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Should modern character like Shadow and Silver should be incorporated into the Classic formula to stay relevant?

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Mania was more popular than any main modern sonic event since both sonic adventures. I think I speak for all of us that the modern characters have no chance in being universally praised in the modern context compared to the Classic cast, so how would you feel if shadow, rouge, cream, blaze was put in classic style to maybe expand their own popularity to the nostalgistic fans and market more into better gaming molds that has a more established focus on positive fan hype than the modern games now.

Plus shadow needs to have his own 2d platform gameplay. It would be a better set up to making shadow more of a traditional sonic 2d implement. His current gameplay still sucks compared to the game he stared in that wad nothing compared to Sonics speedy 3d free roaming speed play on Sa1 and the original trilogy.

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Some site already used the "shitty friend" term to describe Mighty and Ray (I've seen that on at least 2 french sites, IDK if it's the same on english website). So I'm not sure than being in a classic game would help them to "stay relevant" more than simply having Modern/3D title that are engaging.

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I think the people who found Shadow dumb would still probably find him dumb regardless of which game he's in. Because by the time you remove the stuff that they don't like about Shadow, he's not Shadow. Same for Silver and the like.  

It's not as easy as "stick it in a Classic game and people will like it." Shit, I saw people uneasy when Mighty and Ray were announced. 

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People don't like the Classic characters because they're Classic characters, they like them because they're fun to play as and don't have any dumb baggage attached to them like Silver and Shadow.

Even if you stick them in the Classic formula, people will still think they're dumb characters and won't like them just because they're 2D sprites now.

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7 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

People don't like the Classic characters because they're Classic characters, they like them because they're fun to play as and don't have any dumb baggage attached to them like Silver and Shadow.

Even if you stick them in the Classic formula, people will still think they're dumb characters and won't like them just because they're 2D sprites now.

Just because the classics are attached to fun game play, doesn't mean Shadow and Silver can't be. And if their characters are popular shouldnt their game play evolve with the core main character and his friends from a classic standpoint.

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This would never work , even Shadow and Silver were redesigned and played in classic fashion , Classic Sonic audience will complain that Shadow and Silver are ruining classic formula , since they despise  everything from modern Sonic . Let Classic Sonic for Classic fans and Modern Sonic for Modern fans .

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Good luck convincing many classic purists that anybody beyond Sonic/Tails/Knuckles should ever be playable... Mighty and Ray has maybe been a good start to warming them up to the concept of other characters being playable tho. Time will tell!

Now is it necessary to put modern era characters into the classic style series in order to help boost their rep with the fans? I don't think so... It's not like modern style games will die off... they just need to do a better job with them and then opinions will change over time. Then again I guess it also couldn't hurt adding in modern characters into the classic universe if they are handled correctly, such as offering unique fun gameplay and not tossing them in there just for the sake of it. The games cast would need to rotate between games so that each game don't get flooded and unfocused, which Is fine by me because we really honestly don't need Tails & Knuckles in every single new classic style game.

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I wouldn't mind a couple of Modern dimension characters making the jump to the Classic dimension in some form, but not Shadow and Silver. They don't really fit with the classic style well, and if we're going to have these two separate dimensions, I'd prefer if they each retain their own separate identities rather than mixing elements thoughtlessly and ending up with two muddy and indistinct dimensions.

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So long as Sega intends to have Classic and Modern co-exist and appeal to different groups, I'd say it's unnecessary to have characters redesigned for use in Classic games and vice versa. If at some point Sega decided to hypothetically kill off the Modern Sonic brand while still giving Classic Sonic new content, then yeah I could see them adapting previously modern only characters into Classic Sonic, especially the popular ones like Shadow.

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It wouldn't hurt, as long as you tweaked their designs to fit. That can be done. They're more serious characters but there's not much more to them than Metal Sonic at the end of the day. Shadow's just grumpy and Silver's...really not that serious of a serious guy at all, when you get down to it.  

I haven't seriously thought about how to integrate them, but that's because I genuinely believe it doesn't take a ton of thought. Letting Tyson Hesse or whoever take a crack at their designs would be fun. 

The tricky thing is the power sets, but that just means you can pick and choose the power you want the most to be their movement gimmick and leave the rest by the wayside. Characters like Amy and Cream are a lot easier because they've had a 2D gameplay style before.

It could be done, it'd just take a little creativity. The guys who developed Mania have plenty of that going for them though, so I wouldn't worry if that was what they decided to do

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4 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

People don't like the Classic characters because they're Classic characters, they like them because they're fun to play as and don't have any dumb baggage attached to them like Silver and Shadow.

Even if you stick them in the Classic formula, people will still think they're dumb characters and won't like them just because they're 2D sprites now.

I personally not going to put characters on a pedestal just because they're classic. Take Mighty and Ray as an example of characters that I find to be pretty meh in key areas such as design (they look generic, with Ray being the worst as he feels more like a background extra than an actual main character) and gameplay (neither did in Mania anything particularly impressive nor added to the evolution of playable characters like Tails and Knuckles did in S3&K or Amy in Advance).

I would gladly swap them both in favor of modern characters like Cream (regardless of my opinion of her personality, her character design is one that fits perfectly with the more innocent classic era), Blaze and Big. Maybe Rouge too, though the main issue would be with how to adapt her particular body proportions within the classic style aesthetics and still make her look good.

If there's a character that I don't think would work, it would definitively be Shadow. For starters, he and his lore are product of a very specific era and don't have a universal appeal despite his popularity. Likewise, without his backstory, Shadow would not be Shadow... Just look at Boom to see how without that element, the character loses it's sympathetic part and at worst, becomes a one dimentional jerk.

Then there is the power scales between characters, with modern Sonic having picked on some of the worst aspects of Shonen that resulted in previously established characters being left behind because of how the arrival of super-powered types like Shadow rendered them as no longer being "good enough" to be part of the action. In this regard, the classic era was more balanced and fair IMO.

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Yeah, no thanks.  The Classic cast is big enough to support itself without drawing from Modern characters I don't give a shit about.  Most Modern Sonic characters don't really have a "role" anymore so much as they just exist to be drawn upon when needed to fill a quota, so it's not like there's some sort of dire need to bring them to the Classic game(s) because they're missing out on some amazing features or story.

Tails and Amy pretty much fill the same roles as they do in the Modern games, except Tails is actually useful and Amy...hasn't done anything yet.

Metal and Knuckles play Shadow's two main parts already and don't have his baggage.  Metal is the doppleganger (except he has an actual motive to fight Sonic instead of just being another friend) and Classic Knuckles is the friendly rival that isn't always around but he's really strong and fights for his own reasons (protecting the Floating Island at all costs instead of...government...or something?  Neither are great but Knuckles' is at least personal while Shadow works for the people who killed his human sister-girlfriend for some reason).

Fang has plenty of potential to be a Wario-type character who isn't necessarily evil but selfish and it puts him at odds with Sonic.  He'd probably take jobs from Egg as well, and bigger rogue's gallery is always nice.  Rouge would be his most direct counterpart, likely.

Bean and Bark are pretty much blank slates, although if they ever actually show up I'd imagine they'll probably be anti-heroes like they were in the comics if Mania is anything to go by.  Again, rogue's gallery.  They don't really correlate to any characters in particular.

Mighty and Ray fit the "extra friends that are just there" category that Silver and Blaze fill.  Silver hasn't done anything of note since his debut, but then neither have Might and Ray, so it works out.  Blaze barely exists anymore.

The Chaotix are also classic characters, but I'm not sure we'll see them show up.

Even without the Chaotix, Classic's cast is big enough without introducing more dumb characters who will stand around and do nothing.  Shadow and Silver already add next to nothing to Sonic as is, and people who don't like Modern Sonic (read: most non-Sonic fans) will start to get leery when Modern characters start showing up for no reason other than "Remember THESE characters that most people associate with why Sonic is shitty?!"  It's a bad idea on all accounts.  If you like Shadow or Silver and want them to be in better games, stop buying mediocre games from Sonic Team and encourage them to make better ones.

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So, in a subset of a franchise that is more focused on gameplay than story, everyone who’s against them being in the Classic series talks about everything about them except gameplay for Shadow and Silver and how that wouldn’t work.

...okay, glad to see how that works then.

As far as them being in Classic series games, I don’t see the problem. But they’d need some good play testing if they’re to work well given the wide amount of things you can incorporate their powers into 2D. They’d probably be the two most broken characters if you give them too wide a range compared to Tails and Knuckles—Shadow could warp through parts or use Chaos Blast similar to Hyper Sonic’s dash ability in S3&k (come to think about it, he’d be a Hyper Sonic by default without the emeralds at his most basic, which would be broken as is) and Silver being able to catch and throw enemies and projectiles along with being able to levitate might make him even more easier to play that folks might not even bother with the other characters unless they’re wanting a challenge.

Could work as unlockables if you earn it rather than playing then from the start, but then again, that’s not how character selection works in Classic series.

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1 hour ago, Jambone said:

Yeah, no thanks.  The Classic cast is big enough to support itself without drawing from Modern characters I don't give a shit about.  Most Modern Sonic characters don't really have a "role" anymore so much as they just exist to be drawn upon when needed to fill a quota, so it's not like there's some sort of dire need to bring them to the Classic game(s) because they're missing out on some amazing features or story.

Tails and Amy pretty much fill the same roles as they do in the Modern games, except Tails is actually useful and Amy...hasn't done anything yet.

Metal and Knuckles play Shadow's two main parts already and don't have his baggage.  Metal is the doppleganger (except he has an actual motive to fight Sonic instead of just being another friend) and Classic Knuckles is the friendly rival that isn't always around but he's really strong and fights for his own reasons (protecting the Floating Island at all costs instead of...government...or something?  Neither are great but Knuckles' is at least personal while Shadow works for the people who killed his human sister-girlfriend for some reason).

Fang has plenty of potential to be a Wario-type character who isn't necessarily evil but selfish and it puts him at odds with Sonic.  He'd probably take jobs from Egg as well, and bigger rogue's gallery is always nice.  Rouge would be his most direct counterpart, likely.

Bean and Bark are pretty much blank slates, although if they ever actually show up I'd imagine they'll probably be anti-heroes like they were in the comics if Mania is anything to go by.  Again, rogue's gallery.  They don't really correlate to any characters in particular.

Mighty and Ray fit the "extra friends that are just there" category that Silver and Blaze fill.  Silver hasn't done anything of note since his debut, but then neither have Might and Ray, so it works out.  Blaze barely exists anymore.

The Chaotix are also classic characters, but I'm not sure we'll see them show up.

Even without the Chaotix, Classic's cast is big enough without introducing more dumb characters who will stand around and do nothing.  Shadow and Silver already add next to nothing to Sonic as is, and people who don't like Modern Sonic (read: most non-Sonic fans) will start to get leery when Modern characters start showing up for no reason other than "Remember THESE characters that most people associate with why Sonic is shitty?!"  It's a bad idea on all accounts.  If you like Shadow or Silver and want them to be in better games, stop buying mediocre games from Sonic Team and encourage them to make better ones.

If they were made to do something again first, THEN would they be acceptable?

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Of the Modern characters who are listed and/or tend to be the most recurring, Cream is definitely the one that fits in the Classic settings the most. 

Though Blaze and to an extent Rouge could potentially be adjusted to pop up there as well though, depending on what the main focus of the game is. Or if Knuckles has his own scenario in the latter's case.

 

As for the question itself, I'd say just make another game where the other characters are playable and/or have somewhat notable appearances. Or more Advance styled games. Both would be nice.

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

So, in a subset of a franchise that is more focused on gameplay than story, everyone who’s against them being in the Classic series talks about everything about them except gameplay for Shadow and Silver and how that wouldn’t work.

Alright then.  Since Classic Sonic works on a one-button control scheme, pray tell how will Shadow and Silver's illustrious Dragonball Z-esque list of super powers fit into the games in a meaningful and unique way?  Shadow can shoot a projectile or do a dash, and Silver can shoot a projectile or do a hover.

For the sake of the argument, we'll assume that there are two buttons to work with in Shadow Mania.

If you're looking to expand the Classic Universe's list of playable characters (of which there are plenty, and I think five is pushing it) then there are still plenty of characters who can do anything that Edgy and Mr. Oh Six can do.  Silver's telekinesis is the kicker, which would be either completely useless (capturing and returning enemy projectiles) or require an unnecessary amount of work to integrate ('06 style object grabbing and throwing, which requires a physics engine and/or scattering throwable objects across every single level) ultimately for it to just be annoying because it makes you stop what you're doing and fiddle with boxes instead of moving forward and exploring.

Meanwhile Shadow's Chaos Powers basically boil down to teleportation and shooting energy.  Teleportation in the form of a jump dash could be something but it's not really something that absolutely no one else could do, because Teleport Dashes are just dashes that make you invincible, e.g. something that would work on Sonic, Metal Sonic, or basically any character considered fast.  Mighty could probably even do it with the justification that his shell protects him while dashing.  Projectiles in Classic Sonic are pointless, because nobody wants to come to a full stop and then hit the projectile button, then watch their dinky projectile fly into the badnik and pop it.  Meanwhile you could have just pressed down and it would be equally dead and you wouldn't have wasted seconds of your life watching a cartoon hedgehog Dante shoot a hadouken at a robot shaped like a pig.

There are justifications for these types of abilities, but I feel like requiring segments of the level where you slow down and shoot things or manipulate boxes or whatever would ultimately A. get boring really fast and B. be better served as a one-stage gimmick and then forgotten entirely.  Nearly anything that Shadow or Silver (or even Rouge or Omega or Big or whoever else) would offer to the Classic formula would either be better done by someone else or better not done at all.  Could they work?  Absolutely.  Anything could work if you put effort and thought into it.  But what's the point?  You're serving one sect of fans by alienating another.

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

If they were made to do something again first, THEN would they be acceptable?

They could just make them do something in the Modern games and then they wouldn't need to be in the Classic games to be relevant.  But to be fair, you're not going to get me on board with this idea without ripping my toenails off, so I'd say efforts to convince me would be better spent elsewhere.

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

gameplay over narrative.

That's the main hurtle to clear. Even Mighty and Ray's arsenals are looking a little sparse in my opinion, minor plus spoiler but I was delighted to learn how Mighty's shell works, he needed a little more than the hammer drop to set him apart. Silver throwing enemies around with telekinesis has less obvious applications in a 2D Sonic game then a 3D one. They're already thought of as stepping stones to achieve momentum with and throwing them away from you is slightly counter-intuitive. Silver's abilities are best suited for their own tailored levels and then you're in a Sonic Adventure situation, and would someone like say Rouge bring anything that sets her apart from Knuckles?

It seems like the obvious direction to go for whatever follows Mania and if they bring some interesting tools to the table I'd love to see modern characters jump back to the classic realm! Shadow, Rouge, the Chaotix, and Cream all top my list. Shadow's a little dicey narratively, even if classic is a separate dimension now his classic self is likely still on ice somewhere. You kind of have to retread old ground for him. It'd probably be easier to just follow Mania up with Advance 4 which also sounds like a solid idea to me.

The way I see it this isn't introducing new characters to a cast, you're using the cast that already exists in positive ways, and finally SomethingSomethingAmyForMania2.

 

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34 minutes ago, Jambone said:

You're serving one sect of fans by alienating another.

 

I wanna address this specifically. 

No you aren't really? 

One , shadow and silver could do a bunch of shit other characters can't do that would make for unique gameplay mechanics. Like , everything silver does, and shadow's ability to stop time. Two, Uh shadow would probably more likely please a lot of the fan base by his mere existence in said game. As much as you would believe that the only people buying sonic mania is " classic sonic fans" they aren't. Most people who are buying it are casual, a lot of children, who would just go " oh cool shadow " when he shows up, and is probably being heavily asked for right now. And functional adults who happen to not like shadow wouldn't care, because they would just play the character they like. So the only net negative is to people who are giant babies. And it would generally work out for everyone involved except people being giant babies 

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55 minutes ago, Jambone said:

Alright then.  Since Classic Sonic works on a one-button control scheme, pray tell how will Shadow and Silver's illustrious Dragonball Z-esque list of super powers fit into the games in a meaningful and unique way?  Shadow can shoot a projectile or do a dash, and Silver can shoot a projectile or do a hover.

You mean the way I just explained in the parts of my post you omitted?

Here let me show you. I’ll put it in bold.

3 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Shadow could warp through parts or use Chaos Blast similar to Hyper Sonic’s dash ability in S3&k (come to think about it, he’d be a Hyper Sonic by default without the emeralds at his most basic, which would be broken as is) and Silver being able to catch and throw enemies and projectiles along with being able to levitate might make him even more easier to play that folks might not even bother with the other characters unless they’re wanting a challenge

 

 

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Silver's telekinesis is the kicker, which would be either completely useless (capturing and returning enemy projectiles)

Strange how you call capturing and returning projectiles useless when such a thing would make a lot of bosses much easier. That sounds more broken as hell than anything given no other character would be able to do that. Just a simple jump, and another press of the button that deploys a shield to capture and throw objects would be enough to incorporate in a single-button stulyle gameplay—which I’m pretty sure no one else other than Cream being a close second would be able to do.

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or require an unnecessary amount of work to integrate ('06 style object grabbing and throwing, which requires a physics engine and/or scattering throwable objects across every single level) ultimately for it to just be annoying because it makes you stop what you're doing and fiddle with boxes instead of moving forward and exploring.

So then don’t go overboard with the concept then?

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There are justifications for these types of abilities, but I feel like requiring segments of the level where you slow down and shoot things or manipulate boxes or whatever would ultimately A. get boring really fast and B. be better served as a one-stage gimmick and then forgotten entirely.  Nearly anything that Shadow or Silver (or even Rouge or Omega or Big or whoever else) would offer to the Classic formula would either be better done by someone else or better not done at all.  Could they work?  Absolutely.  Anything could work if you put effort and thought into it.  But what's the point?  You're serving one sect of fans by alienating another.

Sounds more like you’re making excuses based on your personal grudges than anything, dude. And if that’s the case, then I couldn’t care any less how your personal hate for a character means they shouldn’t be playable regardless of whether they can work or not.

You want to rip your toenails out instead? Be my fucking guest and do it.

But if certain sects of fans are alienated just because Shadow and Silver are playable, optional characters (because you seem to have forgotten that part of the Classic games), then not only do the Classic Fans seriously need to practice what they preach and make cases based on interesting and fun gameplay mechanics being important as they’re so quick to point out, but they honestly need to grow up and stop throwing such tantrums like that to begin with—it amazes me how quick they are to talk about gameplay only to make every excuse under the sun they can come up with to call it either pointless or an impossibility only when it suits their convenience.

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So many Modern characters could work. Amy is overdue at this point. Big is large but he'd fit right in with his character and artstyle. The Chaotix made their debut in a classic title. (Charmy would have to be reworked though) Blaze is from a separate dimension but could have her own introduction in the classic verse. Cream could finally be relevant again. 

Shadow and Silver, along with Eggman, the Babylon Rogues, and the Zeti, make the absolute least sense for this kind of a decision, though. And when people headline this question with these characters, it's just... mindnumbing. You could make gameplay for them, yeah, that's easy, but there's so many reasons why they shouldn't work. Why they shouldn't be there. Why they wouldn't add anything. Why anyone would be a better choice for this specific series.

No, they wouldn't be a good fit for the subseries. Doesn't mean other modern characters can't be used, though. And in the case where characters couldn't be used, honestly, it shouldn't be a bad thing. Outside the fact that they already serve their purposes in their own games and whatever's left for them in the modern series' storyline, the sheer amount of potential for new, original characters for any new, original Mania-series games should completely eclipse the importance of their inclusion. Holding back an entire series' lineup, just for the sake of shoehorned pandering, isn't exactly something that should be a priority for any series.

 

 

*cough*

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14 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

So many Modern characters could work. Amy is overdue at this point. Big is large but he'd fit right in with his character and artstyle. The Chaotix made their debut in a classic title. (Charmy would have to be reworked though) Blaze is from a separate dimension but could have her own introduction in the classic verse. Cream could finally be relevant again. 

Shadow and Silver, along with Eggman, the Babylon Rogues, and the Zeti, make the absolute least sense for this kind of a decision, though. And when people headline this question with these characters, it's just... mindnumbing. You could make gameplay for them, yeah, that's easy, but there's so many reasons why they shouldn't work. Why they shouldn't be there. Why they wouldn't add anything. Why anyone would be a better choice for this specific series.

I’m more curious to these questions about how they shouldn’t work and much of that considering that 9 times out of 10, it’s said out of personal spite or because someone just doesn’t want it to simply be a thing. And yes, I’m gonna defend the Zeti on this one too.

Explain to me how, for one, if it’s easy to make gameplay for them, that they wouldn’t add anything and how that would make a poor choice anyway. That’s just being contradicting when everyone else as you just claimed don’t seem to fall into this hypothetical problem.

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No, they wouldn't be a good fit for the subseries.

And I really want to hear why, because I don’t buy it.

 

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Characters of the Classic type usually have one, at best two mechanical differences between them. Give Shadow an 8-way teleport, streamline Silver's telekinesis all the way down to Klonoa levels so it's just catching and either throwing or vaulting off enemies. Boom, done. That wasn't so hard, was it?

The only reason this isn't considered a serious possibility by many seems to be the supposition that Shadow and Silver are bound to a certain brand of narrative that doesn't gel well with classic aesthetics and... well, no shit? Just don't do that then. Christ.

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