Sonic the Platformer

[azoo]

I'm not saying to sacrifice speed for platforming. My point is that you should use platforming, the speed Sonic comes with, and momentum to get the speed you want. It's far more rewarding than "Hold X for instant gratification". And I agree with Virgo; if you guys want a Boost-type thing, then his idea of using what Sadv2 had to offer boost-wise is certainly the right way to go.

However, notice that Sonic's "boost" from Sadv2 doesn't instantly kill enemies as the Sonic Boost does, so jumping and rolling would still have to be the main focus of gameplay. And you guys certainly don't want rolling to have anything to do with your gameplay. =P

(And yes, I found merits in Unleashed's gameplay too, G-Force, but sadly all it led to was incredibly linear stages.)

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[JezMM]

Hmm. Okay, I think I have some sort of vague control scheme thought up (using 360 controller as basic).

A = Spin Attack

X = Spin Dash

LT/RT = Drift

LB/RB = Quick-step

B = Toggle Boost

Y = Light Dash

A + A = Buzz Saw

A + X = Homing Attack

A + B = Bounce Attack

Now, this new move, the buzz saw, and the return of the spin dash, would work with the boost. The boost would not make you near invincible like in Unleashed. Instead to mow down enemies, you have two choices. While boosting, push X to roll through them like bowling pins, or do a small jump and push A again to do a "buzz saw" attack, in which Sonic frantically spins round with anime sword style "slice" effects generating around him for a few seconds, essentially making his hit box larger and defeating any enemies within it (the downside to this move is while efficient, you can't "bop" enemies, you just plough through them).

So it'd take away the invincibility of the boost, give some choices (especially for hoardes of flying enemies as well as ground based groups), but still give the satisfaction of totally wrecking the place.

[Arrow]

I'll just say this:

I don't know why Sonic Team has been trying so long to fix something that was never broken.

Because it broke as soon as it went 3D. I like Sonic 3D, but part of me feels eugh that it's a sonic game, beause Sonic is not only painfully slow but is clumbersome too and at no point in the game is his speed made use of.

Also, itgoes back to what was being said about a development in graphics, capabilities and response time should mean that Sonic can evolve. Sega have struggled to get it right, but I've enjoyed some of their efforts along the way and styalistically, I've especially enjoyed the development. You disagree here. That is fine. Buty you surely understand that he needs to evolve?

It's like saying Nintendo should have never put Mario in a car, because there was nothing wrong with the standard gameplay. Mario Kart's sucess isn't relevent. The point is, you need to evolve, try new things. Even Sonic 2 evolved. I just don't see your issue.

But no one is ganging up on you or hating on you. I'm just disagreeing with you.

As for Sonic Adventure, bar the introduction of the music and characters visual design. I think it's shit. I can't think of much that I do like about it. Emerald Coast. And. Hm. No that's it.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Arrow

[Badnik Zero]

^^ JezMM, your control scheme is basically what I would use, only plus a crouch button and maybe minus the homing attack.

I put down a list of moves in the homing attack topic that looks just like that. Who says Sonic fans don't agree on things.

[azoo]

Because it broke as soon as it went 3D. I like Sonic 3D, but part of me feels eugh that it's a sonic game, beause Sonic is not only painfully slow but is clumbersome too and at no point in the game is his speed made use of.

Note: Sonic 3D wasn't really 3D.

Also, it goes back to what was being said about a development in graphics, capabilities and response time should mean that Sonic can evolve. Sega have struggled to get it right, but I've enjoyed some of their efforts along the way and styalistically, I've especially enjoyed the development. You disagree here. That is fine. Buty you surely understand that he needs to evolve?

It's like saying Nintendo should have never put Mario in a car, because there was nothing wrong with the standard gameplay. Mario Kart's sucess isn't relevent. The point is, you need to evolve, try new things. Even Sonic 2 evolved. I just don't see your issue.

1) Mario Kart is a spinoff. Sonic Unleashed is not.

2) The Spindash wasn't an evolvement, it was an improvement. Other than this and a small speedcap fix, Sonic 2 was no different from Sonic 1 gameplay-wise at all. The problem with things like SA2 or Unleashed (and even SA1 for that matter) is that they started adding moves that didn't just mess up the use of other moves, and not just were they un-necessary, but they weren't improvements either, just little add-ons.

But no one is ganging up on you or hating on you. I'm just disagreeing with you.

The problem is that I give reason behind why things work and why they don't, while you just tell your opinion with no backing behind it. For example, exactly what you said afterwards:

As for Sonic Adventure, bar the introduction of the music and characters visual design. I think it's shit. I can't think of much that I do like about it. Emerald Coast. And. Hm. No that's it.

Please let me understand why SA1 is "crap (since I'm not gonna say that). I would like to take your opinion seriously if you gave reasoning behind your opinion (as I try to do with me and Unleashed). No offense, but you come off as nonsensically judgemental.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[Sean]

How does he sound like a prick for dissing a video game? Are the video game's feeling's hurt? D:

[azoo]

Sorry, wrong wording. I don't know, I've been using the wrong words for everything in the past couple of days. 0_o

What I meant to say was how he was being judgemental over something without giving good reason, and I just couldn't find the right word to sum that up. =/

[Chooch]

Hmm. Okay, I think I have some sort of vague control scheme thought up (using 360 controller as basic).

A = Spin Attack

X = Spin Dash

LT/RT = Drift

LB/RB = Quick-step

B = Toggle Boost

Y = Light Dash

A + A = Buzz Saw

A + X = Homing Attack

A + B = Bounce Attack

Now, this new move, the buzz saw, and the return of the spin dash, would work with the boost. The boost would not make you near invincible like in Unleashed. Instead to mow down enemies, you have two choices. While boosting, push X to roll through them like bowling pins, or do a small jump and push A again to do a "buzz saw" attack, in which Sonic frantically spins round with anime sword style "slice" effects generating around him for a few seconds, essentially making his hit box larger and defeating any enemies within it (the downside to this move is while efficient, you can't "bop" enemies, you just plough through them).

So it'd take away the invincibility of the boost, give some choices (especially for hoardes of flying enemies as well as ground based groups), but still give the satisfaction of totally wrecking the place.

Hmm. This sounds a lot like the control scheme that I was thinking about early this morning while talking to a friend of mine.

A - Jump/Homing Attack

B - Crouch/Stomp/Spin Dash

X - Boost

Y - Light Speed Dash

LT/RT - Sonic Drift

LB/RB - Quick Step/Change Target

Now to explain:

Homing Attack is back onto the A button because if there's one thing that Sonic Unleashed taught me, it's that boost and homing attack should not be on the same button. It's a recipe for disaster in most cases.

Another thing you'll notice is that I have Spin Dash mapped onto the same button as crouch. That's because instead of doing an incredibly pointless breakdance kick when you tap the button in quick succession, you'll go into a Spin Dash. The Spin Dash has use because like in your control scheme, you aren't invincible when you boost and can't just tear through everyone by running into them. You spin into them while boosting by pressing the crouch button once you build up enough speed. The more speed you have, the stronger the attack, etc.

Now, this may be hard to explain, but the boost button isn't exactly just a boost button. I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say that typically when Sonic reaches close to max speed he becomes a bit of a nuisance to control. I also think there's an issue with Sonic having too much momentum when he's simply walking. This is my idea help remedy that.

The boost button isn't just for increasing speed right then and there but it also regulates how fast Sonic will go. Sonic doesn't need to go really really fast all the time so when you're boosting and come to a part when you might need to slow down (or even screech to a halt) it becomes a problem in the current Sonic games. Take this example:

Say when you first start the level up you're running at a decent speed. Not max speed but pretty fast. If you want to let it all out and go crazy fast you tap the boost button. Need to slow down? Tap the boost button again. Basically, it puts on/releases a cap on how fast you can go. If you suddenly want to screech to a halt while boosting then you hold down the boost button and Sonic will try and slow down as quickly as he can. It's more of a 'Speed Regulation' button than anything, but Boost just sounds simpler.

Quick Step and Sonic Drift are pretty self-explanatory, but then there's the change target command mapped on to same buttons as Quick Step. Change target is specifically for homing attacking in the air. Homing attack may target the wrong enemy by default so those buttons are there to possibly help you if you're ever in that situation.

I also had an idea for a more combat oriented mode of sorts for stronger enemies that you wouldn't want to mindless homing attack a million times in order to kill that you could toggle with a tap on the directional pad. Think Sonic Heroes' switching from speed to power formation but less.. terrible and button-mashy.

[Blacklightning]

By giving the player a free ticket to go as fast as they want without consequence or challenge, it loses it's appeal.

It really puzzles me that people keep saying this about the Boost in Unleashed, when it's the most common cause of death amongst nearly all players of the game when coupled with spikes and pits. That's like saying the spindash (or hell, even the standard roll) robs all challenge and satisfation from the game simply because you can plough through several enemies without a second thought, with one or two button presses - the reality is, BOTH of these moves are dependant on level design to thrive. The boost is no more inherently bad than the spindash when it comes right down to it, but it's up to the level to give the player a hard time and the satisfaction of overcoming it. Only real difference is that spinning relies on slopes, whereas Boosting relies on scale and speed-based set pieces (the falling pillars in Shamar come to mind).

[azoo]

Yes, but the boost in itself is instant gratification, while rolling requires gaining the speed through momentum. It's tons more rewarding than the Boost by any means. And yes, rolling may depend on hills and slopes, but hills and slopes are major parts of textbook Sonic level design. And whats the point of those hills and slopes if there's not even a little-bit of a small challenge to get up them and/or take advantage of them?

Not just that, but I find it weird to know that Sonic's a hedgehog, yet nowadays he doesn't do anything that makes that stand out as it used to. It really makes Sega look obscure or random by pulling up a hedgehog (an animal not even that highly recognized in the Americas or some of Asia) that does nothing relating to hedgehogs whatsoever. Sure, you could argue that he has hedgehog-like qualities because of his spinning jump attack, but that's natural for most platformer characters to attack with their, well, jump. The thing about Sonic is that curling in a ball is what a hedgehog really does, and should be taken further into consideration when making a Sonic game (just as how they did back the, gasp you guessed it, Genesis games).

You see, I wouldn't have nearly as many problems with Unleashed's daytime stages if the Sonic Boost wasn't such a cheap ability (instant LOLspeed, ring-magnet and invincibility). It also brought the issue of highly stiff manuevering (which isn't that bad, since high speeds should be tightened), but since it was there, it pretty much encouraged the level design to be incredibly linear so that Boosting wouldn't interfere with movement flow through the levels. It also brought along drifting and Quick Step to aid it, which isn't actually a bad idea in itself (as I believe it aids Sonic's 3D handling quite well) but the drift had an overly-high learning curve and Quick Step was overused. And not just these things, but since they spent so much time developing how Sonic would handle at this LOLspeed they forgot that they needed to polish up how Sonic moves at slower speeds, thus leading to being with an extremely high acceleration, laggy deceleration, and slippery movement.

Basically, if I was to modify how Unleashed was to be done, I would do these things:

.Tighten Sonic's slow controls (fine tune them to where it's tight as SA1's or something, make accel slower, etc.)

.Replace the Sonic Boost with the return of rolling and the Spindash

.Do as Virgo said; give Sonic his automatic Sadv2 "boost"

.tighten up his jumping controls (momentum heaviness is good on ground, not so good in air)

.open up the stages by alot and throw in a bunch of quirky gimmicks

.make sure platforming and Werehog-esque puzzle stuff is used just as much as speed is, but not to overshadow the speed factor

.stop / at least lower emphasization on the Homing Attack

.Make the Quick Step less of a "side-to-side-dash", and more of a SatSR strafe

.Make drifting tighter, possibly like WiiS2's drift

If these things could be done to Unleashed, I'd be extremely happy.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Azukara

[Blacklightning]

Yes, but the boost in itself is instant gratification, while rolling requires gaining the speed through momentum. It's tons more rewarding than the Boost by any means. And yes, rolling may depend on hills and slopes, but hills and slopes are major parts of textbook Sonic level design. And whats the point of those hills and slopes if there's not even a little-bit of a small challenge to get up them and/or take advantage of them?

I think you're missing the point here. The classic Sonic style, mostly thanks to the rolling mechanics, relies on slopes, yes, that's a fact and I won't deny it BUT, that's not what the Boost is built around. While both are dependent on level design, they take completely different approaches to it - that said, the boost was not designed with the intention of utilizing angled geography and I can't see why you're trying to fault it because it isn't.

Gaining the speed is the easy bit, in both of these examples. The key difference is the challenge, and reward. The Boost challenges you with negotiating an obstacle course at high speed - the reward, for the most part, is getting through completely intact with no loss of time. And in that respect, the roll and boost are practically incomparable. I can definently understand it being overly cheap and requiring fairly linear level design though, but that's a different subject matter.

[Arrow]

The problem is that I give reason behind why things work and why they don't, while you just tell your opinion with no backing behind it. For example, exactly what you said afterwards:

Please let me understand why SA1 is "crap (since I'm not gonna say that). I would like to take your opinion seriously if you gave reasoning behind your opinion (as I try to do with me and Unleashed). No offense, but you come off as nonsensically judgemental.

I don't think I've started any opinions without backing them up, when it's relevant for them to be back up... Pointing out that I'm not a fan of SA1 was because the majority seem to be fans and I was just expressing that I am not. Nothing more. I'm sure it's obvious why I'm not a fan from my previous posts. It's SLOW.

But,

How does he sound like a prick for dissing a video game? Are the video game's feeling's hurt? D:

I take it that was edited out...?

I don't think I've been judgemental at all, and certainly not a prick. If it's come across that way to any of you then I'm terribly sorry.

You, Azukara, seem very set in your ways and have no room to budge. I don't think you're interested really in what I think or why, you're only concerned with getting your point across and when people disagree, you think it's just because you've failed to get your point across. You're reading loud and clear, dude, it's just some people don't agree.

Anyway, I'm out. I'm not continuing what was a very calm discussion, on my part, with someone spitefully calling me a prick. Especially after making an issue out of the word shit, which wasn't even directed at you. Lol. What a joke.

[JezMM]

Hmm, I just want to say, and this is a total just blurt of opinion from me, but with regards to "earning" speed in Sonic...

I really don't care. Saying you have to earn speed in Sonic is like saying you have to earn jumping in Mario.

Speed is Sonic's thing, I feel it should come as default. What -I- like to earn in Sonic (and the reason I loved Unleashed) is fluidity. I love to harness and master that speed to do perfect runs of the level without tripping or getting hurt etc.

But that's not an arguement, just opinion. That's just what I want. And why I don't mind how overpowered the boost is.

[Chaos Skies]

I really don't care. Saying you have to earn speed in Sonic is like saying you have to earn jumping in Mario.

Speed is Sonic's thing, I feel it should come as default. What -I- like to earn in Sonic (and the reason I loved Unleashed) is fluidity. I love to harness and master that speed to do perfect runs of the level without tripping or getting hurt etc.

Good point actually. I definitely cannot argue that default speed should not have to be earned. Part of the fun of a Sonic game (as you mentioned) is to use his speed to navigate obstacles and such and come out unscathed. To try and remove such a native ability of Sonic does seem somewhat...backwards in a way. What could be argued though is that supersonic speed (lol), speed which exceeds Sonic's normal speed, should be earned. This is what rolling + momentum did as well as the boost. Both abilities allowed Sonic to reach even higher than normal speeds. So I guess you could then ask the question "should this ability be given to the user and the challenge be to use it wisely or should the ability have to be earned." Thinking about it, it all depends on the level design. Sonic Unleashed used the former. The boost was there and it was up to the user to use it wisely (ie if you use it during a corner you're going to boost off the edge). The biggest problem with the boost in Unleashed though is the fact that the game really did make you use it more than it should have. It's almost impossible to get an S rank without consistently using the boost. Since the boost is seen as an "extra" power of Sonic, it should be such that...extra. I don't really think you should ever have to use it, but rather if you can master the use of it it helps you dearly. I think in that regard you could then incorporate more exploring/platforming in a Sonic game. For example, instead of using the QTEs to dictate which path you take, why not allow the user to go off the platforms in two ways: with and without the boost. Jump off using the boost you take a higher path, jump without the boost and you take a lower path. I feel like it's little things like that which could immerse you more and feel like you're controlling Sonic a bit more.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Chaos Skies

[JezMM]

Well, admittidly, Unleashed did have many boost-sensitive ramps like that, though only about 50% lead to different routes.

For QTEs I do agree there should be some sort of consistant control scheme. Like the shooty things. Have consistant controls rather than a random code to put in. Or at least make every ramp have the same input each time so they're memorisable.

As for the boost being required for S ranks though, I'm okay with that. Boosting is part of the game, just as jumping, light speed dash, drift, quick-step and sliding are. You need to master all of these to get through each level with the fluidity required to collect an S rank. And, as S ranks are entirely optional, I believe that's a fair task to give to the player who wants them.

Edited August 26, 2009 by JezMM

[azoo]

I had an idea I got today in class. It was definitely something worth mentioning. It was Sonic gameplay of Unleashed and the Genesis games, fused into one. I've contemplated about it for a long time, and sadly there was no avail, as it seemed that there were too many things different about Unleashed compared to the old games (aka the Boost, linear levels and such)..

But I think I got it. Listen to this:

Gears.

What does it make you think of?

No, I don't mean "gears" as in from some machine (and I especially don't mean GoW). I mean "gears" like on a car. Changing gears. So here's my question: what if Sonic did have a "gear-change" control? Call me crazy, but it just might work.

Sonic would have the same old, same old: jumping, rolling, Spindash, Lightspeed Dash, Bound Attack, Homing Attack (to an extent); and the toggle-able "Speedgears". Now of course, it most likely wouldn't be called a "Speedgear" (since gears are non-existent in a hedgehog), but you get what I mean.

When Sonic starts off, by default he's in "Speed One". In this, Sonic controls just about like SA1 Sonic; a slow acceleration with a somewhat-fast top speed. Along with this, Sonic's jumps are easier to handle, and platforming is better suited to this speed. However, moving at high speeds in this gear can make handling very unstable. It is to note that speed in this mode is gained through momentum, like the classics.

In "Speed Two", Sonic controls like off of Unleashed. A high acceleration with a higher top speed, and his jumping is very very momentum-heavy, also leaving his ground controls to be very slippery when not going at top speed. (This makes it where you might not want to try to do platforming in this said "gear".) Also to note that when moving at top speed in this form for a long time makes Sonic automatically do a Sadv2-esque boost that doesn't make you invulnerable (which cranks the challenge factor up a notch and renews the usefulness of rolling / the Spindash). Quick Stepping and drifting are also activated when moving at this speed, allowing steering in this speed to be easier.

By pressing the B Button (360 controls BTW) Sonic can freely toggle between these two speeds, allowing him to go from platforming and exploring in one area to darting off at blistering speeds in the next, without necessarily breaking the flow of gameplay whatsoever. This also solves problems of what Sonic's gameplay should be, since you can use either style of controls as much as you want (although using both styles is encouraged). Also to note that making the boost less powerful brings importance back to rolling, thus encouraging players to use it again.

The controls would look like this (for 360):

L Stick - Move Sonic

A Button - Jump / Homing Attack

B Button - Toggle Speeds

X Button - Rolling / Spindash / Bound Attack (in midair)

Y Button - Action / Lightspeed Dash (near a trail of rings)

R Stick - Camera

Bumpers - Quick Step (in Speed 2)

Triggers - Drift (in Speed 2)

I know, it might sound silly (and too complicated for a Sonic game), but it serves what made the classics good as well as what made Unleashed and the Adventures good. What do you guys think? Opinions?

Edited August 26, 2009 by Black Ranger Azukara

[JezMM]

I DO like the idea, but as you said, the lack of simplicity makes it a tad iffy. I guess with a good tutorial it'd all make sense, and as long as ALL areas are at least possible with both speeds, it'd be fine.

I can imagine having a little icon above the ring counter showing either a running Sonic or a bendy 8 legs Sonic depending on what speed you're on. X3

Alternately, I can also imagine it'd be cool if the soundtrack changed depending on speed. When you're in speed two mode it adds a little fast DnB style percussion track over the top of the music or something for effect. =3 (Like say, the difference between "Windmill Isle - The Suburbs" and "Windmill Isle" in Unleashed).

Edited August 26, 2009 by JezMM

[Chooch]

I said pretty much the exact same thing when I posted my control scheme earlier.

[azoo]

LOL, sorry. I ended up reading it but I didn't notice that's what you were getting at.

Anyways, good to see that a couple of people in this fanbase actually agree on something. XD

[Chooch]

Well, I'll admit while I was writing it up I didn't really think of a way to describe it as 'switching gears'. Way less of a mouthful than all the crap I typed up. D:

And yes, agreeing on something is nice. And a rarity.

[Semi-colon e]

I like the idea of switching gears. I only played the Unleashed Demo (which I loved because it was lolfast, but it would get old all the time), but I found slower controls too slippery. I think a "gear toggle" would be handy. I also thought up of pressing a button during movement to roll, and it would be used down hills. The slower speeds would encourage more open level design and exploration, while the faster gear would be more for speed based sections, though I imagine you wouldn't necessarily have to change gears while rolling down a hill or something. It's a bit iffy to make work, but I bet it would be fun

[JezMM]

The question comes down to how well gears would work really. Would it be a case of "optional" so that there is worth in searching around in "high-speed" areas, and satisfying to speed-through "slow" areas with skill?

Or would it be Sonic Heroes all over again with floating signs (or not - the gameplay would be pretty much the same without those signs) telling you which to use for what bit and barely any point in using the wrong one at the wrong time?

[azoo]

Like I said, I believe the levels should be where they have many open areas and multiple routes; and it doesn't matter how you play the game, you could play it one way (exploring and platforming) or the other (speeding straight through). It's the freedom of choice, the ability to choose if you really want to dash constantly or not. That's one of the things I thought was so charming about the Genesis games' level design in the first place.

[Badnik Zero]

That's what I meant in the OP by toggleable speeds. I don't think Sonic should have a walk or run trigger specifically, but something to separate the average speed from the blinding speed would be cool. The boost is kind of like that already, but too cheaply gained and the levels cater to it too much IMO. I'm interested to see what the next evolution of the boost will be from Sonic Team.

I've never played any DLC Unleashed levels, but some of the more original ones look more platformy than usual. For those who played it, was the Shamar Chao mission very good? It looked like what I imagine a decent open Sonic level would look like.

[Candescence]

Speed Gear, huh...?

Wait, isn't that basically the run button I suggested back on page 4?