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How has Sonic Forces affected your opinion of Sonic Team?


ShadowSJG
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Sonic 2006 butchered Blaze

Sonic Rivals butchered Eggman Nega

Sonic Unleashed butchered the previous worldbuilding and butchered Tails's development way before Forces

Sonic Generations butchered Classic's personality

Sonic Lost World had shitty graphics, shitty villains, shitty Tails.

Sonic Forces butchered the entire fucking continuity by separating young and old Sonic. And featured the worst written villain ever.

 

Why are we even staying in this fandom????? Ah yes, there is this great fan community, the IDW Sonic comics, Sonic Mania.

It's Ian Flynn, ABT, Yardley, Stanley, Whitehead, Hesse's works that keeps me engaged!

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Nothing's changed, especially since it kinda hampered the goodwill Mania generated months before. I've lacked faith in them for over a decade, and the fact that they backpedaled to using the boost formula again after Lost World attempted a non race car controlling Sonic, was disappointing. I stick around in hopes that my biggest childhood hero would be great again, rather than a laughingstock of the videogame industry. Things like Mania/Adventures are what give me the slightest hope that the series can achieve that in time, but it seems that since alot of older programmers/designers that we loved from back in the day aren't around anymore, Sonic Team should be more open to bringing people who are actually passionate about making a good 3D Sonic title.

 

As much as I loved the fangame Utopia, the more I think of it, proof of concepts are not enough to show you are capable of handling an official project, especially if they happen to fall under the same fate as millions of other fangamesbeing unfinished and abandoned.

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24 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Sonic Rivals butchered Eggman Nega

Sonic Unleashed butchered the previous worldbuilding

what are you even talking about

ignore, old post got deleted so I thought no one saw it

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Eggman Nega is supposed to be from Blaze's world.

And this is "butchering his character?" He's still basically "Eggman but more eviler". And it's not that hard to reconcile both backstories. And such a trivial detail doesn't make the entire game awful.

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Sonic Unleashed featured 0 locations from the previous games

Why did it need to? The game was specifically designed around a world tour theme and took influence from real world settings and cultures, but it doesn't have Angel Island so it's bad...?

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and didnt have Knuckles (despite the master emerlad's importance to control the 7 chaos emeralds)

He's irrelevant to the main story, which is about Sonic and Chip

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To be polite, very negatively. I'll go so far as to say I think Forces is an incredibly lazy game. 2/3 of it is just a significantly worse, significantly shorter version of Generations, a game with exactly one mainline Sonic game (made by Sonic Team mind you) between them. Sonic Forces by every measure should've been a slam dunk. They had an amazing game practically pre-made, gift wrapped and handed to them and they still managed to screw it up.

They had 4 years to work on this and they still managed to make some of the absolute worst decisions imaginable with it. It's not like an '06 situation where they had half of their resources ripped away and a deadline that was less than a year away, they had a lot of time for it.

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11 minutes ago, Ivo the Coldsteel said:

Why did it need to? The game was specifically designed around a world tour theme and took influence from real world settings and cultures, but it doesn't have Angel Island so it's bad...?

he's irrelevant to the main story, which is about Sonic and Chip

Fair points.

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After forces I think Sonic team needs to be disbanded and replaced

Sonic team would not know how to make a good game these days if it jumped up their ass.

Not to mention the sad pathetic shell of a company that is Sega.

Sonic team has screwed up too many times, its time to let something else take things over.

Let the mania crew take things over because at least they know what a good game looks like, not some boost formula shitfest with a crap storyline.

I refuse to give sonic team leeway, I wash my hands with the lot of them.
Same goes to sega

You will see no words of kindness from me, Sega and Sonic team have earned my scorn
Hell the only reason sega is still around is for nostalgia nothing more, they would be dead without it.

I honestly wish people would stop defending them, they have ruined Sonic for many and its only Mania that is at least keeping people invested.

Leave the franchise in good hands like Whitehead and the like, sure mania has its flaws but its still a better game than Forces by a long mile because at least its a challenge as opposed to hitting the boost button and finishing the game in under two hours.

It would be something if forces was just a fluke but the franchise has had more downs then ups over the last 12 years or even longer if you want me to mention the utter shite that is Shadow the hedgehog (game).

From the disaster that was 06, to the unoriginal wii exclusive storybook games, to werewolf sonic, to Sonic 4 and free riders, to maybe some hope with Colors and Generations only to be put down again by the mediocre lost world and the very lazily designed Forces

Kindness left the building long ago for me and Forces broke the camels back.

If you want to know the real reasons why people like me want Sonic team to stop making games it doesn't take long to see all the bad and or mixed reviews the games have had within at least the last 12 years.

The thing is that Sonics teams reputation has been tarnished, and sometimes the best thing to do is have a fresh take on things.
Its the reputation of Sonic team is why i think its best they be either disbanded or reformulated or whatever you prefer.
perhaps rebranded as something else with a new focus and a new mission but the team itself is certainly not on my nice list.
They have a lot to prove now, next game has to be good.
As for lizuka i think he honestly is bad for Sonic as it is he who has all the mandates that have had the worst influence.
Sega itself deserves a lot of the blame too, they really have had such a uneven track record as well.
Look I understand people think of Sonic team as something that is free from criticism or harsh comments but truth is they are a company within a company.
And when they mess up they must be held accountable like EA, Activision, WB or Ubisoft.
Even if you liked Forces, lost world or any other harshly criticized Sonic game people are not complaining because they like to complain.
Especially when the negative feedback has its basis in reality.
Forces really has an issue with its overuse of the boost formula and lazy mechanics.
Lost world was the opposite by practically putting bricks in Sonics shoes by not allowing people to run without a separate run button.
Then you had the bad physics of Sonic 4
Colors stuck on the Wii
Free Riders having awful controls
The utterly silly night levels of Unleashed
two more Nintendo exclusives
And the game that almost killed the franchise.

Only two games for me stood out really as of late, Generations and Mania.
Now yes both didnt feature any real original levels (mania had a few though) but the reason why both were hailed as both had great mechanics and near flawless gameplay.
Mania especially, sure yes it relies a lot on nostalgia but as a celebration of Sonics 25th that is acceptable.
And Mania does feel like a legitimate love letter to the classic games as opposed to something that was corporately controlled (something that generations suffers from sadly).
The only reason why forces isnt as praised is that its mechanics are all off thanks to sega rushing a new engine and production into things, if sega would have held off for another year than perhaps forces could have been something.
I can feel the love and dedication in mania while in forces its just forced and uninspired.

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Hasn't changed my opinion in the slightest. In fact in retrospect forces is fairly consistent from a decision-making standpoint from we've come to expect from that director. A lot of the same decisions and directions went into the last game he was in charge of colors.

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Well, that's a presumptuous OP. I for one think Forces is decent, not mediocre.

As for the point, well, I know I have the reputation of being the Sonic Team defender here, and I do believe that people often exaggerate, assume the worst, blame the wrong people, etc. in regards to them. But my personal view? There is no Sonic Team. At least not outside of branding.

Look at the credits of all the games in the past 10 years. Even the Boost trilogy has a ton of variation in terms of who's doing what and that was about as close as consistent in terms of staffing that post-2008 Sonic games have gotten so far. Most of the people behind Generations did not have input into Forces beyond falling under the same brand; neither, for that matter, did most of the people behind Lost World have input into Forces either.

Really, its a classic case of Theseus's ship. If you replace all the parts in Theseus's ship with modern materials, is it still Theseus's ship afterwards? And well, the answer in my opinion is that its little more than a recreation of Theseus's ship-- for these new parts were implemented after Theseus departed and certainly were not present for the ventures that made the ship a legend to begin with. I do not expect these parts to show the effects of experience and use from any time before the moment the parts' installation were complete.

And that's about my expectations for Sonic Team. It lacks consistent staffing, and because staffing is key to defining what a team does and is, Sonic Team is not anything beyond branding. Really, people say "They had 10 years to figure this out!" like its the same people working at Sonic Team consistently since 2008 when its not the case-- had Forces had the exact same staff work on it but listed the studio's name as "Nokonoko Team" instead of Sonic Team, a lot less people would be holding it up as the end all be all of what Sonic Team is and always will be capable of, even though utterly nothing in this hypothetical scenario has actually changed from the facts of now except for the name. (And well, I've gone over on several occasions why I think the ruined forever mindset is nonsense. So no need to go off on that tangent, I think.)

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3 minutes ago, Mad Convoy said:

Well, that's a presumptuous OP. I for one think Forces is decent, not mediocre.

As for the point, well, I know I have the reputation of being the Sonic Team defender here, and I do believe that people often exaggerate, assume the worst, blame the wrong people, etc. in regards to them. But my personal view? There is no Sonic Team. At least not outside of branding.

Look at the credits of all the games in the past 10 years. Even the Boost trilogy has a ton of variation in terms of who's doing what and that was about as close as consistent in terms of staffing that post-2008 Sonic games have gotten so far. Most of the people behind Generations did not have input into Forces beyond falling under the same brand; neither, for that matter, did most of the people behind Lost World have input into Forces either.

Really, its a classic case of Theseus's ship. If you replace all the parts in Theseus's ship with modern materials, is it still Theseus's ship afterwards? And well, the answer in my opinion is that its little more than a recreation of Theseus's ship-- for these new parts were implemented after Theseus departed and certainly were not present for the ventures that made the ship a legend to begin with. I do not expect these parts to show the effects of experience and use from any time before the moment the parts' installation were complete.

And that's about my expectations for Sonic Team. It lacks consistent staffing, and because staffing is key to defining what a team does and is, Sonic Team is not anything beyond branding. Really, people say "They had 10 years to figure this out!" like its the same people working at Sonic Team consistently since 2008 when its not the case-- had Forces had the exact same staff work on it but listed the studio's name as "Nokonoko Team" instead of Sonic Team, a lot less people would not be holding it up as the end all be all of what Sonic Team is and always will be capable of, even though utterly nothing in this hypothetical scenario has actually changed from the facts of now except for the name. (And well, I've gone over on several occasions why I think the ruined forever mindset is nonsense. So no need to go off on that tangent, I think.)

But Iizuka is still the leader, he should make the right decisions instead of shoving Classic in Forces

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55 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Forces only reaffirmed what I thought about Sonic Team. They don't know how to make a good Sonic game.

This. Most of the mistakes that Forces makes are the kind of mistakes Sonic Team has been making for a long time now. Forces is just more evidence on the pile for how incompetent Sonic Team is with this series.

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Just now, Marco9966 said:

But Iizuka is still the leader, he should make the right decisions instead of shoving Classic in Forces

Ah, but can you pinpoint him as one who acted alone on causing it?

Probably not. This is not to downplay the importance of the producer or the decisions they make-- Iizuka is culpable for Sonic Team's output as well. But its not on him alone to make decisions. At the barest minimum, somebody has to approve the decisions and somebody else has to implement the decisions. That's at least two other people responsible for shaping the game-- and well, Sonic Team isn't exactly an indie skeleton crew, so there's undoubtedly far, far more people assigned those tasks. And if those people keep changing? Well, that gives the producer a lot less time to get to know the staff. Its vital that producer(s) know their staff well to be able to guide future iterations to be better than the previous titles. Sonic Staff Shuffle, especially with totally new and inexperienced people thrown into the mix, can't be helping Iizuka with his job. It also doesn't totally absolve him of accountability for Sonic's issues of late, of course, but well, he's not the only person making decisions that'll affect the future of the franchise and so getting rid of him will not cure every issue.

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3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Imagine if Sonic Adventure 2 had Classic Sonic! Imagine if Sonic and the Black Knight had Classic Sonic!!

 

...they'd be way better?

Seriously. Sonic Adventure 2 gets by a lot on style but the story is astoundingly undercooked. I'd pay real money for Classic Sonic to cutesy goofball his way through a GUN base or something. I'd play that.

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Y'know, you could go even further than that?

One of SA2's biggest narrative flaws is that it presents this philosophical question about redemption that, at no point, Sonic ever really participates in. Ignoring that Shadow really doesn't make a decision either (he simply remembers what Maria ACTUALLY wanted), you could actually use Classic Sonic to help tighten the parallels between Sonic and Shadow. Imagine Classic Sonic stages showing you the halcyon days of simpler times, emotionally preparing you for the more ambiguous questions Sonic's now facing with Gerald's schemes and Shadow's declarations of humanity's sins.

It could even work both ways: Either it's Generations style time travel, so "Things were so much simpler back then" as Sonic ponders how to handle Shadow, OR it's Forces style alternate universes and there's a culture clash going on between Classic, maybe Sonic slowly learning to temper his own impulsive nature by confronting and controlling his simpler self.

Classic Sonic would've EASILY improved SA2. Shadow being so focused on the past, and a blurry, unsure past no less, gives you the perfect window for his inclusion.

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1 minute ago, Singapore Sling said:

Y'know, you could go even further than that?

One of SA2's biggest narrative flaws is that it presents this philosophical question about redemption that, at no point, Sonic ever really participates in. Ignoring that Shadow really doesn't make a decision either (he simply remembers what Maria ACTUALLY wanted), you could actually use Classic Sonic to help tighten the parallels between Sonic and Shadow. Imagine Classic Sonic stages showing you the halcyon days of simpler times, emotionally preparing you for the more ambiguous questions Sonic's now facing with Gerald's schemes and Shadow's declarations of humanity's sins.

It could even work both ways: Either it's Generations style time travel, so "Things were so much simpler back then" as Sonic ponders how to handle Shadow, OR it's Forces style alternate universes and there's a culture clash going on between Classic, maybe Sonic slowly learning to temper his own impulsive nature by confronting and controlling his simpler self.

Classic Sonic would've EASILY improved SA2.

Similar events happened once, in SA1, but with Tails, when he remembered his first meeting with Sonic, how Sonic inspired him, how he must stand on his own...

No need for classic Tails here don't you think?

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It's one of those topics again... Oh well, I'll add a little bit fuel.

I can't really have a changed opinion on the team that, outside of notable figures, consists of different people than the team from, say, Sonic Generations, or Unleashed, or the game before that. I can say if my opinion changed for daid notable figures (mostly talking about Iizuka and Kishimoto).

For Iizuka - not really. I always thought he wasn't great, but also wasn't that bad. Yeah, Forces is another fluke, but I wouldn't call him out for that, since he was barely involved with the product itself (or at least it looks like it).

Opinion on Morio Kishimoto changed for worse, which is quite a feat since I never liked the games under hia belt to begin with. Storybook games, while he wasn't the director, he still was responsible for gameplay choices, were poop. Colors was a fluke that got high praise only because it wasn't outright bad. Lost World sucked as well, but I thought at least they had something with the boost gameplay being back. Forces just made me reinforce an opinion that, while he's not the only problem in the team, he's one of the roots of the problem that should be removed as quickly as possible.  Sure, I myself know jack shit about game design, so I'm sure I know much less about it than Kishimoto, but as a consumer I hate his game design and direction choices. I feel like if someone more knowledgable was at the game design and/or direction helm, Sonic would be getting better games. 

So yeah, if the next mainline Sonic project is Kishimoto's work again, I'm automatically writing it off as "bad". It got that bad.

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3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Similar events happened once, in SA1, but with Tails, when he remembered his first meeting with Sonic, how Sonic inspired him, how he must stand on his own...

No need for classic Tails here don't you think?

That situation isn't even remotely the same. Tails's story is about becoming his own person and defining himself by being inspired by Sonic, but not defined BY Sonic.

The scenario I'm proposing is continuing Shadow's arc of contrasting the idyllic past with the more confusing, ambiguous future: if we have direct flashbacks to Shadow's past, what exactly is so off about using Classic Sonic for flashback levels? It certainly fits, and even further fits the nostalgic tone of Shadow's flashbacks (and hell, why not make a cute Classic Shadow for those flashbacks too, if only to emphasize his innocence in the face of tragedy).

Tails's story is about becoming his own man, which really has nothing in common with Shadow's story in SA2, which is about him staying true to how he is defined by the wishes from his best friend. They are, quite literally, the exact opposite story.

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2 minutes ago, Singapore Sling said:

That situation isn't even remotely the same. Tails's story is about becoming his own person and defining himself by being inspired by Sonic, but not defined BY Sonic.

The scenario I'm proposing is continuing Shadow's arc of contrasting the idyllic past with the more confusing, ambiguous future: if we have direct flashbacks to Shadow's past, what exactly is so off about using Classic Sonic for flashback levels? It certainly fits, and even further fits the nostalgic tone of Shadow's flashbacks (and hell, why not make a cute Classic Shadow for those flashbacks too, if only to emphasize his innocence in the face of tragedy).

Tails's story is about becoming his own man, which really has nothing in common with Shadow's story in SA2, which is about him staying true to how he is defined by the wishes from his best friend. They are, quite literally, the exact opposite story.

I'm in for flashbacks with Classic (like in Archie comics post-reboot), 100%

But not for Classic Sonic joining Modern Sonic's adventures and taking a playable player spot that could go to Shadow, Tails, or Knuckles.

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