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Does No One Here Want A SatAM/Archie Sonic Game?

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8 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

The whole “LOOK LOOK, SALLY WAS WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING! SHE’S NOT A MARY SUE!” Antic is a bit overblown given that was one of the very things trying to be averted as opposed to not acknowledging the problem in making her one to begin with compared to the mess done in the games that still have yet to be addressed since arguably Colors or Generations.

The issue was that it was a problem that didn't feel like the writers were getting a grasp of specifically what was wrong (ie. Sally not really having a very defined set of foibles) so just simplified the problem and arguably made her an even more non descript character for the sake of pandering to fan complaints. It's the same thing as simplifying what was wrong with the earlier games (ie. forcing players to play as dozens of new characters rather than having new characters at all) and forcing a new half baked direction as a sign you're "listening" to the fans, which many have complained has made some of the titles following a bit blander. It's more a case of blind pandering than earnestly trying to smooth out the issues with the franchise to make it more enjoyable.

It demonstrates how trying to answer and appease fans doesn't always solve things, especially if you don't grasp exactly what was wrong in the first place. After all, fans don't always give sound critique anyway.

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The issue is that in the reboot, the writers seemes to have this intent that Sally was always morally right in an argument. She was always the one lecturing others and the one time she was called out, by Nicole during Spark of Life, the writers more or less made it seem like Nicole was in the wrong.

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26 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

The issue is that in the reboot, the writers seemes to have this intent that Sally was always morally right in an argument. She was always the one lecturing others and the one time she was called out, by Nicole during Spark of Life, the writers more or less made it seem like Nicole was in the wrong.

I think the problem was they wanted to pander to this appeasement of Sally looking more flawed but still seemed to prefer her being the designated straight man of the group, so they stuck loads of these half assed moments she was in the wrong but most of the times she could have ideally had her default character given a more flawed light they actually tended to overlook. For example her overprotectiveness and occasionally downright patronising treatment of Cream or her hypocrisy towards NICOLE about it being easier to preach than practise (you know after years of lecturing Sonic) wasn't really played with compared to compressed vice moments like her being out-of-character reckless or genre blind with heavy lampshading 'LOOK SHE WAS WRONG, SHE MADE A MISTAKE!' which made it obvious it was shallow pandering compared to actual character development that could have flowed shrewdly into the story. Thus the problem still kinda existed, just the stories' haphazardous attempts to make it look 'fixed' were making her even more inconsistent a character, just a shallow messy embodiment of what fans want from a character.

I just get the feeling that if enough fans hadn't moaned about Sally, the writers would have been perfectly fine writing Sally how she was under Hurst/Penders' pen and didn't really see the issues in her character.

Not listening to fans' concerns isn't a great idea, but neither is pretending you understand them and dumbing down parts of the franchise to pander to them.

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11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think the problem was they wanted to pander to this appeasement of Sally looking more flawed but still seemed to prefer her being the designated straight man of the group, so they stuck loads of these half assed moments she was in the wrong but most of the times she could have ideally had her default character given a more flawed light they actually tended to overlook. For example her overprotectiveness and occasionally downright patronising treatment of Cream or her hypocrisy towards NICOLE about it being easier to preach than practise (you know after years of lecturing Sonic) wasn't really played with compared to compressed vice moments like her being out-of-character reckless or genre blind with heavy lampshading 'LOOK SHE WAS WRONG, SHE MADE A MISTAKE!' which made it obvious it was shallow pandering compared to actual character development that could have flowed shrewdly into the story. Thus the problem still kinda existed, just the stories' haphazardous attempts to make it look 'fixed' were making her even more inconsistent a character, just a shallow messy embodiment of what fans want from a character.

I just get the feeling that if enough fans hadn't moaned about Sally, the writers would have been perfectly fine writing Sally how she was under Hurst/Penders' pen and didn't really see the issues in her character.

It's those things that make me kind of not want to see Sally in the new comics because I don't trust that the writers will actually understand why Sally has a lot of detractors. I'm alright with most of the FFs appearing though (granted, I prefer if Nicole was given her intended backstory for SatAM rather than being an A.I. that gained sentience).

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13 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

It's stuff like that that makes me kind of not want to see Sally in the new comics because I don't trust that the writers will actually understand why Sally has a lot of detractors. I'm alright with most of the FFs appearing though (granted, I prefer if Nicole was given her intended backstory for SatAM rather than being an A.I. that gained sentience).

Yikes, no offence but the Satam backstory for NICOLE sounded awful. Just trying WAY too hard to be dark and make it's Robotnik look nightmarish. It was obviously done directly for that intent as well over an actual flowing story, since Hurst didn't have an actual idea how NICOLE would end up in Sally's hands, just 'scary backstory' - '?' - 'profit'.

NICOLE being an AI with sentience is kinda cliche, but it does at least work within the realms of the franchise.

My issue with the other Freedom Fighters is that hindsight, they weren't actually that memorable. They were always just the sensible 'good kid' characters often in the background with Sonic and Sally having all the chemistry and foilage and most attempts to make them more fallible were more circumstantial things like backstory than trying to expand their character agency and dynamic within the group.

It kinda reminds of me of Kung Fu Panda where most of the spotlight is Po and Tigress with the other Furious Five members just gawping in the background, or pre-80s Alvin and the Chipmunks which was mostly Alvin pissing off Dave and Simon and Theodore not having their own personalities yet. The dynamic feels made only for two characters with everyone else kinda there for the ride because the writers promised they'd be there.

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19 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yikes, no offence but the Satam backstory for NICOLE sounded awful. Just trying WAY too hard to be dark and make it's Robotnik look nightmarish. It was obviously done directly for that intent as well over an actual flowing story, since Hurst didn't have an actual idea how NICOLE would end up in Sally's hands, just 'scary backstory' - '?' - 'profit'.

NICOLE being an AI with sentience is kinda cliche, but it does at least work within the realms of the franchise.

Yeah, I guess that's fair to a degree.

Anyways, since we probably won't be getting new characters next year, maybe if Sally and the others are introduced, the writers do improve on writing them. 

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27 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

It kinda reminds of me of Kung Fu Panda where most of the spotlight is Po and Tigress with the other Furious Five members just gawping in the background, or pre-80s Alvin and the Chipmunks which was mostly Alvin pissing off Dave and Simon and Theodore not having their own personalities yet. The dynamic feels made only for two characters with everyone else kinda there for the ride because the writers promised they'd be there.

Pretty good comparisons.

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6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yikes, no offence but the Satam backstory for NICOLE sounded awful. Just trying WAY too hard to be dark and make it's Robotnik look nightmarish. It was obviously done directly for that intent as well over an actual flowing story, since Hurst didn't have an actual idea how NICOLE would end up in Sally's hands, just 'scary backstory' - '?' - 'profit'.

NICOLE being an AI with sentience is kinda cliche, but it does at least work within the realms of the franchise.

I find the original backstory less trying to hard to be dark (seriously, there’s more terrifying shit in a Disney movie by comparison) than it not really serving a purpose beyond Eggman being evil.

NICOLE backstory in the reboot is one I like a lot more, for mixing tragedy and hope. Yeah, she’s not the same daughter her creator used to have and said creator was definitely dismissive of her for understandable reasons, but her creation came out of a desperate desire to save someone’s life that, despite failing, accidentally became something of its own. Even more, NICOLE carries out her deceased predecessor in spirit, not unlike what Shadow does for Maria. That’s far from being a cliche, that’s practically archetypal AI narrative, something make a damn good story in a lot of other media if built even further, not unlike Big Hero 6.

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Besides maybe Pinocchio, I guess it's that most Disney creepy imagery has some amount of whimsy to balance it out (eg. characters being turned into inanimate objects but then comically bemoaning it). The script for the SatAm NICOLE storyline was just...distressing.

I think Hurst was kinda trying too hard to emphasise his Robotnik was super evil and twisted, and he reflected that more in backstory and grandeur than substance. Half the show besides that was deceptively comic relief, even Robotnik himself and the people he tortured for a decade to some degree. It couldn't add up to the emotional weight it wanted. It reminds me of the pitiful and superfluous dub changes to Forces' story, Sonic's been tortured by Eggman for months and Tails has had a nervous breakdown....oh wait, there they are making one liners. It was unbelievable and even more annoyingly it wasn't necessary for tension at all.

I appreciate the Archie backstory was tragic without being too macabre, also it did give some excuse to why NICOLE was a sophisticated AI having less problems comprehending human attributes and emotions, compared to the original canon where she spent a long time as just a chunk of barely sentient metal then suddenly a perfectly functioning sapient being with little issues. (Sonic shaking NICOLE seems WAY more callous under that light). :P

I guess one problem is also that, unless they had a REALLY complex branching storyline, setting all that up would likely require a lot of streamlining and dumbing down of key plot factors, since said backstory required a four part limelight arc itself.

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I've been trying to stay out of this topic as not having been a fan of SatAM doesn't make me the most qualified (yes I'm also an Amy fan but despite that I like seeing Amy and Sally as friends and would love to see Sally introduced as a confidant to Amy and Knuckles in the comics who can take over the resistance), but all of this recent talk about character depth and shallowness of various characters as well as the games in typically being adventure focused, I find myself wondering are the FFs a good choice at all? Now that isn't to say that they couldn't be used, but with SEGA/Sonic Team's good narrative allergies in full force right now and the amount of time and effort that would be put into using the FFs I don't see anything but a disaster happening. It's not even that I can't imagine a scenario that works to some small extent. I mean to me, if you want to be truthful to the FFs and SatAM, but also truthful to what the games typically are, the best bet is probably to borrow from the games more heavily than SatAM which may seem weird so let me just throw some examples to try and explain.

First off setting. SatAM is presented as a very dark setting where Eggman has already conquered everything and outside of Sonic and the FFs there isn't any hope. Now that doesn't really work with the games as Eggman outside of Forces is always in the midst of attempting some plan to begin his takeover. However there is precedent both in the games and Archie Comics to make the setting work. Starting with the comics, if I'm remembering correctly both the Genesis Story and post reboot have Sally having started the FFs to battle Eggman due to being inspired by stories of Sonic and his feats of derring-do against Egggman. This allows the FFs to be established without sacrificing any character and still holds over an aspect of them from SatAM's most successful/only adaption/continuation from the comics. But we still need Eggman to do some conquering and be a blight upon the land with compromising who he is in the games. Fortunately Sonic CD exists and gives us precedent for Eggman conquering and making a mess in the process. The basic story to CD regardless of region is that Sonic arrives at Little Planet oblivious that Eggman has gotten there first and conquered the whole planet before he ever got there. Now anyone whose played the game and seen a bad futures knows that even typically goofy game Eggman can still create the visual setting of SatAM and even Swatbots aren't outside the range of possibility if one looks at the robots that Eggman has used in some other entries in the series. So looking at it like this the setting is fully possible with Eggman simply using the Acorn Kingdom as a factory zone as it is like very rich in resources which fits in with Eggman's constant building.

Now with the setting out of the way we have to address Sonic himself and what brings him to the Acorn Kingdom. First and foremost though, it must be addressed that in my eyes game Sonic and Archie/SatAM Sonic are not reconcilable and that will color my example. With that out of the way though, Sonic being a globetrotting adventurer is again established in the Genesis comic if my memory is serving so even by the comics there is little reason for him not to just show up one day. Now of course in the games there is no problem at all either so getting Sonic there is pretty much as simple as saying this is the setting and it works.

So, with that done we need a bit of game flavor still to make the game marketable to as large of an audience as possible so I'll choose the Unleashed cast (Sonic, Tails, and Amy) for my example as I find that they are the most easy to use characters and I'll also throw in a Mighty cameo to keep things simple. Now, following is my pseudo-pitch for a SatAM?Archie inspired game that I would love to play for the narrative that doesn't compromise the games or the SatAM/Archie cast;

Spoiler

The story begins with Sonic and Mighty bumping into each other as there respective adventures happen to cross and the two swap tales of what they've been up to since their last meeting. Hearing about the beauty of the Acorn Kingdom, Sonic decides it's a place that he has to see and speeds off to make his way there. Wanting to take it in from the sky first Sonic meets up with Tails and the two take the Tornado to Acorn Kingdom where instead of finding a lush paradisiacal kingdom of beauty and wonder they discover a sprawling Eggman wasteland riddled with factories, mines, casinos, and any number of bases on land and sky. Sonic's presence being anticipated by Eggman results in the Tornado being shot down and once on the ground Sonic and Tails' activity draws the attention of the FFs. Meanwhile, Amy following the instructions of her fortune telling also makes her way to the Acorn Kingdom and meets up with Sonic, Tails, and the FFs. The three of them meet Sally Acorn and learn that she rallied against Eggman's takeover and put together the FFs to fight back though Eggman's rate of expansion took her by surprise. With Sonic there though, the inspirational image she's used to remind everyone that Eggman can be beaten she becomes positive that they actually can take back there once beautiful kingdom and the story begins in earnest.

Character-wise, the roles for the game cast are as follow for the narrative.
Sonic: The hero who will save the day and the primary motivation for the FFs and even the regular citizens to believe that they can win against Eggman.
Amy:  Plays the role of motivator reminding everyone how far they've made under Sally's leadership and the capabilities that they possess if they remember to believe in  themselves and Sally.
Tails: Plays the role of showing what Amy and Sally are saying that Sonic doesn't have to be the only hero and inspires by being Sonic's second.

For the game layout and gameplay the structure will be built around Sonic and Tails progressing through a level and then returning to a hub world where bonus levels can be accessed based off of meeting certain in level requirements. Examples include;
Collecting enough Rings will allow Sally to charge Nicole allowing for a minigame to hack open in level doors which unlock secrets, additional routes, etc.
Destroying enough enemies unlocks scrap allowing for Rotor to repair the Tornado to allow for Tornado bonus levels that end when the Tornado is shot down leaving Rotor wanting to improve his skills.
Freeing enough animals/citizens unlocks a minigame where Bunny can go wild destroying Eggman machinery.
Collecting enough Video Monitors, primarily shields, will unlock a minigame where Antoine attempts to destroy as many robot reserves as possible.
Completing these minigames/bonus levels advances each characters narrative.

In addition to minigames/bonus levels, in the hub world players will be able to replay previous levels, interact with the other characters, view collectibles and partake in main and side story advancing instances. For the games best possible ending completing all instances of main and bonus levels will be necessary but are not required to complete to reach the final boss.

And that wraps up my pitch for how I would do a SatAM/Archie inspired game that mixes the games and SatAM/Archie setting in a way that I would want to play a SatAM/Archie inspired game. I tried to keep it simple, diverse, straight forward, and clean, all while respecting all of the characters to the best of my understanding them while keeping alternative gameplay semi-optional and limited. It's not perfect, but mixing game and SatAM/Archie Elements I was able to in just a couple of paragraphs pitch a game that a Japanese story first fan like myself would enjoy. As I said it's not impossible if even a forum user like me can slap something feasible together in a short amount of time, but as I also said, with SEGA/Sonic Teams allergies to good narrative in full force right now I don't see anything good coming of it.

To answer the thread question again though, do I not want one? Well, if something like my pitch came out which respected both the games and SatAM/Archie then I would be all for it. But if the version of the game characters I prefer were to be discarded for it then it probably wouldn't be for me and I'd have little interest. So while I guess it's kind of a it depends situation, even as a fan the games first, and the Japanese narratives as well, I'm still open to one if you can sell me on, and since I can sell myself it's not impossible.

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The catch is, which genre would that theoretical game be? Making all these characters playable would make platforming difficult, or maybe just a solo sonic game with actual backstory?

Careful to not fall into genre roulette problem of the Adventure games.

 

Giving my cents for the last topic, as for Nicole (her name is not supposed to be full of uppercase's! her name was never an acronym like ADAM!), I consider her the only character that can be fit in any canon of the franchise due to her unique nature contrasting with all the cast (although cliche'ed nowadays, in a world full of Cortanas and EDI's, but really, I don't care. Give me my synthetic characters.).

Also, I too, prefer her post-reboot origin. The whole "sent back from future for whatever reason" never made any sense. However, it annoyed me, though, that the character was badly used in that post-reboot canon. She was demoted from a fully fleshed character back to being Sally's bland, useful tool.

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I thought role wise she sort of worked in post-reboot canon due to being a streamlined into her original role but 'now a proper character', the only problem is that said character wasn't that interesting if you took away that gimmick. That said I don't think pre-reboot Nicole was that super interesting personality wise either, she was what you got if you had an AI character and took out all the 'not equipped to emotions' shtick, just blandness without it being an actual foible. Her more interesting element was always her gimmick and the unique powers she had. She could get emotional scars from it like when the population took notice of how dangerous she could be, but the same can be said for so many Freedom Fighter characters or even the redshirts, that doesn't that make her default personality interesting, just what it goes through.

That is my major concern with the Freedom Fighters, that if you dumbed down their backstories and tragic points in their lives and things HAPPENING TO them, there actually isn't much of an interesting characterisation left. I mean Rotor and Bunnie aren't exactly known for having lots of foibles, and many complain Sally is pretty dull when she's not bantering with Sonic. Antoine was pretty much just pompous comic relief (and after a while not even that) and Dulcy was that just blander and with less emphasis on the pitiful element.

What works with many of the SEGA cast is that, while they aren't exactly a bastion of depth either, there is some sort of consistent personality that translates into almost any interpretation and scenario they're given, Sonic is altruistic but cocksure, Knuckles is a hothead, Shadow is an aloof wild card, Blaze is serious but easy to fluster, etc. Hell Mania Adventures managed to demonstrate a lot of these without even dialogue or much of a story but 'Eggman pulls wacky scheme' while some of the earlier 2D games do so just through animation gestures. Sonic was always designed to be expressive and have lots of character, to the point one the Sonic 2 designers felt his personality basically made him 'alive'. Could the same be said for the Freedom Fighters?

(For a moment of shameless self promoting, this was a problem I had when making the 'Sally/Bunnie in Sonic 1/2' hacks, Sally I could sorta make a bit neurotic and meticulous just through expressions and abilities, but Bunnie I don't think I got too much distinct besides standard cartoony reactions. I got a couple dainty animations but I think Amy outdoes her in that aspect. I don't know how much of that is down to the characters' limitations or my own however).

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On 9/1/2018 at 7:05 PM, andrewtuell1991 said:

And Sally "I should've known you'd be selfish" Acorn isn't annoying?  Even at her best, she's a boring nag with no interesting, unique abilities.  Her backstory and family history adds so little to the lore of whatever continuity she's it yet gets so much focus in a desperate attempt to make it look like she's contributing anything.  She's like Chris from Sonic X, hogging so much spotlight yet adding so little.

I wouldn't call Satam Sonic an "arrogant blow-hard", that's more Fleetway Sonic's thing.  Satam Sonic is a manchild with room temperature IQ and Sally acts as a nagging caregiver.

Nicole is pointless.  Exploration is key element in any Sonic story and having some exposition-spewing computer know everything about a new place ruins that fun.

I don't like putting effort into thinking up stuff for characters I don't like and don't want anywhere near the games.  Even if Sega decided to play Weekend at Bernie's with the FFs, what would they do?  Be thrust into some "team" that is a carbon copy of all the teams hoping one or more don't get cut so Sega can fit them into that stupid Speed, Fly, Power trio they've been forcing since Heroes?

The whole point of the FFs is they're childhood friends of Sonic's working together to topple some tyrant.  If they're introduced as new characters without that backstory, and they most likely would be, they're just more Speed, Fly, Power characters for mobile game rosters.  Do you really thing Modern Sega would do anything more with them?

The legacy of 20 year old cartoon that lasted 2 seasons and a comic with bumpy history of quality control and a copyright problems out the wazoo.  Some legacy.

Thinking about it, why do people always single out the Satam/Archie Freedom Fighters as these characters who absolutely need to be added to the games?  What about the character from outside non-game material?  Why not the Aosth characters (Scratch, Grounder, Coconuts, maybe Katella) who are about as old as the Satam characters and would fit with the games' current tone?  Why about the Fleetway Freedom Fighters (Johnny, Porker, Tekno, and Shortfuse) who knew their place and never overshadowed the game characters?  I think one or two people unironically like the Sonic Underground characters, so why not them?  Keep in mind I don't want these character in the games either, but why do people keep putting the Satam/Archie Freedom Fighters on this pedestal as the gold standard of non-game characters?

The Fleetway cast never overshadowed the game characters? Ray was never used! And a great many of them got their own stories, over, ya know, other SEGA characters? They’re no better. But there is now a fan-game that mixes a ton of canons (and Earthworm Jim, amongst others.)

 

And by the way, Cosmo seems up there as a pedestal too. Especially in light of Groot being a big name movie star.

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29 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

That is my major concern with the Freedom Fighters, that if you dumbed down their backstories and tragic points in their lives and things HAPPENING TO them, there actually isn't much of an interesting characterisation left.

I don't quite get where you getting at. Can you explain more?

I mean, what defines a person is exactly its life experiences. Of course if you take the past traumas away they won't be the same. A silly example: say, you traveled back in time and changed my past, removing some of my own issues, I'd certainly be a different guy.

Since we've got to the SEGA cast of the equation, I don't see how having generic traits make them superior to the rest. It may give them some sort of omnipresence for having the same traits repeated over different canons, but what else?

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15 minutes ago, Korke said:

I don't quite get where you getting at. Can you explain more?

I mean, what defines a person is exactly its life experiences. Of course if you take the past traumas away they won't be the same. A silly example: say, you traveled back in time and changed my past, removing some of my own issues, I'd certainly be a different guy.

Since we've got to the SEGA cast of the equation, I don't see how having generic traits make them superior to the rest. It may give them some sort of omnipresence for having the same traits repeated over different canons, but what else?

I guess it's a case of nature vs nurture in that regard.

My problem with some of the Freedom Fighters isn't just how much that experience defines that character, but sometimes how much that is limelighted INSTEAD OF their character. I mean it's not quite as bad as say Shortfuse's 'reminds everyone he's stuck inside a badnik body every single story' shtick but sometimes I think they're too much of an everyman type without that, to the point that post-reboot got away with toying with some of their personalities and designs significantly and that being the least of fan's concerns.

Sure they don't NEED to have that omnipresence, but if not, then why not just have an expy of them. If Sally or Rotor or Dulcy's defining personality and design don't offer some important amount of appeal into the measure, then why not just use a character with a similar premise like Shade was supposed to be for Julie Su?

After all, let's say the games DID adapt a Satam/Archie concept, needless to say something would HAVE to be altered or streamlined or taken out altogether, and that would play into this stance, since that could make said SatAm characters completely different in structure. The reboot comics and even some parts of the pre-reboot comics were the last straw for many older SatAm fans, and I think it's a certainty that even they were able to be more loyal than a theoretical video game adaptation would be allowed to be.

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3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Sure they don't NEED to have that omnipresence, but if not, then why not just have an expy of them. If Sally or Rotor or Dulcy's defining personality and design don't offer some important amount of appeal into the measure, then why not just use a character with a similar premise like Shade was supposed to be for Julie Su?

 

Your better off steering clear of the character specifics entirely than building up an espy of another character. If you go into a scenario where you are defining a new character to fill a niece specifically held by an older one, than you are setting yourself up for ridicule and backlash. Not only will the immediate comparison be drawn between the espy and the original, but you've already handcuffed yourself as to what your new creation is going to be.

 

If you are bringing in characters to fill in the gaps of previous characters, then you can easily fall into a Chris Thorndyke problem, where the only thing anyone see's of the new kid is how he is appropriating the moments and traits of the characters around him. We don't need that.

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6 hours ago, Korke said:

The catch is, which genre would that theoretical game be? Making all these characters playable would make platforming difficult, or maybe just a solo sonic game with actual backstory?

Careful to not fall into genre roulette problem of the Adventure games.

Honestly, the genre roulette of the Adventures seems to be a case of either 1)padding out the game with extra content, and 2) experimentation. An action-adventure platformer could have a diverse set of characters and still retain focus so long as the designers maintain a focus over the core of the game.

Speed and mobility are key to a Sonic game, and every character should have at nice degree of both with some nuances to differentiate them while controlling similar to one another.

A good comparison I can make with this is the FPS Shooter—the core of these games are to move around, kill enemy players, and in some modes take objectives. So if you find yourself fishing in that genre, you know something isn’t right.

Likewise in FPS Shooters, there’s small nuances to it. Sure everyone plays the same, but their weapons are different—a player with an assault rifle is going to be at a lot closer to another player to kill them than one who has a sniper shooting people at a much safer distance, but they come with advantages and disadvantages with the assault rifle allowing for rapid fire up close while the sniper tends to shoot one bullet and requires one to zoom in and find enemies. But they both shoot at people, hence the similarity. Nevermind differences in the genre what with Halo’s multitude of vehicles, Titanfall’s Mechs and Parkour, Battlefield’s wider battlegrounds with vehicles and player categories, and COD’s simple run and gun.

For Sonic, you just need to keep the speed and mobility in mind. Characters shouldn’t be too slow, all abilities should allow them to traverse the stage (hence using the Homing Attack to make a bridge out of enemies over a pit) and the level should be made to work along with this while challenging the player to get to the end. Anything that doesn’t work well with this, or worse works against it needs to be reconsidered on the drawing board or at worst (key word here) scrapped.

How you make that work with the Freedom Fighters can go in a lot of ways, but it should at least work with the standard gameplay.

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On 9/8/2018 at 5:49 PM, Miragnarok said:

The Fleetway cast never overshadowed the game characters? Ray was never used! And a great many of them got their own stories, over, ya know, other SEGA characters? They’re no better. But there is now a fan-game that mixes a ton of canons (and Earthworm Jim, amongst others.)

 

And by the way, Cosmo seems up there as a pedestal too. Especially in light of Groot being a big name movie star.

You mean a UK comic never used a character who only in one game with very limited release outside Japan?  Stop the presses!  And no, the Fleetway FFs never overshadowed the Sega characters, they were always on equal or lesser footing.  To better highlight what I mean:

http://stc.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_stories

Ignoring all the stories from other Sega franchises, the vast majority of stories were headlined by the core four (Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Knuckles) or "Sonic's World" (Fleetway's Sonic Universe) with a small handful for Robotnik.  The only Fleetway characters to get headline privilege were Tekno and only shared with Amy (and their stories weren't well received)  and Captain Plunder with 3 story arcs.  14 total parts out of 400+, not what I would call "overshadowing".  

In the Archie comics, even after the reboot the Knothole Freedom Fighters were still the main characters in the main series whereas big name game characters like Shadow and even Knuckles (KNUCKLES!!) were still regulated mini arcs in a side series.  Sure Knuckles had his own series for a bit but that was short-lived.  And it was done by Ken Penders...  Let's compare that to the eventual fates of the Fleetway originals: Porker quit the team before Issue 100, Johnny fricking died in the last story arc, Shortfuse was deroboticized towards the end, and he and Tekno weren't even in the final arc.  Had STC continued (Online doesn't count) I could see them continuing the path phasing out their original content in favor of spotlighting the game characters, albeit integrated differently like Chaos was.

I do remember Cosmo having a large fandom, though it seems to have died down in recent years.

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I would, personally.

But more importantly, I want the feeling that later Archieverse gave (more specifically, late pre-reboot but reboot had it too.) Where Eggman was a threat, had control over the world, had a large share of power and Sonic had to fight to free those parts of the world, but the big man always had another plan ready to go and is often met with a good amount of success.

That is, hands down, the most important part of why I loved Archie. Sure, sure... I liked Sally, Nicole (she's adorable), Bunnie, Rotor, and Antoine. I liked several unique Archie characters like Mammoth Mogul and even didn't entirely dislike Scourge. I even dug Omega (I think he's incredibly boring in SEGA.)

But what I want is that feeling of "fighting for freedom" and how powerful a man with an infinite pool of resources, robotic genius and a dash of bombastic nature can give. That Eggman, competent but still humorous, is what really made Archie for me.

When Forces started being showcased, my interest was peaked, but I kinda tuned out the second that Infinite was revealed. It felt like they were starting to go that direction. Buuuut, the past kinda showed me that the second a new villain is introduced, Eggman plays second fiddle. I dunno what the story of Forces is, and honestly, I just don't care anymore.

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1 hour ago, WittyUsername said:

I would, personally.

But more importantly, I want the feeling that later Archieverse gave (more specifically, late pre-reboot but reboot had it too.) Where Eggman was a threat, had control over the world, had a large share of power and Sonic had to fight to free those parts of the world, but the big man always had another plan ready to go and is often met with a good amount of success.

That is, hands down, the most important part of why I loved Archie. Sure, sure... I liked Sally, Nicole (she's adorable), Bunnie, Rotor, and Antoine. I liked several unique Archie characters like Mammoth Mogul and even didn't entirely dislike Scourge. I even dug Omega (I think he's incredibly boring in SEGA.)

But what I want is that feeling of "fighting for freedom" and how powerful a man with an infinite pool of resources, robotic genius and a dash of bombastic nature can give. That Eggman, competent but still humorous, is what really made Archie for me.

When Forces started being showcased, my interest was peaked, but I kinda tuned out the second that Infinite was revealed. It felt like they were starting to go that direction. Buuuut, the past kinda showed me that the second a new villain is introduced, Eggman plays second fiddle. I dunno what the story of Forces is, and honestly, I just don't care anymore.

Alright, here’s something to get you up to speed on the Phantom Ruby arc. After Mania ends with the Ruby lost to the modern age, Eggman finds it just as he oversees a failed project. Eggman captures Sonic and drags him to the Death Egg for torture. But because the Death Egg is Little Planet, Sonic remains unaffected. Eggman’s reign over the world is unchallenged, with Tails now utterly traumatized and unable to do anything, when Classic Sonic shows his cuddly face to inspire a degree of hope as the vain Knuckles builds up his army to fend off Eggman’s massive forces, but they have trouble with the petty and sadistic mercenary named Infinite. He builds doppelgängers of various characters to terrorize the resistance, notably framing Shadow, the very man who humiliated him in battle. In your rescue of Sonic, the Miracle Planet is forever lost, but combat shifts to finding his fortress on the earth. Beating down the last of his armies and disposing of infinite, Eggman is apparently slain by the Sonics and you, but not without heavy casualties. Silver’s prescence  is for unknown reasons, however.

 

The Ruby ends up in the Classic land again, with Eggman vying for the object again, which is used by the Heavy Magician to heal the remaining Heavies, who had been offlined by Mighty and Ray after the King had been rebuilt. The two were captured and placed in a pod for their actions, only to be saved by Classic, who is promptly sent on another journey through the islands to save the day. In the climax, Classic Eggman is sucked into a warp much akin to the one Sonic was sucked into, and the Heavies have seemingly reformed. ..

 

Further, the Ruby appears to have landed in the possession of a rotund sultan-looking character named Dodonpa... 

 

On-topic, if SEGA are adamant about their removal, why not turn them into a separate IP from Sonic?  Could they work better that way? 

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2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

On-topic, if SEGA are adamant about their removal, why not turn them into a separate IP from Sonic? 

They rarely give their attention to their other IPs. What makes you think they’ll give the FFs separate IPs?

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I'm of mixed feelings myself. 

In my heart of hearts, I'd rather love to see it. That being said, I've become kind of jaded towards SEGA and Sonic Team and their take on storytelling, and I'm not really sure I'd WANT to see a hypothetical Satam/Archie game to be handled by them at this point. In particular I feel the idea would be all the harder given the aftermath of Sonic Forces and Sonic Boom, with one sharing a similar premise and doing it badly while the other attempted to be a radically different take on the current games and wound up being a repeat of the Sonic 06 fiasco. 

Now, if I had reason to think SEGA/Sonic Team could do it and do it well? Then I'd say go for it. Likewise, I'm not opposed to show/comic exclusive characters being transferred into the main games either- I've always enjoyed the characters who appear in spinoff media, and I felt it was a shame that none of them were really permitted to make the jump. My biggest concern though would be the nature of the changes- one of the defining concepts for all the Freedom Fighters is that they are driven and defined by their lives being ruined by Robotnik, having lost their homes and families to him and being forced to grow up at a young age in order to retake their world. SEGA's storytelling priorities at this point doesn't really permit that much backstory in general, let alone any kind of close connection to Eggman or anyone else. 

Soo yeah. I'd honestly like to see it, but I'm not really certain of how workable it is at this point or if I would really trust SEGA/Sonic Team to do a good job. 

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27 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Alright, here’s something to get you up to speed on the Phantom Ruby arc.

Thanks. Though I'm finding it a little hard to follow. I guess because I haven't played Mania either and I think "phantom ruby" is associated with Mania?

At some point, I might actually play through them, if I actually get interested in Sonic again. Right now, I got a giant steam backlog of games that I haven't even opened and those desperately want my attention.

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