What direction could Sonic possibly go towards at this point?

[Marco9966]

Just now, Phantom G said:

Well, then, I guess there really is no remedy to all these problems unless SEGA/Sonic Team properly learns from all the mistakes they've made instead of avoiding them like they have for so long. But hey, that reminds me, wasn't there an online survey conducted after Forces came out to see what critiques and concerns fans had with the series?

Yes, I filled it, I gave my opinions. I told them everything, Classic Sonic's uselessness, Infinite's rotten writing, Tails's personality butchering, everything.

I'm sure other people filled it too and expressed their distaste of the current state of Sonic.

But I feel they listened, because I noticed some nice things in Team Sonic Racing:

-Sonic and friends have a design closer to the Adventure games.

-Eggman's logo is the one from SA1

-Chao are playable (and also Chao movie 3 poster is seen)

-Crush 40 are back

So yeah, hopefully we go back to games with a style that is pre-2010.

[Phantom G]

It could be possible if Team Sonic Racing performs well in both sales and reception. But only time well tell, I'm afraid.

[Kazhnuz]

Marco, it would be really nice if you didn't add that much image in just a post. Not everybody have an especially good connection (and damn, I've got an awfull one, living in french rural zones), and I'm not sure that they really help your argument to be effective x)

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Riders didn't try to pander to the classic fans by bringing in Classic Sonic to help Modern Sonic win the race or having Green Hill and Chemical Pland and Death Egg as racing tracks !!! 

Honnestly, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It would even have been a nice nod, as the game is supposed to be a "world tour". Having stages for everywhere in the world would have worked pretty well. But tbh, I'm not unhappy with what we got. It wasn't coherent with the universe established before (as the world suddenly became an high-tech sci-fi world, while the Adventure established a "today world" with some sci-fi elements in some limited parts, showing that they really thought it as its own "narrative universe", with its own rules), but it was - for me - way nicer.

And that's something I would like to see again in Sonic, games that does their own things, instead of trying to "looks Sonic". And I wouldn't be angry with Sonic going full sci-fi (especially a pretty cheesy serie-B sci-fi like it was), too.

[Marco9966]

I wanted to visually show the greatness of the 1998-2008 era.

Is it comparable to 2008-2018??

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

I wanted to visually show the greatness of the 1998-2008 era.

Is it comparable to 2008-2018??

I know you're a big fan of the adventure era and I wouldnt try to sway you from that but can you honestly say with a straight face that the era from 1998-2008 was great? Besides the fact that it's become infamous for being the dark age of sonic, sonic saw a game so bad that the series has still never fully recovered from it. Even leading up to 2006, the reputation was already on the decline. This is a small point, I just honestly dont know how anyone could seriously believe that era was great outside of their own personal preference. You may have loved a lot of things from it, but objectively the franchise got in an awful lot of trouble for their design decisions during that time, which is why sonic team abandoned the so called adventure style in the first place. 

It just confuses me a little when people say this because I vividly remember this history of the franchise. When we talk about where the franchise should go next we kinda have to remember how we got here. Sonic was not sitting pretty during that time from 1998-2008, at all, regardless how passionate some people are about it. Maybe for the first 2-3 years while the dreamcast was still alive, but from there it was only downhill. When Iizuka says he doesnt want to go back to that....I mean I know some of you are confused by his statement but I know exactly what he means. It's kind of obvious, man.

[SaturnWolf]

Look Marco, I love the Adventure games too, but I think you're really over-selling how "epic" they are. We can debate the quality of Sonic stories all day but let's not pretend the plots from 1998 - 2008 are some Shakespearean masterpieces of storytelling, because I could list a trillion plotholes and inconsistencies in games like Shadow, '06, and things that just don't add up in the other games and I still wouldn't be even halfway done.

 

[Marco9966]

11 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

It just confuses me a little when people say this because I vividly remember this history of the franchise. When we talk about where the franchise should go next we kinda have to remember how we got here. Sonic was not sitting pretty during that time from 1998-2008, at all, regardless how passionate some people are about it. Maybe for the first 2-3 years while the dreamcast was still alive, but from there it was only downhill. When Iizuka says he doesnt want to go back to that....I mean I know some of you are confused by his statement but I know exactly what he means. It's kind of obvious, man.

So what you just want us to remain in this sorry state for Modern Sonic? Soulless games, soulless stories, classic pandering, no work on the graphics and lighting, shit physics...

I'd say Sonic 2006 hate is exaggerated. Sonic Forces is my own Sonic 2006 if you wanna know my lowest point in the franchise.

All the other games were great. Sonic 2006 is the only one that is bad. But it still had ambitions, soul, great music and nobody can deny it.

Many of the popular characters that are still loved and on demand today were conceived during the 1998-2008 era (Shadow, Silver, Rouge, Blaze, Chao...)

9 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

Look Marco, I love the Adventure games too, but I think you're really over-selling how "epic" they are. We can debate the quality of Sonic stories all day but let's not pretend the plots from 1998 - 2008 are some Shakespearean masterpieces of storytelling, because I could list a trillion plotholes and inconsistencies in games like Shadow, '06, and things that just don't add up in the other games and I still wouldn't be even halfway done.

 

We could also do that for Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces... ESPECIALLY Sonic Forces, which is the most recent Sonic game.

I'd agree if today's games were better than 1998-2008, but it is simply not the case...

[SaturnWolf]

 

14 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

We could also do that for Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces... ESPECIALLY Sonic Forces, which is the most recent Sonic game.

I'd agree if today's games were better than 1998-2008, but it is simply not the case...

My statement was not to say that those games were masterful at storytelling, but to tell you that you were overselling the quality of those games. I love Adventure 1, but I really don't know if I could recommend it without the veneer of nostalgia, since, well, it's kind of a mess when you take a step back and look at the whole picture.

 

And saying which games are "better" is purely subjective. Sans Unleashed, I agree, I enjoy the Adventure games way more than the recent entries, but to say definitively that they're "better" is simply not true because I can name at least 5 things that even Lost World does better than games like Heroes or Adventure 2.

[Dash Speed]

In order to analyze what Sonic needs in the future as a on going series, we must keep the brand from going stale in it's own self image, which is about Sonic. Overall, the games and the series runs off how the brand is cool, how Sonic is cool. Even in the comic, Sonic is cooler than everything around him and about him, while the story engages from that, Sonic's brand needs to focus all it's devotion in making that type of appeal reach kids and adults, while focusing on the characters mattering when a game or a tie in spin off is created with the intention of making them feel cool. So far, IDW is just really using Sonic at his most memetic and renown as a character, Sonic in these narratives is a larger than life badass like the Fonz who puts all his competence and worldly fame in effect like acting like some meta brand of his iconic status similar to the real world, and he's so far has most gifted role of the story and is the most trusted and loved character, it's basically saying Sonic is like Mickey Mouse, a automatic worshiped symbol that has nothing to prove as a character who must earn his heroic development or make steps in improving his role like Silver, he's Sonic the Hedgehog, and he's better than everyone which is what the brand should do for every other attempt at a constant level of quality. The other characters need to be powerful and cool as well, they develop less as characters when Sonic is there to play off them, as a person who makes them feel worthless without him.

[Kazhnuz]

Even if I agree that I prefered the story of the Adventure era (except the purely formal quality of the writing, that was clunky as hell. On that point, Pontaff game shows that they are written by real writers in english, with a good sense of the flowing of sentence and all), I strongly disagree that there is nothing to keep from the current era. I would say, I think that there are many point were the current era is better than the Adventure era. I grow up with the Adventure era, but it have many things to learn from current Sonic Team game (I don't take Boom in it).

Boost gameplay as its problems, but it solve at least two of the biggest problem of the Adventure era : cameras and high-speed gameplay (that is often either bad or not real gameplay in the pre-boost era). Generations gameplay is loved by a lot of people. That doesn't mean that it's perfect or that there is nothing to improve on it, but it show that it has an appeal that make a lot of people happy. It has something (for me this something was: pure fun). Even Lost World, if imperfect, had a lot of potential, and had some element that could really improve Adventure games (for instance the multi-homming attack : it could make more fun badnics that take multiple hits).

Graphically, even if the last few game had a simpler artstyle, there is a lot of work in the current era. Levels are often full of life and details, the Hedgehog Engine produce wonderful lighting (tbh just how a good level port in Sonic Forces can give life to a level impress me) and sometimes breathtaking visuals. I think that Egg Gates (Sonic Forces) is one of my favourite levels just for the sharp lighting that create a real "space" feeling. Even Sonic Lost World, despite is simpler art style have consistent 60 FPS while having a quite polished looks. TBH I think that graphics are were the current era do the best job. I just think that they should do more Marza cutscenes, those were the best (for instance, the battle scene could have been way more epic Marza-made, but the problem was the avatar xD)

Musically… well I love every era musically xD The only thing that I prefered in Adventure-era was it was a bit more diverse, but modern era music level is often really catchy and there are some of my favourite theme in it (Infinite's theme is my love).

 

Sonic Forces was the first try to mix Adventure era with (and there is a lot of Adventure references in it too, btw) Modern era. And I think that the intention was quite good, and I liked that they tried to show the other character as more competent than in the last few games (even if for Tails it's difficult to see that basically, he is the one who prepared all the strategies and stuff that helped save the day xD). It failed, for a multitude of reason, but I'd like them to continue trying that kind of mix. Changing the things that they did wrong (for instance having Pontaff as U.S. writers, as I kinda like the japanese original writer, who did a great job on Rhythm Thief ; or having a budget and dev time not adapted for what a game would need).

[Marco9966]

6 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

In order to analyze what Sonic needs in the future as a on going series, we must keep the brand from going stale in it's own self image, which is about Sonic. Overall, the games and the series runs off how the brand is cool, how Sonic is cool. Even in the comic, Sonic is cooler than everything around him and about him, while the story engages from that, Sonic's brand needs to focus all it's devotion in making that type of appeal reach kids and adults, while focusing on the characters mattering when a game or a tie in spin off is created with the intention of making them feel cool. So far, IDW is just really using Sonic at his most memetic and renown as a character, Sonic in these narratives is a larger than life badass like the Fonz who puts all his competence and worldly fame as some meta brand of his iconic status similar to the real world, and he's so far has most gifted role of the story and is the most trusted and loved character, it's basically saying Sonic is like Mickey Mouse, a automatic worshiped symbol that has nothing to prove as a character who must earn his heroic development or make steps in improving his role like Silver, he's Sonic the Hedgehog, and he's better than everyone which is what the brand should do for every other attempt at a constant level of quality. The other characters need to be powerful and cool as well, they develop less as characters when Sonic is there to play off them, as a person who makes them feel worthless without him.

In the MCU there's Iron Man the cocky guy, but all the other superheroes are also badass and don't act like cheerleaders  when Iron Man fights an ennemy.

3 minutes ago, Kazhnuz said:

Sonic Forces was the first try to mix Adventure era with (and there is a lot of Adventure references in it too, btw) Modern era.

That's one thing I liked and I hope they keep doing it.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

So what you just want us to remain in this sorry state for Modern Sonic? Soulless games, soulless stories, classic pandering, no work on the graphics and lighting, shit physics...

I'd say Sonic 2006 hate is exaggerated. Sonic Forces is my own Sonic 2006 if you wanna know my lowest point in the franchise.

All the other games were great. Sonic 2006 is the only one that is bad. But it still had ambitions, soul, great music and nobody can deny it.

Many of the popular characters that are still loved and on demand today were conceived during the 1998-2008 era (Shadow, Silver, Rouge, Blaze, Chao...)

We could also do that for Sonic Generations, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces... ESPECIALLY Sonic Forces, which is the most recent Sonic game.

I'd agree if today's games were better than 1998-2008, but it is simply not the case...

No one wants 3D sonic to be on life support like he is now. Not me, you, no one here. But clearly the answer to sonic problems does not lie in returning to a style that got him in hot water in the first place. This does not mean that everything adventure equals bad but that era youre putting on a pedestal did more to destroy the franchise reputation as a consistent, quality franchise than any other time did, when you look at how the games were received during that time. Actually, it's not even close, especially since the next three main titles following sonic 2006 all saw improved critical reception over any title since SA2 for the dreamcast. 

I'm just saying, even though a lot of love exists for the adventure titles, they were never anything like a high point of the franchise outside of their diehard fans. They actually started most of the bad trends that got sonic in trouble to begin with, which is why IIzuka made the statement he made. If it weren't true, then we would have gone back to that a long time ago. SEGA only caters to the classic era stuff because it's what put them on the map in the first place and still maintains a good reputation.... and they dont know where to go next (which is bad). Iizuka is right. We cant go back to that; it may make some fans happy but it will not improve sonic's current design problems. Actually, we would regress quite a bit.

So what's next then? Hard to say. There are things I dont like about the boost games and I do think sonic can in general be a lot better as a 3D platformer. They at least have an argument for having had some success over the last 10 years. I would say though, depending on what kind of scale sonic team wants to make their games, sonic could stay with the boost formula if they want to primarily just stay afloat....or move away from it if they want if to become a giant success again.

[Shadowlax]

20 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

No one wants 3D sonic to be on life support like he is now. Not me, you, no one here. But clearly the answer to sonic problems does not lie in returning to a style that got him in hot water in the first place. This does not mean that everything adventure equals bad but that era youre putting on a pedestal did more to destroy the franchise reputation as a consistent, quality franchise than any other time did, when you look at how the games were received during that time. Actually, it's not even close, especially since the next three main titles following sonic 2006 all saw improved critical reception over any title since SA2 for the dreamcast. 

I'm just saying, even though a lot of love exists for the adventure titles, they were never anything like a high point of the franchise outside of their diehard fans. They actually started most of the bad trends that got sonic in trouble to begin with, which is why IIzuka made the statement he made. If it weren't true, then we would have gone back to that a long time ago. SEGA only caters to the classic era stuff because it's what put them on the map in the first place and still maintains a good reputation.... and they dont know where to go next (which is bad). Iizuka is right. We cant go back to that; it may make some fans happy but it will not improve sonic's current design problems. Actually, we would regress quite a bit.

So what's next then? Hard to say. There are things I dont like about the boost games and I do think sonic can in general be a lot better as a 3D platformer. They at least have an argument for having had some success over the last 10 years. I would say though, depending on what kind of scale sonic team wants to make their games, sonic could stay with the boost formula if they want to primarily just stay afloat....or move away from it if they want if to become a giant success again.

I feel like your mindset requires to to pretend people don't like the shit out of sonic adventure 1 and 2. And magically pretend that sonic adventure 3 doesn't trend on twitter every time a sonic game announcement comes up. It requires ignoring that shadow is still more popular than all the other characters that exists. It requires ignoring that the ferver for adventure era shit that exists in general right now which is why izuka is giving more statements on the matter. And why they have been trying to appeal to that crowd as of late. So not it wasn't just die hard fans... a lot of people... like sonic adventure 1 and 2 and if a 3rd one was announced or an official successor a lot of people would loose their minds . 

On top of of all this you seem to have created a narrative in your head about how there's no where to go from the adventure era formula which is why iizuka said what he said. One because iizuka has said they ain't doing shit, and then proceeded to do shit when people asked for it, and the man was surprised people liked mania so much so the idea that you are taking this statement out of all his statements at face value is disingenuous at best and kind of reveal your fairly obvious anti adventure motives. 

2nd thing is , well its simpler than all that. The reason he gave that statement is money. Do you how much a modern version of a sonic adventure game would cost? A lot more than they are willing to spend on sonic games nowadays. There's a lot of shit, and expectations that go into adventure. Which is why every time they have tried to name a game that they stopped themselves. Heck they even say " We can make a sonic adventure game, it will be called adventure but it wont be what you want " . There's a lot of expectations that in a modern context requires a lot of money. And they just don't want to spend that to make a game they might not even be sure they can make at this point 

[G.U.N. Commander Gogol]

I would buy the shit out of SA 3 or ShTH 2, that's for sure. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like your mindset requires to to pretend people don't like the shit out of sonic adventure 1 and 2. And magically pretend that sonic adventure 3 doesn't trend on twitter every time a sonic game announcement comes up. It requires ignoring that shadow is still more popular than all the other characters that exists. It requires ignoring that the ferver for adventure era shit that exists in general right now which is why izuka is giving more statements on the matter. And why they have been trying to appeal to that crowd as of late. So not it wasn't just die hard fans... a lot of people... like sonic adventure 1 and 2 and if a 3rd one was announced or an official successor a lot of people would loose their minds . 

On top of of all this you seem to have created a narrative in your head about how there's no where to go from the adventure era formula which is why iizuka said what he said. One because iizuka has said they ain't doing shit, and then proceeded to do shit when people asked for it, and the man was surprised people liked mania so much so the idea that you are taking this statement out of all his statements at face value is disingenuous at best and kind of reveal your fairly obvious anti adventure motives. 

2nd thing is , well its simpler than all that. The reason he gave that statement is money. Do you how much a modern version of a sonic adventure game would cost? A lot more than they are willing to spend on sonic games nowadays. There's a lot of shit, and expectations that go into adventure. Which is why every time they have tried to name a game that they stopped themselves. Heck they even say " We can make a sonic adventure game, it will be called adventure but it wont be what you want " . There's a lot of expectations that in a modern context requires a lot of money. And they just don't want to spend that to make a game they might not even be sure they can make at this point 

I mean, some people like sonic adventure 1 and 2. And want sonic adventure 3. A lot even. I'm not trying to undersell that those games have a lot of fans. But so do the classic games. Why do the classic games get attention and the adventure games not so much? Because the rest of the universe outside of the vocal adventure fans dont want it and dont remember them fondly like you do.

Although received well while the dreamcast was still alive, SA1&2 were already being heavily criticized by the gaming media as early as 2002 for the same things critics say about them now. It's not narrative at all. I remember because, this may come as a surprise to you...but I was a fan who in 2005 wanted a sonic adventure 3. Me. I wanted it like you all are clamoring for it now. From sonic adventure 2 battle, to heroes, to shadow, 3 games in a row, a lot of critics and gamers noted how the series was declining from what it used to be. Sonic 2006 was marketed as the game that rebooted everything and save the franchise, not too dissimilar to what forces was supposed to do after boom tanked the series reputation again. I wanted sonic to be awesome like I thought he was going to be prior to SA1 (which is among my favorite games in the series even with its issues). But we all know how that turned out.

When you say "people", you may feel that almost everyone wants what you want and that SA3 is something super popular that everyone wants....but if it were, SEGA would have ordered the game made long ago. Without question, there is no debate whatsoever. SA3 does not have the wide demand that you think it does. It does among the sonic fanbase, but not among the general gaming community. Can I absolutely prove this? Well, I dont know. My opinion is based on the history i have witnessed as a fan, which is essentially since the beginning. Iizuka is nervous about the adventure stuff because those games, even though loved by many, were also heavily criticized by equally as many for introducing many polarizing elements and confusing expectations of a sonic game. If I felt like it (I really dont) I could link you to numerous interviews in which he talks about lessons they've learned from things that were not popular about the series during that time, and why they do not want to return to it.

 

This is all to say, it's certainly possible that a game titled SA3 happens one day. Fans have been pretty loud about it....but the loudness is concentrated among a smaller crowd than you might believe, which is why it hasnt happened yet.

 

As far as the other bits about being anti adventure gameplay and iizuka not meaning what he said....well, I dont know how else to put it other than......thats a load of garbage. Both sonic adventure 1 and 2 have one of the worst cameras in gaming history, even compared to other platformers at the time. And the sonic's shitty friends meme was invented because people complained very heavily about having to do a bunch of crap that didnt play like it belonged in the game and was a boring slog. This fits into my earlier point, but this is why Iizuka doesnt want to go back to it. I'm not guessing about this, he said it out of his own mouth. I can dig up the interview where he said it verbatim about the alternative gameplay styles being a mistake and most fans not wanting it, but he does not want to return to the style of genre roulette because it doesnt work for the franchise and is not popular except among the most diehard of fans. 

There is no reason why sonic cant find success in 3D and it does not need to emulate the adventure games to do so, especially since they were not a successful gameplay blueprint. Even when just looking at only the sonic sections, there are lots of design issues that they can avoid by following a different design philosophy. They know that too (which is why they went to the boost games in the first place) but haven't thought of a proper solution yet.

 

 

[Phantom G]

31 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I mean, some people like sonic adventure 1 and 2. And want sonic adventure 3. A lot even. I'm not trying to undersell that those games have a lot of fans. But so do the classic games. Why do the classic games get attention and the adventure games not so much? Because the rest of the universe outside of the vocal adventure fans dont want it and dont remember them fondly like you do.

Although received well while the dreamcast was still alive, SA1&2 were already being heavily criticized by the gaming media as early as 2002 for the same things critics say about them now. It's not narrative at all. I remember because, this may come as a surprise to you...but I was a fan who in 2005 wanted a sonic adventure 3. Me. I wanted it like you all are clamoring for it now. From sonic adventure 2 battle, to heroes, to shadow, 3 games in a row, a lot of critics and gamers noted how the series was declining from what it used to be. Sonic 2006 was marketed as the game that rebooted everything and save the franchise, not too dissimilar to what forces was supposed to do after boom tanked the series reputation again. I wanted sonic to be awesome like I thought he was going to be prior to SA1 (which is among my favorite games in the series even with its issues). But we all know how that turned out.

When you say "people", you may feel that almost everyone wants what you want and that SA3 is something super popular that everyone wants....but if it were, SEGA would have ordered the game made long ago. Without question, there is no debate whatsoever. SA3 does not have the wide demand that you think it does. It does among the sonic fanbase, but not among the general gaming community. Can I absolutely prove this? Well, I dont know. My opinion is based on the history i have witnessed as a fan, which is essentially since the beginning. Iizuka is nervous about the adventure stuff because those games, even though loved by many, were also heavily criticized by equally as many for introducing many polarizing elements and confusing expectations of a sonic game. If I felt like it (I really dont) I could link you to numerous interviews in which he talks about lessons they've learned from things that were not popular about the series during that time, and why they do not want to return to it.

 

This is all to say, it's certainly possible that a game titled SA3 happens one day. Fans have been pretty loud about it....but the loudness is concentrated among a smaller crowd than you might believe, which is why it hasnt happened yet.

 

As far as the other bits about being anti adventure gameplay and iizuka not meaning what he said....well, I dont know how else to put it other than......thats a load of garbage. Both sonic adventure 1 and 2 have one of the worst cameras in gaming history, even compared to other platformers at the time. And the sonic's shitty friends meme was invented because people complained very heavily about having to do a bunch of crap that didnt play like it belonged in the game and was a boring slog. This fits into my earlier point, but this is why Iizuka doesnt want to go back to it. I'm not guessing about this, he said it out of his own mouth. I can dig up the interview where he said it verbatim about the alternative gameplay styles being a mistake and most fans not wanting it, but he does not want to return to the style of genre roulette because it doesnt work for the franchise and is not popular except among the most diehard of fans. 

There is no reason why sonic cant find success in 3D and it does not need to emulate the adventure games to do so, especially since they were not a successful gameplay blueprint. Even when just looking at only the sonic sections, there are lots of design issues that they can avoid by following a different design philosophy. They know that too (which is why they went to the boost games in the first place) but haven't thought of a proper solution yet.

 

 

Well said. So, now that all of this has been brought to everyone's attention, are we all clear on the main problems that 3D Sonic games suffer from in general? No biased statements about the Adventure era having objectively better games than what we've received in the modern era or anything like that? Cuz the main reason I made this post was not only to hear people's opinions on the potential future of the series but also to correctly assess all of the good as well as the faults from Sonic games in recent memory. That's all I'm trying to do here.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

4 minutes ago, Phantom G said:

Well said. So, now that all of this has been brought to everyone's attention, are we all clear on the main problems that 3D Sonic games suffer from in general? No biased statements about the Adventure era having objectively better games than what we've received in the modern era or anything like that? Cuz the main reason I made this post was not only to hear people's opinions on the potential future of the series but also to correctly assess all of the good as well as the faults from Sonic games in recent memory. That's all I'm trying to do here.

As far as the more recent games go, I think that Sonic Team was well aware of the limitations for the boost formula and that's part of what birthed sonic lost world. I remember interviews from before release about how much they wanted to bring the classic momentum gameplay into 3D and thought they had done a solid job on creating a foundation for future games. They'd said numerous times even after the game flopped in terms of sales that they believed the lost world formula had potential. They knew that as far as 3D platformers go, one could hardly claim a game like generations. Its more of a hybrid racer type than a platformer.

I think they might want to try something different next but considering that lost world was sort of their recent experiment in that, I'm not sure they know which way to go. I think they probably have a few prototypes theyve worked on behind closed doors. As mentioned before, there have been community members who have even seen some of these (endri from 2014). 

There is a video about the single biggest problem 3D sonic developers dont seem to see by a youtuber and I think it is extremely relevant here. 

I honestly couldn't agree more and see so much potential in a fully 3D context for sonic rather than what has been done primarily since sonic adventure.

[Phantom G]

Okay. So, to give a quick summarization of what this guy discussed: Most, if not all 3D Sonic games are plagued by linearity, automation, and less than ideal level design given Sonic's speed and imprecise controls. These are all very valid points. And fans have certainly taken it upon themselves to fix all of these issues with fan games like Utopia mentioned in the video above, and Sonic Infinity created by Ōban.

I think this video by BlazeHedgehog also goes into what could be done to lessen or even remove all of these problems entirely from 3D Sonic.

 

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I mean, some people like sonic adventure 1 and 2. And want sonic adventure 3. A lot even. I'm not trying to undersell that those games have a lot of fans. But so do the classic games. Why do the classic games get attention and the adventure games not so much? Because the rest of the universe outside of the vocal adventure fans dont want it and dont remember them fondly like you do.

Although received well while the dreamcast was still alive, SA1&2 were already being heavily criticized by the gaming media as early as 2002 for the same things critics say about them now. It's not narrative at all. I remember because, this may come as a surprise to you...but I was a fan who in 2005 wanted a sonic adventure 3. Me. I wanted it like you all are clamoring for it now. From sonic adventure 2 battle, to heroes, to shadow, 3 games in a row, a lot of critics and gamers noted how the series was declining from what it used to be. Sonic 2006 was marketed as the game that rebooted everything and save the franchise, not too dissimilar to what forces was supposed to do after boom tanked the series reputation again. I wanted sonic to be awesome like I thought he was going to be prior to SA1 (which is among my favorite games in the series even with its issues). But we all know how that turned out.

When you say "people", you may feel that almost everyone wants what you want and that SA3 is something super popular that everyone wants....but if it were, SEGA would have ordered the game made long ago. Without question, there is no debate whatsoever. SA3 does not have the wide demand that you think it does. It does among the sonic fanbase, but not among the general gaming community. Can I absolutely prove this? Well, I dont know. My opinion is based on the history i have witnessed as a fan, which is essentially since the beginning. Iizuka is nervous about the adventure stuff because those games, even though loved by many, were also heavily criticized by equally as many for introducing many polarizing elements and confusing expectations of a sonic game. If I felt like it (I really dont) I could link you to numerous interviews in which he talks about lessons they've learned from things that were not popular about the series during that time, and why they do not want to return to it.

 

This is all to say, it's certainly possible that a game titled SA3 happens one day. Fans have been pretty loud about it....but the loudness is concentrated among a smaller crowd than you might believe, which is why it hasnt happened yet.

 

As far as the other bits about being anti adventure gameplay and iizuka not meaning what he said....well, I dont know how else to put it other than......thats a load of garbage. Both sonic adventure 1 and 2 have one of the worst cameras in gaming history, even compared to other platformers at the time. And the sonic's shitty friends meme was invented because people complained very heavily about having to do a bunch of crap that didnt play like it belonged in the game and was a boring slog. This fits into my earlier point, but this is why Iizuka doesnt want to go back to it. I'm not guessing about this, he said it out of his own mouth. I can dig up the interview where he said it verbatim about the alternative gameplay styles being a mistake and most fans not wanting it, but he does not want to return to the style of genre roulette because it doesnt work for the franchise and is not popular except among the most diehard of fans. 

There is no reason why sonic cant find success in 3D and it does not need to emulate the adventure games to do so, especially since they were not a successful gameplay blueprint. Even when just looking at only the sonic sections, there are lots of design issues that they can avoid by following a different design philosophy. They know that too (which is why they went to the boost games in the first place) but haven't thought of a proper solution yet.

 

 

That's a lot of words to say nothing

Also some historical revisionism in there, I think you are doing to assume i'm a child or something? 

Like you gonna actually make an argument or what, or to be honest I don't think you can actually make an argument in this scenario since its preference , so I guess this is why you have resorted to this

 

[Dash Speed]

12 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like your mindset requires to to pretend people don't like the shit out of sonic adventure 1 and 2. And magically pretend that sonic adventure 3 doesn't trend on twitter every time a sonic game announcement comes up. It requires ignoring that shadow is still more popular than all the other characters that exists. It requires ignoring that the ferver for adventure era shit that exists in general right now which is why izuka is giving more statements on the matter. And why they have been trying to appeal to that crowd as of late. So not it wasn't just die hard fans... a lot of people... like sonic adventure 1 and 2 and if a 3rd one was announced or an official successor a lot of people would loose their minds . 

On top of of all this you seem to have created a narrative in your head about how there's no where to go from the adventure era formula which is why iizuka said what he said. One because iizuka has said they ain't doing shit, and then proceeded to do shit when people asked for it, and the man was surprised people liked mania so much so the idea that you are taking this statement out of all his statements at face value is disingenuous at best and kind of reveal your fairly obvious anti adventure motives. 

2nd thing is , well its simpler than all that. The reason he gave that statement is money. Do you how much a modern version of a sonic adventure game would cost? A lot more than they are willing to spend on sonic games nowadays. There's a lot of shit, and expectations that go into adventure. Which is why every time they have tried to name a game that they stopped themselves. Heck they even say " We can make a sonic adventure game, it will be called adventure but it wont be what you want " . There's a lot of expectations that in a modern context requires a lot of money. And they just don't want to spend that to make a game they might not even be sure they can make at this point 

How many times are we gonna go through this? Shadow isn't Universally loved, despite being popular. Shadow has varying levels of "love" and "hate" amongst fans while the Classic Sonic leads and villain do not, as they define the whole market to promote each game. Shadow can barely get some critical praise without someone complaining about him with fans defending him being in the games. The problem here is the games are either too classic biased to make modern character raise on the same level of importance as the classic mains, or their to afraid to take risks in using characters like Shadow, Rouge or Silver because they have so many haters and complainers it sours the market for essential gamers or fans who only think inside the box of Sonic being mandatory with the only characters being from Sonic 3 and Knuckles or Sonic CD.

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I agree blindly chasing after the Adventure games again isn't a good idea, they got some serious issues.
Thing is, they're more liked for their general energy and concepts more then their specific tehnical execution.
But man, I'd be lying if there Sonic team's pursuit to their new directions haven't cost many good elements that get lost in the scuffle either.
So looking back at the old games to see what's been missing wouldn't be bad either.


If there's one thing I think the Adventure era(And Classic era for that matter) did better then modern Sonic is having convictions in it's themes.
Sonic adventure is about ancient civilization Aztec stuff. And aside from some general Dr. Eggman havoc and some city levels, the game is entirely devoted to it, temples, jungles, a story about the ancient tribe, a villain from the ancient legends, the whole package.
Or even a game like Shadow, call it misguided and an ill fit for the Sonic series what you want, but IF you are interested in the whole "Dark Edgey hedgehog battling aliens" theme it presents, you'll get what you want with the game entirely devoted to it.
Sonic Rush Adventure has a pirate theme, so it has pirate levels, pirate villains, a story about a hunting treasure, gameplay revolving around sailing the seas.
Sonic CD embraces it's time travel, Sonic Unleashed is all about world traveling (altough wasting it's werehog theme) Sonic and the black knight it's King Arthur stuff, SA2 it's goverment consipiracy militairy themes.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
All with the music, the villains, the level themes and gameplay elements devoted to the central theme.
If you like the theme they're going for, they got you covered.


But modern Sonic just can't stick to it's guns for some reason. How come Sonic adventure managed to pack more Themepark gameplay gimicks in one fricking level then Sonic Colors did across it's entire game?
Lost world gives us a fantastic parkours style gameplay, yet I hardly remember more then 5% of the game having levels designed around it and is either about completely unrelated gimicks or have a level design fighting AGAINST the parkours style, with flat and cramped stages.
Never mind it's story themes, you got Japanese demons, Eggman having juice giving his robots super power, The lost hidden continent of the future/ illusions and none of those are explored and utilized beyond the bare minimum.
And Sonic Forces is so desperatly bouncing between being Sonic Lost world 2 and Sonic World war 2 that it gives me a whiplash.

And while I can credit Sonic Colors for at least having a decent flow and focused direction to its story, but Lost world and Forces seem to just blindly stumble from disconnected plotpoint to disconnected plotpoint. As much as I love mocking, say, Sonic Rush for it's hamfisted and awkward moral that Blaze needs to accept Sonic as her lord and saviour, at least the game does spend a lot of time and energy selling that plot.
Beats me how Sonic Forces suddenly stumbles into a "And it's all because of friendship!"conclusions by the end.

It's really fascinating how Modern Sonic's writing in terms of dialogue improved and made it more smooth and natural instead of the more jerky and awkward speech from the Adventure era, but as far as plot progression is written, it went in reverse.

The only time modern Sonic seems to be able to stick to it's theme is whenever a game is based entirely around recycling the past, like Generations, Mania and so on.
And surprise, they tend to be the most fun, cohesive and well executed.
All other games seem to desperatly cram in as many ideas as possible.
Really wish we could get a Sonic game that's really ABOUT something again, instead of piles of vaguely interesting ideas chocking each other to death.


This is also why I don't see the point of any "I hope the next Sonic game will be Serious/ Funny/ About Blaze/ Sonic adveture 3/ Sonic Cd 2/ 3d platformer/ boost" arguments.
Doesn't matter what theme they pick next time if the other 95% of the game will blindly stumble into 25 contradicting directions.
 

[Myst]

Well said Roger.

[Tarnish]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:24 AM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

It's really fascinating how Modern Sonic's writing in terms of dialogue improved and made it more smooth and natural instead of the more jerky and awkward speech from the Adventure era.

I know it's not really worth arguing about difference in opinions, but I get the exact opposite impressions regarding the dialogue. I admit, the SA1 dialogue was the worst contender, but IMO starting with SA2, it became pretty fluid and smooth between the characters (there were exceptions in some scenes of course). Sonic 2006 was garbage again, Unleashed might have had the most polished dialogue, but starting with Colors, it all went downhill. There's nothing more awkward if you ask me than endlessly monologing to an inanimate robot MULTIPLE TIMES (Sonic Colors) or about some deep topic (friendship) monologue out of nowhere when you were all jokes and goofyness up until that point.

[GreenEyes98]

Sonic has a lot going for it at this point. I think he's in the best spot for the creators to really see where the franchise should go.Thankfully over the past few years, SEGA and Sonic Team HAVE been looking at what fans want and have done great things. They brought fans to work on a full Sonic game, Sonic Mania, which became honestly, one of my favorite games of all time. Now, Forces on the other hand is another story. I've played the game ALOT since it's release, and I've gotta say I've become indifferent to it. Meaning, while I still somewhat enjoy it, I also find it boring. (but that's a whole other story) But when you look at the game, and see all it set out to be, darker story, character creation, Classic and Modern together,  classic call backs, it really did try to become one of the best Sonic games. What happened with the develpement and why it turned out so medicore is a mystery, but I really did see some WANT to make a good Sonic game. Now that's it's been out for a while, I think we can be sure they've seen the response. I'm hoping they reach out to fans like they did with Mania and create some sort of Sonic Utopia or Green Hill Paradise style game. I'm a little doubting on that because of how long it would take, but that'd be the best "reboot" of Modern Sonic. The most realistic approach I see them taking though, is perfecting the boost formula and finally taking 2D sections OUT of 3D games. The 2D has been heavily hated on and I think they are aware of that. And they've reused the boost so much now, I think the perfect thing and safest thing to do is to continue with it. While I enjoy the boost, I believe the Adventure style of gameplay is superior. I just don't know if they brought it back they'd do a good job. Maybe the next evolution of the boost would be a mix of adventure and boost. Idk. I just know that Sonic is at that point where I'm not worried about the franchise, I just don't know where it's going. Just because we don't hear alot about him doesn't mean that's bad. After Mario Odessey, do we hear alot about him? Or after Breath of the Wild, do we hear alot about Link? I think Sonic is in a good place right now. It would've been better if they had really perfected Forces and delayed it to make it better, but it is what it is. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I know it's not really worth arguing about difference in opinions, but I get the exact opposite impressions regarding the dialogue. I admit, the SA1 dialogue was the worst contender, but IMO starting with SA2, it became pretty fluid and smooth between the characters (there were exceptions in some scenes of course). Sonic 2006 was garbage again, Unleashed might have had the most polished dialogue, but starting with Colors, it all went downhill. There's nothing more awkward if you ask me than endlessly monologing to an inanimate robot MULTIPLE TIMES (Sonic Colors) or about some deep topic (friendship) monologue out of nowhere when you were all jokes and goofyness up until that point.

I was more parroting the general consensus rather the my own opinion there, so can't make hard statements about this.
I think the biggest issue with the early Adventure era dialogue is either from a technical perspective rather then a writing perspective (Sa1's clunky pauses and tonal changes between lines like the actors said each line in a vacuum, SA2's sound mixing problems)
That and some people hate the weird translation quirks like some Japanese phrases being left in SA2's dialogue, altough personally I think they kinda work.
As if it matters whether screaming during a karate kick or random sounds you make when petting a Chao is English.
And with the later Adventure era is more the focus on exposition and plot technical details rather then the cast's own quirky personalities. (Sonic 06 in particular is very dry. Other then Silver enjoying the past world and Sonic and Elise's occasonal romantic banter, it's mostly the cast explaning stuff. Especially Eggman.)


To Sonic Colors's defense for that specific scene, it was supposed to be a joke and Sonic is called out for his behavior.
I didn't find it particularly funny, but it's intentional, so yeah. Can't fault the scene on being unnatural if that's the point.
Other then that, the technical aspect of the dialogue is well done, and there's a larger focus on the characters personality (I could argue that their personalities are slightly off, but I have to admit at least there's a focus on character driven dialogue at all.)
So that's Color's strenght. But also weakness, as the game get's so wrapped up in making their characters look clever and witty that it's at the expense of the adventure itself.
Hence why my personal pick of "bad scene" for Sonic Colors is when Tails and Sonic start a comedy routine right as the themepark is starting to shake and collapse. Way to ruin the momentum and tension of the finale. A single quick joke would have sufficed.


And to Forces defense, that game was light on jokes and goofyness. And most of the jokes feel justified and to the point.
So I disagree that comedy and goofyness ruined the friendship speech.
I'd say the friendship angle is more ruined by the fact Modern Sonic makes no sense as friendship advocate.
He's so perfect and indestructable that any help his friends can provide feels meanignless.
Amplified by the fact that Sonic resolves the entire situation without a sweat as soon as he sleepwalks out of his prison cell, rendering everything the main cast did for 6 months meaningless. And his typical "Lone rider leaving toward the sunset" ending is hilariously out of place after he gave a giant speech about how they'll all work together and re-build the world together.


I suppose that just leaves Unleashed as the one with the better dialogue, being right in the middle between the Adventure and Colors era.
Altough with that game I have an issue that the plot momentum is completely dormant for most of the running time.
There's always something wrong, so pick your poison what's the most tolerable for you.