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Sonic Team should follow Marvel's example for a COHESIVE UNIVERSE


Marco9966

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On 11/18/2018 at 9:46 AM, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

These are the people that are deluded into thinking the series can be anything remotely like marvel, and that the series is not about sonic primarily, and instead him and his friends as though it's primarily a team oriented franchise like the super friends or something (its not).

Oh, so we're delusional are we? We're delusional for wanting to give a damn about anyone other than Sonic? we're delusional for wanting more and better?

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"Delusional" is a harsh way to put it but if someone thinks that a series that has, for decades, tripped over even the most basic storytelling attempts has the potential to be as successful and medium-shaping as the MCU has been, or that its oft-derided cast is actually full of potential superstars if only they were given a chance...it might not be an inaccurate way to put it.

Obviously Sonic can be better than it has been, but as fans we're inclined to imagine the series in the best possible light, and that makes it easy to overestimate its value.

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13 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

But the story is the whole point of this topic, regarding more than just SA2, which you’re talking way more personally about its gameplay than what my point is about, dude.

And it is a subset of fans. This whole fandom isn’t one huge mass, or even split on two sides given those more ambivalent that aren’t diehard fans, but don’t dislike the game or it’s story. . Nevermind how the reception actually was the first year of the game.

The reception the first year of the game was quite split. The dreamcast release received a lot of praise in general but then the gamecube release only 6 months later received a lot of scorn...which is odd considering the gamecube version is undoubtedly the definitive version of the game. Games dont age in 6 months, that never happens, so obviously something else is afoot here.

In terms of story, no one can argue that SA2's was received well by everyone but a subset of fans. Critics were very positive about the game overall on its debut....but then not so much 6 months later. And then there were a ton of longtime fans who complained about the direction SA2 took the series compared to SA1. This in my opinion was the start of the first major divide among the main series games in my opinion. Some of that had to do with the story, although my point was that I think most people would not have cared about the story at all had the gameplay been excellent all around.

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2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

"Delusional" is a harsh way to put it but if someone thinks that a series that has, for decades, tripped over even the most basic storytelling attempts has the potential to be as successful and medium-shaping as the MCU has been, or that its oft-derided cast is actually full of potential superstars if only they were given a chance...it might not be an inaccurate way to put it.

Obviously Sonic can be better than it has been, but as fans we're inclined to imagine the series in the best possible light, and that makes it easy to overestimate its value.

I don’t expect it to be MCU level, but I don’t appreciate being labeled deluded for wanting better.

And people wonder why I’m so iffy around Classic fans.

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1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

The reception the first year of the game was quite split. The dreamcast release received a lot of praise in general but then the gamecube release only 6 months later received a lot of scorn...which is odd considering the gamecube version is undoubtedly the definitive version of the game. Games dont age in 6 months, that never happens, so obviously something else is afoot here.

Really? Six months? Show me.

Because the game had positive reception for several years, and even the Steam release almost a decade later seems to be showing more positive than negative despite the vocal opposition to the game. So I find that hard to believe.

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In terms of story, no one can argue that SA2's was received well by everyone but a subset of fans. Critics were very positive about the game overall on its debut....but then not so much 6 months later. And then there were a ton of longtime fans who complained about the direction SA2 took the series compared to SA1. This in my opinion was the start of the first major divide among the main series games in my opinion. Some of that had to do with the story, although my point was that I think most people would not have cared about the story at all had the gameplay been excellent all around.

Dude, I was around on this very forum since mid-2004 and lurking on others when the fandom actually split and I know for a fact that the cracks started appearing around Heroes—which was still a success and had moderately decent reception—when they left the dangling plot thread regarding Shadow’s identity crisis and continued when it shattered upon ShTH release when it jumped the shark in its attempt to out-edge SA2. Even with those that didn’t like the direction of SA2, that opposition grew over the course of yearsnot six months, due to the positive reception still lasting as long as it did after SA1. No one’s going to deny that it didn’t suit everyone’s taste, but it’s reception didn’t start gaining such criticism until afterwards in hindsight. The direction it took wasn’t seen as a huge problem until ShTH tried to re-emulate it story and fumbled it the process for being inconsistent and trying to hard to be more “mature” than it really was.

In fact, come their re-release on Gamecube, SA1 had poorer reviews among critics than SA2 while still netting positive view among users. You want to make a point about split reception looking back, then it seems to be that game that divided opinions and aged poorly by comparison.

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44 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Really? Six months? Show me.

Because the game had positive reception for several years, and even the Steam release almost a decade later seems to be showing more positive than negative despite the vocal opposition to the game. So I find that hard to believe. 

I would add that it was one of the best-selling games on the Gamecube, and git quite good scores on Metacritics and Gamerank. Basically even if the game doesn't please everybody, it have been quite a good success both sales-wise and critically-wise. It's no wounder why SEGA miked it for quite a while.

 

And I think that the case SA2 is interesting to talk about continuity, because some of the moment where Sonic got the most continuity was in the aftermath of SA2, with quite a few "SA2.5" (no I'm not talking about , but how they are "smaller" continuation of plot point) : Sonic Heroes re-added Shadow, Sonic Battle tried to continue Shadow's storyline mostly based on the "ultimate lifeform" and "living weapon" part of him, while Shadow the Hedgehog continued the Shadow Android narrative arc… Some element even continued post-2006, with the Ifrit being in the Gerald's diaries (I love how this man was basically a doctor in everything xD).

Fun thing is that 2006 kinda did the same thing (even if I think it mostly failed due to the game) by reusing Silver on other games (but I think that they had no idea of what to do with Silver and Nega xD Though I don't know if the two ST were already fused back at this moment, so it might have been a problem of continuation), and that they tried to "force it" with Forces and the Phantom Ruby arc.

My point of "it's a loose continuity" still stand, though, because it basically connect each times independent stories with some plot point.

 

I think that this way of doing things is interesting, because it makes relevant plot elements based on a somewhat "fresher" game, and is more manageable that trying to strongly tie the whole continuity. The downside is that without a solid framework, the cohesion is less good. But I feel that continuing this way could be a good thing, but if done with a better framework and of course a better writing. But basically this last one stand for every path taken xD

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I suppose it really depends on preference, because I favor stories with continuous arcs connected and built off each other and stick to it internal logic. Some might make completely new stories progressing after the last game like SA2 did with SA1 even tho it has the same theme of revenge, forgiveness/letting go of anger and moving on, but there’s a sense of progression and consistency that suddenly declaring otherwise out of the blue breaks that image.

If that was such, that foundation should have been established from the start instead of changed on a whim come Forces. That would hardly fly anywhere else—it would be like following Harry Potter in the wizarding world from book 1 through 4 before having him in a setting akin to Modern Warfare come the fifth book without any connection whatsoever, as extreme as that example comes off.

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4 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Really? Six months? Show me.

I'm actually surprised you didnt know this... notice that these reviews are in February of 2002....so yeah, only 6 months later.

https://m.ign.com/articles/2002/02/08/sonic-adventure-2-battle

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/sonic-adventure-2-battle-review/1900-2848236/

There are many, many more of these. And if you actually read the criticisms they only have to do with the content of the game, nothing to.do with the port. The game was not seen as terrible (not do I think it is) but it didnt review very strongly either.

But you might not know it if you were too young to remember. I was old enough to remember the reception and conversations surrounding these games (played both at release) and SA2 battle was the start of the decline for the franchise in terms of wider public reception. Heroes followed suit with mediocrity....shadow was the first "bad" game. 06 derailed the train. So the downward momentum was over several years, starting in 2002 with SA2B.

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2 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I'm actually surprised you didnt know this... notice that these reviews are in February of 2002....so yeah, only 6 months later.

https://m.ign.com/articles/2002/02/08/sonic-adventure-2-battle

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/sonic-adventure-2-battle-review/1900-2848236/

That’s because when I look at the overall reviews, the total sum leans more positive in its reception on Metacritic.

Yes, there are plenty of mixed reviews, but even then, if you want to talk wider public  reception SA2 wasn’t something only die-hards hold up to a standard if the user reception is any indicator. That’s not to downplay its flaws—both SA1 and 2 have a number of factors that make them do poorly in the long run, and their reception shows. But SA2 was still seen as decent prior to the mediocrity or outright bad games that became more blatant over time until Unleashed came around. SA1 as well, even though it’s reception among critics come its Gamecube release was a lot more negative by comparison.

Regardless, this isn’t really addressing my point regarding story. We can agree to disagree whether or not SA2’s reception is where the decline started, but none of the more mixed reviews address my point about that at all over the mixed, if not poor standard of the narrative as things are now. And to that I know SA2 wasn’t seen in that bad a light until that gradually split over the course of years.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

That’s because when I look at the overall reviews, the total sum leans more positive in its reception on Metacritic.

Yes, there are plenty of mixed reviews, but even then, if you want to talk wider public  reception SA2 wasn’t something only die-hards hold up to a standard if the user reception is any indicator. That’s not to downplay its flaws—both SA1 and 2 have a number of factors that make them do poorly in the long run, and their reception shows. But SA2 was still seen as decent prior to the mediocrity or outright bad games that became more blatant over time until Unleashed came around. SA1 as well, even though it’s reception among critics come its Gamecube release was a lot more negative by comparison.

Regardless, this isn’t really addressing my point regarding story. We can agree to disagree whether or not SA2’s reception is where the decline started, but none of the more mixed reviews address my point about that at all over the mixed, if not poor standard of the narrative as things are now. And to that I know SA2 wasn’t seen in that bad a light until that gradually split over the course of years.

No I dont disagree. I've never thought of SA2 as a trainwreck and I dont think that is the historical verdict. In recent years it has caught more flak because it has been compared games that made similar mistakes (like unleashed) that were critically killed upon release and thus some of the criticisms are warranted.

In general I dont think narrative tends to be among the main points reviewers make. As I said before, most reviewers stick to gameplay/graphics because gameplay is the true medium between the product and consumer in this industry and graphics sell games; both SA1 and 2 were phenomenal in terms of graphics for the time, which is part of the reason they impressed many on day one. The sonic series has never been known for great stories in the first place. One of the common complaints about the series before and after '06 was how the series had lost it's way and started to feel a lot less "sonic-y" in terms of gameplay and tone. This was a common complaint but very anecdotal (I'd have to dig to find these articles) so I'll just leave it at that for now.

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