Happy 25th/Silver Anniversary to the Sonic SatAM!

[E-122-Psi]

26 minutes ago, Cuz said:

For all the critique of Sonic and Sally. I always liked that (at their best) it always read to me like they were 'meant' to challenge enough other as two characters on equal footing. They were both capable of giving eachother a hard time, I don't think it was all Sally ragging Sonic with the idiot-ball. To me it's a refreshing dynamic since it's rare that Sonic's paired with people that don't have to look up him to some degree. Not that I don't also enjoy that aspect about him, (that Sonic can be more of an ideal than a character at times), and that's not to say SatAM's Sonic couldn't be as inspiring as Game!Sonic either. To give some positive points to him: when Rotor feels like a sub par member of the team Sonic's there to talk him up in Sub Sonic, or how about in Warp Sonic where he altruistically splints the power stone in two for Griff. That a move right out of modern Sonic's playbook.

Happy birthday SatAM.

Season One Sonic was okay, since the cast got more even screen time so he had a good amount of foils to get his good and bad qualities out of (plus again, Sally was equal in that area then and made her own mistakes that Sonic played a role reversal against). There were odd moments I thought he was too abrasive (eg. earnestly refusing to save Antoine in Hooked on Sonics, or his possessiveness of Sally in Warp Sonic up until that aforementioned altruistic moment) but he did alright in that era, besides the obnoxious 90s slang DiC always used of course.

It was Season Two, where his two foils got limited to a more consistently positive Sally and Antoine (who was so hopeless that Sonic had naked hatred of by that point) that Sonic's impetuous arrogant side became dominant, and since the other Freedom Fighters and their own foibles got sidelined, the focus became more on him chaining off problems nearly every episode and thus never learning from his mistakes.

Maybe one or two times each in that season both Sonic's impulsiveness and Sally's meticulousness got them individually into trouble and they both learned they needed the other for balance, and then the other episodes focusing on the others' developing, or even just Antoine and Dulcy being involved in a way that wasn't just comic relief, that could have worked nicely and made the whole team feel more fleshed out as a unit. And we should have seriously gotten at least one proper Bunnie episode, she got a couple side plots at best.

[a knothole resident]

27 minutes ago, Cuz said:

For all the critique of Sonic and Sally. I always liked that (at their best) it always read to me like they were 'meant' to challenge enough other as two characters on equal footing. They were both capable of giving eachother a hard time, I don't think it was all Sally ragging Sonic with the idiot-ball. To me it's a refreshing dynamic since it's rare that Sonic's paired with people that don't have to look up him to some degree. Not that I don't also enjoy that aspect about him, (that Sonic can be more of an ideal than a character at times), and that's not to say SatAM's Sonic couldn't be as inspiring as Game!Sonic either. To give some positive points to him: when Rotor feels like a sub par member of the team Sonic's there to talk him up in Sub Sonic, or how about in Warp Sonic where he altruistically splints the power stone in two for Griff. That a move right out of modern Sonic's playbook.

Happy birthday SatAM.

I really wished they explored more of Sonic and Rotor.  I got this genuine sense of how close their friendship was from just that one episode cause it feels natural.  Two friends hanging out, talking shit, goofing around. 

[E-122-Psi]

I did like the friendly jock and nerd chemistry with Sonic and Rotor. It was also one element Sonic never had to be humbled about to appreciate first, he was bros with Rotor from the pilot episode in fact and knew his smarts were reliable. It was almost a predecessor to what later Sonic and Tails are.

I heard one of the creators wasn't big on Rotor however, so he got demoted in Season Two, and by that point Antoine took over all the dorky klutzy elements within the team so Rotor lost his adorkable nerd personality and became blander (and of course Sonic considered Ant the type of nerd that was worthy of ragging on).

[a knothole resident]

5 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I heard one of the creators wasn't big on Rotor however, so he got demoted in Season Two, and by that point Antoine took over all the dorky klutzy elements within the team so Rotor lost his adorkable nerd personality and became blander (and of course Sonic considered Ant the type of nerd that was worthy of ragging on).

Speaking of Antonie and Rotor, I guess we should address the elephant in the room.  Ro-Becca.  I love this show but...I hate that episode with a fiery passion.  Its beyond me why that needed to exist cause its 12 minutes of Antonie being annoying with some Fran Dresser sounding stalker bot.   

[Cuz]

44 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

It was Season Two, where his two foils got limited to a more consistently positive Sally and Antoine (who was so hopeless that he obsessively hated and bullied by that point) that Sonic's impetuous arrogant side became dominant, and since the other Freedom Fighters and their own foibles got sidelined, the focus became more on him chaining off plots and thus never learning from his mistakes.

 

33 minutes ago, a knothole resident said:

I really wished they explored more of Sonic and Rotor.  I got this genuine sense of how close their friendship was from just that one episode cause it feels natural.  Two friends hanging out, talking shit, goofing around. 

I very much agree. I wish anybody not named Antoine got more to do in the season two. One had a balance that the second lacks, between Ant and Dulcy. If I recall one of the producers or  executives thought that Ant was a riot and the writers tried to play up to him. A vast majority of my favorite episodes are rooted in that first season. I'd describe SatAM as over ambitious. It wants, and tries, to do more then it competently can and that's kind of endearing.

[E-122-Psi]

21 minutes ago, a knothole resident said:

Speaking of Antonie and Rotor, I guess we should address the elephant in the room.  Ro-Becca.  I love this show but...I hate that episode with a fiery passion.  Its beyond me why that needed to exist cause its 12 minutes of Antonie being annoying with some Fran Dresser sounding stalker bot.   

The shorts I heard were, again, mandated by executives.

A shame because a few slice of life stories focused on the Freedom Fighters' daily lives doesn't sound like a bad thing on paper. It could have been something like say the more laid back episodes of My Little Pony or the later Pokemon seasons, but the problem is all of them focus almost exclusively and one dimensionally on Antoine's slapstick.

I will say that, while SatAm had more complex storytelling than AoSth, the latter show had way better comedy writing (besides odd truly golden moments such as "Margarine!!!" of course).

12 minutes ago, Cuz said:

 

I very much agree. I wish anybody not named Antoine got more to do in the season two. One had a balance that the second lacks, between Ant and Dulcy. If I recall one of the producers or  executives thought that Ant was a riot and the writers tried to play up to him. A vast majority of my favorite episodes are rooted in that first season. I'd describe SatAM is over ambitious. It wants, and tries, to do more then it competently can and that's kind of endearing.

I think the trick was that Season One, while still having it's flaws, had a large team of writers working on different episodes, so they all took different approaches and selected different concepts and characters to focus on and in different lights. Season Two was mostly done by the same two writers who obviously had more limited amount of ideas, with a more consistent, but very narrowed down direction.

This tends to happen with a show that has only has one or two writers, you regularly see the same characters and ideas clicking for them, and being used in the same specific way, while with more writers you see different ideas and perspectives, even if they aren't always consistently merged with each other (eg. the Disney Afternoon shows of the time, which often had way more explorative use of their cast and mythos, if at the cost of more erratic and episodic storytelling).

[a knothole resident]

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

A shame because a few slice of life stories focused on the Freedom Fighters' daily lives doesn't sound like a bad thing on paper. It could have been something like say the more laid back episodes of My Little Pony or the later Pokemon seasons, but the problem is all of them focus almost exclusively and one dimensionally on Antoine's slapstick.

It seemed like a squandered opportunity cause they couldve done episodes centered on other characters aside from Antonie.  He got WAYYY too much screen time.  Can you imagine a solo story on Bunnie or Sally?  Learning more about their hobbies, interests, and personal goals?

[E-122-Psi]

I admit to wondering in universe why the hell they kept inducting Antoine into missions over Bunnie or Dulcy. In Season One he was less in your face stupid and Sally tended to only bring him in when she was desperate for numbers or in a childish mood where she wanted to spite Sonic, so it made a little sense.

In Season Two however Sally was supposed to be a good decision maker and the only other character who did anything was Sonic who hated Antoine, and yet there he is tagging with them EVERY SINGLE EPISODE.

[Cuz]

31 minutes ago, a knothole resident said:

It seemed like a squandered opportunity cause they couldve done episodes centered on other characters aside from Antonie.  He got WAYYY too much screen time.  Can you imagine a solo story on Bunnie or Sally?  Learning more about their hobbies, interests, and personal goals?

 

On the bright side Ghost Busted at least pulled double duty by bringing Tails along and giving him some much needed development.

33 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I admit to wondering in universe why the hell they kept inducting Antoine into missions over Bunnie or Dulcy. In Season One he was less in your face stupid and Sally tended to only bring him in when she was desperate for numbers or in a childish mood where she wanted to spite Sonic, so it made a little sense.

 

Seriously though, Bunnie's the team's muscle and she has nothing to do in nearly the whole series! Even season one barely centered anything around her. Rotor's got the pilot, Sub, Harmonic, and various odds and ends in season 2.  Bunnie's relegated to the corners of other people's episodes.

[E-122-Psi]

How sidelined Bunnie was always felt odd, especially given she had such an intriguing premise and was actually one of the ideas they had from very early points of conception, and yet, even with the earlier larger team of writers, few knew how to make her centre fold for a story. I mean she wasn't flat per se in the show (I liked the extra little quirks she had in the show like her occasional grouchiness or flirty disposition) but they didn't seem to know how to develop on that much.

I mean Rotor being demoted had an excuse since they flat out stated one of the creative team didn't like him, but Bunnie? Nothing was mentioned at all. I guess with Sonic and Sally being the brawn/brains function, she was just kinda a third wheel as a second powerhouse.

I think she was again, one of the ideas they had a cool premise for but didn't know how to develop the main substance for, hence her eventually being scuttled aside. Even in the comics she's arguably the least spotlighted of the original Freedom Fighters.

[Pengi]

12 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Kind of sad I guess that, with the death of the Archie comics and IDW starting anew, everything from the show is dead in any official capacity now. 

Didn't Sonic's love of chilli dogs originate with this show?

[E-122-Psi]

1 minute ago, Pengi said:

Didn't Sonic's love of chilli dogs originate with this show?

That or AoSth. It did seem to be DiC thing either way.

[a knothole resident]

14 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Kind of sad I guess that, with the death of the Archie comics and IDW starting anew, everything from the show is dead in any official capacity now.

So now that Archie has concluded, does that mean the lore is no longer canon?  Sonic's parents?  If so, thats depressing cause 25 years of development being rendered meaningless seems kinda harsh. 

[Blue Blood]

2 hours ago, a knothole resident said:

So now that Archie has concluded, does that mean the lore is no longer canon?  Sonic's parents?  If so, thats depressing cause 25 years of development being rendered meaningless seems kinda harsh. 

What are you on about? It was only ever canon to itself. And it still is. But it's dead in any official capacity and won't be continued. The Archie/SatAM canon is self-contained and has nothing to do with the games (Spinball cameos notwithstanding), IDW comics or any other sub-series. 

I never liked it personally and always felt that it was very different to what Sonic was supposed to be. SatAM was more strangely dark dystopian than the games ever were, even back in the early days when the world wasn't as well established. Robotnik was the worst offender, being a totally different character. SEGA America took a lot of liberties when it came to localising the series, and Dic took even more liberties on top. SatAM (along with AoSTH and Underground) were only Sonic with very broad strokes. 

[SaturnWolf]

I was, am and will always be a fan of SatAM and it remains quite possibly my favorite cartoon of all time. It's just a shame it never did get a proper ending, especially with the death of the Archie comics.

[a knothole resident]

2 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

It was only ever canon to itself. And it still is. But it's dead in any official capacity and won't be continued.

So the only way the lore can somehow be revived, is if IDW make sa reference to something Archie related.  And yeah, I know that's impossible due to mandates and Sega distancing themselves from it, but a nice little nod would at least put older fans at ease. 

I remember reading these comics in jr high, high school, college, at the workplace.  Just all that mythos and world building that Ive been so immersed in since a kid being Thanos-ed like that is again, just heartbreaking.  Its like, wow, I wasted 25 years following a story that went nowhere.  I dont know, maybe Im too passionate since Archie Comics was my continuation of SatAM after it was canned.   

[E-122-Psi]

I think in terms of premise, SatAm was one of the better attempt at being a 'dark' take on the franchise, since it still kept the basic fantasy elements of the series, just retooled. It was still cartoon animals fighting a evil doctor and his robotic empire. It was given one hell of a cerebus syndrome, but it felt like a more compatible story than the anime-ish takes of Sonic Adventure 2, Next Gen and ESPECIALLY ShTH, which almost felt like they'd plastered the Sonic cast onto a completely different 'gritty' gimmick as an afterthought (so much that X's premise borderline made fun of it...only to dabble in it for real themselves with the space horror arc). Hell when Archie rebooted into a more streamlined mix of SatAm's premise with the current games aesthetics, it was an impressive use of the franchise on paper at least.

For all my complaints, you could definitely tell what they were going for, all the atmosphere and themes stuck out in the writing and gave it some power, it's just the lack of good character driven storytelling that brought it down and robbed it of it's weight. I think Hurst and Jenson relied on those other writers of Season One to help give it a bit more substance, after that, no one, even the 20 year old comic, ever really quite gave the cast and concepts the same life again.

[Blue Blood]

2 hours ago, a knothole resident said:

So the only way the lore can somehow be revived, is if IDW make sa reference to something Archie related.  And yeah, I know that's impossible due to mandates and Sega distancing themselves from it, but a nice little nod would at least put older fans at ease. 

I remember reading these comics in jr high, high school, college, at the workplace.  Just all that mythos and world building that Ive been so immersed in since a kid being Thanos-ed like that is again, just heartbreaking.  Its like, wow, I wasted 25 years following a story that went nowhere.  I dont know, maybe Im too passionate since Archie Comics was my continuation of SatAM after it was canned.   

IDW making a reference to it won't suddenly revive it. It would be just that - a reference on a meta level. The whole point of the IDW series is that it's an entirely new take.

The Archie/SatAM continuity is over. It regrettably didn't tie up loose ends and ended in an unceremonious cancellation. Nothing is going to bring it back. If you want to be totally overly dramatic about it, then sure, you wasted 25 years. But you know that's not true. The story went places. It just didn't ends proteolytic.

[MadmanRB]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

. Robotnik was the worst offender, being a totally different character.

And this is a good thing

Face it Eggman is a joke, he could not even take over a postage stamp

And no Forces doesnt count as he didnt do it on his own and neither does Sonic adventure 2.

SatAM's Robotnik was a opportunist yes but still was able to do the damned job of taking things over.

Quote

I never liked it personally and always felt that it was very different to what Sonic was supposed to be.

Again this is a bad thing why?

Segasonic sucks

 

Its like you are saying you liked Star wars Episode I more than the empire strikes back

[E-122-Psi]

8 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

And this is a good thing

Face it Eggman is a joke, he could not even take over a postage stamp

And no Forces doesnt count as he didnt do it on his own and neither does Sonic adventure 2.

SatAM's Robotnik was a opportunist yes but still was able to do the damned job of taking things over.

Well in fairness good villain =/= competent serious villain.

Many bumbling villains work because they are still entertaining and often still work as foils for the hero in spite of not being much of a threat, hence AoSth Robotnik and Boom Eggman having their fans.

I'm mixed about SatAm Robotnik since again, he had the sinister ambience and premise, but his character couldn't quite add up to it. Too many episodes relied on either him or one of the heroes pulling a REALLY stupid idiot ball to flow the plot forward (hell his backstory relied on Uncle Chuck and the King being extremely gullible and careless with their city's artillery), which left me wondering how he kept control for so long. He was utterly ruthless and evil, but to a fault, almost Captain Planet level 'kill the world for evil's sake' and also just as arrogant and overconfident in action as any of the more buffoonish Eggman counterparts.

It was still kinda suspension of disbelief that made his character powerful, just as Forces proved games Eggman could take over the world if the writers suddenly decided he could, otherwise he had the chilling atmosphere (and it was interesting hearing Jim Cummings in a more sinister role than his usual), but I think Underground Robotnik was his concept handled with better substance.

[MadmanRB]

11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

He was utterly ruthless and evil, but to a fault

Perhaps but again its like saying you prefer Mister Mxyzptlk over Lex Luthor, or Jar Jar Binks over Darth Vader.

 

Granted yes the writing in SatAM wasnt always perfect but at least ol Dr. R actually accomplished his mission faults and all.

I prefer that to Eggbrain who I am surprised knows how to breathe.

[E-122-Psi]

27 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Perhaps but again its like saying you prefer Mister Mxyzptlk over Lex Luthor, or Jar Jar Binks over Darth Vader.

 

Granted yes the writing in SatAM wasnt always perfect but at least ol Dr. R actually accomplished his mission faults and all.

I prefer that to Eggbrain who I am surprised knows how to breathe.

Jar Jar's not a villain though......probably.......

It depends because there are other ways for a villain to have a good dynamic against the hero than just being competent and threatening and a big ball of evil to counter their good.

I think Boom Eggman actually did a better more developed job of the whole 'exploiting the heroes' shortcomings' shtick than any version of the doctor for example, just it was in a more comical setup, but Boom was about comedy so a serious villain wouldn't work there anyway.

[MadmanRB]

8 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think Boom Eggman actually did a better more developed job of the whole 'exploiting the heroes' shortcomings' shtick than any version of the doctor for example, just it was in a more comical setup, but Boom was about comedy so a serious villain wouldn't work there anyway.

Yeah one of the better aspects of Boom there too, if you combine this with the threatening presence and cunning that the SatAM version had you would have a villain more than a match for sonic.

 

Too bad that will never happen in the main series as Sega would rather have bozo the clown than the joker.

[E-122-Psi]

13 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah one of the better aspects of Boom there too, if you combine this with the threatening presence and cunning that the SatAM version had you would have a villain more than a match for sonic.

 

Too bad that will never happen in the main series.

SatAm Robotnik exploited Sonic's recklessness, but that was it. It almost became a running gag like games Eggman with Knuckles' gullibility.

An episode Robotnik competed with Rotor's tech or countered his attempts to use his own machinery against him, or was savvy to Sally's strategy heavy, 'play it safe' approach would have been an interesting way to play on their characters. Hell even just bringing in a damn magnet against Bunnie, or sticking a banana peel for Ant or Dulcy to trip over.

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

And this is a good thing

Face it Eggman is a joke, he could not even take over a postage stamp

And no Forces doesnt count as he didnt do it on his own and neither does Sonic adventure 2.

SatAM's Robotnik was a opportunist yes but still was able to do the damned job of taking things over.

Again this is a bad thing why?

Segasonic sucks

Its like you are saying you liked Star wars Episode I more than the empire strikes back

This is hilarious. Opinions seem to really offend you.

Chill.

SatAM isn't objectively better or worse than SEGA Sonic in any way. It's different. Objectively it's a different story in a different world using vaguely the dame characters and premise. I don't like the SatAM approach.

I don't know where the fuck that Star Wars comment came from (and don't care either).