Jump to content
Awoo.

Does Sonic Forces have you awaiting the next 3D game announcement?


Whatever the WhoCares

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Is that not what I said? :lol:

Or, you know, the fact that the cutscenes make it clear that they're supposed to be back on Sonic's Planet and Sonic&Tails followed Eggman to the Lost Hex, where he intended to use the Extractor to borrow energy from the world below?

No, that's not what you said at all. You said that Lost World park is "clearly based" on the Generations one. To say one thing is "clearly based" on something means (for me anyway) the creator deliberately looked at something and took inspiration from it. You could ask 2 separate people to draw a plain with a few trees on it and guess what? They would probably look very similar, without them ever seeing the other's work to take inspiration from. Without anything in either park scenes to make them unique or identifiable, you can't claim one is "clearly based" on the other.

Did you not read anything I just wrote? It does not make it clear in any way shape or form where Amy and Knuckles are. In the previous games (Unleashed, Colors, Generations) they established that Sonic's world has a somewhat realistic artstyle (the designs of the locations and scenary might be wacky, but the artstyle is still more based on a realistic artstyle). With Lost World, they introduced a very different, more simplictic and cartoony artstyle. I guess excuse me for trying to think rationally and assume that new artstyle applies ONLY to the Lost Hex and not suddenly Sonic's entire world. Because you know, when they just show a bland park area with nothing in it to clearly identify it without a doubt and has a totally different artstyle than they established in the the previous few games, my first thought is definitely "Oh, the artstyle on Sonic's planet just changed, SO obvious" and not "Well, if this scene has this new artsytle, it has to be on this newly introduced planet that has the same artstyle".

But to make all this related to the actual topic of the thread: THIS is exactly why I have no faith in any new Sonic game Sonic Team will make, 3D or 2D. They can't settle on ANYTHING, they have no vision for the franchise. Whatever the hell is on their mind at the given day is what they'll go with, doesn't matter if it makes no sense at all or if it goes against something they did in a previous entry, and if it backfires, they'll just steer in a totally different direction and you're just expected to forget and pretend it never happened in the franchise.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking back at Lost World's cutscenes, the first one has Sonic and Tails discovering the Lost Hex, and the next is them contacting Amy and Knuckles - which does imply that Amy and Knuckles are very definitely somewhere else.  On the other hand, if your first impression of the park Amy and Knuckles were in was that it had to be part of Lost Hex because of the art style, then I can see how you would interpret events differently and that would colour your reading of the game going forward; the game doesn't really do anything to establish setting and it feels like Amy and Knuckles were just plonked into a generic location because the writers didn't really care where they were.

With that said, Sonic Team changing art styles out of the blue is an entirely safe assumption (and probably the one most people made).  It does underline the point that their vision for the franchise as a whole doesn't appear to exist; they can't think beyond, or before, the individual game they're working on at that moment.

 

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, FFWF said:

Looking back at Lost World's cutscenes, the first one has Sonic and Tails discovering the Lost Hex, and the next is them contacting Amy and Knuckles - which does imply that Amy and Knuckles are very definitely somewhere else.  On the other hand, if your first impression of the park Amy and Knuckles were in was that it had to be part of Lost Hex because of the art style, then I can see how you would interpret events differently and that would colour your reading of the game going forward; the game doesn't really do anything to establish setting and it feels like Amy and Knuckles were just plonked into a generic location because the writers didn't really care where they were.

With that said, Sonic Team changing art styles out of the blue is an entirely safe assumption (and probably the one most people made).  It does underline the point that their vision for the franchise as a whole doesn't appear to exist; they can't think beyond, or before, the individual game they're working on at that moment.

 

It's mind boggling to me how easily they could have solved all this, yet they couldn't muster the intelligence, effort or whatever they're in clear lack of.  Just show Amy and Knuckles in a place everyone could clearly, without a doubt recognise it's on Sonic's planet. At Tails' workshop (if that's even a thing they remember at all), or hell, in that very same park with the picnic table from Generations for all I care, and say only the Lost Hex has that cartoony artstyle. That way they're not screwing with the entire world of Sonic (AGAIN) and they can still have their cartoony looking game.

But alas, leave it to Sonic Team to ruin absolutely everything they touch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Especially since Lost World's planet Hex is SUPPOSED to look weird for Sonic standards, hence the name. "Lost World". "Lost Hex" We're supposed to be all "What a weird world, made out of hexes? I wonder what more secrets and amazing stuff it's hiding!"
But then Sonic's  regular world also looks like that, so now Lost Hex is just a bunch of meaningless levels with no theme or unique concept at all since Sonic's entire universe operates on the same logic.

Just like how Hex was supposed to be the "continent of the future" and "made out of illusions" according to some supplemental material. It seems at some point that Sonic Team designed Hex as an actually interesting world with a unique theme to it, an actual "lost world" for us to discover.
But somewhere along the way they went for their usual design philosophy of "Eh, whatever" and now it's just more clutter in the shapeless careless smudge that is Sonic's universe.

I'm always baffled when I then hear stories of Sonic Team having super strict and completely random rules for, say, the American comics to abide too. All pretending they have standards and some some grand design the other teams must obey, while carelessly bouncing from one half baked idea to the next abondonned concept themselves.
I would so love to see the series bible that it allegedly has, and see if there's even one game that follows it.
If there are, it's probably only the games made by secondary teams.


As for the topic, does Sonic Forces get me waiting for the next 3d game? I've been waiting for the next 3d game since Sonic Unleashed.
We got Sonic Mania now, can we stop with the pointless hybrids please?

  • Thumbs Up 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

As for the topic, does Sonic Forces get me waiting for the next 3d game? I've been waiting for the next 3d game since Sonic Unleashed.
We got Sonic Mania now, can we stop with the pointless hybrids please?

Yeah, when was the last proper 3D entry in the main franchise? The storybook series was a spinoff, Unleashed was a hybrid, Colors was a hybrid, Generations was a hybrid, Lost World was a hybrid, Boom was a spin-off, Forces was a hybrid..so does that make Sonic 2006 the last time they actually attempted Sonic in purely 3D?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Technically yes. 06 was the last pure 3D Sonic in the series, if you guys not count the storybook games. And that kinda tells me why Sega seems to avoid in making another real 3D only Sonic game. People to this day still remember 06 and how awful it was. A bit unfair, but I can see why people kinda bring 06 always as an argument against 3D Sonics, because non wants to see such a game again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Rowl said:

Technically yes. 06 was the last pure 3D Sonic in the series, if you guys not count the storybook games. And that kinda tells me why Sega seems to avoid in making another real 3D only Sonic game. People to this day still remember 06 and how awful it was. A bit unfair, but I can see why People kinda bring 06 always as an argument against 3D Sonics, because non wants to see such a game again.

Funny how they only remember the bad examples, but not the good ones. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, for all their faults, had potential to become even better in the right hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well... technically those games later became, more or less, Unleashed and than later Colors. Most people like the Sonic levels the most, if you take out the mech levels, the fishing and the treasure hunting levels, than technically the only good thing left about those games are the high speed levels of Sonic and Shadow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Rowl said:

Well... technically those games later became, more or less, Unleashed and than later Colors. Most people like the Sonic levels the most, if you take out the mech levels, the fishing and the treasure hunting levels, than technically the only good thing left about those games are the high speed levels of Sonic and Shadow.

Unleashed and Colors have a completely different approach than the Adventure games, so I think it's completely apples to oranges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That of course is part of the part of the problem that people have. This is supposed to be one franchise, yet with the main entries we never know if we're getting apples, oranges, lemons, grapefruits, pomegranates, or even the odd dragon fruit. It's a veritable cornucopia of possibilities and more often than not we get something that just doesn't make immediate sense. Like take Forces for example. We heard the idea was to make the gameplay as accessible as possible so anyone could play and make it through the game yet the end result was almost the bare minimum of gameplay. If you were to say that Sonic Team is trying to make lemonade there going about by trying to wring lemon juice from the seed and not the whole fruit. It's a mess right now that needs to be cleaned up. If you're going to promise me a bushel of apples, don't throw in pears because they're close enough. They just simply don't belong.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you sure? Because for me both gameplay styles in the end have a similar goal. Get to the end with the help of speed and platforming. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How you get to the end is where the problem occurs and lack of series cohesion is made apparent. Using Adventure and Boost formula's as our example one is attempting to recreate the 2D formula as reasonable as possible in 3D space while also including numerous other platforming sub-genres attached to other characters with even puzzle solving including and the other is strongly pushing for build and use the boost mechanic to blast through the levels as fast as possible with minimal level interaction as the boost naturally encourages that type of play. Sure both are platforming and speed based with the same goal, but how they go about that get to the goal structure is significantly different. It doesn't admittedly have to be troublesome, but it still is not particularly cohesive. Though, If you were to ask me, I'd take Sonic's gameplay from Adventure, Heroes, Boost, and Lost World, (maybe even classic 2D) and make those the different sub-genres of platforming for different characters if you wanted to be more cohesive with it in the same game.

Point is though, while all of the above have the same goal, they all approach it differently and that is where a lot of the problems persists. It's not the goal, it's the journey so to say.

  • Nice Smile 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

How you get to the end is where the problem occurs and lack of series cohesion is made apparent. Using Adventure and Boost formula's as our example one is attempting to recreate the 2D formula as reasonable as possible in 3D space while also including numerous other platforming sub-genres attached to other characters with even puzzle solving including and the other is strongly pushing for build and use the boost mechanic to blast through the levels as fast as possible with minimal level interaction as the boost naturally encourages that type of play. Sure both are platforming and speed based with the same goal, but how they go about that get to the goal structure is significantly different. It doesn't admittedly have to be troublesome, but it still is not particularly cohesive. Though, If you were to ask me, I'd take Sonic's gameplay from Adventure, Heroes, Boost, and Lost World, (maybe even classic 2D) and make those the different sub-genres of platforming for different characters if you wanted to be more cohesive with it in the same game.

Point is though, while all of the above have the same goal, they all approach it differently and that is where a lot of the problems persists. It's not the goal, it's the journey so to say.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Rowl said:

Are you sure? Because for me both gameplay styles in the end have a similar goal. Get to the end with the help of speed and platforming. 

Hardly any Sonic game doesn't fit a definition that vague. It's true that the boost gameplay evolved from the adventure gameplay, but that involved enough changes that I don't think you could fairly call them the same kind of gameplay (and the divisions in the fanbase seem to bear this out). Depending on how detailed/picky you want to be you can even divide things up further; you mentioned Unleashed and Colors, which are both "boost" games, but the former's near-constant supply of boost energy and focus on chaining actions through reaction tests, qtes, and automation to minimize interruptions and finish levels as quickly and fluidly as possible makes for a very different kind of experience than Colors' more limited boost and higher focus on traditional platforming, control-changing powerups, and exploration for red rings and to increase your score, for one example.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want cohesiveness I don't think just putting all the different styles in the same game and tying it all together is the answer. That's just bringing a lack of cohesiveness to the forefront. Fans of the different styles will simply be unsatisfied that they're not getting a full package of that idea. I consider it better to refine a single idea and ruffle a few feathers in the process than to spread both yourself and your audience thin. If what you make is solid, you'll convert some naysayers or hesitant fans in the process, anyway.  This isn't an argument against a lot of content or a good variety of content, but an argument to keep the ground you build that content on consistent.

I consider Sonic Unleashed a good game, but I think a lot more people would consider it a good game if it had stuck it's flag in one of the two completely opposing gameplay systems it shipped with or found some way to reconcile the positives of each, somehow. Both are riddled with issues in content and polish and could use another pass in playtesting. That's time and resources they might have gotten if they didn't have another game to worry about.

I think a sense of cohesion in an individual release is more important than keeping the franchise or the brand consistent, though. Sonic is a long running IP that goes through a lot of different hands, and I honestly think it's better for those hands to get the freedom to experiment with the game mechanics and ideas they're interested in than to lock the franchise down too much. If you look at other long running IPs, this willingness to change and sometimes reinvent the wheel entirely is necessary to keep going. It's good to understand your roots, since every success and failure has something to teach us, but I don't think you should feel tied to them. I don't want the franchise to fall into the rhythm of Generations and Sonic 3 clones forever. 

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really my idea was more along if you still want to have differing gameplay styles in the same game but wanted to keep it within the workings of what the franchise has already done before. Otherwise yeah, I agree with you . Mostly.

While I understand a desire to avoid repetition and stagnation, I never understand why that has to come at the expense of a fundamental design. For example, Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3&K, Chaotix, Mania, and the Advance and Sonic 4 series to an extent all follow the same fundamental design and gameplay idea. Despite that, minor differences in mechanics, playable characters, and in game options (Super Peel Out, Drop Dash, Shield Abilities, Partner Skills) combined with major differences like level layouts, gimmicks (new and combination of old), enemies and bosses, and even level aesthetics drastically change the overall experience with each game making it it's own beast despite having the same core mechanics. Most of these games are beloved because of their individuality while also mostly sticking to the core formula that put the series on the map in the first place and are still praised even decades after their original release for some of them. It's not that there is an absence of change either, but that what is changed is what surrounds the core experience. Even the dreaded CoD franchise for all of its infamy never changes the core gameplay experience of aim and shoot. That isn't to say that it hasn't changed what is built around that core gameplay experience to keep things fresh, but the core is still left intact to build those changes onto. The Sonic games since Adventure have rarely done that without tweaking or completely changing the core gameplay on a regular basis. Combine that with constant art style and tone changes and the only thing that stays consistent is that Sonic is a blue hedgehog that runs fast and fights an egg shaped scientist who builds robots. That defining feature is not enough on its own because otherwise you can say any game that uses a single deck of traditional four suite playing cards is the same and you would have a hard time convincing most people that that alone makes Blackjack, Poker , Gin Rummy, etc. are all derived from the same game. While an obvious exaggeration, it is not an exaggeration without merit considering the state of this fan base. That lack of a cohesive core is particularly distinct with Sonic and needs to be addressed. As you said involving making Unleashed a better more cohesive game by focusing on only one gameplay style, the same applies to a franchise on a whole as well when addressing the main entry games; a solid and cohesive core to build around allows one more time and resources to use in constructing the overall game and avoids wasting time and money building from the ground up every time. It also has the added benefit of your consumer base and fans knowing exactly what the franchise is that they follow and what to expect adding to ease of word of mouth hyping which has been argued to be the most efficient form of advertising for a game.

Anyway, not trying to say that change is bad, but more trying to argue that what is changed is every bit as important as the change itself. If you change the core it isn't really the same thing anymore. I mean just to go back to my fruit analogies, it's like trying to grow an apple tree with a pear seed. Sure you're getting a fruit tree in the end, but sure is not an apple tree.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic Advance is listed among your list of Sonic games that successfully build on the classic formula but Sonic Rush isn't despite the fact that Rush itself is based on a lot of ideas from Sonic Advance 2. Sonic Rush is so different from the classics that rolling is entirely useless and there as a courtesy instead of a core feature. It threw most of the rules of the classic games out, but I think it would be a little ridiculous to say Sonic Rush was a mistake in spite of this since it finds it's own rhythm with what it's trying to do and works well. I'd also argue that Dimps was never exactly great at emulating the classic series and letting them experiment with things they found interesting lead to better games. This is the type of freedom I'm arguing for. 

I agree that there's value in keeping the core the same between games, but with as many franchises that have survived by keeping their "core" over the past few years, there are plenty that stagnate and fail to evolve. There eare even a few that  change their core entirely and come out the other end just fine.  Part of evolution is not being afraid to change your fundamental design in key ways or even not being afraid to flip the table in some cases.  

  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Especially since Lost World's planet Hex is SUPPOSED to look weird for Sonic standards, hence the name. "Lost World". "Lost Hex" We're supposed to be all "What a weird world, made out of hexes? I wonder what more secrets and amazing stuff it's hiding!"
But then Sonic's  regular world also looks like that, so now Lost Hex is just a bunch of meaningless levels with no theme or unique concept at all since Sonic's entire universe operates on the same logic now.

Just like how Hex was supposed to be the "continent of the future" and "made out of illusions" according to some supplemental material. It seems at some point that Sonic Team designed Hex as an actually interesting world with a unique theme to it, an actual "lost world" for us to discover.
But somewhere along the way they went for their usual design philosophy of "Eh, whatever" and now it's just more clutter in the shapeless careless smudge that is Sonic's universe.

I'm always baffled when I then hear stories of Sonic Team having super strict and completely random rules for, say, the American comics to abide too. All pretending they have standards and some some grand design the other teams must obey, when carelessly bouncing from one half baked idea to the next abondonned concept themselves.
I would so love to see the series bible that it allegedly has, and see if there's even one game that follows it.
If there are, it's probably only the games made by secondary teams.


As for the topic, does Sonic Forces get me waiting for the next 3d game? I've been waiting for the next 3d game since Sonic Unleashed.
We got Sonic Mania now, can we stop with the pointless hybrids please?

If Unleashed counts, Rise of Lyric does too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rise of Lyric qualifies as 3d, but not really as a Sonic game in my head. More a beat em up/ Jak and Daxter game that imported Sonic models into it.
So I don't count it like I usually don't count Sonic Runners or Shattered Crystal as 2d Sonic games unless I'm snarky/ thorough for technical reasons.

Altough I suppose you could argue with the current state of the franchise, there is no real identity to what a Sonic game is anymore so Sonic Jump and Lego Dimension's Sonic world are as legit as any other proper game...Okay, fine, you win.
I'll rephrase my statement as "Lego Dimensions was great, can't wait for the next Non-Sonic Team 3d Sonic game. And Non- Sonic Team 2d game for that matter."

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Altough I suppose you could argue with the current state of the franchise, there is no real identity to what a Sonic game is anymore

Reading that I can't help but help think of this little comicstrip, but now it's applied to the entire franchise.

knuckles_identity_crisis_by_gen8hedgehog.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:


Altough I suppose you could argue with the current state of the franchise, there is no real identity to what a Sonic game is anymore

This is a sentiment I hear a lot and it's one that I also happen to agree with a lot. Sonic Team sucks at managing a consistent brand, let alone identity. How many gameplay styles has Sonic had in the main series alone over the years? That's not even counting all his spinoffs, the comics, the shows, etc.

In all likelihood, it is probably too late to change that in the eyes of the general public, but it might be wise to consider keeping Sonic on a tighter leash and not pimping him out to just anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

It threw most of the rules of the classic games out, but I think it would be a little ridiculous to say Sonic Rush was a mistake in spite of this since it finds it's own rhythm with what it's trying to do and works well.

To each their own, but in my book it definitely was a mistake, and a big one at that, as it introduced the whole "boost to win" mentality to the franchise..something that they're still holding onto like dear life itself.
The "rhythm" of those games I found was just hold down the boost when on ground, and keep mashing the trick button when in midair. It got way too tiresome way too quickly and the boost took away the feeling of you're actually in control of the character and that the environment and stage design actually mattered, has a meaning and impact on the gameplay. The game just became a whole lot less engaging in my opinion. It didn't feel like Sonic was traversing through the stage and obstacles and more like he was just a train going on a rail.
I think sacrificing the identity and uniqueness of a franchise just to "keep things fresh and new" is not exactly worth it. Because once that "newness" wears off, you're left with something that's now old hat, and also without any real identity. Which is where we are now, actually..the boost is by now boring, extremely formulaic and rigid, yet the franchise itself lacks any real identity because it jumps all over the place in every other aspect.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something that concerns me more about the boost gameplay is if it even leaves the option open to ever go back.
The "Sonic should be stupidly fast!!!!" mentality is ingrained into people's minds, so going back to a slower gameplay style will likely get a lot of complaints.

I recall Sonic Lost World being disliked for being slow, even tough it doesn't seem slower then, say, the Adventure games.
Which sucks, if we ever want a 3d Sonic game that has any kind of significant platforming ingrained in it's level design, that's impossible to do if the player wants to brainlessly hammer the boost button.
And they'll feel betrayed if the game forces them to slow down to survive, I've seen so many people freak out over Sonic Generations.
And so did Sonic Team, if Sonic Forces' game design is an indication.
Always fascinating to see new players go from complete joy in boosting brainlessly trough Green Hill Zone to completely crumble from the inside when they realise chemical plant zone actually requires you to play the game every now and then.

I suppose 2d fans should be grateful Sonic Rush didn't poison the 2d games like that, I haven't seen anyone complain Sonic Mania is too slow.
Altough I did see people have zero tolerance for water and airplane stages, so even with Mania I notice there's severe impatience for anything that isn't full throttle action.

Either way, far as the 3d games are concerned, I still think Lost World's Parkours system could be a great help in resolving the speed problem, even if Lost World itself never seemed interested.

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care to debate your personal feelings about the boost. They're successful games by tangible metrics. 

And there's always an option to do something else. The idea that a game dev can't ever  change the trajectory of a franchise because they might ruffle a few feathers is kind of ridiculous. Anything will make people in the sonic community upset. There is no point to being overly sensitive to their desires. Just as easily as they picked up the boost in the first place they can do something else. 

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.