Jump to content
Awoo.

Does Sonic Forces have you awaiting the next 3D game announcement?


Whatever the WhoCares

Recommended Posts

Well @Wraith I respect your stance and agree that the Rush games were indeed moderately successful, but like the Advance games and Sonic 4 which I said was to an extent successful games (look what happens with Sonic 4 and untruthful physics and the problems that people have with some of the uselessness of the action button in Advance for some characters) before them they were not successful enough to both keep going or receive endless rereleases. While the reasons are up for debate it does speak to the timelessness of the original formula when left intact. Additionally, though not trying to argue the importance of change or otherwise, there was a major problem in your example of Rush that was unrelated to your argument:

17 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Rush is so different from the classics that rolling is entirely useless and there as a courtesy instead of a core feature.

This is a primary example of bad game design. A superfluous component that does not add to the experience and clutters the overall interaction with the game. Regardless of the arguments around change or not this is a problem that plagues the franchise regularly; superfluous components that are waste of player time and developer time and resources. This is a case that if you are arguing for change then Dimps like Sonic Team after them should have removed rolling with the introduction of the boost. Rolling and the Spin Dash are not only redundant next to the boost, but also underpowered and made irrelevant. Who needs to roll to safely defeat an enemy and maintain linear forward momentum when you can just hold down a button and blast through them without a thought? Who needs to stop to rev a Spin Dash to clear a difficult environmental obstacle that you didn't approach right when just holding down that same button blasts you past the obstacle without any need for thought or even willingness to face the challenge in front of you?

Starting a tangent here and going off of the above questions, consider the Metal Sonic race in CD with the boost. As soon as the race starts you should have boost from collecting the rings before hand and are rewarded instant and sustainable top speed at the push of a button and as soon as you hit that upward slope the boost will take you straight to the end from momentum alone. The boost removes all challenge and need to interact with the controls and environment. It just simplifies everything down to go as fast as you can and don't worry about the rest. This evolution and change of the base formula arguably reduces the players interaction with the game even as it gives you more buttons to press. As I've argued in other topics before this undermines the idea behind Sonic's role as a playable character who curls into a ball in the first place; to give the player the means to complete a level in as fast as possible without stopping if they develop the skill to do so. That skill in question is not just knowing when to jump but understanding how to use Sonic's distinct movement and physics to interact with varying environments and figuring out when jumping, running, and rolling work best to get you past an obstacle, environmental, trap, or enemy, in the fastest way possible. With the change to boost you remove that entire challenge from the game and reduce the only challenge to knowing when to jump as the boost will just carry you past any speed based challenge rendering them mute at best and just annoyingly distracting at worst. Saying that that is change for the better is almost arrogant in way as it disregards both history (sales and longevity in this case) and the subjective nature of personal opinion. Further, even from a game design standpoint where simplification in interaction while building as much depth as possible is the ideal direction for a platformer like Sonic (my older brother is a game designer and this is how he was taught games should be made so as to keep them accessible and easy to pick up and play but requiring putting in the time to get good at) this particular change complicates the controls while making certain abilities both superfluous and redundant, and removes almost any true depth of gameplay. It effectively goes in the opposite direction of what it should be attempting to achieve and results in an experience that is only skin deep at best. So I guess in the case of Rush while I'll not call the game a mistake as it did make SEGA money, which was it's primary purpose, I will argue that the design decision was not ideal and comes across as change for the sake of change at the expense at a deep and engaging gameplay in spite of a super simple control scheme.

Anyway, with my tangent aside, I will state that Sonic Rush did introduce a new gameplay identity that the series attempted to follow both in 2D and 3D. As for the success of that change, well since Sonic sales have been gradually less and less with each subsequent game since to the best of my knowledge with Forces and Mania being kind of spring back games, it is debatable how successful that change has been. Success regardless, the jumping all over the place between new and old gameplay identities by SEGA is creating a dissonance and displeasure in their consumer base and making it difficult and unwieldly to advertise what type of game series Sonic is supposed to be. Much as most of love this series and Sonic's blue mug, his blue mug alone cannot persist at selling a videogame series with a gameplay, narrative, and world inconsistency as gravely broken as the consistency of quality as the games released with his mug on it. As important as change can be to keep a series from growing stale, as I said before, what you change is every bit as important as the change itself lest you risk destroying the framework that defines your product in the first place. And in the case of a long running series like Sonic whose genre is nearly extinct (Mascot Platformer) and relies on word of mouth to make it past critical panning to stay relevant and reach new audiences, consistency is a necessity at the moment to build and refine upon to make it easier for the people who still buy these games to want to share with others and not just hide away as a guilty pleasure because they know it's bad. That lack of consistency is one of the reasons that I can say again that in answer to the thread title I am not looking forward to what Sonic Team cranks out next in the 3D platforming genre with Sonic's face on it, because Sonic's face is about the only thing I can anticipate and that is anything but good.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I don't really care to debate your personal feelings about the boost. They're successful games by tangible metrics. 

And there's always an option to do something else. The idea that a game dev can't ever  change the trajectory of a franchise because they might ruffle a few feathers is kind of ridiculous. Anything will make people in the sonic community upset. There is no point to being overly sensitive to their desires. Just as easily as they picked up the boost in the first place they can do something else. 

I never looked into the actual numbers but I'll take your word for it. I'll just say that making money doesn't always go hand in hand with being a quality or well made products. Taking a look at the Transformers movies, the reception of them always seem mediocre at best, terrible at worst on both critic and audience side, and yet somehow they still make a crapload of money.

And yeah, theoretically game devs can change trajectory whenever they want..if the parent company/publisher lets it of course. Who knows how the relationship between SEGA and Sonic Team works. And like Roger pointed it out, using the boost so much and for so long kinda trained people by now on what to expect from a Sonic game. I think they kinda backed themselves into a corner by relying on it for so long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, I'm quite a fan of the Rush games; have been from the start.  But now that I'm pushed to reflect on it, I actually think relatively little of that had to do with the Boost.  The games had a lot else to commend themselves; cool new playable character, an actual plot, vibrant graphics, new level tropes, fresh ideas for how to integrate 3D space into 2D boss fights.  I've even praised the Trick system for giving you something to do during moments of otherwise "dead time" while flying through the air or grinding on a rail.  But the Boost I was often a bit ambivalent about.

The Boost is thrilling, and that helps you to overlook a lot.  But at its worst really lives up to the criticism that you just hold the button to zip on forwards without variation, and in this regard there's a particularly glaring set-piece at the end of one of the first levels where you're being chased by a giant ball and there's no tension as both moving objects glide along at exactly the same pace.  As a 2D game you can't see far ahead of you, so moments where Boosting jets you into an obstacle or a bottomless pit are not unknown; I've always felt, ironically, that it should have worked better in 3D, though the way it ended up it seems the 3D games never had quite as much of a sense of Boost scarcity as the Rush games had if you weren't keeping up with your Tricks.  And now that I think about the Rush games and gameplay - we also have to remember that their sense of experimentation also brought us all that weird stuff with the boats in Rush Adventure, groaning along tapping the touch-screen to fire missiles.  The jetski worked, and I really enjoyed the map exploration aspect, but the rest wasn't particularly Sonic-adjacent.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, FFWF said:

The Boost is thrilling, and that helps you to overlook a lot.

At first it is, but for me that cheap thrill wore off really fast. After that I was like "Okay, that was neat, now can we go back to what made the franchise unique?". But sadly you can't just not use the boost when basically the entire game is built around it. Maybe not as much with Rush specifically, but with the 3D games, definitely.

I think the boost would be better handled if it was handled like nitro in racing games (tho it has been ages since I played a racing game with nitro, so I dunno how they handle it these days compared to the early days) where you REALLY have to use it sparingly. That would make boosting stand out a lot more and feel more unique. When you can just use it through the entire level, it's not exactly unique, is it?

Or there was a consequence to using boost. Instead of just having a bar for it, boosting would use up Sonic's rings. Not just a bar filled by rings, the ACTUAL rings. Gives more incentive for the player to collect as many rings as possible, and also would make boost stand out more as now there's a price to pay for it. And the player can decide if that price is worth it in the given situation or not. Of course this would require that the stages are not designed around the boost.

Plus, the boost shouldn't have an instantaneous effect of taking Sonic to max speed in a blink of an eye. It should be more of a gradual thing where it simply increases Sonic's acceleration, but he still has to speed up graducally to reach top speed. It would just take a lot less time to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes new players to the Boost games don't understand that it's a matter of holding the button, and instead press it as if for a brief burst of speed instead; that might also be a possible reworking, especially under the "instantly take Sonic to max speed" interpretation.  But this may be more a matter for a Boost thread specifically.  Lost World and the alternative gameplay styles in Forces show that we can't even necessarily anticipate that the next 3D Sonic title will be a Boost game, after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2018 at 11:07 PM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Rise of Lyric qualifies as 3d, but not really as a Sonic game in my head. More a beat em up/ Jak and Daxter game that imported Sonic models into it.
So I don't count it like I usually don't count Sonic Runners or Shattered Crystal as 2d Sonic games unless I'm snarky/ thorough for technical reasons.

Altough I suppose you could argue with the current state of the franchise, there is no real identity to what a Sonic game is anymore so Sonic Jump and Lego Dimension's Sonic world are as legit as any other proper game...Okay, fine, you win.
I'll rephrase my statement as "Lego Dimensions was great, can't wait for the next Non-Sonic Team 3d Sonic game. And Non- Sonic Team 2d game for that matter."

Didn’t even LEGO Dimensions have a few 2D sections? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Didn’t even LEGO Dimensions have a few 2D sections? 

Yes, and no....
Lego Dimensions did a weird thing where the storymode of Sonic had the levels designed as 2d stages, but you still have 3d movement of Sonic.
Which was a bit awkward. Occasionally you could fall behind the level geometry if you accidently walked away from the camera.
But it's mostly the Green Hill Zone section that's designed to be fully 2d, the other levels do have 3d open area's incoporated for Lego's typical puzzle gameplay, even if most of the level is stylized to resemble a 2d level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/18/2018 at 6:26 AM, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Something that concerns me more about the boost gameplay is if it even leaves the option open to ever go back.
The "Sonic should be stupidly fast!!!!" mentality is ingrained into people's minds, so going back to a slower gameplay style will likely get a lot of complaints.

I recall Sonic Lost World being disliked for being slow, even tough it doesn't seem slower then, say, the Adventure games.
Which sucks, if we ever want a 3d Sonic game that has any kind of significant platforming ingrained in it's level design, that's impossible to do if the player wants to brainlessly hammer the boost button.
And they'll feel betrayed if the game forces them to slow down to survive, I've seen so many people freak out over Sonic Generations.
And so did Sonic Team, if Sonic Forces' game design is an indication.
Always fascinating to see new players go from complete joy in boosting brainlessly trough Green Hill Zone to completely crumble from the inside when they realise chemical plant zone actually requires you to play the game every now and then.

I suppose 2d fans should be grateful Sonic Rush didn't poison the 2d games like that, I haven't seen anyone complain Sonic Mania is too slow.
Altough I did see people have zero tolerance for water and airplane stages, so even with Mania I notice there's severe impatience for anything that isn't full throttle action.

Either way, far as the 3d games are concerned, I still think Lost World's Parkours system could be a great help in resolving the speed problem, even if Lost World itself never seemed interested.

The thing is that Lost World was bogged down with fetch quests, block platforming, unintuitive puzzles, tedious bosses, borderline paywalls, mandatory grinding, repetitive grinding, finicky controls, useless and automated Wisps, and inane stage gimmick mechanics. Shit like the snowball level is FAR worse than any of the previous gameplay roulette things except MAYBE Tornado Defense and Chip’s weird boxing phase. At least those had a sense of excitement to them. 

 

I’m pretty sure those are why the game is considered to be slow, not the overall speed reduction. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

The thing is that Lost World was bogged down with fetch quests, block platforming, unintuitive puzzles, tedious bosses, borderline paywalls, finicky controls, and inane game mechanics. Shit like the snowball Level is FAR worse than any of the previous gameplay roulette things except MAYBE Tornado Defense and Chip’s weird boxing phase. At least those had a sense of excitement to them. 

 

I’m pretty sure those are why the game is considered to be slow, not the overall speed reduction. 

No, it was definitely the speed reduction. I remember back when this game came out and there were people even here that said specifically that sonic's run speed was too slow. Everything else was mentioned but inherently speaking, it was sonic's run speed that was being pointed out as the main criticism. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, MegasonicZX said:

No, it was definitely the speed reduction. I remember back when this game came out and there were people even here that said specifically that sonic's run speed was too slow. Everything else was mentioned but inherently speaking, it was sonic's run speed that was being pointed out as the main criticism. 

This wouldn’t have happened, if...

* They didn’t move something Sonic could already do in games like SA2 to a single wonky button. 

* They included other characters for other velocities.

* They didn’t rip actual techniques and leave them to Wisps. For example, Light Speed Dash.

* The Levels were given more shortcuts to allow players to go fast through them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

borderline paywalls,

Care to explain that one? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

The thing is that Lost World was bogged down with fetch quests, block platforming, unintuitive puzzles, tedious bosses, borderline paywalls, mandatory grinding, repetitive grinding, finicky controls, useless and automated Wisps, and inane stage gimmick mechanics.

I fully agree with you there, that's the true reason why Sonic Lost World feels off, I just don't have enough faith in most game journalists/ average players to realize that.
And as a result, I'm concerned if Sonic Team realizes what the specific issues are what people are bothered about and not also making broad generalizations.
Sonic Team does tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to them "Fixing" problems.
 

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

I fully agree with you there, that's the true reason why Sonic Lost World feels off, I just don't have enough faith in most game journalists/ average players to realize that.
And as a result, I'm concerned if Sonic Team realizes what the specific issues are what people are bothered about and not also making broad generalizations.
Sonic Team does tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to them "Fixing" problems.
 

And recently they throw out the baby, bathwater, and tub as one cohesive unit. Or sometimes just the baby without throwing out any bathwater (see the Wisps). Maybe this response means the next Sonic Team game, if it exists, is a collectathon game?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.