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HOT TAKE: Should Sonic Team stop listening to the fans?

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I think they did listen, but in the wrong ways, like, they tried to please all kind of fans in the same game, and it doesn't work obviously. Also, they lack talent which makes Sonic fans all the more angry and aggressive. I do not respect this attitude from fans, but I don't want to defend Sonic Team either, in fact I dislike both sides.

Sonic fans still hate the developers in my opinion (because ST doesn't know how to please them), Mania worked because it was made by fans and FOR the fans, and they know exactly what fans want. So the only route would be hiring fans to make the games? I don't know, I doubt it, I'm sure it can please the classic crowd, but if they make a new Classic game or a new Mania (most likely yes), they really need to use some new mechanics to keep things fresh and interesting. We'll see.

I still think that SEGA should try a new studio, here's hoping that fans won't attack them and they let them develop the games in peace, for once...

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I don't know even that could work, Sonic has pretty diverse set of fans from all kinds of media including the comics, anime, music, books, etc. There is no pleasing everyone even they did create a new studio unless they have a core vision, it might go back to square one. 

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For me i say they should listen to the fans, at least where negative criticisms are concerned.

Segas and Sonic team clearly dont know how to make as game, let us teach them

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I don't really think listening to fans is going to help at all considering how they essentially did that with forces and not only were the concepts they introduced executed poorly but also because it reeked of "let's do this because we can but not push to far with it" with things like classic sonic and the big build up to shadow and chaos coming back as villains seemingly slapped into the game because it would guarantee them more sales even though neither felt like they belonged. I think the issue has more to do with whatever inner workings go on there and how they're managing their game creations because no matter how I look at it, no person could seriously look at their latest work and say "Yeah, this is the best we could've done" if they had enough time and resources to complete it. 

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4 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

For me i say they should listen to the fans, at least where negative criticisms are concerned.

Segas and Sonic team clearly dont know how to make as game, let us teach them

What makes the fans think they can even make a playable, fully developed 3D sonic game, much less tell sonic team how to make one? There have been basically zero legitimate fan contributions towards solving this problem (sonic utopia being the only interesting "concept" worth anything at all...evidenced by yuki naka's reaction to it)

3D sonic fans are so divided on what the game should be and often pay so little attention to game design details that propping them up as a possible game design committee is a joke in and of itself. They generally only know what THEY like specifically, and otherwise have no idea what they're talking about.... not what is feasible or how to effectively communicate these ideas into proper execution.

 

Christian Whitehead and company are fans of the sonic series but were also legitimate game designers in their own right with proven works. So Mania was not made by a bunch of rooks spewing nonsense out of their pie holes. Green hill paradise and the likes are not sonic games, they're tech demos which anyone can do and are not impressive or interesting in solving this 3D problem. It takes a lot of effort by a large team of devs to make these games. Sonic Team could use a shot of passion(more than anything, they need a strong vision!), but the entire process needs to be handled with competency and vision if it's to be solved. Even if it isnt sonic team that picks up the mantle in the future it should still be people that have legitimate game development experience, especially with the 3D games.

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When it comes to 3D Sonic, fans typically just have great ideas. Open levels, non linear level design, multiple characters which have Sonic's playstyle, accurate genesis physics etc. Problem is, that's just ideas. It's much harder to actually put that into practice. Sonic Utopia made progress with Sonic's movement and physics, although even that is flawed, but its level design is a mess. Of course, it's not supposed to be amazing, it's a tech demo, but the point still stands. 

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3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

What makes the fans think they can even make a playable, fully developed 3D sonic game, much less tell sonic team how to make one? There have been basically zero legitimate fan contributions towards solving this problem (sonic utopia being the only interesting "concept" worth anything at all...evidenced by yuki naka's reaction to it)

3D sonic fans are so divided on what the game should be and often pay so little attention to game design details that propping them up as a possible game design committee is a joke in and of itself. They generally only know what THEY like specifically, and otherwise have no idea what they're talking about.... not what is feasible or how to effectively communicate these ideas into proper execution.

 

Christian Whitehead and company are fans of the sonic series but were also legitimate game designers in their own right with proven works. So Mania was not made by a bunch of rooks spewing nonsense out of their pie holes. Green hill paradise and the likes are not sonic games, they're tech demos which anyone can do and are not impressive or interesting in solving this 3D problem. It takes a lot of effort by a large team of devs to make these games. Sonic Team could use a shot of passion(more than anything, they need a strong vision!), but the entire process needs to be handled with competency and vision if it's to be solved. Even if it isnt sonic team that picks up the mantle in the future it should still be people that have legitimate game development experience, especially with the 3D games.

 

Well what is your idea then, Sega just continue to make crap games where the only strategy to win is hit the boost button?

3D sonic games need to die anyhow it will be no big loss, let games like mania take over it will be for the best.

Me i am sick of segas and sonics teams incompetence, mania is such a breath of fresh air

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7 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

 

Well what is your idea then, Sega just continue to make crap games where the only strategy to win is hit the boost button?

3D sonic games need to die anyhow it will be no big loss, let games like mania take over it will be for the best.

Me i am sick of segas and sonics teams incompetence, mania is such a breath of fresh air

because releasing nothing but nostalgia-based 2d platformers worked so well for Mario

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14 minutes ago, Scape said:

because releasing nothing but good nostalgic 2D(okay maybe not New Super Mario Bros 2) and 3D games have worked so well, commercially and critically wise.

^^Fixed.

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1 hour ago, Ruomarta said:

^^Fixed.

Don't rewrite my posts. I know what I meant to say.

Mario's reliance on nostalgia only worked for so long until people got sick of it.  If Sonic keeps pretending the first-half of the 90s never ended, it'll flame out even worse.

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They need to know who to listen to,  because truthfully, some critique is just plain poison aiming to bend the company over to their will. 

And that poison nowadays have many types,  from Classic supremacists, Nintendo diehards,  and just plain douchebags.

 

They need to breathe in,  focus,  and filter out the gold from the mud. 

 

Inhale the good shit

Exhale the bullshit. 

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6 hours ago, Scape said:

Don't rewrite my posts. I know what I meant to say.

Mario's reliance on nostalgia only worked for so long until people got sick of it.  If Sonic keeps pretending the first-half of the 90s never ended, it'll flame out even worse.

Yeah this is hyperbole. 

As some have said, using the 2D formula or generally the classic aesthetic does not mean making the same exact game every time. Also, a game being in 2 dimensions does not limit the number of opportunities for new content, in any way. In general, regardless of the number of dimensions, having a consistent identity does not mean churning out the same product every time.

I've asked this before, but what convinces fans that most gamers want to play 3D games that have ideas scattered all over the place (and no quality control)? Some people are grossly unaware of the series history and how we got to where we are now, where both we the audience and SEGA have no idea where Sonic is going to go next. 

 

.

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3 hours ago, Wraith said:

I think the whole argument comes from an incorrect perspective re: 2D Mario. Those games are actually by far the best selling games in the series by a massive margin to the point where the so called ambitious 3D games started to take notes from them. They didn't actually flame out with anyone. They were an easy target due to am honestly pretty poor asthetic compared to other 2D platformers at the time, but that didn't really matter to the target audience of those games: less experienced players. 2D Mario mechanics are so polished, clearly communicated and accessible that it has an enormous appeal that other platforms don't. 

I don't think 2D Sonic has ever had the same type of appeal. I've noticed that the games have enough of a barrier of entry that it never catches on as easily. That, along with a lack of a decent drop in Co op mode will probably keep 2D Sonic in more of a niche unless they make some changes.

The "niche" itself is profitable enough and could probably give 3D Sonic in its current state a run for its money but I'm not sure how successful it is when you really get down to it. Like, I'm not sure if something like Sonic Mania would outsell another 3D game with a good press run like Unleashed or Generations. Whether that audience grows or not depends on how they carry themselves with 2D Sonic going forward. It's not a surefire bet either way since Sonic just isn't as clever about appealing to novices as Mario, but I think the potential is here to at least build a solid run of successful  games ala NSMB. 

 One thing that's clear is how the 2D side of things is more than worth investing into though so let's maybe...not sleep on those types of games anymore?

^^This. Scape you took my post the wrong way. You are only referring to yourself and some of the people on the internet, which is a VERY vocal minority compare to like the millions of casuals that mostly buy the 2D Mario games anyway. Heck, they still sell like hotcakes compared to their 3D counterparts(not that they don't sell at all, but you get the idea). Whereas with 2D and ESPECIALLY 3D Sonic games, I can't really say the same thing when talking about them commercially wise(or even critically wise in 3D Sonic's case). Like Scape, really ask yourself when was the last time a 3D sonic game had the same rounding success like Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, New Super Mario Bros(just the first one, not the second one), Super Mario Odyssey, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario 64, Super Mario 3D Land, or even to a lesser extend New Super Mario Bros Wii U, and Super Mario 3D World(remember, those two are the worst selling ones, selling only over five million copies in their lifetime).

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12 hours ago, Scape said:

because releasing nothing but nostalgia-based 2d platformers worked so well for Mario

One can do a lot of things in 2D platformers, just as much as one can do in a 3D game.

I mean just because a game is 3D doesnt mean its instantly better as even 3D games loose their charm after a while.

I mean look at Call of duty for petes sake, its been the same game for ages only now it has more graphics and more lootboxes now.

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5 hours ago, Wraith said:

I think the whole argument comes from an incorrect perspective re: 2D Mario. Those games are actually the best selling games in the series by a margin so big that the so called ambitious 3D games started to take notes from them. They didn't actually flame out with anyone. They were an easy target due to am honestly pretty poor asthetic compared to other 2D platformers at the time, but that didn't really matter to the target audience of those games: less experienced players. 2D Mario mechanics are so polished, clearly communicated and accessible that it has an enormous appeal that other platforms don't. 

I don't think 2D Sonic has ever had the same type of appeal. I've noticed that the games have enough of a barrier of entry that it never catches on as easily. That, along with a lack of a decent drop in Co op mode will probably keep 2D Sonic in more of a niche unless they make some changes.

The "niche" itself is profitable enough and could probably give 3D Sonic in its current state a run for its money but I'm not sure how successful it is when you really get down to it. Like, I'm not sure if something like Sonic Mania would outsell another 3D game with a good press run like Unleashed or Generations. Whether that audience grows or not depends on how they carry themselves with 2D Sonic going forward. It's not a surefire bet either way since Sonic just isn't as clever about appealing to novices as Mario, but I think the potential is here to at least build a solid run of successful  games ala NSMB. 

 One thing that's clear is how the 2D side of things is more than worth investing into though so let's maybe...not sleep on those types of games anymore?

If I inderstand correctly what are you suggesting is to cater to some casual fucks who can't push more than one button at once or toddlers? 

Wanna joke? It's basically Sonic Forces way - simplistic level design without all that "niche difficult hardcore details" where you can basically just push boost to the win. 

But hey, for some reason I don't hear that much praise for  this game - at one point I actually started to believe I'm the only one who somewhat enjoyed Forces, albeit I really didn't like its ridiculous shortness and simplicity. 

The only real step for Sonic into the coffin would be trying to be "friendly" with dirty casuls and marioboys, especially with latter. Sonic Colors was shit for me mostly for this particular reason. 

Point is: Sonic should practice and improve those things in which he has already been able to recommend himself well. And he should do it with the purpose to appease his true and loyal fans, not some outsiders with their gay-ass-NintendoSwitch and shroom-fuck-Mario. 

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Yeah but when you rite utter nonsense like this:

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

I don't think 2D Sonic has ever had the same type of appeal. I've noticed that the games have enough of a barrier of entry that it never catches on as easily. That, along with a lack of a decent drop in Co op mode will probably keep 2D Sonic in more of a niche unless they make some changes.

It really is a load of crap.

Especially since Mania is so popular.

You cant call it niche since Mania sold so well.

 

Heck want to know how "niche" mania is?

Steam sales suggest forces has had at least 100,000 sales

mania has 200,000 thats twice the sales.

 

That is no small number considering how many games are on steam.

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2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Yeah but when you rite utter nonsense like this:

It really is a load of crap.

Especially since Mania is so popular.

I'm a huge fan of the Classic style, but even I can get what he meant wasn't necessarily some brutal put-down of Classic gameplay. Mario is inherently more accessible than Sonic, because it's a lot simpler. That's not exactly a controversial observation, nor is it really something to take offence to. And I think there could be ways for Sonic to be made more accessible without butchering what makes it good - that shouldn't be controversial either. 

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Yeah but even if we are talking about "casual fans" the sales of Mania do not lie when concerning PC sales figures.

Sega doesnt want to admit they failed and claim to keep forces as top seller but the PC sales figures do not lie thanks to steam analytics.

And while Sonic forces may have had some success on consoles (mainly the PS4 and Xbox as the switch launch is considered a failure) the amount of steam sales should be a indicator of how well Mania has done.

And if you want "real" scores according to VGchartz forces has had a mere 0.63m figure on the switch

0.46m for the PS4

and 0.22m on the xbox

Now mania does seem to be lower in terms of figures:

0.15m for the switch

0.12m for PS4

and 0.05m for the xbox.

But i think VGcharts only accounts for physical sales due to how it seems to do its numbers, it makes no account for digital sales such as steam.

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Is this about me using the word "niche"? is that it? I said "more of a niche" for a reason. 

It's a niche in the comparative sense to the New Super Mario Bros games selling literal millions. It's relative. The game did fine, guys. Great for what it is, even. I didn't think I'd have to keep affirming that in this discussion since it's common knowledge, but Sonic fans are still insecure even when shit's fine, I guess.

 I'm just saying, as a person that prefers 2D Sonic over 2D Mario, that there are things 2D Mario is doing that are worth looking into if Sega want to make classic Sonic even more viable. 2D Mario is doing pretty exceptionally all things considered and it might be worth taking a look at it's staying power instead of turning your nose up at it. Part of that staying power is accessibility. Does accessibility have to kill depth? I don't think so. We can talk about that instead of this. 

Get the chip off your shoulders. Nobody's trying to prove Sonic invalid here. 

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Thing is you still implied Sonic as a failure and i remind you that Sonic saved the genesis from death and sega for that matter.

I mean Sonic 2 sure as heck was the Geneis killer app and it did save sega (for the most part) as without Sonic I dont think sega would still be around in any form.

It would probably went the way of Atari, some small company hanging by thread

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1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

Thing is you still implied Sonic as a failure and i remind you that Sonic saved the genesis from death and sega for that matter.

I mean Sonic 2 sure as heck was the Geneis killer app and it did save sega (for the most part) as qwithout Sonic I dont think sega would still be around in any form.

It would probably went the way of Atari

He implied Sonic is a failure if you read way too much into it and are extremely insecure about Sonic/Mario comparisons. 

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