Sonic Forces Final DLC - What is it?

[Diogenes]

17 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

I mean, RoL was arguably dead before arrival and is near universally agreed to be one of the worst Sonic games of all time, if not amongst one of the worst video games of all time. It still got an update after a few months to fix and make some of the issues more manageable.

Yeah, but did that make anyone care? Did they fix enough to make the game worth buying? Did they fix enough to counteract its reputation as a godawful mess?

Because I'm pretty sure that RoL is still considered a complete dumpster fire.

17 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Acknowledging mistakes and improving means returning to controversial games to make them better too,

...do any developers actually operate like that? Providing support for recent and still-relevant games, sure, fixing some issues when porting/remaking a game, sure. Going back to fix "controversial" games? That just seems like a huge waste of time and money, which could be better spent on not making the same mistakes with their next game.

[SaturnWolf]

It may not be much, but it could definitely be something.

What it could be? I don't usually wager guesses on that sort of thing because my predictions don't usually age well. It could be a few extra stages, it could be something as small as extra costumes. It sure came as a surprise to me that Lost World got any DLC at all considering it's reception, which isn't that different from that of Sonic Forces. 

One thing also worth noting is how even Sonic 2006 got a good few pieces of DLC, especially Team Attack Amigo that made significant improvements like drastically improving Tails' groundspeed. Even if a game was horrendously received, which Forces was not, it wouldn't be completely unheard of. Sega doesn't operate like most normal companies.

[Mad Convoy]

26 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah, but did that make anyone care? Did they fix enough to make the game worth buying? Did they fix enough to counteract its reputation as a godawful mess?

Because I'm pretty sure that RoL is still considered a complete dumpster fire.

I was arguing this in favor of the notion that its not unprecedented for Sega to update games that are outright bad, so updating a decent game isn't unreasonable. I made no comment regarding how the update affected people's perceptions of the game because it is irrelevant to the point I was making with it. I was not speaking of people's perceptions. I was citing past decisions in Sega's history that I see no reason to just believe won't happen ever again because I don't want it to and in fact see some signs that it may well happen, speculative as my viewpoint may be at this point.
 

 

30 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

...do any developers actually operate like that? Providing support for recent and still-relevant games, sure, fixing some issues when porting/remaking a game, sure. Going back to fix "controversial" games? That just seems like a huge waste of time and money, which could be better spent on not making the same mistakes with their next game.

Ah, the old scare quotes. A sign that you don't actually believe Forces to be controversial. Given your strongly negative view, I'm guessing you think that Forces is unanimously considered terrible?

It isn't. Its wildly polarizing, yes-- seems people love it or hate it-- but far from unanimously disliked. According to Sega it sold decently well. Maybe you're amongst the many that think that's untrue. I strongly doubt that Sega's lying about the sales figure, but I don't have to convince you of their veracity to make my point. Giving an update, as weird of a timing and handling as it might seem, would make sense to demonstrate that Forces did decently, whether because it did or to fortify lies that encourage more funding from investors.

Games that are outright bad typically get an apology announcement afterwards and then the developers move on (if gamers haven't just baselessly assumed that the developers will always be bad forever and stop buying games from that developer, hence running the dev out of business for good)-- but games that are seriously flawed but still show a lot of promise, even if they're mired in controversy? They do get updates and support often from developers, because they want to support people who support their game, even if it is for the sole cynical reason of supporting their profits.

How else do you think Bethesda, which used to be notorious for making games that were blatantly broken on launch and had to be made at least somewhat mended with a long series of updates over the course of a year (to the point where fans of the company actually advocated for people not to buy games from the dev until a year after launch), survived until it could convince its publisher to stop rushing them? Because people wanted to support their games, even if they had a habit of launching broken games, and even if they faced controversy as being the face of everything wrong with modern day use of patches and updates. Likewise, Square Enix's first attempt at a Final Fantasy MMO was terrible. It was considered very linear and limited, with poorly conceived gameplay and players also thought subscriptions were overpriced as a result. They did decide to replace this first attempt with a better game... but didn't forget the people who had paid for the first try and supported it. So the first attempt got one last update, where every player with an account engaged in a futile, but gorgeously animated and cool, fight with a creature who would destroy the world. After this event, the world was ended so whole game just shut down, gone forever from the internet--- but it at last got one moment of glory. This generated a lot of goodwill amongst the few that liked the first attempt and the many who didn't, and that helped the second attempt get off on the right foot. In other words, Square Enix took both options you mention and made a profit from it-- it gave the bad title an update for those who supported it, and it also moved on and focused its efforts on the second try. While a game like Sonic Forces couldn't do something exactly like an young adult-oriented MMO would do, I see no reason for it to be inherently cost ineffective and time-wasting for developers to attempt a similarly epic sendoff for Forces-- especially since Forces doesn't even have an overwhelmingly negative consensus.

That doesn't mean that this is precisely what this mysterious final DLC/update thing is, or even what its likely to be, but for me its an ideal if highly improbable speculation, if that makes any sense.

[Dejimon11]

Some folks are actually speculating that the game might have DLC giving how tease heavy the social media team can be at times. 

Just look at the A it has the avatar in it. Along with Sanic but really who the hell cares about that overused meme at this point? Seriously why do they keep bringing it up?

 

[Meta77]

I'd laugh if it literally was a big update.  some hidden final boss. I'm sure even if it were something it would not take away from plus.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

Unlikely but maybe they'll finally add a Chaos 0 and Shadow boss battle so those aspects of the game don't feel like false advertising anymore.

A boss fight against 2 or more of those generic death egg robots at the same time that we see early in the game would be a interesting extra DLC boss battle too.

[Red Hot Jack]

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Unlikely but maybe they'll finally add a Chaos 0 and Shadow boss battle so those aspects of the game don't feel like false advertising anymore.

OMG, this. I was so disappointed those boss fights were not in the game at all. Especially Chaos being useless.

Btw, yeah with that clue Aaron posted we can add a bit more credibility to this rumor.

[Iko]

I think it's possible that it's a new chapter/episode of the game.

When you finish the game, there is that 0,01% thing, that says that it's not finished yet, there is more; it's very likely that they planned it from the start.

Now, it's not necessarily a big thing, it may even be just 1 level, maybe rehashed like the ones in Episode Shadow, but I'm convinced that it's something that continues the story of the game.

And I think it's not a coincidence that it's going to be released/announced close to the release of Mania +

I think it may be connected, the two games were meant to be parallel after all... who knows, maybe they will add Mighty & Ray to Forces too (as Classic Sonic skins, like Shadow for Modern).

I don't know, it can be anything.

I hope they improved the controls in the meanwhile, but I know it won't happen.

[Multikaris]

11 hours ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Unlikely but maybe they'll finally add a Chaos 0 and Shadow boss battle so those aspects of the game don't feel like false advertising anymore.

A boss fight against 2 or more of those generic death egg robots at the same time that we see early in the game would be a interesting extra DLC boss battle too.

Perhaps also fighting that spider crab robot from the GHZ avatar stage? Red Eye has assets in Death Egg, so maybe that one too? Seaside Hill and whatever Silver was here for sound interesting as well. 

[Detective Kaito]

It's probably something that got canceled after they saw the game's reception. I hope it's something like Episode Knuckles, if anything.

[shdowhunt60]

Maybe it's the one that removes Denuvo, so that we can enjoy the game without fear of not being able to in the inevitable future where Denuvo's servers are shut down.

Who am I kidding?

[Your Vest Friend]

The game's sale would have probably been strongest on the physical side rather than the digital side, so Forces wouldn't have been so affected by it (as opposed to Mania which was digital only, so would have far more copies sold from the Steam version despite Denuvo being there (also accounting other digital platforms), but the physical Forces sold would make them equal overall). 

[DabigRG]

On 7/6/2018 at 6:39 AM, JezMM said:

.  I also wish you could replay the story without deleting your whole save - it's kinda lame that you have your custom avatar show up in cut-scenes but the only way to do that as you play along the adventure is to start from scratch - meaning there's barely anything to customise them with.

Actually, you can watch the actual cutscenes by going down to Gallery(?) on the title menu.

On 7/6/2018 at 8:21 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

But if they seriously want to improve things here's my demands, from small to big

  Hide contents

 

1) Make Shadow playable in missions in tag team, bosses, etc. I saw mods that did this, it's just embarrassing.
2) More playable characters (even if they skins) or at very list Avatar costumes/species/etc
3) Add Chaos and/or Shadow boss fights
4) New Bonus Episode or at least new stage. If they want to be lazy,  destroyed Green Hills, but right this time!!!

5) Fleshing out the story, like HUB where you can talk to resistance. Shouldn't be too hard, since model are in the game, it would be mostly paying actors and writers. But we know Sonic and world building is these days, so I'm putting it last.

 

 

Those sound like neat things for the game to have.

What the--?! That's how it was gonna look originally?  What's up with the webs?

On 7/6/2018 at 11:48 AM, JezMM said:

 

I figured at least one game would have a non-descript, abandoned DLC slot from years back or something that looks like this one that never amounted to anything, but none do.

Didn't 06 have some sort of DLC or followup planned at one point?

.

16 hours ago, Iko said:

 

And I think it's not a coincidence that it's going to be released/announced close to the release of Mania +

I think it may be connected, the two games were meant to be parallel after all... who knows, maybe they will add Mighty & Ray to Forces too (as Classic Sonic skins, like Shadow for Modern).

 

That would be a neat little allay for Classic being in the game.

6 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

whatever Silver was here for sound interesting as well. 

Was there any hint of a reason for Silver's presence beyond "the entire world is in danger"?

5 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Maybe it's the one that removes Denuvo, so that we can enjoy the game without fear of not being able to in the inevitable future where Denuvo's servers are shut down.

Who am I kidding?

What is Denuvo?

[JezMM]

6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Actually, you can watch the actual cutscenes by going down to Gallery(?) on the title menu.

-

Didn't 06 have some sort of DLC or followup planned at one point?

I said "as you play the adventure".  There is no way to replay the story with all the cut-scenes happening automatically between levels, alongside the conversations before and after each stage.  I don't want to have to quit out to the gallery between every level as I replay the game, and even if I did, that still omits all the conversations.

-

I don't recall ever hearing anything about that, but anyway, I was talking about Sonic game entries on the SteamDB.  Obviously, 2006 isn't on there because it's not available on Steam.

 

As for Denuvo, it's a program that operates in the background as an anti-piracy measure.  It's been criticised for being a resource hog on computers or otherwise being inefficient/undesirable, and SEGA were criticised heavily when it turned out that the PC version of Mania had been delayed - a day before release - to add it at the last minute.

Both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces use it, so if you want to buy either game on Steam, it automatically is installed to your PC.  Obviously it only runs when those games run, but it still annoys people because, like most intrusive anti-piracy measures, it punishes paying customers while pirates just find a way around it anyway (which they did in under a week, if I recall).

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, JezMM said:

I said "as you play the adventure".  There is no way to replay the story with all the cut-scenes happening automatically between levels, alongside the conversations before and after each stage.  I don't want to have to quit out to the gallery between every level as I replay the game, and even if I did, that still omits all the conversations.

 

Oh yeah, it's been like that since 06 hasn't it?

 

14 hours ago, JezMM said:

 

I don't recall ever hearing anything about that, but anyway, I was talking about Sonic game entries on the SteamDB. 

I don't remember the name of it, but I know Pete Capella was supposed to reprise Silver in it.

14 hours ago, JezMM said:

 

As for Denuvo, it's a program that operates in the background as an anti-piracy measure.  It's been criticised for being a resource hog on computers or otherwise being inefficient/undesirable, and SEGA were criticised heavily when it turned out that the PC version of Mania had been delayed - a day before release - to add it at the last minute.

Both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces use it, so if you want to buy either game on Steam, it automatically is installed to your PC.  Obviously it only runs when those games run, but it still annoys people because, like most intrusive anti-piracy measures, it punishes paying customers while pirates just find a way around it anyway (which they did in under a week, if I recall).

Oh, that shit about the gameplay recordings!  

[shdowhunt60]

???

It has nothing to do with gameplay recordings, it runs a check to Denuvo's own servers to make sure that the copy of the game that you're playing is yours. The problem is, is that what is going to happen with these games when these servers are no longer online? This is a thing that's happened to games in the past, there are games that are literally not playable any more because of this crap.

Never mind that the attitude behind DRM is shitty to begin with, it only inconveniences people that bought legit copies of the game and not the pirates that circumvent it, Denuvo is WILDLY inefficient in how it goes about doing this. If you want a fine example of this:

https://torrentfreak.com/latest-denuvo-anti-piracy-protection-falls-cracker-voksi-on-fire-180706/

“The game executable is 128MB big, of which just 5-6MB is the real game code. The rest of it is Denuvo. It’s the most bloated Denuvo I’ve ever seen.”

I mean, good fucking god, this is how ridiculous this shit is. Game code is being piled by layers upon layers of ridiculous convoluted encryption, and while I don't think the rumors of performance hits have ever been substantiated, I do find it mighty suspicious that when Doom 2016 removed its version of Denuvo that all of a sudden the game loads far quicker. Even a game as small and technically simple as Sonic Mania has noticeable pauses in between acts as the game, because it takes time to actually decrypt all that nonsense.

[superman43]

5 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I mean, good fucking god, this is how ridiculous this shit is. Game code is being piled by layers upon layers of ridiculous convoluted encryption, and while I don't think the rumors of performance hits have ever been substantiated, I do find it mighty suspicious that when Doom 2016 removed its version of Denuvo that all of a sudden the game loads far quicker. Even a game as small and technically simple as Sonic Mania has noticeable pauses in between acts as the game, because it takes time to actually decrypt all that nonsense.

Not....ehm... really. There is no noticeable change between Steam version and the pirated one, trust me, tested both. The reason why there are hiccups is because Mania loads all the act at the point, whereas on Sega Genesis got streamed throughout the level, thus being fluent from Act 1 to Act 2.

Plus the same reason is for the cutscenes at the start of the level. Game loads two different Act 1's for Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Whereas in Genesis games there weren't any cutscenes like that.

[Red Hot Jack]

What is Zavok doing in this screenshot taken from the Dev Diary of Mania Plus?

[Kittea]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 9:48 AM, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Unlikely but maybe they'll finally add a Chaos 0 and Shadow boss battle so those aspects of the game don't feel like false advertising anymore.

A boss fight against 2 or more of those generic death egg robots at the same time that we see early in the game would be a interesting extra DLC boss battle too.

That'd be fun ^^ Like others have said it's kind of disappointing that we didn't get to fight all the different clones.

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, Iko said:

I think it's possible that it's a new chapter/episode of the game.

When you finish the game, there is that 0,01% thing, that says that it's not finished yet, there is more; it's very likely that they planned it from the start.

Now, it's not necessarily a big thing, it may even be just 1 level, maybe rehashed like the ones in Episode Shadow, but I'm convinced that it's something that continues the story of the game.

And I think it's not a coincidence that it's going to be released/announced close to the release of Mania +

I think it may be connected, the two games were meant to be parallel after all... who knows, maybe they will add Mighty & Ray to Forces too (as Classic Sonic skins, like Shadow for Modern).

I don't know, it can be anything.

I hope they improved the controls in the meanwhile, but I know it won't happen.

I actually just assumed the remaining 0.01% was there to represent the Death Egg as that remains on the map at the end of the game if I remember correctly.

It'd be cool if we get some kind of epilogue ^^ Maybe to showcase how the progress of rebuilding the world is going?

I wouldn't mind Mighty and Ray themed skins too ^^

[DabigRG]

15 hours ago, Drifting Jack said:

What is Zavok doing in this screenshot taken from the Dev Diary of Mania Plus?

Zavok for Smash Ultimate.

Not, but seriously

Spoiler

Secret Final Boss: The Eggy Six

 

[Mad Convoy]

SONIC MANIA PLUS SPOILER WHICH CONFIRMS FORCES DLC IS PLANNED

Spoiler

Apparently Mania Plus has had its ending leaked, and in the leak there was some information about the Forces DLC. Supposedly it takes place after the good ending of Plus (Plus has a bad ending too, but it apparently there's no ties to Forces regarding it), where Classic Eggman gets sucked into a portal in much the same way Classic Sonic did, so I'm guessing its related to Classic Eggman somehow.

Looks like this is take two for connecting Mania and Forces to each other, which could be interesting. I just hope they handle Classic Eggman in Forces better than they did Classic Sonic.

 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

SONIC MANIA PLUS SPOILER WHICH CONFIRMS FORCES DLC IS PLANNED

It does not.

[Multikaris]

45 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It does not.

No, but it implies such. 

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

No, but it implies such. 

It does not.

It could potentially be linked to upcoming Forces DLC if they wanted to and if any exists in the first place, but there's nothing in Plus itself that implies any further connection with Forces.

[Forte-Metallix]

Straight from Aaron himself:

Make of that what you will. I know Aaron's not directly involved in game development, but I'm really not holding my breath.