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cakito123

Sonic has less invesment and budget than before

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Seva is lazy. Defend them all you want but yet again there is enough evidence to prove that. Take a step back from the high pedestal you have for them and read up on degas history. The entire reason they are now software developers is because they had no commitment to their own system. They used to but over time got cocky and greedy. From the Saturn issue all the way to the dreamcast.

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It's the exact same mentality.  my lord stop tan gushing over sega and look at many of their products if it's no 5he pichunko ring. Anarchy reigns. Great game x could have been great. Sega advertised it next to none. Same for binary domain. Unless its sonic plastered everywhere. And even then they f up every game they make. Always rushing out games for deadlines. No one but sega sets those deadlines. I'm not going to arguein a circle if no one defending sega cant use Google but 8t shows a lot when a handful of fans make a better game than long time sega employees on a bigger budget game

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You dont have to work at a company to know their practice.  you can do that through investor briefings or reports. I dont work at MS yet I can point out why they have a hard time selling in japan. Also anarchy is over 6 years old? And? I think I saw forces advertised 3 times on TV when it came out.  a company proud of their games will showcase it like the new tomb riader

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1 hour ago, Tracker_TD said:

The bad takes here are melting my brain more than this bout of gastroenteritis is melting my stomach. 

1. What Space Yeow said is pretty much correct as far as I can tell. It’s true they don’t work at SEGA and so can’t be certain - but the same is true of you, cakito. And they actually have citations and evidence to back them up, so do the maths.

1
8

Hi!
I already said a hundred times I'm not questioning what they did, because it is pretty obvious 75% of the game are old assets lol
What I replied to Space Yeow was exactly that I know all of what he said, and I totally agree 100%, I'm not blind. I was just (trying to) redirecting the conversation to >> why << they reutilized all of that so much, even considering all those 4 years in development.

I mean, I can understand all the bad game design choices. They thought it was a good idea.
But I'm finding kinda stupid that people are really believing the logic behind the reused assets were like...


"- Oh welp, guys, what are we making that is new to the franchise in Forces?
- Wow, I'm so lazy today, maaaan... I don't give a fuck about this game.
- Yeah, I don't care about it too... Whatever...
- Ok then, why don't we make 5 enemy types, take 100 old scenery assets and levels from other games, scatter randomly through the whole game with some straight line level design we already decided there will be, and call it a game????? 
😎 WOW GREAT IDEA GIRL, NOW WE'RE TALKING!! THIS IS HAPPENING BABY!!! I'M SOOO GONNA SLEEP MORE TODAY CUZ I'M TOO LAZYYY TO WORKKKK 😎 "

It is not realistic, ok? They have their names in the credits. 

Quote

2. There’s really nothing suggesting Forces lacked the budget of something like Generations. A new graphical engine, 3 playable styles including a full character creator, a lot of new assets (in addition to the old ones). Throwing more money at the design mentalities of Kishimoto isn’t going to make him a better director. You could give me £300 but I’m not going to magically be a better artist. 

Nothing... really?!
Considering there was a reason that was not laziness behind all that usage of old things... You really think that a tight/tiny budget can't be one of the reasons for that? Also, almost all new assets are copy-paste of the same stuff. Did you already realize for example, how the game uses the same floor, same walls and same platforms through Imperial Tower?

Also, Kishimoto is the same guy who directed Lost World and Colors, and both games had a consistent level design and art style, always refreshing with new environments to play in. That's not what Forces does. Throughout the whole game we're getting back at the same zones and levels again, only playing with different characters.

Of course throwing you £300 won't make you a better artist, but surely taking away from you £300 will make you a worse one, specially if you need this money to buy some materials for working.    

1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

It's the exact same mentality.  my lord stop tan gushing over sega and look at many of their products if it's no 5he pichunko ring. Anarchy reigns. Great game x could have been great. Sega advertised it next to none. Same for binary domain. Unless its sonic plastered everywhere. And even then they f up every game they make. Always rushing out games for deadlines. No one but sega sets those deadlines. I'm not going to arguein a circle if no one defending sega cant use Google but 8t shows a lot when a handful of fans make a better game than long time sega employees on a bigger budget game

I'm not defending Sega actually, because just like you, I don't know what happened. I'm bothered about how you are attacking Sonic Team calling them 'Lazy'.
I don't think it is fair calling a whole team 'Lazy' when you don't know what was happening in-development. You don't even know how Sega relates to Sonic Team. They are not one and the same. 

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43 minutes ago, cakito123 said:

Hi!
I already said a hundred times I'm not questioning what they did, because it is pretty obvious 75% of the game are old assets lol
What I replied to Space Yeow was exactly that I know all of what he said, and I totally agree 100%, I'm not blind. I was just (trying to) redirecting the conversation to >> why << they reutilized all of that so much, even considering all those 4 years in development.

I mean, I can understand all the bad game design choices. They thought it was a good idea.
But I'm finding kinda stupid that people are really believing the logic behind the reused assets were like...


"- Oh welp, guys, what are we making that is new to the franchise in Forces?
- Wow, I'm so lazy today, maaaan... I don't give a fuck about this game.
- Yeah, I don't care about it too... Whatever...
- Ok then, why don't we make 5 enemy types, take 100 old scenery assets and levels from other games, scatter randomly through the whole game with some straight line level design we already decided there will be, and call it a game????? 
😎 WOW GREAT IDEA GIRL, NOW WE'RE TALKING!! THIS IS HAPPENING BABY!!! I'M SOOO GONNA SLEEP MORE TODAY CUZ I'M TOO LAZYYY TO WORKKKK 😎 "

It is not realistic, ok? They have their names in the credits. 

Nothing... really?!
Considering there was a reason that was not laziness behind all that usage of old things... You really think that a tight/tiny budget can't be one of the reasons for that? Also, almost all new assets are copy-paste of the same stuff. Did you already realize for example, how the game uses the same floor, same walls and same platforms through Imperial Tower?

Also, Kishimoto is the same guy who directed Lost World and Colors, and both games had a consistent level design and art style, always refreshing with new environments to play in. That's not what Forces does. Throughout the whole game we're getting back at the same zones and levels again, only playing with different characters.

Of course throwing you £300 won't make you a better artist, but surely taking away from you £300 will make you a worse one, specially if you need this money to buy some materials for working.    

I'm not defending Sega actually, because just like you, I don't know what happened. I'm bothered about how you are attacking Sonic Team calling them 'Lazy'.
I don't think it is fair calling a whole team 'Lazy' when you don't know what was happening in-development. You don't even know how Sega relates to Sonic Team. They are not one and the same. 

They are a breached off team under a umbrella organization. 

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3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

It's the exact same mentality.  my lord stop tan gushing over sega and look at many of their products if it's no 5he pichunko ring. Anarchy reigns. Great game x could have been great. Sega advertised it next to none. Same for binary domain. Unless its sonic plastered everywhere. And even then they f up every game they make. Always rushing out games for deadlines. No one but sega sets those deadlines. I'm not going to arguein a circle if no one defending sega cant use Google but 8t shows a lot when a handful of fans make a better game than long time sega employees on a bigger budget game

 

So are we nitpicking just some of the bottom feeding games now? Just to try and prop up your argument?

Cause if you want to point the finger at games Sega published, then you're credibility goes right down the toilet. If you think Sega mismanagement was the driving factor that held back a game like Anarchy Reigns, then how do you explain Bayonetta before it? That one was a full-on masterclass, developed under the same conditions and the same team as AR. Great game could have been great. Great game was great. How about dishing some credit where credit is due.

 

And its worth pointing out that despite all the hype and perfect scores, and being an amazing game that set the bar for its genre, Bayonetta still under-performed sales wise. If Sega can put their best foot forward like that - and watch sales crater out anyway, that's disheartening.

That's why in recent years we've seen them move in a different direction. More testing the waters of fan demand and delivering on that sentiment. Valkyria Chronicles is back after testing the waters with several iterations of the original phenom. We see them adapting to how smaller structures like Atlus remain effective and profitable. We see them doubling down on Mania after they realized what they were sitting on. They arn't the company that's going to buy out super bowl ads. They are going to do their homework - develop whats in demand and cater to the audience to guarantee a profit. Sega has their fare share of issues, but I swear people around here are so blinded by Sonic Team sometimes that they can't recognize an effective business strategy when they see it.

 

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It's important to note that SEGA marketed Sonic Mania hard. When that game came out, it was popular on Youtube like a Nintendo game would be. I remembered how shocking and refreshing that was. Plus was marketed less aggressively, but it had a lot of work put in for a DLC/special edition release. The Mania Adventures shorts were produced merely for advertising, the informercials made for Youtube, the livestreams. It beats most DLC marketing strategies considerably. 

3 hours ago, Meta77 said:

It's the exact same mentality.  my lord stop tan gushing over sega and look at many of their products if it's no 5he pichunko ring. Anarchy reigns. Great game x could have been great. 

I'm not :P

I do think SEGA could put more attention to their old IPS, such as Jet Set Radio for example. I just think we should be balanced about it.

And in Meta77's defence, Sonic Team are lazy as fuck, lazy in imagination and creativity. All of their recent games have been dreadful or mechanically adequate.  They take no creative risks and push out the most uninspiring products imaginable. 

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15 minutes ago, Plasme said:

It's important to note that SEGA marketed Sonic Mania hard. When that game came out, it was popular on Youtube like a Nintendo game would be. I remembered how shocking and refreshing that was. Plus was marketed less aggressively, but it had a lot of work put in for a DLC/special edition release. The Mania Adventures shorts were produced merely for advertising, the informercials made for Youtube, the livestreams. It beats most DLC marketing strategies considerably. 

I'm not :P

I do think SEGA could put more attention to their old IPS, such as Jet Set Radio for example. I just think we should be balanced about it.

And in Meta77's defence, Sonic Team are lazy as fuck, lazy in imagination and creativity. All of their recent games have been dreadful or mechanically adequate.  They take no creative risks and push out the most uninspiring products imaginable. 

Do not speak that games name. We both know jet set is forever lost to us lol

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I think the reason for this is that Sega of America is shifting focus towards their other Japanese IPs (the Yakuza stuff, V.Chonicles, Puyo Puyo, Shining Force, etc). Also keep in mind that Sonic hasnt really been a triple A franchise in a while. I think Generations sold under 2 million units, which while not bad at all, isnt COD material and Sonic is supposed to be Sega's big franchise (at least in the west). Mania Plus sold extremely well, it got into many of the top 10 charts from what I can recall, so they might invest more money into it.

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Out of interest, has it ever been confirmed that Sonic Forces had a small budget? I know the final product feels like a glorified mobile game, but it was development in for 3 year which is a little bit longer than most Sonic games. I get the impression that something went wrong and they had redo the game in the final year of development which is why it feels so "underdeveloped". 

Team Sonic Racing also looks underfunded. But it seems like it is supposed to be a Christmas cash-in". i.e. Sega don't have a main game for Christmas 2018 and so just want a title so they can cash in on the holidays without taking too much budget away from the next main game. Sonic Spinball was the first of these, and Sega has a long tradition them. I also think with TSR they are being too ambitious. The Ai for the team players probably took up a lot of development resources. They should have dropped that and just made a regular racing game. 

So really, with Forces being the result of development problems and Team Racing seemingly being a cash-in, I think it's too early to conclude that Sega have slashed the Sonic budget. 

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7 hours ago, big_smile said:

Out of interest, has it ever been confirmed that Sonic Forces had a small budget? I know the final product feels like a glorified mobile game, but it was development in for 3 year which is a little bit longer than most Sonic games. I get the impression that something went wrong and they had redo the game in the final year of development which is why it feels so "underdeveloped". 

Team Sonic Racing also looks underfunded. But it seems like it is supposed to be a Christmas cash-in". i.e. Sega don't have a main game for Christmas 2018 and so just want a title so they can cash in on the holidays without taking too much budget away from the next main game. Sonic Spinball was the first of these, and Sega has a long tradition them. I also think with TSR they are being too ambitious. The Ai for the team players probably took up a lot of development resources. They should have dropped that and just made a regular racing game. 

So really, with Forces being the result of development problems and Team Racing seemingly being a cash-in, I think it's too early to conclude that Sega have slashed the Sonic budget. 

Lost World also shows signs of a low budget, such as with the more plastic graphics. But I guess this works also. Will wait until another game to see if the budget was reduced or these are just the consequences of Development Hell and Filler.

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I have been feeling this way for since Forces pre-release but there have been some arguments here that would dismiss that sentiment. So I won't go into that.

All I can say is this unsatisfactory statement: time will tell. And by time, I mean by 2019-2020 (no later than the 30th anniversary in 2021). 

Many people have been suspecting that there is another title that has been under wraps, under development for some time. Exactly when is another discussion but if it turns out to be true and 3D Sonic is getting another Generations tier or better treatment, then there may not be any such budget crisis. This is purely speculation.

At the moment though, big budget Sonic doesn't look great either way; either the money is still there and the talent isn't or vice versa. Neither problem has any straightforward solution for us diehard fans.

Part of me wishes the Sonic IP could find the right developer hands to resuscitate it but I also fear that there's a lot of potential for it to fall into the wrong hands. And I'm not hating on Sonic Team; I honestly think they don't know how to make 3D Sonic truly great and impactful to the degree Mania was and that's what they desperately need.

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I still can't get over how SoJ basically refused to print out Sonic games during the Saturn days. I STILL think they purposely sabotaged the series because it wasn't too big in their home country and you know how crabby those Japanese businessmen can get. They just didn't UNDERSTAND how loved and adored Sonic was in the West and pretty much everywhere else but Japan. They REFUSED to take advantage of it.

Now with Sonic's popularity waning, but especially in Japan where his presence is almost non-existent, you can tell SEGA is purposely taking its budget and shifting their focuses else where, even though there is still a hungry and attentive public to a GOOD Sonic game as Mania shewn. Could you imagine a 3D Game as polished and excellent as Mania? My god.

 

It's just a really tragic situation all around. I hate to see this to my blue hedgehog.

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Sonic Team aren't talentless. They have excellent artists and musicians, and at the very least competent programmers. The problem is mainly in the most important aspect of a gaming company - game design. Even then, I can't imagine everyone working in game design to be utterly without talent. The issue from the outside looks to me like a constant reduction in budget (see Sonic Forces, which copy-pastes most of Generations) and an over-reliance on nostalgia. Forces gameplay was a stripped down, shittier version of Generations. How did they make it worse? How did they add more automation, and worse controls/physics? Why are they doing this?

I've said it time and time again. The entirety of Sonic Team needs to go on holiday for a couple years. Work on some other projects and/or finish making the Hedgehog Engine 2 so that its not worse than the original Hedgehog Engine. Then when they've had some time and space to breathe, come back and re-examine what a 3D Sonic game should be. Make some prototypes behind closed doors. Make a few levels and get the creative juices flowing. Once the leadership is happy with the game engine and gameplay styles and have a vision of what the level design should be, start making the game for real. Fuck, even consult with other famous game designers who were fans of the classics, and get their input. Get Headcanon and Pagoda West in on the act. Get them to do a little bit of testing with the engine to fine-tune it. Its SEGA's flagship property, so they should throw money at it till its perfect. Quality control the fuck out of it. Give real licence to the writers to come up with an engaging story. Lose some of the edge, but don't allow it to be too cheesy. Make it earnest. A story that would make any player smile once its over. Let the musicians do what they do. Let the artists do what they do. Make it a graphical/visual/technical masterpiece, with a soundtrack that will melt not just your ears, but your soul. The thing needs to be fucking cohesive from all parts.

Maybe then. With a reinvigorated team, and a new vision of what Sonic should be, we might see a Sonic game that deserves to be compared to Mario.

Yes it will be expensive. But for the sake of a pop culture icon (no matter how you slice it) and your flagship fucking property. The very franchise that put you on the goddamn map. It'd be fucking worth paying for.

 

Dare a guy dream.

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18 hours ago, Scar said:

I've said it time and time again. The entirety of Sonic Team needs to go on holiday for a couple years. Work on some other projects and/or finish making the Hedgehog Engine 2 so that its not worse than the original Hedgehog Engine. Then when they've had some time and space to breathe, come back and re-examine what a 3D Sonic game should be. Make some prototypes behind closed doors. Make a few levels and get the creative juices flowing. Once the leadership is happy with the game engine and gameplay styles and have a vision of what the level design should be, start making the game for real. Fuck, even consult with other famous game designers who were fans of the classics, and get their input. Get Headcanon and Pagoda West in on the act. Get them to do a little bit of testing with the engine to fine-tune it. Its SEGA's flagship property, so they should throw money at it till its perfect. Quality control the fuck out of it. Give real licence to the writers to come up with an engaging story. Lose some of the edge, but don't allow it to be too cheesy. Make it earnest. A story that would make any player smile once its over. Let the musicians do what they do. Let the artists do what they do. Make it a graphical/visual/technical masterpiece, with a soundtrack that will melt not just your ears, but your soul. The thing needs to be fucking cohesive from all parts.

Maybe then. With a reinvigorated team, and a new vision of what Sonic should be, we might see a Sonic game that deserves to be compared to Mario.

Yes it will be expensive. But for the sake of a pop culture icon (no matter how you slice it) and your flagship fucking property. The very franchise that put you on the goddamn map. It'd be fucking worth paying for.

 

Dare a guy dream.

It could be said they did quite a bit of that with Forces already though. Even putting aside the "Forces was developed for four years" reminder...

- Endri back in 2014 said he got a glimpse of some prototypes they made (with one that "neither follows Generations or Lost World")

- Sonic Team said they took notes from Mania when making the game (aside from the Mania connections, classic Sonic has the drop dash)

- They spent two years on conceptual work / limited development (first year was the Hedgehog Engine, last year was full production)

- Sonic Team went to work on another project (Puyo Puyo Tetris...though from what I read, it's another department that handled that game despite being branded as a ST game) and otherwise put virtually all of their chips on this game (remember they were churning out [multiple] Sonic games annually at one point, the only Sonic Team Sonic game that came out since Lost World was the short-lived Runners mobile game)

- They got Shun Nakamura to come back as producer to helm a more serious tone (and brought in a level designer from Sonic Adventure 2 to help pen the story)...

-  ...while also making sure it doesn't get too serious/edgy by also bringing back Pontac and Warren

- They developed a new graphics engine (Hedgehog Engine II) from scratch (although Iizuka at one point said it was based off of the original)

- They went to the London Symphony Orchestra for composing the music...

...and they went all out on that front, check out this performance

- They made multiple variations of the levels (there's quite a few beta levels within Forces with higher difficulty) and even held a panel about what good level design was

- They brought in new level designers without past experience on the previous games (a new vision of Sonic)

- They settled on a vision for their level design "But in this game, you simply press and hold the button to attack. So you can really enjoy dashing through stages like a maniac ... we decided to design the game to be as simple and enjoyable as possible; focusing more on the excitement of dashing through the stages, without having to think about, you know, complex game controls."

;)

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1 hour ago, Space☆Yeow said:

I could be said they did quite a bit of that with Forces already though. Even putting aside the "Forces was developed for four years" reminder...

- Endri back in 2014 said he got a glimpse of some prototypes they made (with one that "neither follows Generations or Lost World")

- Sonic Team said they took notes from Mania when making the game (aside from the Mania connections, classic Sonic has the drop dash)

- They spent two years on conceptual work / limited development (first year was the Hedgehog Engine, last year was full production)

- Sonic Team went to work on another project (Puyo Puyo Tetris...though from what I read, it's another department that handled that game despite being branded as a ST game) and otherwise put virtually all of their chips on this game (remember they were churning out [multiple] Sonic games annually at one point, the only Sonic Team Sonic game that came out since Lost World was the short-lived Runners mobile game)

- They got Shun Nakamura to come back as producer to helm a more serious tone (and brought in a level designer from Sonic Adventure 2 to help pen the story)...

-  ...while also making sure it doesn't get too serious/edgy by also bringing back Pontac and Warren

- They developed a new graphics engine (Hedgehog Engine II) from scratch (although Iizuka at one point said it was based off of the original)

- They went to the London Symphony Orchestra for composing the music...

...and they went all out on that front, check out this performance

- They made multiple variations of the levels (there's quite a few beta levels within Forces with higher difficulty) and even held a panel about what good level design was

- They brought in new level designers without past experience on the previous games (a new vision of Sonic)

- They settled on a vision for their level design "But in this game, you simply press and hold the button to attack. So you can really enjoy dashing through stages like a maniac ... we decided to design the game to be as simple and enjoyable as possible; focusing more on the excitement of dashing through the stages, without having to think about, you know, complex game controls."

;)

Its depressing that with all that, this was the best thing that came out of it. Cause it doesn't look or play like 4 years worth of development. Its a game that borrows heavily from Generations, and is worse in literally every way possible. At this point, I'd like to find out WTF went wrong, and why they thought Forces in its current form, was a good idea.

Did some genius at the top decide that whatever prototype they were working on was too risky, and to follow some focus tested bs with a character creator and watered down Gens gameplay? I can't believe this game was the result of some grand vision. The inclusion of a character creator and classic Sonic, is too cynical. Its too lazy. The fact that they reuse assets from Generations. I cannot fathom how they'd need 4 years to make a game with derivative gameplay and reused assets. Unless they spent so long making the engine and fiddling with unused prototypes that they ran out of time and cobbled together that monstrosity of a game in time for release. Nakamura's comments about the reasoning behind the needless watering down on the gameplay, doesn't read as something any self respecting game designer would say. It sounds like what some suit who vaguely knows about games thinks a children's game should be. If that's genuinely how he feels Sonic games should be designed, then there's your problem.

 

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19 hours ago, LBomb said:

 I think Generations sold under 2 million units, which while not bad at all, isnt COD material and Sonic is supposed to be Sega's big franchise (at least in the west). Mania Plus sold extremely well, it got into many of the top 10 charts from what I can recall, so they might invest more money into it.

If COD is the measuring stick your going to use, then everything Sega has is going to fall short.

We are seeing them move to a more Atlus model where they have realistic expectations and smaller production models and don't need those mega-sales to deem something a success. They saw what they were doing with Games like Persona and decided to copy that strategy - thus we see steam and remakes of some of the games that have been vocally demanded over the last decade, and then investments when those ventures prove to have a suitable market.

 

10 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Lost World also shows signs of a low budget, such as with the more plastic graphics. But I guess this works also. Will wait until another game to see if the budget was reduced or these are just the consequences of Development Hell and Filler.

The graphics were an intentional design choice that fit the ease of design experiment the whole game seemed to be designed around. That had less to do about budget then it did ST looking to build up a new play/development style that could be more feasible going forward. If you want to question its budget, Lost World was probably the only recent game that didn't lean as heavily on reused assets.

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3 hours ago, Scar said:

Sonic Team aren't talentless. They have excellent artists and musicians, and at the very least competent programmers. The problem is mainly in the most important aspect of a gaming company - game design. Even then, I can't imagine everyone working in game design to be utterly without talent. The issue from the outside looks to me like a constant reduction in budget (see Sonic Forces, which copy-pastes most of Generations) and an over-reliance on nostalgia. Forces gameplay was a stripped down, shittier version of Generations. How did they make it worse? How did they add more automation, and worse controls/physics? Why are they doing this?

I've said it time and time again. The entirety of Sonic Team needs to go on holiday for a couple years. Work on some other projects and/or finish making the Hedgehog Engine 2 so that its not worse than the original Hedgehog Engine. Then when they've had some time and space to breathe, come back and re-examine what a 3D Sonic game should be. Make some prototypes behind closed doors. Make a few levels and get the creative juices flowing. Once the leadership is happy with the game engine and gameplay styles and have a vision of what the level design should be, start making the game for real. Fuck, even consult with other famous game designers who were fans of the classics, and get their input. Get Headcanon and Pagoda West in on the act. Get them to do a little bit of testing with the engine to fine-tune it. Its SEGA's flagship property, so they should throw money at it till its perfect. Quality control the fuck out of it. Give real licence to the writers to come up with an engaging story. Lose some of the edge, but don't allow it to be too cheesy. Make it earnest. A story that would make any player smile once its over. Let the musicians do what they do. Let the artists do what they do. Make it a graphical/visual/technical masterpiece, with a soundtrack that will melt not just your ears, but your soul. The thing needs to be fucking cohesive from all parts.

Maybe then. With a reinvigorated team, and a new vision of what Sonic should be, we might see a Sonic game that deserves to be compared to Mario.

Yes it will be expensive. But for the sake of a pop culture icon (no matter how you slice it) and your flagship fucking property. The very franchise that put you on the goddamn map. It'd be fucking worth paying for.

 

Dare a guy dream.

Dammit I cried.

I mean not really but if I were to have actually cried it would have made sense. To me. 

Anyway, dare two guys dream. It's a long running dream of mine since the late 90s. And I feel helpless because I know I can't contribute. I wish I could contribute somehow while still being able to keep my primary career (which was partially inspired by sonic, ironically) but I just dont have the time. Its crushing seeing my all-time favorite hero of gaming treated with so much less respect than he deserves. Sonic deserves a 3D masterpiece!! One that can stand toe to toe with mario!

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1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If COD is the measuring stick your going to use, then everything Sega has is going to fall short.

We are seeing them move to a more Atlus model where they have realistic expectations and smaller production models and don't need those mega-sales to deem something a success. They saw what they were doing with Games like Persona and decided to copy that strategy - thus we see steam and remakes of some of the games that have been vocally demanded over the last decade, and then investments when those ventures prove to have a suitable market.

 

The graphics were an intentional design choice that fit the ease of design experiment the whole game seemed to be designed around. That had less to do about budget then it did ST looking to build up a new play/development style that could be more feasible going forward. If you want to question its budget, Lost World was probably the only recent game that didn't lean as heavily on reused assets.

Alright, i’ll give the game that. But... could Forces’s massive shifts in design have been caused by the Boom catastrophe? This would lay with my theory that the budget cuts are a result of Boom failing.

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15 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Alright, i’ll give the game that. But... could Forces’s massive shifts in design have been caused by the Boom catastrophe? This would lay with my theory that the budget cuts are a result of Boom failing.

I wouldn't say that either. I think your overstating things.

Forces design fit the M/O of the guy who was in charge of it. While we were all looking forward to and expecting something that built on the more open levels and involved 3D platforming of Generations - the guy at the helm Morio Kishimoto - took the boost formula back to its generic easy to control autopilot-automated hallways and small bite gameplay last seen in Sonic Colors, which unsurprisingly was the last game he was in charge of.

Force's design philosophy wasn't some massive shift. It falls rather neatly in line with the directors previous efforts. The problem with that is no one, and I mean no one was looking for Sonic's 3D gameplay to go back to the Colors build. Its near universally considered the weakest entry in the boost formula and yet that's the route Forces was taken down. They didn't choose that because of budget. They chose that because Kishimoto has a raging hard on for having the gameplay be super accessible and his solution for that is to hand-hold whenever the perspective shifts to the third dimension. Outside of that, the bog standard 2D platformer of Classic Sonic was par for the course from previous entries in the series. The Avatar's gameplay didn't really do anything seismic to shake up the formula either.

 

While Boom must have hit Sega in the wallet like a black hole (for the videogames at least) its worth noting that they believed enough in it to greenlight a second 3DS game (and even significantly delayed its release to polish it up) and jump off the deep end and develop their own mobile game in Sonic Runners in the immediate aftermath (that one was not outsourced). So its not like they suddenly got cash strapped and stop spending. It looked very much like business as usual.

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I wouldn't say that either. I think your overstating things.

Forces design fit the M/O of the guy who was in charge of it. While we were all looking forward to and expecting something that built on the more open levels and involved 3D platforming of Generations - the guy at the helm Morio Kishimoto - took the boost formula back to its generic easy to control autopilot-automated hallways and small bite gameplay last seen in Sonic Colors, which unsurprisingly was the last game he was in charge of.

Force's design philosophy wasn't some massive shift. It falls rather neatly in line with the directors previous efforts. The problem with that is no one, and I mean no one was looking for Sonic's 3D gameplay to go back to the Colors build. Its near universally considered the weakest entry in the boost formula and yet that's the route Forces was taken down. They didn't choose that because of budget. They chose that because Kishimoto has a raging hard on for having the gameplay be super accessible and his solution for that is to hand-hold whenever the perspective shifts to the third dimension. Outside of that, the bog standard 2D platformer of Classic Sonic was par for the course from previous entries in the series. The Avatar's gameplay didn't really do anything seismic to shake up the formula either.

 

While Boom must have hit Sega in the wallet like a black hole (for the videogames at least) its worth noting that they believed enough in it to greenlight a second 3DS game (and even significantly delayed its release to polish it up) and jump off the deep end and develop their own mobile game in Sonic Runners in the immediate aftermath (that one was not outsourced). So its not like they suddenly got cash strapped and stop spending. It looked very much like business as usual.

I meant how it shifted in direction with itself during development, not from the prior games. But you’re right, it’s on Kishimoto. And to think I used to hate Pontaff...

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