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Should modern character like Shadow and Silver should be incorporated into the Classic formula to stay relevant?

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18 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

So many Modern characters could work. Amy is overdue at this point. Big is large but he'd fit right in with his character and artstyle. The Chaotix made their debut in a classic title. (Charmy would have to be reworked though) Blaze is from a separate dimension but could have her own introduction in the classic verse. Cream could finally be relevant again. 

Shadow and Silver, along with Eggman, the Babylon Rogues, and the Zeti, make the absolute least sense for this kind of a decision, though. And when people headline this question with these characters, it's just... mindnumbing. You could make gameplay for them, yeah, that's easy, but there's so many reasons why they shouldn't work. Why they shouldn't be there. Why they wouldn't add anything. Why anyone would be a better choice for this specific series.

No, they wouldn't be a good fit for the subseries. Doesn't mean other modern characters can't be used, though. And in the case where they couldn't be used, honestly, it shouldn't be a bad thing. Outside the fact that they already serve their purposes in their own games and whatever's left for them in the modern series' storyline, the sheer amount of potential for new, original characters for any new, original Mania-series games should completely eclipse the importance of their inclusion. Holding back an entire series' lineup, just for the sake of shoehorned pandering, isn't exactly something that should be a priority for any series.

 

 

*cough*

Speaking of which, I wonder how Mania-subseries-original characters would be handled and executed? Especially how they would be received compared to modern ones, given that Mighty and Ray drew a little ire. Would the critics be hypocritical about these new faces? And how would the designs flow? Would they give any “cool” vibes, or be more “kiddie”? Would they be one-off, or recur? 

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Shadow could warp through parts or use Chaos Blast similar to Hyper Sonic’s dash ability in S3&k (come to think about it, he’d be a Hyper Sonic by default without the emeralds at his most basic, which would be broken as is)

So teleport dashing, which I covered, or a screen clearing move.  Outside of a Rush-style gauntlet I fail to see how that would be useful, unless you put in Metroid or Kirby-style "buttons behind walls" that open doors or a Zelda-style "hit all the buttons at once" thing.  It's not really novel but I guess it's something?  You clearly have very different ideas of how gameplay in these games should be than I do, so I'm not going to argue with you about the inherent ability to easily destroy enemies in a Classic Sonic game.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Silver being able to catch and throw enemies and projectiles

Covered this.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

being able to levitate might make him even more easier to play that folks might not even bother with the other characters unless they’re wanting a challenge

If only there was a character that could fly that was intended to be easier than the others, damn, shame Classic Sonic is missing such a simple idea.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Strange how you call capturing and returning projectiles useless when such a thing would make a lot of bosses much easier. That sounds more broken as hell than anything given no other character would be able to do that. Just a simple jump, and another press of the button that deploys a shield to capture and throw objects would be enough to incorporate in a single-button stulyle gameplay—which I’m pretty sure no one else other than Cream being a close second would be able to do.

You're not doing yourself any favors with all this talk about "broken" moves and making bosses easier, because Classic Sonic is already pretty easy and it's bosses aren't any exception, especially with Tails.  I will say something about this Silver's telekinesis, though, and it's that if worked similar to Ori's projectile deflection move, it'd be pretty cool.  In that case, though, Ori just kicks off of projectiles to reflect them and propel himself in the opposite direction, so that's something anyone could do and would be pretty in-character for Sonic.

I think a big difference here is that you're bringing up a lot of these abilities that have to do with combat rather than movement.  Think of the abilities we have now: Sonic's Drop Dash, Tails' Flight, Knuckles' Glide & Climb, Mighty's Hammer Drop, and Ray's Cape Flight.  Out of those, only Mighty's is really an attack, but the primary use is to destroy obstacles beneath him and to drop to the ground faster.  Tails and Knuckles have damage hitboxes on their attacks but they're mostly secondary to the movement granted instead.  Adding more ways to attack was added in the Advance games, later, but they were mostly useless because the fastest way to kill things is always just to "Sonic" them.  Some abilities made bosses easier, but I hardly think a move that makes the already shaky bosses in the series even easier is a reason to include an entire character.

The exception to this is Sonic's Insta-Shield, I guess, which is pretty much an attack, straight up.  I think it can deflect projectiles with precision timing?  I'm not really sure.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

So then don’t go overboard with the concept then?

That's why I suggested that those ideas would make good level gimmicks, or even a fun boss.  A projectile or reflector is going to be bare-minimum useful in a Sonic level without a bunch of turrets or purposely out of reach enemies to serve them, which will actively hamper other characters.  Some sort of object manipulation would be pointless unless every level was littered with stuff to throw or enemies purposely charged at you Samus Returns style to force you to fling them away (or you could just jump or charge a spin dash).

Tails' and Knuckles' abilities operate using basic level design.  Tails is forgiveness for lack of platforming prowess and Knuckles climbs walls, which exist everywhere by default, as well as letting you skip some horizontal platforming sections at the cost of being committed to a glide.  There aren't Flight Rings placed around the level like Sonic Adventure or Grip Walls that Knuckles is only allowed to climb like in Sonic Boom, they just do their thing when you want them to explore.  Combat and reactionary abilities aren't nearly as useful, especially in a game all about exploration and moving forward like Classic Sonic.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Sounds more like you’re making excuses based on your personal grudges than anything, dude. And if that’s the case, then I couldn’t care any less how your personal hate for a character means they shouldn’t be playable regardless of whether they can work or not.

You want to rip your toenails out instead? Be my fucking guest and do it.

Whoof, man.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't care for most Sonic characters, but it sounds like you're taking it personally.  I don't even think your ideas are bad, they just don't fit into my personal view of how Classic Sonic games should play.  If anything, they should make games where levels can revolve around these abilities in particular to get the most out of them.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But if certain sects of fans are alienated just because Shadow and Silver are playable, optional characters (because you seem to have forgotten that part of the Classic games)

Are you trying to imply that something being optional means anything at all for how a game is received?  Something being optional isn't going to cause people to ignore its existence.  People get upset for no reason over easy modes and the like all the time, despite being optional.  I'm not condoning it, but it would absolutely happen.  Shadow is not a particularly beloved character outside of the Sonic fandom.  He's still remembered as the cartoon hedgehog who guns down civilians while edgy nu-metal plays.

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

then not only do the Classic Fans seriously need to practice what they preach and make cases based on interesting and fun gameplay mechanics being important as they’re so quick to point out, but they honestly need to grow up and stop throwing such tantrums like that to begin with—it amazes me how quick they are to talk about gameplay only to make every excuse under the sun they can come up with to call it either pointless or an impossibility only when it suits their convenience.

This kind of seems like a general problem you have with a group of people.  I think Mighty and Ray are pretty pointless, honestly, as their abilities don't really add anything to Mania.  I'm not going to die, because it's literally just more Mania and I'm fine with that, because Mania was incredibly well-made, but I'm not going to act like "WOAH MIGHTY AND RAY DEEPEN THIS GAME SO MUCH, BEST ADDITIONS OF ALL TIME".

I wouldn't die if Shadow and Silver were added to Mania 2 or whatever hypothetical game, either, but much like Mighty and Ray, I can't see them adding anything other than fanservice.  As long as the game was well-made, I wouldn't care.  But everything you've said simply doesn't sound fun to me.  It sounds like added tedium on top of a good formula simply for the sake of throwing in more characters.  If they're going to add more characters, I'd prefer they just be skins of other characters so they can still fine-tune the levels for three characters instead of adding a bunch of extra new combat shit to cater to new abilities.

And in that case, if they're just sprite swaps?  Go ham!  Add in fuckin' Sanic for all I care.  I'm starting to realize that my argument is more just "I don't want there to be a ton of playable characters in these games" rather than any certain ones being barred.

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26 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

Holding back an entire series' lineup, just for the sake of shoehorned pandering, isn't exactly something that should be a priority for any series.

 

So when they brought back Mighty and Ray and tweaked their abilities to suit the game what do you call that? Is it not pandering because you like those characters? 

Mighty and Ray are literal nobodies who didn't have a presence in the series for most of it's run. Their inclusion is based on their association with the Classic aesthetic and the curiosity that comes with that. They weren't characters that had stories and the few mechanics built around them were largely ignored. Their inclusion is pandering to that audience that loves niche Classic stuff just like a good chunk of Sonic Mania's aesthetic is. If you want to talk about holding back a lineup, it was widely agreed Amy was snubbed in favor of these characters even by the few fans they had. 

No matter who they pick, it could be defined as pandering. I don't know how you escape that label aside from contextualizing everything and giving it a specific, unique purpose in the game, but Mania has gotten off scott free snatching entire levels and sequences out of other games for the sake of fan-service and fun, so what's the big deal with this? 

You guys are acting like you're defending a carefully curated and constructed world/story when Sonic Mania's just by and large dedicated to bending over backwards for the sake of  fan wank. That's fine, but accusations of pandering for throwing another part of the franchise a bone are kind of ridiculous in the context of this "series" or "universe". It literally only exists because you guys wouldn't stop crying for this shit back in any way possible. It's the definition of pandering. 

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In my opinion Mania (or it's sequel) should have Modern DLC, with as many characters as possible in separate packages.

That way

1 Classic purist won't have Shadow in their game, while keeping Modern fans happy

2 sales of DLC will give us clear number how much people care for each character

3 You don't have to worry how to implement 11 characters into a single story

Granted you still have to think through their gameplays, but that's obvious.

Obviously Amy gets a priority. Also, I wonder if Chaotix will show in later Mania in same rules as Mighty&Ray. They are classics too, technically speaking.

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37 minutes ago, Jambone said:

So teleport dashing, which I covered, or a screen clearing move.  Outside of a Rush-style gauntlet I fail to see how that would be useful, unless you put in Metroid or Kirby-style "buttons behind walls" that open doors or a Zelda-style "hit all the buttons at once" thing.  It's not really novel but I guess it's something? 

Neither is Mighty’s Hammer Drop or Ray’s flight. That didn’t stop them, now did it?

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If only there was a character that could fly that was intended to be easier than the others, damn, shame Classic Sonic is missing such a simple idea.

You mean Tails? So what?

Doesn’t really stop another character with some different mechanics being put in despite that.

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You're not doing yourself any favors with all this talk about "broken" moves and making bosses easier, because Classic Sonic is already pretty easy and it's bosses aren't any exception, especially with Tails. 

And you’re not doing yourself any favors scoffing at a possible idea just because you’re firmly rooted in your hate of these characters. So you can continue this back and forth all you want on your own.

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Whoof, man.  I'll be the first to admit that I don't care for most Sonic characters, but it sounds like you're taking it personally.  I don't even think your ideas are bad, they just don't fit into my personal view of how Classic Sonic games should play.

No, I’m not taking it personally.

You’re just coming off as rude, and being treated as such.

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Are you trying to imply that something being optional means anything at all for how a game is received?  Something being optional isn't going to cause people to ignore its existence. 

No, I’m implying thay something being optional means you don’t have to play the damn thing if you find it plays badly to you.

It’s as simple as that. How you even came up with that idea is beyond me. And if you want to talk about how it’s received, that just goes right to my point of how the gameplay should be interesting and fun to play in this hypothetical Classic game with Shadow and Silver’s inclusion—if they were in the game and fun to play (and stick with that caveat, because already I know that if they play terrible that people won’t like them) as much as they do playing as Sonic, Tails, and the rest of them, where in the hell is any bad reception going to flare up against them? You’d think if they were fun to play, people wouldn’t hate them, now would they?

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I’m more curious to these questions about how they shouldn’t work and much of that considering that 9 times out of 10, it’s said out of personal spite or because someone just doesn’t want it to simply be a thing. And yes, I’m gonna defend the Zeti on this one too.

Explain to me how, for one, if it’s easy to make gameplay for them, that they wouldn’t add anything and how that would make a poor choice anyway. That’s just being contradicting when everyone else as you just claimed don’t seem to fall into this hypothetical problem.

And I really want to hear why, because I don’t buy it.

 

Why wouldn't they work?

Shadow's entire shtick is tied with the ARK, an incident that has yet to happen in Mania. Without this backstory, his entire character doesn't make any sense, and we've already seen the result of this instance in Rise of Lyric; and with Mania's case, it just further screws with the chronology. Silver is tied to the future and apocalyptic scenarios. That's more workable since he can travel back further in time, but he's still bound to the future, and therefore needs A) the world ending situations that he intends to stop from occurring, or B] a darn good reason to even bother traveling through time.

They both excel in narrative-driven storylines, both because of their purpose as characters, but also through 90% of their character. Shadow is a serious brooder otherwise, but what gets me with Silver is that he's literally a blank slate without dialog. Neither of them lend themselves to pantomime scenarios whatsoever, and that's a huuuuuge issue when every other character in the modern series has at least some form of personality to display through their design and character otherwise. One doesn't lend himself to the situation at all, the other nearly doesn't exist!

Gameplay is workable, yes, but you can apply that to literally any other character. And if we actually change these characters in any drastic way to make up for these shortcomings... what's the difference between them or better conceived characters for this direction, outside of fanservice, specifically??? They don't make sense to appear here, they're both tied to scenarios and chronology that these games won't likely ever touch on, they don't even get their chances to shine like diamonds as the crazy OP shonen characters they were conceived as in these games. What is the point, especially to base an entire argument of the modern characters around them, specifically?

Also why you defending Zeti no one likes Zeti

1 hour ago, Josh said:

So when they brought back Mighty and Ray and tweaked their abilities to suit the game what do you call that? Is it not pandering because you like those characters? 

Mighty and Ray are literal nobodies who didn't have a presence in the series for most of it's run. Their inclusion is based on their association with the Classic aesthetic and the curiosity that comes with that. They weren't characters that had stories and the few mechanics built around them were largely ignored. Their inclusion is pandering to that audience that loves niche Classic stuff just like a good chunk of Sonic Mania's aesthetic is. If you want to talk about holding back a lineup, it was widely agreed Amy was snubbed in favor of these characters even by the few fans they had. 

No matter who they pick, it could be defined as pandering. I don't know how you escape that label aside from contextualizing everything and giving it a specific, unique purpose in the game, but Mania has gotten off scott free snatching entire levels and sequences out of other games for the sake of fan-service and fun, so what's the big deal with this? 

You guys are acting like you're defending a carefully curated and constructed world/story when Sonic Mania's just by and large dedicated to bending over backwards for the sake of  fan wank. That's fine, but accusations of pandering for throwing another part of the franchise a bone are kind of ridiculous in the context of this "series" or "universe". It literally only exists because you guys wouldn't stop crying for this shit back in any way possible. It's the definition of pandering. 

Pandering. You're assuming that I like those characters, as well.

There is a difference, though. They're characters that are already well suited for the game provided, as is the rest of the modern cast. It still counts as pandering somewhat, and new content could be created still, yes, and I'd still be more in favor of that due to the nature of Mighty and Ray as characters, but it's not that extreme at all. They're just another character in an established roster.

Shadow and Silver would definitely be bending over backwards for the sake of fanwank. And I'm not fine with that. It'd be like bringing Tikal back and into Mania just because. Heck, Knuckles still shouldn't be playable in every game still; we're back to the point where he actually has a job to do. I know I'm not defending a carefully curated universe; I just went over why I'm reserved about Whitehead and co. handling the story now in a separate status update because they're continuing the trend. But am I really supposed to throw any and all logic and continuity to the wayside, just because Sonic Team is bad at it? Whenever that happens those are always negative points for those games regardless to me. I'm not gonna fight that; I legit hate it when that happens, no matter how many times it's happened so far.

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So Shadow and Silver are suddenly super bound to the story arc they appeared in because reasons, but going the extra mile to give Blaze her third origin story in the form of a classicverse introduction makes sense. Ok.

Also apparently Silver doesn't have a personality now, I guess. Because no one here cares about what's in the games and is fine with talking out of their ass in the middle of their big word rational sonic the hedgehog essay. Those games are the B A D ones so I can say what I want.

We really could just save a bunch of time by skipping to the part where you say you don't want them in the game because you don't like them. That's at least understandable, since I don't like Mighty and Ray.

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33 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

They both excel in narrative-driven storylines, both because of their purpose as characters, but also through 90% of their character. Shadow is a serious brooder otherwise, but what gets me with Silver is that he's literally a blank slate without dialog. Neither of them lend themselves to pantomime scenarios whatsoever, and that's a huuuuuge issue when every other character in the modern series has at least some form of personality to display through their design and character otherwise. One doesn't lend himself to the situation at all, the other nearly doesn't exist!

Okay, no. This part here is just plain ridiculous. 

Neither they nor anyone else in the Modern cast have lend themselves to pantomime scenarios for the sole fact that they’ve never been in one. And to say thay Shadow and Silver don’t have any form of personality to display through their design and character makes little sense when that’s part of the whole design process to begin with.

Nevermind mind how little narrative there is in the Classic games, or ignoring that Mania itself hopped over timelines and dimensions and all the logic that’s supposed to go into that thanks to the Phantom Ruby. Yet you mean to tell me that you can’t create a few choice emotions for them to display after they’ve shown far more emotion in more story heavy titles? It’s not like you making a huge story in a classic game, dude. There’s a lot you can choose from and display them in a much simpler story.

This is just a case of not knowing how all this even works.

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Gameplay is workable, yes, but you can apply that to literally any other character. And if we actually change these characters in any drastic way to make up for these shortcomings... what's the difference between them or better conceived characters for this direction, outside of fanservice, specifically???

Absolutely nothing. That’s the difference.

Which makes even less sense to exclude them when it sounds less about being “better conceived” and more about personal favoritism.

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They don't make sense to appear here, they're both tied to scenarios and chronology that these games won't likely ever touch on, they don't even get their chances to shine like diamonds as the crazy OP shonen characters they were conceived as in these games. What is the point, especially to base an entire argument of the modern characters around them, specifically?

You know, I could ask you the very same question towards the other members of the modern cast since you don’t seem to hold them to most of the same standards you just outlined.

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Also why you defending Zeti no one likes Zeti

I don’t give a shit who likes the Zeti or not (in fact, I don’t like them either), but they shouldn’t be subject to hypocrisy either.

 

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I think it'd be fun. Don't think they'll ever do it, but I wouldn't be opposed. 

That said, they certainly do not need to get into the classic brand to "stay relevant". Contrary to what some may say, the modern brand is just as strong right now, and Mania is pretty much just getting the focus right now because the DLC is out in a few days. E3 showed that SEGA are just about ready to move onto TSR as the focus. 

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

So Shadow and Silver are suddenly super bound to the story arc they appeared in because reasons, but going the extra mile to give Blaze her third origin story in the form of a classicverse introduction makes sense. Ok.

Also apparently Silver doesn't have a personality now, I guess. Because no one here cares about what's in the games and is fine with talking out of their ass in the middle of their big word rational sonic the hedgehog essay. Those games are the B A D ones so I can say what I want.

We really could just save a bunch of time by skipping to the part where you say you don't want them in the game because you don't like them. That's at least understandable, since I don't like Mighty and Ray.

Because that'd be a lie?

I just said that Silver is a blank slate without dialog. He's hopeful, he's naive, he's young and inexperienced as a hero. They're all traits apparent and workable in an actual narrative, with writing and dialog to express it, but unless you really draw things out and make elaborate cutscenes dedicated to.. some sort of story beat that can showcase it, yes, he does become a blank slate when it's absent. His design isn't particularly expressive, his personality isn't an exaggerated caricature, unlike everyone else... there's not much more to work with, other than that he has powers and is from the future. (which, to be fair, is something unique, at least)

I don't understand why I'm being treated like the idiot classic fanboy here. Modern is my favorite iteration of the franchise, regardless of how I feel about it's execution. In fact I stan for a lot of the underrated aspects of the franchise, even if only for their potential. I thought I made that pretty clear during my time here...

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Okay, no. This part here is just plain ridiculous. 

Neither they nor anyone else in the Modern cast have lend themselves to pantomime scenarios for the sole fact that they’ve never been in one. And to say thay Shadow and Silver don’t have any form of personality to display through their design and character makes little sense when that’s part of the whole design process to begin with.

Nevermind mind how little narrative there is in the Classic games, or ignoring that Mania itself hopped over timelines and dimensions and all the logic that’s supposed to go into that thanks to the Phantom Ruby. Yet you mean to tell me that you can’t create a few choice emotions for them to display after they’ve shown far more emotion in more story heavy titles? It’s not like you making a huge story in a classic game, dude. There’s a lot you can choose from and display them in a much simpler story.

This is just a case of not knowing how all this even works.

Absolutely nothing. That’s the difference.

Which makes even less sense to exclude them when it sounds less about being “better conceived” and more about personal favoritism.

You I could ask you the very same question towards the other modern cast since you don’t seem to hold them to most of the same standards you just outlined.

I don’t give a shit who likes the Zeti or not (in fact, I don’t like them either), but they shouldn’t be subject to hypocrisy either.

 

And if y'all can stop with the arguing in bad faith that'd be nice as well.

Shadow can convey personality through his design. He was actually well designed around his brooding personality. That's basically it, though, and standing looking angry is no different than Mighty's shtick. (or even Sonic considering the lack of additional animations so far) That's why I singled out Silver in this case specifically, which still stands imo.

Mania's use of the Phantom Ruby was my least favorite aspect of the storytelling, but it never actually broke the rules of the world much, nor do I expect or want it to stick around to keep that opportunity open tbh. Maybe for a Mania... Modern, that might be neat to see and give this fanservice some actual merit, but I'm not betting the farm on that...

You seem to be convinced none of this is an issue, though. I don't agree at all, but I've already said my piece on why they're ill-fit and why they shouldn't really matter when it comes to the rest of the cast or the series in general, so I don't see much of a point to keep it up tbh. I may like the characters in their own way, but I do think my priorities are moreso on the actual context they'd be used in, yeah

In fact that's the way I'd put myself as for a lot of the characters. Like a lot of people were complaining when I thought expecting them to bring Blaze on board for Forces would have been dumb, because she's in another dimension. It's not that I don't like Blaze, it's just that it seemed incredibly dumb to be expecting her in a game where she wasn't needed by the plot. The argument was "But it's Generations 2.0". Still think that's dumb. And I don't see why I should be raked over the coals for that; it is dumb. But I don't have a hate boner for the character herself because of it, good grief...

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In a 2D game?  Sure, why not.  I've thought for a long time that the 2D arm of the franchise should be resumed and retained to run alongside the 3D arm, it being the most popular form the franchise has ever taken; Mania's success only boosts that argument, as its success stems as much from being a well-designed 2D game as from being in the nostalgic Classic vein.  Back in the day I thought he was a logical character to add to a potential Sonic Rush 3, for instance.

But in a specifically Classic game?  Shadow and Silver.  I don't see it.  Aesthetically and narratively, their appearance, power, backstory doesn't fit the mould.  The Classic games are low-power, low-stakes cartoons in which the abilities the characters have are basic and they're out to save an island at most.  So the character who was raised aboard a secret government space laboratory and whose family were massacred and who has alien magic powers that can do just about anything?  The telekinetic time-traveller from a post-apocalyptic future?  These are high-stakes, high-power characters from big-picture worlds whose backstories are full of complexity and pain.  Shadow might work as a villain and final boss at best, but even that'd be a stretch.  They aren't compatible with Classic, simple as that.

There are characters you could convert to the Classic universe without too much trouble.  Rouge, dial her back to her jewel thief days and she's just a more amiable Fang, stick her in the Hooligans and she's fine.  Cream is Amy's Tails, dial back the Chao lore a bit and she's fine.  Big works.  The Chaotix are already there, no matter how much Iizuka likes to deny it.  Blaze would be a stretch, but princess-from-another-world is a closer fit for the whimsy of the classic world, and in that respect it's telling that she originates from a 2D game.  But for Shadow and Silver, you would have to change enough of them that they wouldn't be Shadow and Silver any more; and besides, who is actually asking for them there?  Classic fans aren't interested in them, Modern fans aren't interested in Classic, so in the end nobody is happy.  Well, nobody is happy anyway, but that's the Sonic franchise for you.

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14 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

The classic formula is fine without Shadow and Silver and those charactesr doesn't need 2D. What the series need is for SEGA to start giving a damn about the 3D series and stop trying to half ass it with Classic/2D pandering. 

A-fucking-men! You have modern 3d fans to serve too y'all know? 

 

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I can see it happen. Whitehead has said that he'd be open to use these characters, and if the Mania branch continues going strong, Sonic Team will eventually grant permission to use Amy and the Chaotix for sequels. From there on out there's not much deeper you can go into the Classic universe, other than Metal Sonic and Fang who are more suited for antagonistic roles. Not to mention, if the classic Chaotix do join, they would no doubt be retconned to their detective selves and might be a three-in-one character, which would already provide two links to Heroes and the modern universe

It will be several years though until Sonic Team will even consider crossing the two """dimensions""" in ways other than "Wow, Classic Sonic joins yet another modern Sonic game!"

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I dunno why you'd think Mania would be enough to overturn rules on modern characters that have been held for over 20 years now. 

Mania's success didn't prevent Sonic Team from imposing the super form mandate in a form, and it doesn't seem the Chaotix get even a cameo in Mania/Plus like Amy does, which you would think they'd allow when the game (and Plus especially) homages so heavily from the game they originated in.

Classic characters being brought back after all this time is one thing because they've basically been left abandoned to rot in that time. Modern to classic is a different ball game. 

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Most of these 20 years, there wasn't even a reason to wonder about the connection between modern-classic characters, and in Generations the side characters had so little focus there was no need to bring in any counterparts, especially hardly-remembered ones. The impression I get from Iizuka is that he still sees Mania as a one-off affair, which is why he was quickly willing to drop one of his rules and bring back two forgotten characters. No doubt however Sega will want a successor out by 2020~2021 including new additions, and if the classic branch continues to coexist alongside Modern Sonic, Sonic Team will want to push their own active cast as well.

Chaotix has had many references over the years and now Mania is filled with them to the point where these titular characters are an obvious omission, so there clearly is interest to recreate something from that game in some form,  and Iizuka would probably be willing to change his shaky set of rules once again if the conditions are right, especially now that the classic dimension is its own thing and Classic Sonic knows pretty much all of the modern cast.

A reference to classic Vector, Espio and Charmy wouldn't have been much use since their dynamic is ambigious to this day, and if they ever return some explaining/retcon will be necessary. I was most surprised to see Amy get such a minor reference considering the classic form has been around, but again I don't think this will hold for long.

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Thing is IIzuka didn't drop one of his rules. Mighty and Ray are still barred from Modern, but for those years Modern was all that existed, not classic. 

And I don't think SEGA will be in a rush to get other characters in there if they don't consider the classic branch the one that's aimed at the same audience as the modern branch. You could probably get away with the classic trio, Eggman and Metal Sonic forever in the classic branch, to be honest. 

I don't think the elements being referenced means the same as what you think. It doesn't show interest to recreate the game to me, it showed that the Mania team were willing to reference as much as they could out of it (what with it being the closest to Mania in terms of what power it's presented at). It doesn't reflect anything about Sonic Team's interests, especially not when the elements were mostly small elements sprinkled in and not full-on levels from the game or such. 

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It would undermine the premise of the "Classic Sonic" sub-brand, to the point where there'd be virtually no distinction at all.

There are plenty of existing characters for a Mania sequel to incorporate - Amy, Charmy, Vector, Espio, Honey, Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, the Sonic Band.

There is a notable lack of girl characters, but I'd rather see the Mania team create a brand new girl character specifically designed to fit the "Classic Sonic" aesthetic, rather than attempt to reverse-engineer Blaze or Cream.

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I guess we'll just have to wait and see how that part of the franchise evolves. They definitely tried to bring the Mania audience to Forces by linking the games, which backfired, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them continue to try. You mention they might keep the same cast, but now the Mania universe expanded within a year, and Iizuka would never even have thought of adding Mighty and Ray if it wasn't for the team, hence he said they were "sealed" characters for him, which seems not very different to his other rules.

I see how bringing back their namesake game might clash with Sonic Team's intent of the characters by throwing them in with Mighty and Knuckles who some people (heck, including Aaron Webber) wrongly consider Chaotix members to this day, but the classic versions of the characters do exist and could easily be implemented into the Mania universe as detectives with slightly adjusted designs. Amy and them seem like the logical next step for future Mania titles, while characters like Shadow will stay more prominent in the modern universe until one day, where we might or might not get a neo-classic title like Advance.

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I’m now wondering if certain classic characters can even be used by the Mania team. Given how only a few of them have been referenced outside of either the comics or Sonic Tweet, except when their games are re-released. Also, I still wonder about what sort of new characters the mania team would add.

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8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

1 Classic purist won't have Shadow in their game, while keeping Modern fans happy

 

Who gives a shit about this, why are you giving a shit about someone being upset about this. If they are, fuck em. 

"Sometimes characters you don't like, but other people do are optionally selectable in a video game. Stop being a big baby and play the ones you like. " That's the response that should be given to them

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6 hours ago, The Deleter said:

Because that'd be a lie?

I just said that Silver is a blank slate without dialog. He's hopeful, he's naive, he's young and inexperienced as a hero. They're all traits apparent and workable in an actual narrative, with writing and dialog to express it, but unless you really draw things out and make elaborate cutscenes dedicated to.. some sort of story beat that can showcase it, yes, he does become a blank slate when it's absent. His design isn't particularly expressive, his personality isn't an exaggerated caricature, unlike everyone else... there's not much more to work with, other than that he has powers and is from the future. (which, to be fair, is something unique, at least)

I don't understand why I'm being treated like the idiot classic fanboy here. Modern is my favorite iteration of the franchise, regardless of how I feel about it's execution. In fact I stan for a lot of the underrated aspects of the franchise, even if only for their potential. I thought I made that pretty clear during my time here...

 

I'll admit to misreading the comment about Silver's personality, but I don't see how Silver's naivety couldn't shine through in silent situations the same way Knuckles's ego or Ray's entirely new goofball persona does. His design isn't an issue because the fundamentals of a Sonic design rarely are the problem of how expressive they are. It's almost always down to the actual skill of the animators involved. Sonic's attitude and range of expressions rarely shines through in Sonic 06 despite everything because of how poorly animated the cutscenes are. Sonic Unleashed goes a long way toward fixing a lot of this, and that game was only 2 years later and uses the same design, just heavily tweaked. 

Again, I legitimately apologize for misreading you, but I still think the logic around excluding Shadow and Silver is flawed. 

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9 hours ago, The Deleter said:

 

Shadow and Silver, along with Eggman, the Babylon Rogues, and the Zeti, make the absolute least sense for this kind of a decision, though. And when people headline this question with these characters, it's just... mindnumbing. You could make gameplay for them, yeah, that's easy, but there's so many reasons why they shouldn't work. Why they shouldn't be there. Why they wouldn't add anything. Why anyone would be a better choice for this specific series.

 

Uh, I don't know about Eggman and the Deadly Six, as they'd almost certainly be bosses anyway. And it's not like most of the later don't already have functional abilities in 2d anyway.

Okay, Zeena is a bit of a blank, but I'm sure you could come up with something.

9 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

streamline Silver's telekinesis all the way down to Klonoa levels so it's just catching and either throwing or vaulting off enemies. Boom, done. That wasn't so hard, was it?

Oh wow, that actually sounds like a good step around it!

6 hours ago, FFWF said:

Cream is Amy's Tails, dial back the Chao lore a bit and she's fine.  Big works.  

Chao lore?

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

"Sometimes characters you don't like, but other people do are optionally selectable in a video game. Stop being a big baby and play the ones you like. " That's the response that should be given to them

I forgot who originally said this, but there is some truth to it.

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Quote

And if y'all can stop with the arguing in bad faith that'd be nice as well.

Well, sorry about that, but after hearing people talk about making good gameplay and such be good only to completely ignore that in favor of personal grudges as this topic has shown me, I don’t think I should put much faith in what some people say at this point.

Quote

You seem to be convinced none of this is an issue, though.

Because it isn’t. Not in the way many people here are making a case on. 

It’s not like these two characters can’t be found a way to work mechanically in a classic styled game, and it’s not like you can’t make a simple plot to work them in (don’t like the Phantom Ruby? Bring out the Time Stones then, that wasn’t hard for me to come up with). They wouldn’t be anymore complex from it either, no more complex than Mania was revisiting whole levels of past games, so it really doesn’t matter if they were in story-heavier games given you’d hardly be taking anything from their character giving them a brief description of who they are and why they’re around.

But none of that is really the reason why people are against it. The only reason most people are saying this is because they simply hate these characters and don’t want them around, and you can see that in this very topic where most people against the idea have made that clear. The only legit reason that’s actually been pointed out a number of times over why they can’t is because of the forced separation of Modern and Classic sides, so none of the Modern cast, even those that are well liked, would be given that chance. And while I’m not saying they should be forced to like a character they don’t (in all fairness, some have called out Mighty and Ray for not being as interesting, but not to the venomous extent as the point of this topic), you’d think they’d make a more concrete point about it than that.

 

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4 hours ago, LukA8 said:

I see how bringing back their namesake game might clash with Sonic Team's intent of the characters by throwing them in with Mighty and Knuckles who some people (heck, including Aaron Webber) wrongly consider Chaotix members to this day, but the classic versions of the characters do exist and could easily be implemented into the Mania universe as detectives with slightly adjusted designs.

I'm super curious how they might handle that. Would they revert to their classic designs while maintaining their modern characterization, or get adjusted ones to better fit the modern look?  I'm rather attached to Vector's old school appearance and would love to see it officially dubbed his "classic" design.

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