Is/was Sonic getting the Goku treatment?

[Mountaindewandsprite]

The "Goku treatment" is when the writers totally make all supporting characters useless or defenseless against the main villain in order to set up for the "hero" to swoop in and save everyone's ass. Don't get me wrong, I know this happens a lot in fiction but I was curious to know if some of you believe Sonic is or was being given the "Goku treatment" where he is the only one who can defeat a villain (I'm not saying he shouldn't due to the fact that he IS the MAIN character) while the others get stomped, cry for him, and then act like his personal cheerleaders?

EDIT: I know he officially lost to Infinite, which is why I added "was".

[StaticMania]

How long did this take to be noticed?

This was happening for a while...

[Almar]

>Looks at Sonic Forces where it takes a Mary Sue stepping in for the Resistance to accomplishing something once Sonic is captured

You tell me.

[Polkadi~☆]

This has been going on for a good long while. It's just more apparent now that we've began to notice (and that it's way less subtle).

The problem for Sonic, I believe, is that they put so many characters into a single game that this is the only way to use them without one of them hogging screentime or wasting time that can be used for gameplay. Generations and Forces being a great example.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

20 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

How long did this take to be noticed?

This was happening for a while...

I've actually noticed for a while. You know how you can know about something yet not speak out on it? That's what I did.

[StaticMania]

Since Sonic Adventure, then?

[Dr. Detective]

I was about to ask, "Which" Goku treatment.

I was thinking about the one where he acts like a horrible person that does stupid things that puts the world in danger and the narrator says he's awesome for it. That thankfully isn't how Sonic is.

The one where he's the only one allowed to beat anyone, however, is true as far as the Modern games go but that's because he's the only one who we're allowed to play as. That and, for some reason, they don't see any benefit in having other characters run alongside you for the option of a team-attack or combo-move or something along those lines anymore. Bosses aren't really structured in ways that make it look like the others are helping. They consider screaming at you from a void to be assistance as we learned in Generations after all.

[RedFox99]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

The one where he's the only one allowed to beat anyone, however, is true as far as the Modern games go but that's because he's the only one who we're allowed to play as.

Well keep in mind that Knuckles in SA2 was playable, but could have easily been written out of the story. Amy wasn't playable and she was still more important to the story than Knuckles.

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Well keep in mind that Knuckles in SA2 was playable, but could have easily been written out of the story. Amy wasn't playable and she was still more important to the story than Knuckles.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Of course, it depends on how the story is written. Being playable doesn't instantly grant them more story relevance. There's no bigger example of that than Classic Sonic's useless inclusion in Forces.

I don't agree that Amy had more to contribute than Knuckles did personally but that's mostly because that was largely my introduction to Knuckles and his mission to protect the Master Emerald. Even in hindsight, it's hard to ignore the interesting character dynamic he had with Rouge as well as the small contribution to stopping the Chaos Emeralds as, even if the Biolizard kept the Ark going towards the Earth at the end, it's not like he still didn't need to stop them. However, I'm someone who considers character moments, personal journeys, and sub-plots to be integral to stories just as much as contributions to the main narrative. That's kind of why I also like Gamma and Big's stories in Adventure. Amy didn't have that much of it in Adventure 2 despite her helping Shadow.

That's an entirely different argument though.

 

[dbzfan7]

Depends on your own definitions. I'd say yes in the sense he's really the only character who can move the plot forward....no one else really can as of late. I mean we could say like the Avatar did...but considering how fast they went to Sonic survived....did he really move it forward if at all? I guess it could be argued...but no real progress happens without him.

It kinda reminds me of the Worlds United thing where Mega-Man and Sonic stomp each others universes which kinda upset me...

I think it's easier to say either Sonic is heavily overpowered, or everyone else is heavily underpowered...maybe both.

[Sega DogTagz]

43 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

It kinda reminds me of the Worlds United thing where Mega-Man and Sonic stomp each others universes which kinda upset me...

 

To be fair, that was SonicMan and MEGGaMan, so it was kind of to be expected. Looking back to when Sonic got robotisized into Mecha-Sonic, he was able to solo TKO all the freedom fighters big guns and Knuckles without breaking a sweat, so it makes sense that a powered up MegaMan could do the same.

 

Onto the question at hand, I think the writers have dialed it back from the brink and given some other characters more opportunities to contribute and save the day. I think the thing about the "Goku Treatment" that really sets it apart is how Goku has to be the last line of defense. Either everyone else on his side of the conflict is hopelessly over-matched, or already beaten, and the only one who can possibly win and save the day is Goku. While Sonic is most often in the right time/place to do the heroics, you can't say that he's the only possible option recently.

Take SA1 for example. There was likely no one else on the planet capable of taking on Perfect Chaos. That was a true Goku moment in the idea that the main villain was powered up to a scale to which only Sonic could achieve. If he didn't save the day, there would be one one else to turn to. The earth would be destroyed and we'd be using the dragon balls chaos emeralds to Shenron Princess Elise everyone back to life.

A game like Lost World doesn't fit that bill. While Sonic was in the right place/time to be the hero, his victory was more dependent on circumstance. The villain wasn't particularly overpowered, as Shadow, Knuckles or perhaps even Tails (if he would do something) would have been more than enough to best that boss. Sonic just happened to be johnny on the spot.

The same goes for Generations. While notorious for having Sonics allies stand around doing nothing, I hesitate to classify it as a Goku moment, because there were others available who could have pulled off that victory. Shadow might as well have been Vegeta sitting there, knowing he was strong enough to sub in for either of the blue hedgies and the battle would have been over all the same.

Even in Forces, Sonic didn't do anything particularly special to save the day. It took a group effort to knock off the final boss anyway.

 

The only real honest-to-god Goku moments I see in the main series are SA1, SA2 and Battle. Maybe Unleashed if you stretch the definition.

I think its easy to build a trend in your mind due to the relative span of uselessness of the side cast over that time period, but even then you have to look at games like Rush, Rivals and Heroes which took that Goku mold and smashed it over its knee. I don't think its fair to say Sonic's been cast into any mold, let alone Goku's.

[dbzfan7]

2 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

To be fair, that was SonicMan and MEGGaMan, so it was kind of to be expected. Looking back to when Sonic got robotisized into Mecha-Sonic, he was able to solo TKO all the freedom fighters big guns and Knuckles without breaking a sweat, so it makes sense that a powered up MegaMan could do the same

I don't think I like it there either. If everyone is teaming up to fight them and all fail...it makes everyone look bad....if he strategically like hunted down everyone one by one that'd be fine. But soloing everyone just makes ya ask who needs these losers when the main hero is basically better than all of them combined? It makes them look like gods among mortals. If everyone around them is mere fodder, it puts into question how competent the others are, especially the bigger guns.

[Sega DogTagz]

13 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I don't think I like it there either. If everyone is teaming up to fight them and all fail...it makes everyone look bad....if he strategically like hunted down everyone one by one that'd be fine. But soloing everyone just makes ya ask who needs these losers when the main hero is basically better than all of them combined? It makes them look like gods among mortals. If everyone around them is mere fodder, it puts into question how competent the others are, especially the bigger guns.

We arn't talking about base level Sonic and MegaMan though.

Going back to the Mecha-Sonic example, Sonic was already the best the FF had to offer. He was the fastest and strongest and the only character that could truly stand against him at the time was Knuckles. Dr. Eggman took that, turned flesh and blood to metal and steel, made him tireless and then weaponized him to heaven and back. There is no shame in losing to a force of nature like that. Mecha-Sonic was a killing machine. SonicMan is narrative-ly speaking the same. The FF were not equipped to deal with that kind of power. They arn't supposed to be.

If your fighting something that far out of your league, numbers don't provide much help. That might as well been another Super Scourge incident. The enemy was just on another level is all. Should we look down on the FF because they couldn't take Scourge out? Of course not. Why is MEGGaMan any different?

 

[dbzfan7]

7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

We arn't talking about base level Sonic and MegaMan though.

Going back to the Mecha-Sonic example, Sonic was already the best the FF had to offer. He was the fastest and strongest and the only character that could truly stand against him at the time was Knuckles. Dr. Eggman took that, turned flesh and blood to metal and steel, made him tireless and then weaponized him to heaven and back. There is no shame in losing to a force of nature like that. Mecha-Sonic was a killing machine. SonicMan is narrative-ly speaking the same. The FF were not wern't equipped to deal with that kind of power. They arn't supposed to be.

If your fighting something that far out of your league, numbers don't provide much help. That might as well been another Super Scourge incident. The enemy was just on another level is all.

 

I'm not really arguing logic. I'm saying it doesn't really help anyone but Sonic himself. It makes Sonic look good and strong, but everyone else look pretty bad. Super Scourge is an end all be all kinda thing since that sort of form has always been. But an Eggman creation being even remotely close to that good would also put Eggman himself into perspective and his own capabilities as a villain. No one but Sonic looks good in these kind of scenarios. These scenarios spell out that basically everyone's screwed if he's not around to save them.

How I phrased it you can still have pretty much the same thing, without making everyone look bad. Being beaten and caught off guard by a potentially improved Sonic isn't a shame...on your own. But having the combined forces of everyone there and not basically being headless chicken, that helps no one. It only paints the picture that Sonic doesn't really need anyone but for small grunt work at best.

If Eggman can make Sonic so powerful and highly out of everyones league, that makes him look bad as he needs Sonic just to do that. He's smart enough and resourceful enough to do that to Sonic....but not basically do that on his own....which he could then in numerous potential ways.

[Sega DogTagz]

I don't feel like its fair to hold that against the FF (or Eggy for that matter), but this isn't the place to talk about it - so I'll leave you to your opinion.

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I don't feel like its fair to hold that against the FF (or Eggy for that matter), but this isn't the place to talk about it - so I'll leave you to your opinion.

Ok that's fair enough, and yeah you're right. It probably is better to nip that conversation here despite our different stances.

Just to add to something else I'd say it's more GT Goku if anything....especially considering Sonic still has a better win-loss record. I mean Goku and Super Goku lose like...a lot...they're depended on a ton, but they're spoty record kinda speaks for itself.

[Tornado]

That long stretch last decade where all of his character flaws were scrubbed in order to bring better attention to how incorruptibly purely pure he was as a hero didn't help.

[Shadowlax]

Nah

Sonic is getting the bad super hero comic treatment. Basically write characters who can solve the problem out of the narrative. Or conveniently have them unable to solve the problem. The thing about goku is that in lore outside of recent shenanigans he was the strongest. That isn't true for sonic by any means, so what they do is " Oh hey , shadow and blaze are missing and silver is a dumb ass now whooopsie doodle " and sort of try and sweep those plot gaps under the rug. Or just have them not included, they don't have to make stipulations like that for goku. 

That said, it seems people are growing more and more tired of it. If this call for all the adventure stuff and friends again indicates anything

 

[Sega DogTagz]

9 minutes ago, Tornado said:

That long stretch last decade where all of his character flaws were scrubbed in order to bring better attention to how incorruptibly purely pure he was as a hero didn't help.

 

Even during that decade, they did take multiple steps to cut that down at the knees. They tarnished his perfection - many times in extravagant fashion at the climax of a story.

 

Everyone remembers Chip pitching woo at Sonic for being "too strong to lose himself" in 2008 but not a year earlier Sonic had done just that in Rivals 2. He wasn't so incorruptibly pure when the Ifrit was using him as his personal puppet.

For all the moral high ground he took during the decade, lets not forget that he was also willing to take on the mantle of a "the worst of knights" without even blinking. Didn't even hesitate.

He was a total dick in Chronicles

He couldn't deal with Marine in SRA, and was pretty much left drawing in the sand while Blaze handled his lightwork.

There is something to be said about the specific World Rings Sonic utilzied to turn into Darkspine... not all sunshine and rainbows there.

 

 

I won't argue that Sonic's negative traits got pushed to the side during the era, but we shouldn't pretend like they were nonexistent either. Sonic was never a perfect choir-boy, despite what the legion of side characters worshiping the ground he walks on would imply.

 

 

 

 

 

[StaticMania]

He couldn't deal with Marine...is not much of a thing, all 3 of them were annoyed. It's not like he snapped at her, like Blaze did.

While in Sonic Heroes and both Rivals games everyone was pretty scrap happy. No one's on their good behavior in those games honestly.

Losing his character flaws is the opposite of Kakarrot's thing. It's one way.

[Shadowlax]

 

 

 

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I won't argue that Sonic's negative traits got pushed to the side during the era, but we shouldn't pretend like they were nonexistent either. Sonic was never a perfect choir-boy, despite what the legion of side characters worshiping the ground he walks on would imply.

 

Most of what you said didn't actually matter, were minor annoyances, wasn't his doing at all or selfless actions. 

 

Let me give you a real example you should be uses, that isn't a bevy of excuses. Sonic boom sonic. Sonic boom sonic, is lazy, cocky full of himself and kind of a jerk. He also then gets called out on his bullshit, and gets his asswhipped. That's what people want not " he got mind controlled " not " Oh he is selfless he will take on the mantle of bad guy " a character making active choice to not be great and characters reacting to that. 

Now sonic as a character I feel has been moving more and more lately in that direction as time moves on, forces was a weird exception but... forces story doesn't really have characters, just lookalikes who exist ( or don't exist ) for plot reasons. 

None of the things you listed was that, an actual forreal flaw that people don't like

[StaticMania]

What about Sonic Lost World...his character flaw was a MAJOR part of that game. It took up like 6 cutscenes.

[NezumiVA]

I think the difference between an OP level like Sonic's and one like Goku's revolves very much around player agency. In an anime or manga, a main character like Goku could be seen as too overpowered to the detriment of the supporting cast. In a video game series however, some inherent level of OP abilities tend to come into play with mascot characters like Sonic. In a game series like Sonic, engagement, action and escapism are huge elements for the success of the games as a whole. Furthermore, video game stories are second priority to developers, which is somewhat sad but very true all the same. A story is most frequently meant to serve a game, not carry or build upon it - therefore the story has to be the building blocks for the gameplay, which should give the player a sense of power and ability.

A game series like Sonic isn't like, say, a Silent Hill where weakness and/or fragility is an artistic choice, it's very intentionally designed around high octane thrills and spectacle. Part of that spectacle is being a super powerful badass, and Sonic is the super powerful badass.

TL;DR Yes Sonic's pretty OP sometimes, but it's more to do with video game design philosophy than it is to do with just bad shonen power scaling.

[StaticMania]

This is more about character use than Video Game logic taking over...which shouldn't be questioned much.

[Dash Speed]

8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Nah

Sonic is getting the bad super hero comic treatment. Basically write characters who can solve the problem out of the narrative. Or conveniently have them unable to solve the problem. The thing about goku is that in lore outside of recent shenanigans he was the strongest. That isn't true for sonic by any means, so what they do is " Oh hey , shadow and blaze are missing and silver is a dumb ass now whooopsie doodle " and sort of try and sweep those plot gaps under the rug. Or just have them not included, they don't have to make stipulations like that for goku. 

That said, it seems people are growing more and more tired of it. If this call for all the adventure stuff and friends again indicates anything

 

Strong enough to whoop Shadow and Silvers butts in generations and in the comic he had more notable feats of OP power in his base/super form. Shadow played the jobber role even in super and Silver well he just stalls his foes until someone smarter helps him beat someone or someone beat someone for him,