Happy 25th/Silver Anniversary to the Sonic SatAM!

[RedFox99]

1 hour ago, MadmanRB said:

And this is a good thing

Face it Eggman is a joke, he could not even take over a postage stamp

And no Forces doesnt count as he didnt do it on his own and neither does Sonic adventure 2.

SatAM's Robotnik was a opportunist yes but still was able to do the damned job of taking things over.

Again this is a bad thing why?

Segasonic sucks

 

Its like you are saying you liked Star wars Episode I more than the empire strikes back

Robotnik only took over because he stole the designs of someone else and the heroes were often seen as making simple mistakes (let's be honest, King Acorn should've been very suspicious).

At least Eggman builds his own devices and thought up the designs.

[MadmanRB]

8 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

This is hilarious. Opinions seem to really offend you.

No I am just being a bit sardonic

Quote

At least Eggman builds his own devices and thought up the designs.

Perhaps but he is still a failure

Doesnt matter if he can build his own things if he still cant have an edge over Sonic.

 

Thus is the big issue with segasonic , Sonic is way overpowered compared to his main villain, this is why we need junk villains like Infinite or the deadly six to make up for the deficit.

[Cuz]

11 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

An episode Robotnik competed with Rotor's tech or countered his attempts to use his own machinery against him, or was savvy to Sally's strategy heavy, 'play it safe' approach would have been an interesting way to play on their characters. Hell even just bringing in a damn magnet against Bunnie, or sticking a banana peel for Ant or Dulcy to trip over.

Season 1 again but hover boots & "A nice dream, but dream's were meant to be.... broken". Still few and far between.  xD

I'm also very curious about that "little freedom fighter uprising in the northern frontier" Julian felt the need to personally stomp out in an afternoon.

[E-122-Psi]

22 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Season 1 again but hover boots & "A nice dream, but dream's were meant to be.... broken". Still few and far between.  xD

I'm also very curious about that "little freedom fighter uprising in the northern frontier" Julian felt the need to personally stomp out in an afternoon.

In fairness that was against Antoine, with a very badly thought out plan. Besides Snively far more effectively pinpointed Antoine's REAL weakness most mercilessly.

29 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Thus is the big issue with segasonic , Sonic is way overpowered compared to his main villain, this is why we need junk villains like Infinite or the deadly six to make up for the deficit.

Can't the same be said for SatAm Sonic? Most of the reasons he fought Robotnik directly he humiliated him just as bad, and it felt like Dulcy was sidelined so often because she had too many powers Robotnik could never counter. I still question why in neither Game Guy or Sonic Conversation they bothered to capture Robotnik despite completely neutralising him.

SWATBots were also essentially stormtroopers no better than standard grunt badniks, while Eggman at least has odd elite robots like Gamma or Metal Sonic that have given Sonic a hard time.

Robotnik's main trick was that most of his artillery was made out of loved ones Sonic couldn't fight at full power. The one time games Sonic was approached with this it was obvious he was equally screwed until the victim found a way to reverse it themselves.

[MadmanRB]

14 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 Can't the same be said for SatAm Sonic?

Only partly as the SatAM Sonic's still had the main weakness being overconfident and being Reckless so I actually think they were pretty even despite some writing issues. The only time Sonic was overpowered was when he had a power ring but even that had a limitation. I mean sure yes Sonic was fast and was still a little bit powerful for robotnik's forces but a little bit of tactics could have tipped the balance in robotnik's favor. Sadly it was sort of a requirement for the good guys to win in every episode of cartoons back then so the true potential of that version of Robotnik sadly was wasted as with the right writing Robotnik could have achieved victory at any point

[E-122-Psi]

15 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Only partly as the SatAM Sonic's still had the main weakness being overconfident and being Reckless so I actually think they were pretty even despite some writing issues. The only time Sonic was overpowered was when he had a power ring but even that had a limitation

Except games Sonic is reckless as well (see Lost Worlds), and has been overpowered or defeated several times, just he's not the only target of such moments of weakness. The Emeralds are equivalent to the Power Rings, but I'd say even without either both versions of Sonic very often strolled through a lot of what the bad guys dished out.

Sonic in nearly all interpretations is a showy invincible hero. He gets odd challenges but even then it's in his character to brush it off like it was nothing. SatAm suffers fallibility from not getting full wins and losing comrades but the same can be said for games Sonic (there was a point where a character died nearly every game or some significant location got flooded or blown to smithereens).

Now the supporting cast may be another issue, another challenge SatAm Sonic had was that few of his active comrades were powerful so he had to bodyguard or rescue them as well, while most of the games cast are more on his league (though again this is partially down to plot convenience, Bunnie and Dulcy could take care of themselves and were arguably hindered by less flaws than Sonic, they just weren't used much because the plot would end too quickly).

That is the main reason Sonic is the underdog in SatAm and Robotnik is remotely in control; because the plot says so.

[MadmanRB]

9 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 That is the main reason Sonic is the underdog in SatAm and Robotnik is remotely in control; because the plot says so.

But again this is not entirely a bad thing because with some tweaks things could have gone different especially in episodes such as Sonic conversion or doomsday project

[E-122-Psi]

Again SatAm had a cool premise and atmosphere and you could still see what they were going for with it throughout the series, it's just the lack of developed character agency and development that brought down it's substance. It's a recurring cartoon flaw that's hard to belittle SatAm specifically for, especially for when it was made, (and what animation company made it) but it did bring down the story a lot and make it look a bit pretentious, especially with the insistence the creator had on it not being treated as a simple but fun Saturday Morning cartoon and more like some neatly woven 'blockbuster epic' (he used that exact term).

[MadmanRB]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

especially with the insistence the creator had on it not being treated as a simple but fun Saturday Morning cartoon and more like some neatly woven 'blockbuster epic' (he used that exact term).

Again this isn't a bad thing as if the series was made a little bit later say another decade or so it could have been like avatar The Last Airbender.

Or with better focus could have been like Batman the Animated Series

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Again this isn't a bad thing as if the series was made a little bit later say another decade or so it could have been like avatar The Last Airbender.

Or with better focus could have been like Batman the Animated Series

Not with the same creative team. If their approach is flawed or limited it's gonna be so no matter what era unless some epiphany occurs where they seriously up their game.

The concept notes for Season Three sound like Hurst still had the same 'big atmospheric premise - ???? - profit' approach as before, especially with NICOLE's backstory, which he went into very unsettling detail with the dark imagery but hadn't even thought how it would plot out besides a very brief note of 'Robotnik would lose NICOLE somehow'. Hurst and Jenson were good at designing good premises and concepts, but I think they needed some other writers to drive the characters.

[MadmanRB]

Yeah but sometimes all you need is Premace to get things started and yes getting more writers could have worked if the time was right

[a knothole resident]

7 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

IDW making a reference to it won't suddenly revive it. It would be just that - a reference on a meta level. The whole point of the IDW series is that it's an entirely new take.

The Archie/SatAM continuity is over. It regrettably didn't tie up loose ends and ended in an unceremonious cancellation. Nothing is going to bring it back. If you want to be totally overly dramatic about it, then sure, you wasted 25 years. But you know that's not true. The story went places. It just didn't ends proteolytic.

I guess that applies to Sonic the Comic/Fleetway. 

[Blue Blood]

7 minutes ago, a knothole resident said:

I guess that applies to Sonic the Comic/Fleetway. 

And literally any other series in any other medium that ends. 

[SBR2]

9 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

And this is a good thing

Face it Eggman is a joke, he could not even take over a postage stamp

And no Forces doesnt count as he didnt do it on his own and neither does Sonic adventure 2.

So the way to fix that is to strip away any bit of fun or joy he had and make it to where having a scary voice is the only personality he has?

[RedFox99]

19 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

So the way to fix that is to strip away any bit of fun or joy he had and make it to where having a scary voice is the only personality he has?

And keep in mind that Robotnik became a coward when Naugus came back temporarily. 

[MadmanRB]

25 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

So the way to fix that is to strip away any bit of fun or joy he had and make it to where having a scary voice is the only personality he has?

no but at least give him a brain already.

Eggman is a joke villain so no wonder why we have to have other villains in the series such as Infinite, the deadly 6, Dark Gaia, Solaris and other crap villains.

Hell you can trace this back to Shadow and Chaos.

[Blue Blood]

1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

no but at least give him a brain already.

Eggman is a joke villain so no wonder why we have to have other villains in the series such as Infinite, the deadly 6, Dark Gaia, Solaris and other crap villains.

Hell you can trace this back to Shadow and Chaos.

Eggman is a villain in love with his own image, who creates an army of goofy robot animals so that he can create a theme park based around around himself.

Too right he's a joke villain. Eggman is a goofball. That's what makes him who he is. You don't have to like it. But SatAM Robotnik is a fundamentally different kind of villain for a very different effect. 

[E-122-Psi]

30 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

And keep in mind that Robotnik became a coward when Naugus came back temporarily. 

Yeah, and would have been reduced to his lackey had Season Three been made. He was not immune to the patsy role Eggman has.

Also as people have stated good villain =/= scary competent villain. The primary requirements of a villain are to cause a problem for the hero and have some sort of antagonistic chemistry with them, and there are as many bumbling villains that do that perfectly as there are serious threatening ones.

Keep in mind also that while SatAm Robotnik had chilling personality and aesthetics, it wasn't exclusive to creating the dynamics of SatAm. Jim Cummings used the EXACT SAME CHARACTER in an episode of Winnie the Pooh, for a villain that wants to make under Christopher Robin's bed dirty:

 

[MadmanRB]

8 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Eggman is a villain in love with his own image, who creates an army of goofy robot animals so that he can create a theme park based around around himself.

Too right he's a joke villain. Eggman is a goofball. That's what makes him who he is. You don't have to like it. But SatAM Robotnik is a fundamentally different kind of villain for a very different effect. 

 

Again its like comparing Jar Jar to Darth Vader.

And yes you can create great goofball villains but sadly "Eggman" is not one of them

Kefka? Yes

The joker? Yes

Discord, Hades and Oogie Boogie? Yes

But Eggman?

Nope

[Adamis]

I don't know, man. Eggman went to break the planet in half twice, once to, at least, build a theme park in his own image. He chained planets. He built Death Eggs. He built a Death Egg around a whole planet.

Julian stole a machine and roboticized people while, mostly, sitting in his chair and he took over a kingdom.

Both are villains of different types. One is sinister, the other is a lunatic goofball who can do very dangerous things on a whim. They're both scary.

[SBR2]

1 hour ago, Adamis said:

I don't know, man. Eggman went to break the planet in half twice, once to, at least, build a theme park in his own image. He chained planets. He built Death Eggs. He built a Death Egg around a whole planet.

Julian stole a machine and roboticized people while, mostly, sitting in his chair and he took over a kingdom.

Both are villains of different types. One is sinister, the other is a lunatic goofball who can do very dangerous things on a whim. They're both scary.

I've been arguing this point for years. But apparently these examples don't matter because characters are chill about it or some such silliness.

[E-122-Psi]

I will agree that Eggman risked becoming an artefact for a while in the games, but that was a time nearly everything of the classic era was slowly playing second fiddle to big new overhauls with new characters and pretentious plot lines that had nothing to do with the classic mythos, even Sonic struggled to keep relevance in some of them. Also remember that Eggman's tenure has been MUCH longer than Julian's, who even in the comics technically only lasted around 50 issues.

SatAm was fortunate enough to end just as the main 'Sonic vs Robotnik' rivalry had been played out, with Season Three sounding a lot like it would have put other original characters into the centre fold for a while at least, what with Snively and Naugus trading main villain role and the latter applying more personal stakes for Sally due to her father than Sonic. The comics did the same thing ten fold only with some of their own original concepts.

I know Hurst suggested Knuckles might appear, but the context of that quote sounded a lot like a 'Sure, maybe, whatever' type answer. Even if they did use Knuckles, it doesn't sound like he was the creative team's primary focus in the least.

[a knothole resident]

15 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I know Hurst suggested Knuckles might appear, but the context of that quote sounded a lot like a 'Sure, maybe, whatever' type answer. Even if they did use Knuckles, it doesn't sound like he was the creative team's primary focus in the least.

Knuckles was a relatively new character at the time and nobody knew if he had staying power after just debuting in Sonic 3 & Knuckles.  To be fair, he made up for it by having him in Sonic Underground for a couple episodes.  Its not much, but he did deliver on his promise in that manner =P   

[Cuz]

Eh, I don't know where the idea that Knuckles wouldn't last as a character comes from, but otherwise yeah whether SatAM would of gotten around to implementing him probably comes down to timing. Scripts, and animation takes time. Gears already in motion and what not.

On 9/19/2018 at 8:05 AM, E-122-Psi said:

In fairness that was against Antoine, with a very badly thought out plan. Besides Snively far more effectively pinpointed Antoine's REAL weakness most mercilessly.

Hey now, if Team Rocket has taught me anything it's takes skill to score with a pitfall trap! You can't tell me he should of accounted for the possibility that Robotnik.... SatAM Robotnik, could fly.

 

[E-122-Psi]

10 hours ago, Cuz said:

Hey now if. Team Rocket has taught me anything it's takes skill to score with a pitfall trap! You can't tell me he should of accounted for the possibility that Robotnik.... SatAM Robotnik, could fly.

 

In fairness Team Rocket are so pitiful and forgettable to the point the protagonists have zero object permanence about them, so they always fall for the same really basic traps (except that ONE time Misty remembered but they put a second pitfall trap in anticipation of it). 

I'm still wondering how Antoine expected to lift Robotnik out of the trap.