they would use the SA1 formula in some games and use the Unleashed formula in others. Then I would be somewhat satisfied.)

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

I'll still never understand how rose-tinted the glasses people look back at SA1 through are. In comparison to Unleashed, it just doesn't feel "Sonic" to me. Sure there's loops and stuff, but generally, the levels are really tiny, most of the platforming is 100% standard fare, and there's no sense of style to it at all.

I guess what I'm asking is what elements would you bring back from Adventure, and why, and how do you find them to be so very "Sonic" in nature?

I love the style, scope and speed of Unleashed's stages. I feel much more like I've accomplished something. The closest Adventure had to that was probably Speed Highway, which is quite the epic trek in it's own right. I guess if anything, Adventure gameplay is fine, I just wish the levels were bigger in scale. Not neccessarily longer, just bigger (I'm a firm believer that Sonic levels should never span longer than 10 minutes at absoloute maximum (with exceptions for epicness - I loved the grand journey through Eggmanland for a final stage).

Sort of trailed into multiple things including answering my own questions there, still, I'd like to know why Adventure is often seen as the holy grail, other than just because expectations were lower back then.

[Rusty Spy]

I'd like to know why Adventure is often seen as the holy grail, other than just because expectations were lower back then.

Well, I hold it up high for setting a good stranded foundation for 3D Sonic to work from, that being the runny jumpy style gameplay, and the level design was also a very good stranded for how a 3D Sonic stage could be, being mostly open areas, not being too linear, and having a lot of variety to them (though I will admit other stages from other games were this as well).

Of course, the game itself was a very rough draft version of how Sonic could work in 3D, but it was a great start.

Edited August 25, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[Badnik Zero]

As linear as Unleashed is, if Sonic Team had wanted to throw in entirely separate parts of the levels that were just hanging around somewhere, then they probably wouldn't be tucked away under some bushes you'd need to go at a snail's pace to find.

I wasn't clear on that part. On the Genesis you had backgrounds like cities and things that required imagination. I always wondered what it'd be like for Sonic to go to that city, and in 3D I don't see why he shouldn't. Sonic games fail to utilize that third dimension, it's just forward and back. And because of the pace of the games it's often just forward. I think there's a depth the games are missing by sticking to corridor platforming like it's 1996 and we're playing Crash Bandicoot. I'm not really blaming Sega for giving us beautiful backdrops, I'm just saying why can't Sonic move from this beaten path.

The old games were linear in that you had a point A and a point B in the first place, irregardless of their multiple paths, and indeed I beat them just fine by sticking to the main path. Giving me the option to explore is a bonus, not a goal. It rewards you sometimes, but it doesn't help you finish the game anymore than keeping to the main path will. I'd be foolishly willing to stick my neck out and argue that if you simplified the Classic games' level designs to only include one or two paths, you would objectively have nearly the exact same game.

Well since Unleashed has been compared to a racing game, I'd look at some race tracks. Mario Kart maybe, since Nintendo likes all those wacky tracks. I'd rather ride around a track with shortcuts and detours than a plain donut circuit. Getting to a place twice is more fun if you can do it a bit differently each time, and adds strategy to time attacking. It just doesn't seem like anything would be lost by adding these features to the game. Which is back to the depth we're missing by making the levels linear. I'm not saying they need to be entirely open world, but if Sonic's gonna be a speed demon, expand his options a bit. Admittedly some levels are better as a straight line, Sega could mix it up if they wanted to, I wouldn't complain.

For the classics, removing those high roads would take a lot away for me. I'm always trying to get to the top of Collision Chaos or something. It's just something you can mess around with, and even though it's optional it's necessary. Larger levels equals more immersion. More to do is never bad to me, and it's kind of a gaming philosophy but I look at it this way. If there's a theme park with two roller coasters and a theme park with six, I'm going to enjoy the one with six more, because I'm paying for my thrills. Also back to your point, Sonic 2 is the lesser of the classics to me because I feel it's the most straightforward. Just my opinion though, loads of people love that game. It's something they've never tried to do. They've experimented with the beat 'em up genre before they've tried to make a more open Sonic game, which makes no sense to me. Not bashing the W'hog specifically, just an example.

I'd like to know why Adventure is often seen as the holy grail, other than just because expectations were lower back then.

I think it's the best designed in terms of levels, and the closest to bringing Sonic style movement to 3D. I get that Sonic's got a new way to move now, but back between Adventure and ShtH, you can just watch the Adventure formula decay and it's awful to watch. More platforming in the game makes me happy. The whole level of Sky Deck isn't standard platforming. Running while the cannon shoots at you is fun, and that shifting hangar area at the end is an awesome concept, even if it was a bit buggy in execution. The gravity walls room in Lost World is a fun idea. And the game has fast action sections too. All of that game's later levels were great for me. And if anything, expectations were way high for SA1. It was the first real 3D game. Launch of the Dreamcast and all that.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Badnikz

[azoo]

I'll still never understand how rose-tinted the glasses people look back at SA1 through are. In comparison to Unleashed, it just doesn't feel "Sonic" to me. Sure there's loops and stuff, but generally, the levels are really tiny, most of the platforming is 100% standard fare, and there's no sense of style to it at all.

I guess what I'm asking is what elements would you bring back from Adventure, and why, and how do you find them to be so very "Sonic" in nature?

Because that's just what it is; a speedy-ish platformer that contains somewhat-usable physics and contains rolling stuff. In fact, here's my question: how does Unleashed feel very "Sonic" in nature? Because it's fast? It feels like slippery bar of soap that accelerates like a rocket, acts as a homing missle and contains racing elements. Also to note platforming is near impossible as Unleashed Sonic.

But I guess I agree with you on stage design. Open gameplay is really fpr the best enjoyment out of a Sonic game.

EDIT: Basically what Badnikz and Virgo said. And sorry if I sounded a little harsh; I get that way sometimes. =P

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

I'd say nearly impossible is where you're coming from. a bit of an overstatement.

(EDIT: "Where you're coming from?" What the hell does that even mean? I'm too tired =_=.)

As for "Because it's fast"... well, yes. No other platform game has ever offered an experience like Unleashed. That's why I think they just need to fine-tune the controls, and Sonic will practically have a sub-genre of his own within platforming.

Edited August 25, 2009 by JezMM

[Chaos Skies]

Well since Unleashed has been compared to a racing game, I'd look at some race tracks. Mario Kart maybe, since Nintendo likes all those wacky tracks. I'd rather ride around a track with shortcuts and detours than a plain donut circuit. Getting to a place twice is more fun if you can do it a bit differently each time, and adds strategy to time attacking. It just doesn't seem like anything would be lost by adding these features to the game. Which is back to the depth we're missing by making the levels linear. I'm not saying they need to be entirely open world, but if Sonic's gonna be a speed demon, expand his options a bit. Admittedly some levels are better as a straight line, Sega could mix it up if they wanted to, I wouldn't complain.

A very good point. It's actually kind-of funny that Sonic's levels have become more linear in nature since since he is so fast. Maybe it's just me, but the whole concept of his speed makes the idea of exploring multiple paths and such even more appealing than your standard platforming. One of the greatest feats of the older Sonic games was that you would see these massive, multi-tiered levels and I would think "whoa, thats huge" and the level would be amazing to play with the speed of Sonic since you could move so quickly between the different levels/paths.

I think it's the best designed in terms of levels, and the closest to bringing Sonic style movement to 3D. I get that Sonic's got a new way to move now, but back between Adventure and ShtH, you can just watch the Adventure formula decay and it's awful to watch. More platforming in the game makes me happy. The whole level of Sky Deck isn't standard platforming. Running while the cannon shoots at you is fun, and that shifting hangar area at the end is an awesome concept, even if it was a bit buggy in execution. The gravity walls room in Lost World is a fun idea. And the game has fast action sections too. All of that game's later levels were great for me. And if anything, expectations were way high for SA1. It was the first real 3D game. Launch of the Dreamcast and all that.

True. Also, I feel like the levels in SA were much more unique and memorable in their own right. I mentioned this a few pages back, but I feel like the more modern day Sonic levels are slightly more forgettable. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Sonic Unleashed, but besides the look of each level, every level played relatively the same: same hazards, same enemies, etc. The levels in Sonic Adventure just felt more of their own. Emerald Coast had the whale chase scene, windy valley a tornado, speed highway had running down the side o a building, twinkle park had the kart racing/amusement park area, casinopolis had the pinball games, lost world had running along the walls and so forth. Sonic Unleashed seemed to reuse a lot of stuff. For example, stomping the same switch in multiple levels, destroying the same enemies, being chased by the same robots, dashing across water. All these elements are used in multiple levels.

Just my thoughts.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Chaos Skies

[Rusty Spy]

As for "Because it's fast"... well, yes. No other platform game has ever offered an experience like Unleashed. That's why I think they just need to fine-tune the controls, and Sonic will practically have a sub-genre of his own within platforming.

That's fine, and frankly, I can see a possibility. But the first thing I'd do is rid of the boost and give Sonic his own auto boost, like in Advance 2, so that it's use is most prevalent in speedy sections and doesn't interfere with the slower sections, and gives Sonic a reason to roll and use the spindash for speeding up quickly and going downhill.

[JezMM]

^ ^ ^ In response to Chaos Skies.

This is true, though I thought Unleashed had a kind of nice mixture of both developed repeated set-pieces and level-specific ones, though still, the levels could have had much more personality gimmick-wise, I agree.

At a stretch one could say,

Windmill Isle: Introductory stage, nothing special (though not an excuse for nothing cool and awesome).

Savannah Citadel: Pole swinging and ascending the looping multi-level tree.

Cool Edge: The sledding areas (though make a return in Eggmanland).

Rooftop Run: Dodging barrels and the clock tower ascension.

Dragon Road: Fireworks and spinning towers.

Arid Sands: Falling pillars.

Skyscraper Scamper: Hmm... indeed, nothing special other than some nice branching grinding sections at the end.

Jungle Joyride: Water running emphasis with multiple routes.

Eggmanland: Vast array of multiple routes and pushing pistons.

I'd love a Sonic game where I can make a list like that, and every single stage takes up more than one line within my post.

As for the Adv.2 type boost, that'd be nice to see in 3D, and would certainly work similar to Arrow's "Sonic Boom" idea a few pages ago. Perhaps they should make it so it's running fast that builds up the boost meter, rather than grabbing rings? And it can only build up when you're NOT using it of course... would add a bit more strategy I guess.

Edited August 25, 2009 by JezMM

[G-Force]

It seems to me that nobody here actually wants to sacrifice speed for platforming or platforming for speed. The people that want more platforming(like me) aren't saying, "OMFG we need to get rid of all the speed so we can have platforming!!!" I know that, because that's specifically not what I want to say. I want to say that I, personally(since I have no right to speak for anyone else), want LESS speed, and to have the speed be recombined with momentum and clever level designs in order to produce a unique variety of platforming. Because that's what the series was founded on and it seems to me that it should be the core idea forming the backbone of every game in the whole damn series. And I have yet to find any good reason why it wouldn't work in 3D.

Of course, having said that, the day stages of Sonic Unleashed do have their merits. I would have to be a one-sided douchebag to say they don't. And I can understand that some people would really like them, even though they're not my cup of tea. So it's clear to me that getting rid of the super special awesome high speeds completely is a bad answer. And, unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to blend the Unleashed speeds with highly explorable levels. It seems to me that it's just too fast for the blend to work right. So why not do both the way Unleashed did?

I remember an interview or something with some Sega official, wherein he said that they needed to pair the super fast day stages with the slower night stages. There are different reasons, but the ones I recall are padding the game's length, because if the game doesn't last long enough it's not really worth the money, and development times, because it takes a long time to make each individual day stage and have be satisfying, and since they're not Nintendo and thus don't have shit that prints money, they can't afford to burn loads and loads of time on each individual game. They need to put out products quickly enough to make money so they can keep making products.

That previous seemed sort of arbitrarily placed, didn't it? Well, it's there to help justify and explain my idea. Why not have the slower(but still fast), more platforming centric gameplay metaphorically acting as the cakey part of the cupcake/game, with the super fast levels acting as a cream filling of sorts. This way, everyone should be getting what they want, at least until someone figures out how to combine it all together right.