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Does Sonic Forces have you awaiting the next 3D game announcement?

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6 minutes ago, Scar said:

I want them to do better. But I seriously doubt they will.

Morbid curiosity will have me keep track of any new Modern Sonic game that gets announced, but like Dio and Blue Blood before me, I will not expect anything amazing to come from it.

At this point, I've come to somehow enjoy the inevitable arguments and analysis that will take place over various minutia in teaser/gameplay footage given to us prior to release. Then I'll probably watch the BSC and/or FTCR playthrough of the game and wonder why my childhood's favourite franchise can't reach the potential I know its formula intrinsically possesses. 

If it turns out to be the second coming of Mario Galaxy (except with Sonic), I will gladly participate in the revelry. But that ain't happening son. 

Frankly the best news for me would be that the 3D Modern Sonic games will be going on hiatus until 2021 at the earliest. At least it gives me the impression that they're fucking thinking about the franchise's future instead of chucking out random garbage that needlessly gimps the gameplay of previously successful (if limited) formulae for no adequately defined reason - and then chucks in a pointless gimmick for....banter I guess.

Given Forces, the delay would have to be longer than that. 

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9 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Given Forces, the delay would have to be longer than that. 

I'm fine with that. I say 2021 cause its the 30th Anniversary. But as I said. 2021 at the earliest.

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59 minutes ago, Scar said:

I'm fine with that. I say 2021 cause its the 30th Anniversary. But as I said. 2021 at the earliest.

I would hope so. My hot take is that Sonic's 25th anniversary kinda sucked. We got Fire and Ice, Runners shut down, and a big party that basically just amounted to "See you next year!"

Which is...more of a whimper than anything. I would hope Sonic has a "Better" 30th anniversary, but at this point that's not too hard to accomplish.

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2 hours ago, MegasonicZX said:

I don't think time will fix something that rests squarely on the shoulders of the designers themselves. I mean they managed to make generations (albeit was pretty rushed) in two years so I think it has more to do with something else that's holding them back.

The point is, they need time to figure out what the fuck they want to do with the franchise. 

Yeah, Forces took 4 years and somehow managed to take Generations' gameplay and make it objectively worse in every conceivable way. Endri from Sonic Retro produced some info that suggested they had a brand new gameplay style, which for whatever they abandoned. Then instead of cancelling the project, they made the atrocity that is Forces instead.

Why did this happen?

They need a break from this franchise. That's all I'm saying.

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Any game with Morio Kishimoto as the director will dishearten me on the spot. His ideas for the Sonic games make them very shallow and unfun, and I'd rather take Yoshihisa Hashimoto (who has long since left Sonic Team) or Hiroshi Miyamoto instead. But please, no more from Morio Kishimoto.

Otherwise, I'm looking on with morbid curiousity. I really want to know where Sonic Team will go from here, whether it would be to make another Sonic game, or to revive one of their old properties. There is much to take from Sonic Mania, and 3D Sonic fangames are really starting to pick up now. And there is a sense of brand confusion with Sonic now, so I really want to see what Sonic Team does in response, if they choose to do something about it.

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I have a feeling they will go in a Adventure like direction, not like with the 2 Adventure games from the Dreamcast era, but games that have a similar feeling. Fans demand since years, that Sega should bring back the Adventure formula. Meaning the next game must have...

1. A mature (maybe even a dark story).

2. More playable main characters and only the fan favorite once (meaning Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Rouge, Blaze and Silver must be playable).

3. Crush 40 must do the music for this game.

Those 3 things seem to be biggest demands for  a 3D Sonic game by the fans. I personally still think that the parkour system from Lost World has potential and they should not get rid of it completely. But SA formula seem to have a much higher priority for the fans.

Sonic Forces is technically kinda like SA2 in many aspects: Dark and super edgy story, more than just one playable character, more than just one gameplay still, a military (sort off) is involved in the story, the main antagonist is a super, over the top edgelord, we have once again music pieces with lyrics, almost all of Sonic's friends are there, and the level themes are more closer to that of the Adventure games with a big city, a dark forest, a space station and a desert and the over all tone of the game is more closer to that of SA and SA2.

I would not be surprised if the next game will be like SA and SA2.

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41 minutes ago, Rowl said:

I have a feeling they will go in a Adventure like direction, not like the 2 Adventure games from the Dreamcast era, but games that have a similar feeling. Fans demand since years, that Sega should bring back the Adventure formula. Meaning the next game must have...

1. A mature (maybe even a dark story).

2. More playable main characters and only the fan favorite once (meaning Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Rouge, Blaze and Silver must be playable).

3. Crush 40 must do the music for this game.

Those 3 things seem to be biggest demands for  a 3D Sonic game by the fans. I personally still think that the parkour system from Lost World has potential and they should not get rid of it completely. But SA formula seem to have a much higher priority for the fans.

Sonic Forces is technically kinda like SA2 in many aspects: Dark and super edgy story, more than just one playable character, more than just one gameplay still, a military (sort off) is involved in the story, the main antagonist is a super, over the top edgelord, we have once again music pieces with lyrics, almost all of Sonic's friends are there, and the level themes are more closer to that of the Adventure games with a big city, a dark forest, a space station and a desert and the over all tone of the game is more closer to that of SA and SA2.

I would not be surprised if the next game will be like SA and SA2.

Let's not kid ourselves: even if they attempted to do all that, the game would be crap if Sonic Team worked on it. Sonic Forces showed their interpretation and vision for a "mature/dark" story is Sonic not taking anything siriously and still cracking jokes, other characters not contributing anything worthwhile to the story even tho their lifes are also on the line and are simply shoehorned in there in an attempt to please fans. Their idea for different gameplay styles is "Sonic + Sonic + anybody else but not the characters people have been begging for". Even Crush 40 has lost it's touch if you ask me, their last few songs were just meh IMO.

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4 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Let's not kid ourselves: even if they attempted to do all that, the game would be crap if Sonic Team worked on it. Sonic Forces showed their interpretation and vision for a "mature/dark" story is Sonic not taking anything siriously and still cracking jokes, other characters not contributing anything worthwhile to the story even tho their lifes are also on the line and are simply shoehorned in there in an attempt to please fans. Their idea for different gameplay styles is "Sonic + Sonic + anybody else but not the characters people have been begging for". Even Crush 40 has lost it's touch if you ask me, their last few songs were just meh IMO.

I predict we would be getting another Sonic 4 down the line, this time with Adventure aspects. That’s what i would predict would occur.

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6 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Let's not kid ourselves: even if they attempted to do all that, the game would be crap if Sonic Team worked on it. Sonic Forces showed their interpretation and vision for a "mature/dark" story is Sonic not taking anything seriously and still cracking jokes, other characters not contributing anything worthwhile to the story even tho their lifes are also on the line and are simply shoehorned in there in an attempt to please fans. Their idea for different gameplay styles is "Sonic + Sonic + anybody else but not the characters people have been begging for". Even Crush 40 has lost it's touch if you ask me, their last few songs were just meh IMO.

Well... if the current Sonic Team isn't capable in doing a good 3D Sonic game anymore and if Sega kinda lost track in what Sonic actually is for the fans, than I feel they have to reboot the entire series again. Their kinda need to do this now, since it is now canon that the whole Classic era is part of an alternate storyline in a different dimension. They need to start over form the scratch and give the 3D series a new head canon now.

1. How did Sonic meat Tails and Amy?

2. Is Knuckles still the guardian of the Master Emerald and is the Master Emerald still a thing in the modern era?

3. Is Shadow still the ultimate life from created by General Robotnik and are G.U.N. and Maria still connected to his backstory

4. Are their still humans in this world or is it now populated only by  anthropomorphic animals? 

5. Is Blaze still from another Dimension and is Silver still from the future? 

It really seems that Sega kinda need to start creating a new backstory for the modern timeline, since the classic timeline does not exist anymore in their world. 

 

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Time isnt the issue. Its vision and focus.

More time (than the 4 years it took to make forces) isn't going to cure the series issues. What will fix them is for SEGA/SonicTeam to have a clear vision for what they want the brand to be. Then they need to stick to their plan and realize they cant please absolutely every sect of fans, but they can make the series popular with general audiences again by having a strong brand with a clear identity, and consistency...which is what really matters for an iconic series like sonic. When people no longer are confused about what the series is and come to expect excellent games, the series will be fully restored. But they need to pick a direction without worrying about ticking off one of their many subgroups of fans. It almost doesnt matter what direction they decide to go in (they should probably try to remember what made the series popular in the first place though) as long as they are consistently excellent about their offerings. 

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7 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Let's not kid ourselves: even if they attempted to do all that, the game would be crap if Sonic Team worked on it. Sonic Forces showed their interpretation and vision for a "mature/dark" story is Sonic not taking anything siriously and still cracking jokes, other characters not contributing anything worthwhile to the story even tho their lifes are also on the line and are simply shoehorned in there in an attempt to please fans. Their idea for different gameplay styles is "Sonic + Sonic + anybody else but not the characters people have been begging for". Even Crush 40 has lost it's touch if you ask me, their last few songs were just meh IMO.

I don't have anything against "mature/dark" elements. I think, done right, they can add tension or drama to a story and help build investment in the characters.

Mario's done it well (Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario), Mega Man's done it well (The X/Legends series and even certain installments of the classic series), and even Sonic's done it well on occasion (Sonic Adventure 2). Indie hits like Undertale have done this very well.

But in all of these examples, the entire game wasn't one long drawn-out humdrum edge-fest without any levity. These games knew how to mix in lighthearted elements, and at times outright comedy, to prevent the mood from getting too dour. The light silly fun stuff helps us to get attached to the world and its characters, so that when we do get slammed with the darkness and sad themes later on, we're more invested and more likely to care about what's happening.

The problem is, Sonic Team just can't find that happy medium. It's either constant (and usually bad) jokes, or it's constant (and usually unintentionally funny) drama. This series is really bad at finding a nice balance between the two extremes, which is what I think they need if they expect people to take their "serious" stories, well... seriously. 

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Even though I didn't actually play it, Sonic Forces, combined with a few other stupid decisions by Sega and being worn out by many aspects of the fandom, has made my interest in Sonic almost vanish. Let's be clear here though - all my interests are "on again off again" and I'm completely confident that my lack of interest in Sonic won't be permanent. In fact, I have a feeling I may "go back" to Sonic very soon, actually. However, my interest in the future of the modern Sonic series specifically may very well be killed for good, unfortunately. It may be that in the future my only interest in Sonic is the old media and new classic-style media.

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Wow. There are still people who think Sonic adventure 2 was an example of a dark story done right. I thought for sure by now we'd all grown up and realized how stupid and poorly written that was. Even when I was 13 I thought that. And it's not even as low as this series has gone in that department.

Forces wasn't written much worse than SA2, really. To distinguish the two I'd say SA2 was stupid but at least memorable in some of those parts, and Forces was stupid and almost completely forgettable.

But the writing standards for this series in general aren't high. At best, they're generally okay. 

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11 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Wow. There are still people who think Sonic adventure 2 was an example of a dark story done right. I thought for sure by now we'd all grown up and realized how stupid and poorly written that was. Even when I was 13 I thought that. And it's not even as low as this series has gone in that department.

Forces wasn't written much worse than SA2, really. To distinguish the two I'd say SA2 was stupid but at least memorable in some of those parts, and Forces was stupid and almost completely forgettable.

But the writing standards for this series in general aren't high. At best, they're generally okay. 

Well, I don't consider SA2 a dark story.

I consider it a story with dark elements. And it's not a particularly great story, but it's also not offensively bad - which is more than I can say for Shadow, 2K6, or Forces.

SA2 is, for the most part, still just a game about stopping Eggman from taking over the world. It's full of colorful robots, goofy-faced ghosts, a pyramid base full of Eggman's mug slapped onto ancient Egyptian artwork, and fairly lighthearted character interactions throughout. (Oh yeah, and rap songs about Emeralds. Can't forget those.)

Really, only the finale (and a couple of flashback scenes with Shadow) offer these "dark" elements. The game doesn't wallow in them and get up in the player's face about how sad and serious it's trying to be, and on that front, I think SA2 did a much better job than later games in the series that aimed for a similar tone.

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Sonic Adventure 2 is definitely trying to be dark. It focuses on the trauma of Shadow after his friend Maria was murdered in a secret government cover up of the Ark Incident. At the end of the game, Gerald Robotnik tries to destroy the entire planet due to the grief of losing his daughter. The main theme of the game is how people deal with grief, it's pretty dark, way darker than any Sonic game before it.

I actually do enjoy the game's story for what it is, but I know it's actually pretty terribly done 😛 . I mostly like it because when I played it when I was 12 I thought it was badass, but I've grown up now and seen stories which tackle subjects like this with much more nuance and skill.

I do think there are elements from Adventure 2's story which are legitimately good. I like the rivalry between Sonic and Shadow because it focuses on their speed, since that taps into the whole ethos of the franchise. I also like Tails and Eggman's more antagonistic relationship as tech scientists. It works for me in a way that the goofy rivalry in Lost World etc doesn't. 

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

It almost doesn't matter what direction they decide to go in (they should probably try to remember what made the series popular in the first place though) as long as they are consistently excellent about their offerings. 

That will be a bit tricky. Sonic became so popular in the first place because of 3 things:

1. The rivalry against Mario

2. His design

3. His 90's attitude

The rivalry against Mario gave Sonic so much attention back than, because everybody wanted to see, if Sega really manage to create a character that could rival the biggest video mascot in the world. This rival battle between those two is now over. But back than it was a huge deal.

His design is still appreciated to this day, but it is not really a reason for people to buy the game anymore. They can still enjoy the designs of the characters in form of fanarts on the internet or just draw them by themselves. 

And the 90s are over. Sonic is not really that cool anymore in the eyes of todays kids. But for the kids that grew up with Sonic he was one of the coolest fictional characters in their eyes, because Sega just stuffed everything that was popular in the 90s into his character.

It is not really easy to take such a character over into a next generation, if they are so much stuck in the specific year they where born. It is the same thing like with ALF, who also vanished when the 90s ended. 

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Wow. There are still people who think Sonic adventure 2 was an example of a dark story done right. I thought for sure by now we'd all grown up and realized how stupid and poorly written that was. 

"Oh my god! People still like a game that I hate. They must all conform to my opinions alone."

This is a big factor for why the fandom is so fractured.

If people can still enjoy games whether it's Sonic Adventure 2, 06, Lost World or even Boom, why you do have to be a douche to them? 

Seriously SA2 wasn't as "dark" as people make it out to be. Sure it had some serious moments but it wasn't at the same level as Sin City or Watchmen.

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Wow. There are still people who think Sonic adventure 2 was an example of a dark story done right. I thought for sure by now we'd all grown up and realized how stupid and poorly written that was. Even when I was 13 I thought that. And it's not even as low as this series has gone in that department.

Forces wasn't written much worse than SA2, really. To distinguish the two I'd say SA2 was stupid but at least memorable in some of those parts, and Forces was stupid and almost completely forgettable.

But the writing standards for this series in general aren't high. At best, they're generally okay. 

Is Sonic Adventure 2's story the best story ever? No, there are issues and some plotholes and some poorly written lines in it. But still, it's the best story the franchise ever got so far.

And if you ask me, yes, Forces is far, FAR worse in the writing department. Trying to tell an epic and dark story, while the characters are acting completely out of touch with the happening of their surrounding (Green Hill turned into a desert, besides the fact that goes AGAINST the established canon by not even being an island anymore, maybe it can't even be reversed to its original stage, yet Sonic makes jokes about it..yeah, really sets the mood properly). Characters are completely butchered to be useless idiots Sonic can save and be the hero (Tails not being able to face a few average Eggman robots). Sonic supposedly tortured for months, not even a slight sign that even occured, let alone having an effect on him..he's still cracking jokes, still perfectly healthy and energetic, doesn't give the slightest of sign he cares it happened to him. Long, cringeworthy, boring, out of the blue monologing from Sonic about friendship and all that, when all throughout the game he was portrayed to not give the slightest of shit about it himself. If it doesn't make him look like a hero, he's not doing jack shit with any of his supposed "friends". A villain with the stupidest reason to lose his mind, then spend the entire game fighting against Sonic, who didn't even have anything to do with his reason to lose his mind, and the main game doesn't even tell what the hell that guy is all about ,you have to play a side DLC/story for the main villain to even make the slightest sense. Then, he just disappears somehow, who the hell needs an explanation when you can just write an anticlimatic end to the main villain, am I right?

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1 hour ago, Rowl said:

That will be a bit tricky. Sonic became so popular in the first place because of 3 things:

1. The rivalry against Mario

2. His design

3. His 90's attitude

The rivalry against Mario gave Sonic so much attention back than, because everybody wanted to see, if Sega really manage to create a character that could rival the biggest video mascot in the world. This rival battle between those two is now over. But back than it was a huge deal.

His design is still appreciated to this day, but it is not really a reason for people to buy the game anymore. They can still enjoy the designs of the characters in form of fanarts on the internet or just draw them by themselves. 

And the 90s are over. Sonic is not really that cool anymore in the eyes of todays kids. But for the kids that grew up with Sonic he was one of the coolest fictional characters in their eyes, because Sega just stuffed everything that was popular in the 90s into his character.

It is not really easy to take such a character over into a next generation, if they are so much stuck in the specific year they where born. It is the same thing like with ALF, who also vanished when the 90s ended. 

This is undoubtedly a large part of it. But the reason the original games in the series still maintain their strong reputation (unlike, say, the adventure games which reviewed well immediately after their release but aged very quickly and now are quite polarizing) is because they were solidly made games that people still continue to play 20 years later. I completely agree that the marketing and branding aspect will continue to be the largest part of the equation going forward but Sonic can't escape his reputation by continuing to make poor games because the series is now known primarily for continually churning out subpar games. It needs to regain that iconic status it once had in terms of gameplay. An easy way to do that is to remember what Sonic was created to do before you start building anything else on top of it.

3 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

"Oh my god! People still like a game that I hate. They must all conform to my opinions alone."

This is a big factor for why the fandom is so fractured.

If people can still enjoy Sonic Adventure 2, 06, or even Boom, why you do have to be a douche to them?

Never said I hate SA2. In fact I don't. I've said that many times on this site. I've played it and enjoyed many hours of it. My favorite 3D Sonic game? Far from it but I don't believe it to be a trainwreck like some other Sonic games obviously have been.

SA2's story however, is stupid and poorly written. Again, I don't think the Sonic series has ever been particularly good in that department even at its best. It surely can be though.

And Forces missed a ton of opportunities with its story. Its premise was actually a good one that hadn't been done in the series before but it wasted essentially all of the potential with common writing sins "Show, don't tell" in many instances, and was full of lines written in very poor taste. Also not the worst in the series but not a well written story.

 

Also in general, if I or anyone comment on an aspect of a game and think its stupid, its not a personal attack. This should be easy to understand. Attacking someone personally for liking something is being a douche. Saying you don't like that game or criticizing is not a personal attack. 

There are many younger fans who don't care for Sonic 3 and Knuckles of Mania and talk crap about those games and I don't get my underpants in a bunch. They have their preferences and are not attacking me personally. Its okay that they don't like them even if I do. The world is completely filled with those kind of situations. 

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23 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Long, cringeworthy, boring, out of the blue monologing from Sonic about friendship and all that, when all throughout the game he was portrayed to not give the slightest of shit about it himself.

Dude, like, nearly every scene with both Sonic and the avatar character has them working well together, becoming more friendly, and eventually they had Sonic explicitly calling the avatar his friend and saying his friends are why he's gotten this far, even before the awkward "heart, soul, and friendship" line.

Is this one of those "it doesn't count if it's not the characters I care about" kind of things?

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23 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Is Sonic Adventure 2's story the best story ever? No, there are issues and some plotholes and some poorly written lines in it. But still, it's the best story the franchise ever got so far.

And if you ask me, yes, Forces is far, FAR worse in the writing department. Trying to tell an epic and dark story, while the characters are acting completely out of touch with the happening of their surrounding (Green Hill turned into a desert, besides the fact that goes AGAINST the established canon by not even being an island anymore, maybe it can't even be reversed to its original stage, yet Sonic makes jokes about it..yeah, really sets the mood properly). Characters are completely butchered to be useless idiots Sonic can save and be the hero (Tails not being able to face a few average Eggman robots). Sonic supposedly tortured for months, not even a slight sign that even occured, let alone having an effect on him..he's still cracking jokes, still perfectly healthy and energetic, doesn't give the slightest of sign he cares it happened to him. Long, cringeworthy, boring, out of the blue monologing from Sonic about friendship and all that, when all throughout the game he was portrayed to not give the slightest of shit about it himself. If it doesn't make him look like a hero, he's not doing jack shit with any of his supposed "friends". A villain with the stupidest reason to lose his mind, then spend the entire game fighting against Sonic, who didn't even have anything to do with his reason to lose his mind, and the main game doesn't even tell what the hell that guy is all about ,you have to play a side DLC/story for the main villain to even make the slightest sense. Then, he just disappears somehow, who the hell needs an explanation when you can just write an anticlimatic end to the main villain, am I right?

I won't try to convince you otherwise if you feel SA2 is the best written Sonic story ever. Obviously we have very wide disagreement on this but this thread is more of a reaction to Forces. 

All I'll say generally about both of your paragraphs is that I think Sonic can be handled much more skillfully in the writing department than he has been, mostly on all fronts. The standard has been quite low in my opinion and it wouldn't take a Hemingway to raise it.

 

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25 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Never said I hate SA2. In fact I don't. I've said that many times on this site. I've played it and enjoyed many hours of it. My favorite 3D Sonic game? Far from it but I don't believe it to be a trainwreck like some other Sonic games obviously have been.

SA2's story however, is stupid and poorly written. Again, I don't think the Sonic series has ever been particularly good in that department even at its best. It surely can be though.

Also in general, if I or anyone comment on an aspect of a game and think its stupid, its not a personal attack. This should be easy to understand. Attacking someone personally for liking something is being a douche. Saying you don't like that game or criticizing is not a personal attack. 

There are many younger fans who don't care for Sonic 3 and Knuckles of Mania and talk crap about those games and I don't get my underpants in a bunch. They have their preferences and are not attacking me personally. Its okay that they don't like them even if I do. The world is completely filled with those kind of situations. 

The thing is, it does come off as you insulting the people who like the game when you say "I thought for sure by now we'd all grown up and realized how stupid and poorly written that was." As if fans who actually enjoy the story are immature for liking it.

Also can we talk about "the writing has never been good" argument? Every time someone says that it's an invitation for Sonic Team to not try to improve in that department

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Just now, knuckles20 said:

Also can we talk about "the writing has never been good" argument? Every time someone says that it's an invitation for Sonic Team to not try to improve in that department

I'd say the opposite; it's a call not to put any existing games' writing on a pedestal or to settle for what we've had instead of arguing for something better. UpC even said the writing's never been very good but "it surely can be".

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SA2's story is kinda... meh in my eyes. Back when I was younger I actually thought the story was kinda cool and compelling. But when I got older I saw all of the many flaws this story had and how out of place it felt for a video game series starring a cartoon hedgehog that eats chili dogs. It really felt like Sega tried to copy the dramatic story telling of other series back than.

They always do that with Sonic. Always want to make him hip and cool and with the times. Maybe they should just give him an identity for once. Every other series knows want it wants to be. Mario is lighthearted fun, Zelda is a fantasy adventure story and Crash Bandicoot is just whacky and silly. 

The first step would be to give Sonic for once his own identity. Because I think if the series finally would have one, they could easily build the game around it and do not have to worry about trends and facts. 

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