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Does Sonic Forces have you awaiting the next 3D game announcement?

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10 hours ago, Tarnish said:


There's nothing wrong with "one use" characters, but SEGA/Sonic Team keeps insisting on using characters without actually making them interesting or richer. For example, Silver should have been a one use character, he's from a possible future, done. But nah, he's now apparently here to stay, just because..some fans like him. He's included for no rhyme or reason. For me it's really hard to like a character like that.

I agree. The problem is more Sonic Team bringing back these characters nearly every game, regardless of their relevance to the story, even as cheerleaders. Shadow, silver, and even knuckles to a large degree have had this problem, as well as some others.

And this isn't really the fans fault. They only do it when they feel it the game will attract the most fans possible (which is a good goal in and of itself) but without paying attention to numerous long term consequences. 

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I'm more egearly awaiting the announcement of the next 2D Sonic game instead. 

I mean I want another 3D game and it would be pretty neat if it ended up being good. I feel if a new one was announced soon then that would mean it's release wouldn't be to far into the future. Which means the game would be rushed. Which means it would be bad again.

I would say they need to take their time with it but Forces took like 4 years and turned out to be garbage. I don't know anymore.

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2 hours ago, Rowl said:

a person who just wants to relax and sleep all day.

This right here is one of the problems with Sonic these days and I believe it has become a gross misinterpretation of something Naka once said about Sonic. I wish I could remember where the interview was so I could link it, but it was something to the effect of Naka saying that if Sonic doesn't get a good night's sleep that it ruins his running. So it was never a mater of Sonic being this character who loved to sleep all the time, but rather a character who loves running but needs a good night's sleep to really be able to enjoy it. I guess like a lot of character traits in this franchise though someone latched onto that one particular trait and flanderized it completely out of proportion. Of course it's these moments of twisted characterization that also make it hard for me to anticipate the next 3d Sonic game as well. I find myself honestly more anticipating a reboot at this point just so the franchise can be structured from the ground up and properly fleshed out. I don't expect it to happen though at this point and will look towards the IDW comics as my source of quality Modern Sonic works.

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The Japanese manuals for Sonics 2 and 3 both have him taking a nap before things kick off, so while I wouldn't call him the kind of guy who sleeps all day, there's precedent for him being a dude who likes a good nap from time to time.

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17 hours ago, Tarnish said:

There's nothing wrong with "one use" characters, but SEGA/Sonic Team keeps insisting on using characters without actually making them interesting or richer. For example, Silver should have been a one use character, he's from a possible future, done. But nah, he's now apparently here to stay, just because..some fans like him. He's included for no rhyme or reason. For me it's really hard to like a character like that.

You know, despite liking Silver a bit nowadays due to me embracing his dorkiness, what's messed up about him is the fact that he actually wasn't kept because fans liked him. He was designed and planned from the get go to be a character they were going to keep. Back in 2006, Sonic 06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Rivals were all games we knew were coming. I remember people speculating about how fast Silver's character could potentially be from watching trailers of Sonic Rivals while at the same time being worried about his speed from another trailer from Sonic 06.

They didn't even wait for his reception to come before they decided he was here to stay. They just decided he was here to stay, period. Regardless of what people thought of him after 06. 

And I assure you, people on the internet were mostly negative towards him when he finally made his debut (although I can't speak for Japan or other countries where they don't speak English). He was one the most hated characters for such a long time but he was already slated to return in Rivals which came out the very same year and was also a playable character in Secret Rings' party mode, which came out early 2007. They were putting out so many games at the time. It was insane. 

Oh God. And that shitty Sonic 1 port to the GBA came out in 2006 too! Holy crap SEGA/Sonic Team. What was WRONG with you...?!

Either way, they were probably certain he'd be popular eventually. He was designed to be that way. That's why he's a hedgehog. That's why he was paired up with Blaze, another fan favorite, in an attempt to link them in a manner that made him spring to mind everytime you thought of her. The phrase "Silver and Blaze" is pretty typical and common nowadays so it ended up working. That's also why he was put front and center as one of the main rivals of Sonic in the next handheld outing. 

They didn't know WHAT they were going to do with him once he finally GOT popular but... babysteps I guess? 

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4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

The Japanese manuals for Sonics 2 and 3 both have him taking a nap before things kick off, so while I wouldn't call him the kind of guy who sleeps all day, there's precedent for him being a dude who likes a good nap from time to time.

That's true, and even the OVA has Sonic attempting to nap to start things off. It's always been a part of his character, but the fact that it has been flanderized to the point of being more well known then Sonic being an adventurer is kind of depressing. It doesn't even make sense since Sonic is said to love running above all else yet is shown almost always sleeping. It's a head scratcher and continues to support the sentiment that SEGA/Sonic Team has no idea what type of series imagery this franchise is supposed to have. With so much inconsistencies how can anyone honestly be anticipating the next 3D game with a fully positive mindset?

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Every character in this series, that is playable and has the more traditional Sonic design is met to stay in this franchise. The only once I can think of that fainted away where Tikal and Marine, but that is kinda the case with them, they where never playable. Guys like Silver have got a huge impact on the series. A forced one for sure, but that impact kinda makes it harder to forget them.

We can hate Silver all we want, but he is now a to much established part of the series that we not just ignore him and let him slowly vanish into oblivion. Just like with Big, Blaze and Jet he is met to stay and will stay.

He like many other character serve more like a gimmick nowadays. They kinda push him into many games, just to get the attention of his fans.  

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I've honestly been extremely wishy washy on whether or not I'd want another 3D Sonic game right now. I am aware relying on the Mania formula won't work forever (without any other Sonic game as a supplement, the furthest I could see it going is a trilogy before fatigue makes itself at home), but I have been sorta feeling like Sonic Team might need some time off.

But again, wishy washy, had conflicting ideas as to where to go from here. Sometimes, a break helps. And while I don't think continuing from Mania's success should be a permanent solution, it could at least be a temporary solution to buy Sonic Team some time to recharge some batteries.

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The problem with Mania is actually the same problem that the DKC series have. You can't really make that type of game better. Mania is pretty much the most perfect 2D Sonic game. The only thing that a Mania 2 could do, is to created new brand new levels and maybe more fan service driven characters to become playable like Neck, Classic Amy, The Chaotix etc. 

But like it is now, you can not really improve the game much. It is perfect like it is. 

 

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1 hour ago, Rowl said:

The problem with Mania is actually the same problem that the DKC series have. You can't really make that type of game better. Mania is pretty much the most perfect 2D Sonic game. The only thing that a Mania 2 could do, is to created new brand new levels and maybe more fan service driven characters to become playable like Neck, Classic Amy, The Chaotix etc. 

But like it is now, you can not really improve the game much. It is perfect like it is. 

 

Or have a proper story like Sonic 3&K instead of the clusterfuck "story" that was Mania.

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Y'all need to broaden your imaginations a bit. There's a lot that could be done with the score system, bonus modes, mechanics for new and existing characters and general structure that can keep the experience fresh from entry to entry. Sonic CD is always my go-to example for how you can have the same core gameplay formula with a significant twist in approach (time travel, exploration, etc)

6 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Or have a proper story like Sonic 3&K instead of the clusterfuck "story" that was Mania.

Mania's story is fairly straightforward. Sonic and co chase Eggman and his minions across Mobius Earth with his Phantom Ruby maguffin. Hardly a cluster. That would be Forces.

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4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Mania's story is fairly straightforward. Sonic and co chase Eggman and his minions across Mobius with his Phantom Ruby maguffin. Hardly a cluster. That would be Forces.

In Sonic 3&K we had the goal of preventing the launch of the Death Egg, in Sonic Adventure we had the goal of preventing Chaos from getting all the emeralds, in Sonic Adventure 2 we had the goal of preventing the ARK's canon activation.

But instead, in Mania, we get random teleportation to random locations, with little Planet and Angel Island fallen in the same game, stop recycling old stuff. (Forces is also a clusterfuck, stop recycling green hill and chemical plant and death egg, and tiny mute Sonic).

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15 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

Or have a proper story like Sonic 3&K instead of the clusterfuck "story" that was Mania.

Does the story really matter that much for Sonic? Especially the classic games kept it pretty simple: Eggman comes, causes troubles, Sonic stops him, the end. 

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3 minutes ago, Rowl said:

Does the story really matter that much for Sonic? Especially the classic kept it pretty simple. Eggman comes, causes troubles, Sonic stops him, the end. 

Sonic 3&K had a good story (as well as Sonic Advance2-3, Sonic Rush-Rush Adventure).

If it's always the same story, I might as well just stick to the existing games, if nothing new is presented.

A story makes me want to go to the next level, I don't just want to casually play random levels, I want a full experience for the game.

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They where okay. They have fulfilled their purpose. But I wouldn't call them good. Decent, but not good. After all, no cartoon jump'n run series really needs to have a great story. Mario rescues Peach, DK beats up King K. Rool and Sonic stops Eggman. This is kinda all you need for such a simple premise. 

Plus, they always contradict themselves in latter games, when they establish a bigger narrative in a previous game. Like the whole deal with Knuckles and Angel Island is kinda pointless at this point.    

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1 minute ago, Rowl said:

They where okay. They have fulfilled their purpose. But I wouldn't call them good. Decent, but not good. After all, no cartoon jump'n run series really needs to have a great story. Mario rescues Peach, DK beats up King K. Rool and Sonic stops Eggman. This is kinda all you need for such a simple premise. 

Plus, they always contradict themselves in latter games, when they establish a bigger narrative in a previous game. Like the whole deal with Knuckles and Angel Island is kinda pointless at this point.    

I'm not a fan of Mario for this reason.

At least we have the IDW Sonic comics, which is great for the story department.

3 minutes ago, Rowl said:

Plus, they always contradict themselves in latter games, when they establish a bigger narrative in a previous game. Like the whole deal with Knuckles and Angel Island is kinda pointless at this point.    

I agree that they don't care at all and they don't deserve such dedicated fans:

-Master Emerald disappeared after SA2

-Blaze was from another dimension, then the future, then from another dimension

-Eggman Nega was from another dimension, then the future.

-Silver is shoved in Sonic Forces with no explanation.

-Young Sonic was from the past, then from a parallel universe

-Infinite's backstory is so contradicted and empty, written by people who don't care.

-Removing Cream and Espio and Charmy from TSR, despite their important role in the Adventure era.

 

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I also wouldn't call the stories in the comics great either, but they serve a better purpose their than in the games and also can use the characters in meaningful ways. 

The games on the other hand should really keep it very simple. Kinda like with the Kirby games. Sonic really isn't met to tell a super deep story. Every time they do this it feels either forced or very weird. 

Sonic should just be fun in my eyes. Like with the story in Mania Adventure. It was simple, but very enjoyable.

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16 minutes ago, Rowl said:

I also wouldn't call the stories in the comics great either, but they serve a better purpose their than in the games and also can use the characters in meaningful ways. 

The games on the other hand should really keep it very simple. Kinda like with the Kirby games. Sonic really isn't met to tell a super deep story. Every time they do this it feels either forced or very weird. 

Sonic should just be fun in my eyes. Like with the story in Mania Adventure. It was simple, but very enjoyable.

It doesn't have to be Detroit: Become Human level of deep story.

SA1 had a great story and it was simple: Sonic wants to stop Eggman from feeding Chaos the emeralds. ON TOP of this simple story we can add more interesting elements like the ancient echdina war, Tails and E-102's stories...

Sonic Unleashed is another example of a good story.

 

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It'll probably be a 2.5D game at this rate because with the way everything's going and Sonic Mania being the clear winner of the two anniversary games and Mega Man 11 having a solid reception(and being $29.99, around the same price range as Mania and Forces), seeing a remake of Sonic 3 and Knuckles with cutscenes and awesome character models would be cool or how about a new game altogether?  Whatever it happens to be, it'll lean in the 2D direction more than 3D I imagine.

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1 hour ago, SatAMhog said:

It'll probably be a 2.5D game at this rate because with the way everything's going and Sonic Mania being the clear winner of the two anniversary games and Mega Man 11 having a solid reception(and being $29.99, around the same price range as Mania and Forces), seeing a remake of Sonic 3 and Knuckles with cutscenes and awesome character models would be cool or how about a new game altogether?  Whatever it happens to be, it'll lean in the 2D direction more than 3D I imagine.

Then they should stop calling them 3D games if they continue to cling on to 2D nostalgia like a crutch.

4 hours ago, Rowl said:

I also wouldn't call the stories in the comics great either, but they serve a better purpose their than in the games and also can use the characters in meaningful ways. 

The games on the other hand should really keep it very simple. Kinda like with the Kirby games. Sonic really isn't met to tell a super deep story. Every time they do this it feels either forced or very weird. 

Sonic should just be fun in my eyes. Like with the story in Mania Adventure. It was simple, but very enjoyable.

Then play the Kirby games then.

There's more than one way for Sonic to be "fun". For some people, the not-so-simple plots and character interactions are what made people into Sonic fans to begin with.

Honestly I'd be fine if the series had 2 braches: One with the simple 2D nostalgia trips like Mania and another where it's actual 3D gameplay and plots that go beyond stop Eggman for the hundredth time. 

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Hmmm.... yes... and no. Having a good and entertaining story always will benefit a game i my eyes. I kinda wish Nintendo would do more of this in their games. If Sonic will also have a very deep and exciting narrative for one game I'm absolutely open for it. But.... in Sonic's case it maybe would be better, if they just keep it simple. Every time they created a game with a bigger plot the gameplay will suffer in the end. Think about it... all of the Sonic games that have a very simple premise for a story like Rush, Colors or Mania will end up been very good solid games, but every game in the line up that has a "deep" story kinda also has not that much of an appealing gameplay and level design like Secret Rings, 06, Forces and even the SA series in my eyes.

That is my reason why I kinda want Sonic games  to have simple plots. Because those are in the end always the once, who are most enjoyable gameplay vise. I do not know what it is with Sega, but they never can balance good story telling and gameplay. And the so called "deep" stories in those games are in my eyes not even really good written and have way to many plot holes.

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Yeah I thought about it, and I'm done with "simple" Sonic games. 

I still want the 3D games to be more than "simple". Because the games being nothing more than Sonic fighting Eggman where everyone else kisses his ass doesn't work for me. There are fans who actually enjoy the complex plots that don't ride on genesis nostalgia, who want to see 3D games contain actual 3D gameplay that doesn't cling on to 2D sections for half of the time and have the various characters actually do something instead of going gaga every time Sonic does a lap in Green Hill Zone.

If people just want simple, Mania exists. You may be okay with it, but that won't stop fans for wanting more than that.

Which is why I would like it where the games goes into separate branch series so people can choose what appeals to them and maybe stop fighting each other what Sonic "should" be. 

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