HOT TAKE: Should Sonic Team stop listening to the fans?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

The whole point of Mania was for people who didn't like how Modern-ized Classic Sonic had become. Look at how Sonic Team has handled Classic Sonic for years now, it's a total and complete disaster.

I wouldn’t call what Sonic Teams did with Classic Sonic “modernizing” considering how faulty it turned out.

[Plasme]

I do think there is a threat that Mania could be mishandled going forward, relying on remixing old zones and playing upon nostalgia. I hope that doesn't happen, but it is possible SEGA could take it in that direction..

And as I've said previously, I think Plus was a step backwards so I think there's a real possibility for the franchise to be mishandled. I didn't think Encore Mode was enjoyable, the palette changes were pretty poor and Mighty and Ray always seemed like odd choices to me. 

I also agree with the sentiment that the Mania brand can only go so far without major innovation. I think a game like Mania but with entirely new stages is the next logical step, but where do we go from there? We can't keep doing that without it becoming repetitive. At some point, we'll need a major shake up.

[SaturnWolf]

3 hours ago, Plasme said:

I do think there is a threat that Mania could be mishandled going forward, relying on remixing old zones and playing upon nostalgia. I hope that doesn't happen, but it is possible SEGA could take it in that direction..

And as I've said previously, I think Plus was a step backwards so I think there's a real possibility for the franchise to be mishandled. I didn't think Encore Mode was enjoyable, the palette changes were pretty poor and Mighty and Ray always seemed like odd choices to me. 

I also agree with the sentiment that the Mania brand can only go so far without major innovation. I think a game like Mania but with entirely new stages is the next logical step, but where do we go from there? We can't keep doing that without it becoming repetitive. At some point, we'll need a major shake up.

Any gameplay will get repetitive after awhile. That's just an inevitability. There's tons of Pac-Man sequels and spinoffs that all play basically the same. When you have a formula that works, you really don't have to make major changes because again, you have a formula that works. As the old adage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I'm also going to let you in on a little secret: Not every game needs to be a major innovator or game changer. Look at something like Sonic Colors or Generations, they're about as "play it safe" as it gets and they're some of the best received Sonic games out there.

[BradleyCary]

So do they listen to them still? Finally?

[SBR2]

7 hours ago, BradleyCary said:

So do they listen to them still? Finally?

Well people demanded a different gameplay style and they did that with Lost World. Everyone hated it and demanded a return to Boost so they did. And everyone hated it. Fans wanted a darker story and Forces gave them one. Everyone hated it despite it not being any different than the other comically edgy stories they attempted with Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic 06 which everyone hated.

[Foxthefox1000]

On 10/14/2018 at 11:58 PM, DreamSaturn said:

Any gameplay will get repetitive after awhile. That's just an inevitability. There's tons of Pac-Man sequels and spinoffs that all play basically the same. When you have a formula that works, you really don't have to make major changes because again, you have a formula that works. As the old adage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I'm also going to let you in on a little secret: Not every game needs to be a major innovator or game changer. Look at something like Sonic Colors or Generations, they're about as "play it safe" as it gets and they're some of the best received Sonic games out there.

It's the same writing or mechanics/aspects of Generations and Colors that are causing lots of people to complain, though. They're tired of Classic Sonic, "Boost to Win", and Wisps being in everything.

[SaturnWolf]

9 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

It's the same writing or mechanics/aspects of Generations and Colors that are causing lots of people to complain, though. They're tired of Classic Sonic, "Boost to Win", and Wisps being in everything.

As tiring as Classic Sonic is now, in 2011 it was a fairly new thing to have him exist as a separate entity. And honestly? I say they should stick with the Boost. They have a clearly working formula with Generations, they just need to build upon it. It's better to ruffle a few feathers than to go back to that weird, awful period where Sonic Team/Sega re-invented the wheel every damn game.

[Tarnish]

3 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

I say they should stick with the Boost. They have a clearly working formula with Generations, they just need to build upon it.

I personally don't see how anything could be built upon the boosting formula.

[SaturnWolf]

Just now, Tarnish said:

I personally don't see how anything could be built upon the boosting formula.

You see levels like Modern Seaside Hill? Okay, imagine that, but bigger. More paths. More secrets. Now, imagine that with a more original motif. Now, give Sonic more things to do. Races, maybe? Chases could work too.

[Tarnish]

12 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

You see levels like Modern Seaside Hill? Okay, imagine that, but bigger. More paths. More secrets. Now, imagine that with a more original motif. Now, give Sonic more things to do. Races, maybe? Chases could work too.

Unpopular opinion I know, but the 'Modern' Seaside Hill in Generations was a confusing mess for me. Plus, I don't see why exploration should be tied to boosting.

[SaturnWolf]

Just now, Tarnish said:

Unpopular opinion I know, but the 'Modern' Seaside Hill in Generations was a confusing mess for me. Plus, I don't see why explorations should be tied to boosting.

Not exploration in the traditional sense a lot of people think of, this isn't Metroid, obviously, but the whole point behind Sonic is to play the levels/games time and time again, getting better times each time, finding the best route and blazing through as fast as possible.

Which is exactly what the Boost does. It's the perfect manifestation of that.

[Splash the Otter]

What about those of us who don't like the Boost formula?

[Rowl]

No. None of the companies should listen to fans. Fans do most of the time do not know what they want. Sometimes it can turn out very nice like with Breath of the Wild and SSBU, But most of the time it can be a disaster like with most Sonic games.

[Tarnish]

3 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

Getting better times each time, finding the best route and blazing through as fast as possible.

Which is exactly what the Boost does. It's the perfect manifestation of that.

I disagree, I think the boost only takes out the challenge. Why? Because there's no physics at play anymore, no skill reqirement, only press the Boost button and boom, Sonic is instantly at max speed. No build-up. Boosting is not like a nitro in a racing game, it's an instant 'go at max speed' button. The only challange is basically knowing when to press the boost button again. I see no fun in that. Plus the annoying motion blur effect it has when activated and the music distortion, those alone makes me hate using the boost. The little it adds to the gameplay is not worth the ton it takes away. Stage design hardly matters anymore, at least not in the way it used to matter. Sonic stages didn't only consist of a flat plane, it had slopes and and inclines, which weren't just for show, they actually mattered because it affected the character movement. Now all that is just for show, since boosting takes all that out of the picture, it basically just plays along a flat plane.

9 minutes ago, Rowl said:

None of the companies should listen to fans. Fans do most of the time do not know what they want.

Well in this case, I think the company itself doesn't know what it wants.

[SaturnWolf]

Just now, Tarnish said:

I disagree, I think the boost only takes out the challenge. Why? Because there's no physics at play anymore, no skill reqirement, only press the Boost button and boom, Sonic is instantly at max speed. No build-up. Boosting is not like a nitro in a racing game, it's an instant 'go at max speed' button. The only challange is basically knowing when to press the boost button again. I see no fun in that. Plus the annoying motion blur effect it has when activated and the music distortion, those alone makes me hate using the boost. The little it adds to the gameplay is not worth the ton it takes away. Stage design hardly matters anymore, at least not in the way it used to matter. Sonic stages didn't only consist of a flat plane, it had slopes and and inclines, which weren't just for show, they actually mattered because it affected the character movement. Now all that is just for show, since boosting takes all that out of the picture, it basically just plays along a flat plane.

I don't get that, at all. If you just boost boost boost, you're gonna either run into a wall or fling yourself into a bottomless pit. Learning where to drift, where to strife, quickstep, slide, hop, etc. is all equally important. Just holding Boost in levels like Empire City is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

And that's fun, that's unique, that's interesting. There's no other game that plays quite like that. Sonic should play to that strength, not shy away from it.

[Tarnish]

2 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

I don't get that, at all. If you just boost boost boost, you're gonna either run into a wall or fling yourself into a bottomless pit. Learning where to drift, where to strife, quickstep, slide, hop, etc. is all equally important. Just holding Boost in levels like Empire City is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

And that's fun, that's unique, that's interesting. There's no other game that plays quite like that. Sonic should play to that strength, not shy away from it.

I still see it as a step back to what Sonic used to be. You had to watch out for your momentum, need to know when to roll, build up your speed, roll when there's enemies ahead. Knowing you can just press a button and be back at max speed and only lose a fraction of a second, that makes a lot of challenge away. The way you describe is, boosting should be always on and you just have to react when an obstacle comes along..so basically, Sonic should be just an endless runner...which is ironically the direction they've been going with all the mobile entries.

[Foxthefox1000]

Them not refining it is exactly why people are sick of it. They're not being creative and are lazily reusing the same boost mechanics, in which Sonic Forces legit had quite a few "boost to win" levels.

It's gotten that bad, and the way people see it is: If they don't want to make a better mechanic and create a more interesting playstyle with it, then just be done with it.

[SaturnWolf]

2 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I still see it as a step back to what Sonic used to be. You had to watch out for your momentum, need to know when to roll, build up your speed, roll when there's enemies ahead. Knowing you can just press a button and be back at max speed and only lose a fraction of a second, that makes a lot of challenge away. The way you describe is, boosting should be always on and you just have to react when an obstacle comes along..so basically, Sonic should be just an endless runner...which is ironically the direction they've been going with all the mobile entries.

That's not even close to what I was saying. I was explaining to you how "Boost to win" is by and large an exaggerated complaint that's been passed around far too much.

2 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Them not refining it is exactly why people are sick of it. They're not being creative and are lazily reusing the same boost mechanics, in which Sonic Forces legit had quite a few "boost to win" levels.

It's gotten that bad, and the way people see it is: If they don't want to make a better mechanic and create a more interesting playstyle with it, then just be done with it.

I'd rather we not go back to the era of experimental titles where Sonic Team re-invents the wheel every game, thanks. I'd far rather get a consistent playstyle and have a few feathers be ruffled as opposed to the alternative.

[Rowl]

15 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Well in this case, I think the company itself doesn't know what it wants.

None really knows what they want from Sonic. Sonic has so many different faces. Even in this generation alone, we have technically 5 different version of Sonic in terms of tone and atmosphere. 

1. Forces 

2. IDW Comics 

3. Movie

4. Mania

5. And maybe the potential new cartoon that will come 2019.

[Tarnish]

13 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

That's not even close to what I was saying. I was explaining to you how "Boost to win" is by and large an exaggerated complaint that's been passed around far too much.

I'd rather we not go back to the era of experimental titles where Sonic Team re-invents the wheel every game, thanks. I'd far rather get a consistent playstyle and have a few feathers be ruffled as opposed to the alternative.

I never said "go back to the experimental phase", tho that at least would make things interesting again. There's nothing interesting knowing the next game will be the 100% same thing, except now you have to collect wisps instead of rings to fill your boost meter. This dull, overly simplistic, overused an unispired gamestyle has overstayed its welcome, and it's clear they can't do anything new with it. A consistent playstyle is not worth much if it's boring and not fun anymore (for me, it never was).

Would I want them to remove the boost entirely? No, but I would definitely nerf it. My solution would be:
- boosting uses up your rings (not a bar you fill up with rings, but your collected rings), this way you really have to think how much you want to spam it, making it a more precious and unique ability, avoiding its overuse that makes it so uninteresting.
- the effect of boosting isn't instantaneous, you don't go to max speed in a nanosecond, instead it increases Sonic's acceleration by a great deal, but not in a blink of an eye.
- boosting (even at max speed) doesn't make Sonic invincible, thus you have to mix boosting with rolling (anyone remembers that ability?) to defeat enemies, introducing more of a challenge.

[SaturnWolf]

Full disclosure for the sake of context in this discussion: My favorite 3D Sonic game is Unleashed, and my favorite level is Jungle Joyride Day.

Obviously I'm not asking for 100% the same thing of that, as I've stated earlier in this topic, anything will get old eventually if you don't do anything new with it, and thusfar, Unleashed to Generations was the best example of them refining the formula. Sonic's controls improve exponentially and it's not necessarily a death sentence if you don't initiate the Drift at the right moment. There's not much to improve from from there, however...

The level design opens up a lot of possibilities. There's a ton of hidden secrets and hidden pathways, especially levels like Modern Sky Sanctuary. That's the kind of thing that can be built upon and expanded on.

[Tarnish]

5 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

Full disclosure for the sake of context in this discussion: My favorite 3D Sonic game is Unleashed, and my favorite level is Jungle Joyride Day.

Obviously I'm not asking for 100% the same thing of that, as I've stated earlier in this topic, anything will get old eventually if you don't do anything new with it, and thusfar, Unleashed to Generations was the best example of them refining the formula. Sonic's controls improve exponentially and it's not necessarily a death sentence if you don't initiate the Drift at the right moment. There's not much to improve from from there, however...

The level design opens up a lot of possibilities. There's a ton of hidden secrets and hidden pathways, especially levels like Modern Sky Sanctuary. That's the kind of thing that can be built upon and expanded on.

Obviously to each their own, but I had more fun with messing around in Sonic Utopia than with Unleashed and Generations put together.

[SBR2]

4 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

I don't get that, at all. If you just boost boost boost, you're gonna either run into a wall or fling yourself into a bottomless pit. Learning where to drift, where to strife, quickstep, slide, hop, etc. is all equally important. Just holding Boost in levels like Empire City is a sure fire way to get yourself killed.

And that's fun, that's unique, that's interesting. There's no other game that plays quite like that. Sonic should play to that strength, not shy away from it.

Yeah I don't get this either. If you're constantly holding the Boost button of course you won't have fun. The Boost is absolutely not required unless there's a section that needs it. I can't think of too many times I ever really use the boost unless it's necessary.

[Diogenes]

4 hours ago, DreamSaturn said:

That's not even close to what I was saying. I was explaining to you how "Boost to win" is by and large an exaggerated complaint that's been passed around far too much.

The exact phrasing, "boost to win" has always been an exaggeration, but it points to a very real problem with the boost gameplay, that large stretches of the levels are designed to essentially play themselves or require only minimal input. There's a number of videos out there of people playing levels one-handed, not even needing to touch the control stick, where the majority of the level plays out almost identically to a normal run, even getting high rankings. And while that's not possible in every level, that's just showing off the problem at its worst; those sorts of areas exist all throughout the boost games. The games simply aren't designed around freedom of movement; they're designed around specific, strictly defined paths and the player making strictly defined actions to keep the spectacle going.

[Splash the Otter]

I'd personally like to see a return of the Adventure formula. I miss the spin dash...