The idea that the other characters need to "play like Sonic (with an extra ability)" is narrow-minded and limiting

[E-122-Psi]

On 11/14/2018 at 7:18 AM, Blacklightning said:

Most of Knux's strengths depend on the level design, as should any character really - he can shine in say, Hydrocity, because it gives him a lot of open air to glide without much in the way of obstacles, and although climbing is super slow the time saved can potentially make up for it. But the moment you put him in a more enclosed stage or add overhangs to the top of walls, those perks lose out to Sonic and his drop dash. In fact a core problem I'm seeing with this argument is that it seems to assume that characters benefit from their abilities uniformly, when this kind of stuff tends to only get unmanageable when level design does nothing to rein it in.

I think a problem is that Sonic's only recently had Drop Dash so the comparison is hard to make on that notion. Not to say there aren't moments where it wouldn't be highly pivotal (or even risk being OP) compared to Knuckles and Tails' abilities since Sonic is finally granted an advantage in speed and momentum (eg. chase sections). In linear levels Sonic in fact almost has an unfair advantage in Time Attack and VS multiplayer, though obviously in more exploration heavy levels, it's Knuckles and Tails' abilities that give the upper hand.

I'm waiting for the SEGA AGES release of Sonic 2 to come out (which will allegedly have Drop Dash) and seeing if it has Tails' flying ability as well. It would be interesting to see which abilities grant the upper hand throughout the game. I suspect Tails will have problems keeping up in levels like Emerald Hill, though levels like Casino Night he will be able to skip past a lot of diversions Sonic can't.

[Plasme]

In regards to Tails' flying being broken, I think this addresses a key problem us hardcore Sonic fans forget. The ultimate aim in a Sonic level isn't to pull off crazy tricks and perfect platforming skills, it's to survive and make it to the end of the level. Tails was always intended as the easy mode, hence why he doesn't fight a true final boss in Sonic 3, didn't have a super form in Sonic 3 alone and only has a super form in 3K while Sonic and Knuckles have hyper forms. He's intended to be overpowered, and the game takes away rewards when you play as him. It's similar to games locking away achievements now if you play on very easy modes etc.

I think Tails is a great fit the way he is to be honest. He has a cute design which appeals to younger kids and offers them an easy way to play the game if they are strugglng without just handing them all the rewards. He's the Kirby mode of Sonic. And that's perfectly fine, remember this is a series for kids. When I first played Sonic 3 as a kid, and was getting accustomed to playing games generally, it was Tails who helped me overcome those challenges!

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Plasme said:

In regards to Tails' flying being broken, I think this addresses a key problem us hardcore Sonic fans forget. The ultimate aim in a Sonic level isn't to pull off crazy tricks and perfect platforming skills, it's to survive and make it to the end of the level.

I'd argue the opposite, actually; the first goal of playing a Sonic game is simply to survive to the end, but the ultimate goal is to come back and play it better. It's not bad to have a character that's easier to use for players who are new, not as good, or just aren't looking to put in their full effort at the moment, but i think it's better if the character helps ease players into the game's main mechanics rather than negating them, and if they can continue being fun to use even for more experienced players.

Like, you make a comparison to Kirby, and sure Kirby games are usually fairly easy to just beat. But a lot of Kirby games have extra collectables, stages, and modes that encourage players to go beyond simply surviving the game, to learn more about his controls and abilities and play at a higher skill level. I think the same sort of progression can apply to "easy mode" characters like Tails, where you can find more depth as your skill improves.

[E-122-Psi]

That is probably where Tails' ability works since while it does help you skip parts, it comes at the cost of breaking momentum and speed if just spammed at every last remote obstacle. Sure flying helps you skip parts here and there, but that doesn't really make the game fun, so the flying is best preserved for secret short cuts and easter eggs best made for the ability.

I think this is where SA1 went astray, since most of the time Tails' flying is just used to reach boost rings and other generic ways to make the level quicker and blander. Only the final level really makes use of developed alternative paths and routes where the player still has to use their initiative.

[The 3rd Option]

On 11/28/2018 at 6:52 PM, Diogenes said:

I'd argue the opposite, actually; the first goal of playing a Sonic game is simply to survive to the end, but the ultimate goal is to come back and play it better. It's not bad to have a character that's easier to use for players who are new, not as good, or just aren't looking to put in their full effort at the moment, but i think it's better if the character helps ease players into the game's main mechanics rather than negating them, and if they can continue being fun to use even for more experienced players.

Like, you make a comparison to Kirby, and sure Kirby games are usually fairly easy to just beat. But a lot of Kirby games have extra collectables, stages, and modes that encourage players to go beyond simply surviving the game, to learn more about his controls and abilities and play at a higher skill level. I think the same sort of progression can apply to "easy mode" characters like Tails, where you can find more depth as your skill improves.

Actually, I'd argue that Tails and Sonic contrasted in a different way in S3&K: Tails was "easy levels, hard bosses" mode and Sonic was "hard levels, easy bosses" mode. Tails' smaller hitbox when spin jumping was much smaller, making fighting bosses dificult, but his flight made the levels easy. Sonic's hitbox when spin jumping was bigger, plus the insta-shield to make it even bigger, making bosses much easier, but the lack of flight made platforming difficult.

I gotta admit: that's a pretty good way of meaningfully differentiating characters between one playstyle. It's too bad not even the Advance games nor Mania do this...