Jump to content
Awoo.

Does Sonic Forces have you awaiting the next 3D game announcement?


Whatever the WhoCares

Recommended Posts

I think a greater focus on story definitely could work for the 3D sonic series. But just not primarily in the way it's been done since the 2000s. I've even had a few ideas myself about a story for a 3D sonic game that I think would fit (I'm not looking for a job though).

Sonic's basic theme has lots of potential already to go in several different directions while maintaining the same basic premise and spirit of the series. It's all about the execution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've actually been avoiding this topic for a while because I honestly don't know what to say.

Cause honestly, after Forces and to an extent Lost World, I kinda get the feeling of the climate that Sonic Team practically can't do anything now and have it be accepted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well... I personally see no other way than just stick to the story telling of Mania and/or the Rush games. I will take a simple (maybe even boring story) if at least the gameplay is fun. No story is actually worth the trouble by going true a broken, glitchy game (06, Boom) or a boring, uninspired game (Forces). In the end, gameplay matters more for a game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2018 at 9:39 PM, Blue Knight/Bluestreak said:

 Even having Shadow and Silver as more important roles than they did in Generations.

 

It's not like Generations had much of a story.

On 10/10/2018 at 10:40 PM, Blue Knight/Bluestreak said:

 

Other than that I think the game was good, better than 2006 and Rise of Lyric (which I don't get why it's criticized from what I seen).

 

Because it's obviously relatively unfinished, in ways moreso than 06.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There’s no reason a Sonic game can’t have good gameplay and a plot that’s more than basic. 

Even when the gameplay is “good” it doesn’t save Generations from being my least favorite Sonic game when everything else around it is lackluster to me.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/12/2018 at 4:14 PM, Tarnish said:



Sonic Generations: every charcater besides the Sonics are just cheerleaders for the Sonics in the entire game. Even tho they are trapped in that time-whatever, they're fine with it and don't feel like they should try to get out of it.

They were initially turned into statues and aren't really involved in the plot at all beyond being saved & the final boss.

They do have dialogue, both voiced and in text, that sometimes involves dealing with whatever problem is at hand.

On 10/12/2018 at 4:45 PM, Tarnish said:

 

Sure looks like the scenery they had on Hex to me.

SLW.jpg

It's clearly based on the Birthday Park from Generations, though. It's just being render using Lost World's graphics because you don't see it much, I guess.

That same area(or one like it anyway) is actually also in Forces in the background of the City Zone.

On 10/13/2018 at 10:06 AM, Sonic Fan J said:

 

If anything, a part of the problem with the franchise is it's small rouges gallery and refusal to explore some of it's more recognized themes. For example, just from the Green Aesop angle I can pitch two Sonic stories using other characters other than Eggman as the main antagonist (even if the good doctor still has some influence).

 

Yeah, that's something that I really appreciate about the Archie comics and is an issue you realize once you look back at the longterm casts. Especially in comparison to both Archie and Mario in the Olympics.

 

It's part of the reason I was actually kind of excited when Lost World revealed that the Deadly Six were these quirky, humorous cartoony new villains for Sonic to go up against.

 

Also, I always did think it was a interesting little detail that Fang essentially had his own Eggmobile in the Marvelous Queen.

On 10/13/2018 at 2:50 PM, Rowl said:

I think that this character trait is more connected with Classic Sonic. Modern Sonic is now more relaxed and likes to be let alone. His is kinda a bit like Big the Cat at this point. Someone that enjoys more the quiet moments in life. 

I personally do not think, that this type of personality will fit with the new attitude of Modern Sonic. A character can't really be both, a person that seeks for adventure and a person who just wants to relax and sleep all day.

Well, he does supposedly need eight hours of sleep to literally run at his most efficient. We just never rarely see him do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2018 at 5:14 AM, Indigo Rush said:

 Hardly a cluster. That would be Forces.

Not really. Forces barely even tried to be a cluster. It just wasn’t good.

On 10/14/2018 at 5:36 AM, Rowl said:

I also wouldn't call the stories in the comics great either, but they serve a better purpose their than in the games and also can use the characters in meaningful ways. 

The games on the other hand should really keep it very simple. Kinda like with the Kirby games. Sonic really isn't met to tell a super deep story. Every time they do this it feels either forced or very weird. 

Sonic should just be fun in my eyes. Like with the story in Mania Adventure. It was simple, but very enjoyable.

I question whether Sonic fans know what make a story “deep,” as everytime they hear that word the first thing to come to mind is “complex as fuck” when that’s not even how depth works in a story.

Sonic Generations had a simple story. It’s saving grace is that it wasn’t bad, but it certainly didn’t come close to the standard fans wanted.

Lost Worlds, meanwhile, was simple. Yet it’s one of the most divisive, often disliked, stories in the series.

Forces was also simple, more so than people claim. Yet it’s considered one of the worst stories, with the added salt that many were looking forward to the premise established from the teaser.

That’s not raging against simpler stories, but when we have simple stories that still get negative reception...why continue to insist that Sonic isn’t for deep plots and should have simple ones when that has nothing to do with the story being good?

Simplicity nor complexity isn’t the issue, quality is.

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/13/2018 at 5:18 PM, Alexios31 said:

What are people wanting/hoping to see for the next 3D game?

A game that's good, fun, and acceptable to most.

On 10/13/2018 at 5:49 PM, Shaun Shikeishuu said:

 

I would say they need to take their time with it but Forces took like 4 years and turned out to be garbage. I don't know anymore.

Were they really even working on it that long aside from Concept art, little ideas for the story, and the music?

On 10/13/2018 at 9:00 PM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

You know, despite liking Silver a bit nowadays due to me embracing his dorkiness, what's messed up about him is the fact that he actually wasn't kept because fans liked him. He was designed and planned from the get go to be a character they were going to keep. Back in 2006, Sonic 06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Rivals were all games we knew were coming. I remember people speculating about how fast Silver's character could potentially be from watching trailers of Sonic Rivals while at the same time being worried about his speed from another trailer from Sonic 06.

They didn't even wait for his reception to come before they decided he was here to stay. They just decided he was here to stay, period. Regardless of what people thought of him after 06. 

And I assure you, people on the internet were mostly negative towards him when he finally made his debut (although I can't speak for Japan or other countries where they don't speak English). He was one the most hated characters for such a long time but he was already slated to return in Rivals which came out the very same year and was also a playable character in Secret Rings' party mode, which came out early 2007. They were putting out so many games at the time. It was insane. 

 

They didn't know WHAT they were going to do with him once he finally GOT popular but... babysteps I guess? 

They seem to be doing that with the Zeti as well.

Although in their case, I don't think it's really that complicating.

On 10/13/2018 at 11:58 PM, Rowl said:

Every character in this series, that is playable and has the more traditional Sonic design is met to stay in this franchise. The only once I can think of that fainted away where Tikal and Marine, but that is kinda the case with them, they where never playable. Guys like Silver have got a huge impact on the series. A forced one for sure, but that impact kinda makes it harder to forget them.

 

I kinda got the sense that they at least wanted to do that with Marine on some small level.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

That’s not raging against simpler stories, but when we have simple stories that still get negative reception...why continue to insist that Sonic isn’t for deep plots and should have simple ones when that has nothing to do with the story being good?

Simplicity nor complexity isn’t the issue, quality is.

That a story being simple doesn't guarantee it being good doesn't mean that the simplicity/complexity, or shallowness/depth, of the story isn't a factor in its quality. And saying "X isn't the issue, quality is" is just about meaningless, because quality isn't some separate factor from all the things that get argued over, it's the synthesis of all of those things.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That a story being simple doesn't guarantee it being good doesn't mean that the simplicity/complexity, or shallowness/depth, of the story isn't a factor in its quality. And saying "X isn't the issue, quality is" is just about meaningless, because quality isn't some separate factor from all the things that get argued over, it's the synthesis of all of those things.

I mean saying a story is too simple or too complex is a surface layer complaint in itself. I understand that "quality is the issue" isn't really saying anything by itself, but it's pretty clearly used as a short hand for "there are a lot of more technical reasons this story doesn't work that don't have to do with it's surface level concept." 

If you want someone to elaborate, fine, but I don't get what the problem is with saying that the execution on the idea is fucked up and not the idea itself.

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Not really. Forces barely even tried to be a cluster. It just wasn’t good.

I question whether Sonic fans know what make a story “deep,” as everytime they hear that word the first thing to come to mind is “complex as fuck” when that’s not even how depth works in a story.

Sonic Generations had a simple story. It’s saving grace is that it wasn’t bad, but it certainly didn’t come close to the standard fans wanted.

Lost Worlds, meanwhile, was simple. Yet it’s one of the most divisive, often disliked, stories in the series.

Forces was also simple, more so than people claim. Yet it’s considered one of the worst stories, with the added salt that many were looking forward to the premise established from the teaser.

That’s not raging against simpler stories, but when we have simple stories that still get negative reception...why continue to insist that Sonic isn’t for deep plots and should have simple ones when that has nothing to do with the story being good?

Simplicity nor complexity isn’t the issue, quality is.

See SpongeBob as a good example. There have been simple stories that are awful (Waiting, Penny Foolish) or great (Gary Takes a Bath, Tutor Sauce). Same with complex ones, Be they great (Sold!, Mustard O’ Mine, Jellyfish Hunter) or puke (Truth or Square)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I mean saying a story is too simple or too complex is a surface layer complaint in itself. I understand that "quality is the issue" isn't really saying anything by itself, but it's pretty clearly used as a short hand for "there are a lot of more technical reasons this story doesn't work that don't have to do with it's surface level concept." 

If you want someone to elaborate, fine, but I don't get what the problem is with saying that the execution on the idea is fucked up and not the idea itself.

I've got no problem with people arguing that something is an issue of execution rather than concept; there's plenty of things in the series that I'd argue that for myself. But there's nothing clear about just saying "quality" because everything has a level of quality, from the tiniest component part up to the whole package. If someone's not clear on what specifically they think is lacking in quality, I can't exactly read their mind to figure it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I've got no problem with people arguing that something is an issue of execution rather than concept; there's plenty of things in the series that I'd argue that for myself. But there's nothing clear about just saying "quality" because everything has a level of quality, from the tiniest component part up to the whole package. If someone's not clear on what specifically they think is lacking in quality, I can't exactly read their mind to figure it out.

That's fair. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People have a different standard of what quality is, sure. They also have a different idea of what games are too. That's part of the reason why I don't agree with the idea that gameplay is the most important thing/the only thing that matters. Here in 2018 currentyeararguement, games have evolved way past the point of being a little 2D Army sprite hoping about on some blocks on a screen. What do people count as the "gameplay" of a game like Detroit: Become Human? I still say it qualifies as a game but if it's definitely an example of how much more flexible games are compared to something like a movie or a book. Regardless of your personal opinion on that game and it's story (David Cage is a very... complicated man we'll say), there's at least a conversation to be had about how much just the world and it's characters contributes to an individual experience nowadays.

This varies from person to person, sure, but there are definitely times where if you hate the world, the characters, and the writing in a game, no matter how good the gameplay is, it's going to suck you dry and you won't want to deal with it anymore. It having solid gameplay isn't enough because there are tons of games out there that have that. Why settle with a game that plays good but is shit at everything else when you can just play a game that does everything good?

Maybe that one thing it does well (gameplay, for example) is the thing you care about the most and that's fine. It's possible you could be someone who can ignore everything else that isn't the one thing you really like. However, I feel there's a higher chance you'll leave with a more positive impression of the game if your motivation to push through to the end is at an all time high because you like the people you're playing as and the journey they're going on. 

Your brain can shuffle through things where this need not apply. Obviously, you'll approach racers, party-games, and mobile games differently but hey, maybe you don't. Maybe you can't even play party or mobile games because they don't offer much beyond solid gameplay. For those people, gameplay certainly wasn't the" most important thing".

I don't want to enforce anything on the series of course. I'm just saying that if you're going to bother writing an action/adventure story than try and make it the best one you can. I can assure you that there's plenty of people who want that if the evidence provided by the success of your new comic, all the fanart, story/character discussion threads, and the metric tons of fanfiction the fanbase churns out somehow wasn't a big enough clue. The gameplay being good doesn't excuse the story being bad. Everything in a game affects a game. At least, that's how I feel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I kinda got the sense that they at least wanted to do that with Marine on some small level.

 

Really? How did you come to that inclusion? For me she seemed to be a traditional NPC like character like Omochao. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, DabigRG said:

They were initially turned into statues and aren't really involved in the plot at all beyond being saved & the final boss.

They do have dialogue, both voiced and in text, that sometimes involves dealing with whatever problem is at hand.

It's clearly based on the Birthday Park from Generations, though. It's just being render using Lost World's graphics because you don't see it much, I guess.

That same area(or one like it anyway) is actually also in Forces in the background of the City Zone.

That's my point, they are filler puppets to make Sonic the hero. Having a few lines of text and speech does not make them an active participant in a story. You could remove every single one of them and the story would still work perfectly: Sonic gets sucked up by the Time Eater, has to run through old stages and collect the Emeralds, face the Time Eater, turn super and defeat it. None of the other characters contribute ANYTHING to the story.

Also, if we really want to get critical, let's not forget that the whole plot falls apart in the VERY FIRST cutscene. All of Sonic's useless friends get sucked up (Honestly, what else can you call them? A fox that's able to fly and an echidna with super strength still gets sucked up within seconds), then Sonic gets knocked unconscious, the PERFECT opportunity for Eggman to defeat him once and for all..! And then he wakes up..totally unharmed..not even tied up, yet alone turned into a statue like all of his other "friends"..not surrounded by enemies or the Time Eater itself..just conviniently left unguarded so he can then go collect the Chaos Emeralds...if you're not gonna put in the slightest of effort to make an engaging story, just don't even bother with it. Generations would have been fine had it been just a list of stages you can select from a menu..at least then it wouldn't force you through pointless cutscenes that amount to nothing with garbage writing and mediocre to terrible voice acting.

Regarding that scene in Lost Word, I think a lot closer guess would be: it's just some random scenery they haphazardly and thoughtlessly threw together for that cutscene. To say it's "clearly based on" the one one from Generations is saying that one super generic park/forest scene is clearly based on another super generic park/forest scene. There's nothing special or unique about any of these scenes, nothing to distinguish them, so you can't claim it's "clearly" based on it. The ONLY thing setting them apart is different artstyles: the Generations park had more realistic looking trees with more realistic leaves. HAD they used those same style of trees in that scene in Lost World, you would have a better chance convincing me it's not a park/forest set on Hex. BUT, since they wen't out of their way to establish "Sonic's planet has these style of trees" JUST IN THE PREVIOUS GAME (Generations), then in Lost World introduce this floating planet (how original, like we hadn't seen that before) with a very different cartoony artstyle, and USE THAT SAME ARTSTYLE in that scene with Amy and Knuckles, then I'm sorry, but the only logical conclusion is that Amy and Knuckles are also on Hex..OR, suddenly Sonic's entire planet just changed artstyle from one game to the other..I'll let you decide which makes Sonic Team look less amateur.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

..OR, suddenly Sonic's entire planet just changed artstyle from one game to the other..

Hey welcome to the Sonic the Hedgehog video game series, it's been doing this since forever.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Hey welcome to the Sonic the Hedgehog video game series, it's been doing this since forever.

 

welcome.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

but the only logical conclusion is that Amy and Knuckles are also on Hex..OR, suddenly Sonic's entire planet just changed artstyle from one game to the other..I'll let you decide which makes Sonic Team look less amateur.

I think it's safe to say the Deadly Six weren't sucking life from their own world. Yes, it wasn't just the Lost Hex, it was supposed to be the new art style of the series. Forces still had the square trees. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Rowl said:

Really? How did you come to that inclusion? For me she seemed to be a traditional NPC like character like Omochao. 

Well, she is essentially meant to be the Tails to Blaze's Sonic in design and skills. She's also in major promo art for the game, from what I recall.

Plus, they also allude to her meeting Sonic & Tails again someday and apparently mention her in Colors DS. That's without getting into how extra media like Sonic Channel and the Archie comics made use of her from time to time.

5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

That's my point, they are filler puppets to make Sonic the hero. Having a few lines of text and speech does not make them an active participant in a story. You could remove every single one of them and the story would still work perfectly: Sonic gets sucked up by the Time Eater, has to run through old stages and collect the Emeralds, face the Time Eater, turn super and defeat it. None of the other characters contribute ANYTHING to the story.

 

So, the 3DS version?

5 hours ago, Tarnish said:



Regarding that scene in Lost Word, I think a lot closer guess would be: it's just some random scenery they haphazardly and thoughtlessly threw together for that cutscene. To say it's "clearly based on" the one one from Generations is saying that one super generic park/forest scene is clearly based on another super generic park/forest scene. There's nothing special or unique about any of these scenes, nothing to distinguish them, so you can't claim it's "clearly" based on it. The ONLY thing setting them apart is different artstyles: the Generations park had more realistic looking trees with more realistic leaves.

Is that not what I said? :lol:

5 hours ago, Tarnish said:


 HAD they used those same style of trees in that scene in Lost World, you would have a better chance convincing me it's not a park/forest set on Hex. BUT, since they wen't out of their way to establish "Sonic's planet has these style of trees" JUST IN THE PREVIOUS GAME (Generations), then in Lost World introduce this floating planet (how original, like we hadn't seen that before) with a very different cartoony artstyle, and USE THAT SAME ARTSTYLE in that scene with Amy and Knuckles, then I'm sorry, but the only logical conclusion is that Amy and Knuckles are also on Hex..OR, suddenly Sonic's entire planet just changed artstyle from one game to the other..I'll let you decide which makes Sonic Team look less amateur.

Or, you know, the fact that the cutscenes make it clear that they're supposed to be back on Sonic's Planet and Sonic&Tails followed Eggman to the Lost Hex, where he intended to use the Extractor to borrow energy from the world below?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Diogenes said:

That a story being simple doesn't guarantee it being good doesn't mean that the simplicity/complexity, or shallowness/depth, of the story isn't a factor in its quality. And saying "X isn't the issue, quality is" is just about meaningless, because quality isn't some separate factor from all the things that get argued over, it's the synthesis of all of those things.

I don’t recall saying that it wasn’t a separate factor, just that it doesn’t determine whether it’s good or bad.

Yet people are quick to generalize that, almost intentionally these days, as a general indicator for quality (simple = good, complex = poor) and make a massive judgement over it at the expense of other technical factors that go into it that might have had just as much or any even bigger factor thant simplicity/complexity. And often this is willful ignorance.

That’s why I pointed out those games with simple plots not actually being good themselves, because that’s not how it works. The problem isn’t on how complex it is or not when even simple plots can fail just as badly. And you’ve known for the longest what I’ve meant when it comes to the execution of that. I mean, we’ve had this discussion how many times now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. Not because of Sonic Forces, but because I know there's still potential to make something great that will excite longtime fans. When I was going through a rough time by having to stay in the hospital over a few weeks of my well-deserved summer vacation, I actually had an opportunity to play Sonic Generations. I only had a Wii at the time, so I personally didn't think I'd ever have the opportunity to ever play that game, yet I did.

I hadn't even touched a video game in roughly 4-5 years at the time. I didn't think any game could rekindle my childish joy and completely blow me away, yet it did. I was completely addicted and could feel why I fell in love with Sonic in the first place. When I saw Forces, it felt hallow, so devoid of passion. It had no soul. 

The levels were bland, with constant repetitive "challenges" within each level that can be solved even by a mere toddler. Sonic team didn't care about Sonic Forces and it showed. But when they do put their heart and soul within a project, it shows and it was reflected by Sonic Generations which is arguably the pinnacle of the franchise (outside of Heroes and Mania) for me and I know if Sonic Team actually worked hard and cared,they can produce something absolutely incredible.

I still have hope, even if it's faint.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/14/2018 at 1:18 PM, Marco9966 said:

But instead, in Mania, we get random teleportation to random locations, with little Planet and Angel Island fallen in the same game, stop recycling old stuff. (Forces is also a clusterfuck, stop recycling green hill and chemical plant and death egg, and tiny mute Sonic).

I didn't think of Mania's story being as  'random'  as you describe it. You have to look at it differently. Eggman has a dangerous and unpredictable 'toy' in his hands he uses to take control of pretty much anything. He just warps Sonic and co. out of the way so he can finish his ultimate creation that is Titanic Monarch (which I think wasn't 100% complete at the time). This may not be the actual aspect of the story, I don't know, but how I see it. It's sort of complex, but still pretty straightforward and understandable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Razule said:

I think it's safe to say the Deadly Six weren't sucking life from their own world. Yes, it wasn't just the Lost Hex, it was supposed to be the new art style of the series. Forces still had the square trees. 

Would the human world look like this, too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.