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Should modern character like Shadow and Silver should be incorporated into the Classic formula to stay relevant?


Dash Speed

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I haven't read the whole discussion, though I have read that someone already mentioned this.

I'd like some modern characters to crossover with the classic universe, though I think that Shadow and Silver aren't good choices.

Aside of the Chaotix and Amy who already have a classic counterpart, I think that the best characters who could be adapted to the classic universe are Cream, Rouge and Big the Cat.

With Rouge I was a bit skeptical at first, but after seeing a bunch of concepts and artworks of a Classic Rouge, I think she can work. Gameplay wise, it would be nice to have something related to her species (bat)... I don't know, like, being able to walk on ceilings without falling... (I know it wouldn't make sense from a logical point of view, but gameplay-wise it can be fun and add level design variety, and being a reference to how bats behave in real life is also fitting, since Sonic rolls because real hedgehogs curl into a ball).

As much as I like Blaze as a character and design-wise, I think her gameplay is not interesting enough to deserve being adapted to the classic universe... in general, characters with superpowers are unfitting IMO, and using fire is especially bland, because it's just the same as rolling into enemies, but with a different visual effect.

Big the Cat is a very simple character, so it's easy to adapt. Gameplay wise, the fishing rod could add an original physics based gimmick that could be game breaking, but fun at the same time (similar to Ray's glide).

Now about Cream. I'd like her to be different from Tails, she shouldn't be able to fly, instead do some (3 to 5) uncurled multi-jumps (still being able to bounce on enemies below while droppping), as I feel that, being a rabbit, it would make sense to have a gameplay where jumping is a major element. Also, her gameplay should focus a lot more on the chao, that in classic gameplay should be a passive skill (similar to Super Tails' Flickies). As I suggested a lot of times before, I think she should be able to give animals to Cheese to absorb their powers and gain passive skills. The animals would be the ones obtained by destroying badniks. Regular Cheese should do nothing, some skills he may gain are: grabbing close rings, protecting Cream by spinning around her while idling, the same but while multi-jumping, being able to destroy close enemies (not bosses), hold Cream in order to let her float longer each jump (by holding the button), or give hints about the direction to take in order to find a secret area/special stage ring. This way she would have an alternative to Sonic's elemental shields skills, that would make her unique. The only thing I'm not sure about, is if a Chao would look fine in the classic universe, since Chao are so iconic of modern games (especially from the Adventure era).

Another character that I would like to see in the classic universe is Infinite (as a villain, not playable), if a Mania 2 is made. He doesn't necessarily need to be edgy, I'd like him to be funny-dark, I mean, he tries hard to be dark but he gets continuously humiliated in funny ways... It would be fun if when you defeat him, he loses his mask and hides his face, similar to what happens with Metaknight in Kirby games.

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1 hour ago, Iko said:

 

With Rouge I was a bit skeptical at first, but after seeing a bunch of concepts and artworks of a Classic Rouge, I think she can work. Gameplay wise, it would be nice to have something related to her species (bat)... I don't know, like, being able to walk on ceilings without falling... (I know it wouldn't make sense from a logical point of view, but gameplay-wise it can be fun and add level design variety, and being a reference to how bats behave in real life is also fitting, since Sonic rolls because real hedgehogs curl into a ball).

 

Another character that I would like to see in the classic universe is Infinite (as a villain, not playable), if a Mania 2 is made. He doesn't necessarily need to be edgy, I'd like him to be funny-dark, I mean, he tries hard to be dark but he gets continuously humiliated in funny ways... It would be fun if when you defeat him, he loses his mask and hides his face, similar to what happens with Metaknight in Kirby games.

Those do sound like fun ways of adapting those two.

1 hour ago, Iko said:

 

Now about Cream. I'd like her to be different from Tails, she shouldn't be able to fly, instead do some (3 to 5) uncurled multi-jumps (still being able to bounce on enemies below while droppping), as I feel that, being a rabbit, it would make sense to have a gameplay where jumping is a major element.

Also, her gameplay should focus a lot more on the chao, that in classic gameplay should be a passive skill (similar to Super Tails' Flickies). As I suggested a lot of times before, I think she should be able to give animals to Cheese to absorb their powers and gain passive skills. The animals would be the ones obtained by destroying badniks. Regular Cheese should do nothing, some skills he may gain are: grabbing close rings, protecting Cream by spinning around her while idling, the same but while multi-jumping, being able to destroy close enemies (not bosses), hold Cream in order to let her float longer each jump (by holding the button), or give hints about the direction to take in order to find a secret area/special stage ring. This way she would have an alternative to Sonic's elemental shields skills, that would make her unique. The only thing I'm not sure about, is if a Chao would look fine in the classic universe, since Chao are so iconic of modern games (especially from the Adventure era).

Now THIS is one of the more clever and intuitive, yet mediating ways of reworking/handling Cream. Hell, I think even her Dumbo ears would still somewhat fit in that she could either flap them or do a neat middleground visual of Knuckles's explanation for gliding when jumping.

Plus, that's a good way of making Cheese matter more frequently in gameplay, chararcterization wise anyway.

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I disagree about Blaze, I think Amy and maybe Honey (?) should get top priority in a future Classic game but if Rush proved anything, it's that Blaze's gameplay can work very well in 2D, her special move can be the fire jet hover. I still think that Classic and Modern should have different secondary casts though.

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I think the whole Classic & Modern split is beyond idiotic and a waste of time to begin with, so based on that, NO.

 

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14 hours ago, I Love Sticks said:

I disagree about Blaze, I think Amy and maybe Honey (?) should get top priority in a future Classic game but if Rush proved anything, it's that Blaze's gameplay can work very well in 2D, her special move can be the fire jet hover. I still think that Classic and Modern should have different secondary casts though.

I think the closest thing to seeing Blaze in a classic style game is Sonic Advance Revamped, which on top has her sprites being designed after the few 2-D ones she had in Rush (kind of like how the sprites for Amy in the E-122 hacks are built after the CD ones).

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17 hours ago, Iko said:

I haven't read the whole discussion, though I have read that someone already mentioned this.

I'd like some modern characters to crossover with the classic universe, though I think that Shadow and Silver aren't good choices.

Aside of the Chaotix and Amy who already have a classic counterpart, I think that the best characters who could be adapted to the classic universe are Cream, Rouge and Big the Cat.

With Rouge I was a bit skeptical at first, but after seeing a bunch of concepts and artworks of a Classic Rouge, I think she can work. Gameplay wise, it would be nice to have something related to her species (bat)... I don't know, like, being able to walk on ceilings without falling... (I know it wouldn't make sense from a logical point of view, but gameplay-wise it can be fun and add level design variety, and being a reference to how bats behave in real life is also fitting, since Sonic rolls because real hedgehogs curl into a ball).

As much as I like Blaze as a character and design-wise, I think her gameplay is not interesting enough to deserve being adapted to the classic universe... in general, characters with superpowers are unfitting IMO, and using fire is especially bland, because it's just the same as rolling into enemies, but with a different visual effect.

Big the Cat is a very simple character, so it's easy to adapt. Gameplay wise, the fishing rod could add an original physics based gimmick that could be game breaking, but fun at the same time (similar to Ray's glide).

Now about Cream. I'd like her to be different from Tails, she shouldn't be able to fly, instead do some (3 to 5) uncurled multi-jumps (still being able to bounce on enemies below while droppping), as I feel that, being a rabbit, it would make sense to have a gameplay where jumping is a major element. Also, her gameplay should focus a lot more on the chao, that in classic gameplay should be a passive skill (similar to Super Tails' Flickies). As I suggested a lot of times before, I think she should be able to give animals to Cheese to absorb their powers and gain passive skills. The animals would be the ones obtained by destroying badniks. Regular Cheese should do nothing, some skills he may gain are: grabbing close rings, protecting Cream by spinning around her while idling, the same but while multi-jumping, being able to destroy close enemies (not bosses), hold Cream in order to let her float longer each jump (by holding the button), or give hints about the direction to take in order to find a secret area/special stage ring. This way she would have an alternative to Sonic's elemental shields skills, that would make her unique. The only thing I'm not sure about, is if a Chao would look fine in the classic universe, since Chao are so iconic of modern games (especially from the Adventure era).

Another character that I would like to see in the classic universe is Infinite (as a villain, not playable), if a Mania 2 is made. He doesn't necessarily need to be edgy, I'd like him to be funny-dark, I mean, he tries hard to be dark but he gets continuously humiliated in funny ways... It would be fun if when you defeat him, he loses his mask and hides his face, similar to what happens with Metaknight in Kirby games.

But thats the whole point of this topic, if they aren't easily capable of having 2d gameplay, than no character is because they have super speed and have the default hedgehog attacks like sonic. It's their powers that pose a challenge. Of course Rouge, Blaze, Cream and Amy can fit, their abilites are normal compared to the Hedgehog's but whats the fun of putting them over if the Hedgehog's aren't classic material.

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I’d prefer to see the Freedom Fighters, but it the Modern branch dies off, please emigrate the Modern cast into Classic.

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5 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

But thats the whole point of this topic, if they aren't easily capable of having 2d gameplay, than no character is because they have super speed and have the default hedgehog attacks like sonic. It's their powers that pose a challenge. Of course Rouge, Blaze, Cream and Amy can fit, their abilites are normal compared to the Hedgehog's but whats the fun of putting them over if the Hedgehog's aren't classic material.

It's not that they aren't "classic material", it's that I think they are unfitting with the classic universe, or uninteresting (especially in the case of Shadow as a Sonic clone).
All of this is subjective, anyway, let me explain more in depth (in case of TL:DR skip everything from here).

Spoiler

The concepts that I suggested for those 3 characters (I excluded Blaze) introduced some gameplay gimmicks that allow different types of interaction with the level design, play with the physics of the game, and if possible, stay faithful to the animal species of the character (not possible in the case of Big the cat since his gimmick is a fishing rod).

In the case of Rouge, I suggested to allow her to walk/run on ceilings, like real life bats can stay upside down; this would allow the player to find secret routes and new ways to attack enemies (probably she needs a fly move to reach the ceilings, but I would make it mostly a vertical fly, like a very high double jump that sticks to the ceiling if collides into it). I know that most of you hate Sonic Advance 2, but, think of that Advance 2 boss where you can switch the gravity at will, this skill of Rouge would share a similar feel. I think Espio can walk on ceilings too in some specific situations (probably, I'm not sure) but Rouge would be able to do it at any moment, as long as the ceiling is low enough (though she can't walk on walls, That's Knuckles' job).

For Big the Cat I suggested a grappling hook similar to Umihara Kawase or Worms, that allows you to swing through the level (as long as you grab a wall/ceiling) and destroy everything like a wrecking ball; this is very physics based and IMO fitting with classic gameplay because of this (but can be quite op), the only downside is that the skill is based on an item he uses and not on his animal species or character design, but he's not alone in this (Amy, Fang, Bean).

The concept I suggested for Cream is a bit less unique gameplay-wise (multiple jumps), but it still changes the way you approach the enemies and even bosses: you can jump higher than any other character and drop very fast, you damage stuff while dropping, and especially, you bounce after hitting stuff; she would allow for a more traditional approach to platforming, where you jump on stuff and do chain-jumps from enemy to enemy, similar to a Mario game (I purposely made it all about jumping because that's what rabbits do). Additionally, the chao gimmick gives an additional layer of interaction and incentivates a different way of playing the game (the badniks become power-ups, so you want to destroy them to get the passive skills for Cheese, especially if they are combinable and especially if they last for a limited time each and you need to get them again).

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For Shadow instead, I can't think of anything like that. He plays like Sonic, and that's redundant. If you want to differentiate him from Sonic, you need to introduce Chaos based skills, that are either bullets, or teleports. That's not really fun, it doesn't change the way you approach the game, it won't allow you to play with the physics and be creative with the level design, not enough at least... if we consider Petit Hedgehog and Sonic Advance revamped, Shadow's teleport/HA is just an air dash/HA, indeed, and gameplay-wise, there's nothing special about that, you can do the same stuff with an elemental shield and Sonic, or with just Sonic in some other games. Shooting Chaos Spears would just be unfitting and bad IMO.

Silver is in a similar situation: He can grab and shoot objects... I admit he's way more interesting than Shadow, as he can grab badniks and shoot them as bullets, but I think he would have the same flaw as Advance Cream (overpowered, makes badniks useless, taking away from the level design), only with the need of capturing a badnik or a capsule/item in order to shoot and auto-aim enemies. Aside of that, all what Silver can do is float/glide, something that too many characters already do.

Blaze, well, according to Sonic Rush, she plays exactly like Sonic, without the HA and with a glide. HA wouldn't be in a classic game anyway, and the glide, as I said for Silver, is nothing special. Aside of that, the only differences from Sonic are in the animation and visual effects department. Now, trying to be creative, there's something that can be done for Blaze, she's not completely out of question. She could have a passive invincibility to fire, similar to how Mighty is invincible to spikes (at least for 1 hit); also, we can include the Burst Wisp into her moveset: by holding the jump button, she glides, and charges the explosion; when you release it, she explodes and jumps as high as much you charged the explosion (can be performed only once for each jump); the problem is that this would be OP too, and its only usage would be to clear a screen from badniks, or double jump. I prefer jumping skills to be exclusive of Cream (because rabbit), and anyway this burst wisp gimmick IMO would work better with Fang, using the recoil of the gun as a way to do a mid-air jump and attack enemies below simultaneously (without the explosion range that would be OP). I wouldn't want the boost in a classic game honestly, but Blaze can be an exception since she's iconic to Sonic Rush and it would make sense to make it an exclusive of her. She can work kinda, but (gameplay-wise) I see her as a weak character like (IMO) Mighty in Mania, who's just a Sonic with a permanent glorified bubble shield; I think she would benefit of staying in the modern universe and take advantage of the boost and multiple action buttons.

I didn't mention it, but I think that the (classic) Chaotix are also affected by this: their skills in Knuckles Chaotix are generic and uninteresting, especially Charmy who I like to compare with the debug mode cursor (maybe Espio is the only exception, but wall climbing is already a move of Knuckles and being able to stick on ceilings is useless if you don't have a move that lets you reach them and if the levels are not designed with that in mind).

Not to mention that conceptually, characters with superpowers are quite unfitting with the classic universe; Infinite in a Sonic Mania 2 would be the only exception because his superpowes come from the phantom ruby, and the phantom ruby is a major plot element of Mania, but outside of that context, he wouldn't make sense too.

 

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Admittedly I'm having trouble thinking of what can be done with Shadow to justify a new addition to the classic roster. He has his chaos powers, but I... actually feel that it's those same powers that make him and Silver feel like ill-fitting oddballs when it comes to Sonic characters' superpowers. I don't think there's a fangame or hack I've played that makes Shadow fun for me. And I'm not crazy about having the homing attack/light dash in the classics

I'd rather just see classic Amy first.

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