The Death Egg

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Humans (other than Robotnik) didn't exist in Sonic's world until after the Death Egg was built and destroyed twice. That's why.

^ Actually, seconded.

Here's a 35,000 word fanfic to flesh out the interpretation, which explains Witchkart too.

[Phos]

It seems much more likely that Robotnik built the structures in Sonic 2. I don't think your going to find many civilians living in a chemical factory, and oil rig, or the giant industrial hazard that is Metropolis Zone.

He probably used the Chaos Emeralds to get the Death Egg into orbit in Sonc 2.

[SuperStingray]

Chemical Plant Zone and Casino Night Zone clearly had cities in the background.

My god, I sound like an idiot today. Sorry, I'm just really tired. Edited August 28, 2009 by SuperStingray

[Sean]

I liked the Death Egg as a mysterious looming object that you didn't ever know exactly what it was going to do, but you fucking knew you had to stop it anyway. I enjoyed those little hints of ambiguity in the ever-silent games of old.

For those who like to speculate what became of the Death Egg after S3&K, I'll throw Sonic Battle into the ring.

[Meta77]

id love it if sega brought back the death egg in one of the newer 3d games.

[Phos]

Chemical Plant Zone and Casino Night Zone clearly had cities in the background.

The city in the background of Chemical Plant Zone could very easily be Metropolis Zone. It's even the same color. In fact, in early builds of the game, the buildings are shorter and pink, which makes me think that they were intended to be Cyber City Zone. The artwork for Cyber City Zone was reused to make "The Machine" for Sonic Spinball, which is a largely purple level. Chemical Plant Zone was originally going to be near the end of the game. As for Casino Night Zone, there is clearly a city in the background, but there is also a body of water or a largely uninhabited area between you and it.

That distribution of lights seems more in line with a body of water, with the lights being channel markers and or buoys. Based on the angle you're seeing them from, you also appear to be rather high.

Though I really think I'm overanalizing it. Robotnik had the Death Egg in orbit because, I'm guessing Naka, decided it would be funny to include a Star Wars reference.

[Carbo]

That, or they simply depended on their convenient superhero Sonic to do the job for them.

Although... Like I said, Sonic 2's story said that Eggman "took over the cities and fatories" to assemble his Death Egg. So it's quite possible that, for a short time, Eggman overpowered the military and prevented them from striking back.

Of course, logically, if Eggman took over this much, it makes sense that he'd have already conquered the world and thusly wouldn't even NEED a Death Egg to threaten the world into surrendering to him with!

Sonic 2's plot makes my head hurt now that I've examined it closely. It's essentially "Eggman took over, so he could build a device for the express purpose of taking over."

You've gotta remember that the original Sonic plot's didn't involve humans though. It was a simple "Eggman wanted to roboticize animals and build an empire". It wasn't until Sonic Adventure in where just about the only anthromorph animals or animals at all for that matter were extremely cut down to only be the main cast and Eggman decided to go all-in into the main cities like Station Square utilizing monster of the week characters like Chaos. I generally dont think the overall consceous would care much about the disappearance of animals since Eggman isn't threatening humanity at first and most of the animals were from places as South Island and West Side Island where the human populace must be genuinely low, which mind you, was the place he wanted to take over. Eggman never came to the point of doing things on a large scale in the old games, such as earth. Until the Death Egg was actually launched that is.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Dr. Mechano]

You've gotta remember that the original Sonic plot's didn't involve humans though.

In the original Japanese story, the games did take place on Earth. And even though humans didn't appear in-game, we can logically assume they existed. Also Witchcart. Everyone ignores Witchcart!

It was a simple "Eggman wanted to roboticize animals and build an empire".

Eggman put animals inside robots and used them as power sources. He never "roboticized" anything. His cartoon/comic counterparts did this all the time, of course, but that's neither here nor there.

But ignoring the logistical aspects of Badniks though, the animals-in-Badniks were not the plan. They were the means to the plan. It's not that Eggman's goal was to throw animals into robots- He did that to create an army, which he would then use to conquer the world.

It wasn't until Sonic Adventure in where just about the only anthromorph animals or animals at all for that matter were extremely cut down to only be the main cast

The only anthropomorphic animals were always the main cast. Do you remember any anthropomorphic animal NPCs in the old games? I sure don't. We had "small animals" which were used in Badniks, sure, and we continue to have those to this day.

But in the old games, NPCs- human or humanized animal- never showed up due to the simplistic nature of the plots. It's not that they didn't exist, it's that they simply didn't need to appear.

and Eggman decided to go all-in into the main cities like Station Square utilizing monster of the week characters like Chaos.

Eggman invaded cities before- Spring Yard Zone, Starlight Zone, and Casino Night Zone come to mind.

I generally dont think the overall consceous would care much about the disappearance of animals since Eggman isn't threatening humanity at first and most of the animals were from South Island where the human populace must be genuinely low,

Yet South Island had at least two modern cities on it, indicating presence of humans and/or humanized animals.

which mind you, was the place he wanted to take over. Eggman never came to the point of doing things on a large scale in the old games, such as earth.

His goal was always Earth. Starting with an island was just, as with putting animals into robots, the means to global domination. Sonic 2 is a good example- "Take over Westside Island. Use resources to build Death Egg. Use Death Egg to conquer world." The planet as a whole was always Eggman's plan.

And to reiterate, humans have always existed in the SoJ story, which took place on Earth. Even the SoA story never outright denies their existence, and their supposed absence seems to be taken from the cartoons and comics rather than any game source material.

[Carbo]

In the original Japanese story, the games did take place on Earth. And even though humans didn't appear in-game, we can logically assume they existed. Also Witchcart. Everyone ignores Witchcart!

The problem with comparing the Japanese and American is that these two write their stories completely differently. I know Sonic originates from Japan but I don't compare it with that for the sole sake that I've never even bothered to check that out and live from what I know that went on in America and Europe. I'm an European so I go with European material, and I couldn't give a lesser shit of the Japans. If we'd follow the logic of Japans all of us would call Vivian in Paper Mario 2 a guy by now.

Eggman put animals inside robots and used them as power sources. He never "roboticized" anything. His cartoon/comic counterparts did this all the time, of course, but that's neither here nor there.

In lack for a better word.

But ignoring the logistical aspects of Badniks though, the animals-in-Badniks were not the plan. They were the means to the plan. It's not that Eggman's goal was to throw animals into robots- He did that to create an army, which he would then use to conquer the world.

I know that wasn't the plan. So you're essentially telling what I already know. I said that he did it for the sake of building his empire/army.

The only anthropomorphic animals were always the main cast. Do you remember any anthropomorphic animal NPCs in the old games? I sure don't. We had "small animals" which were used in Badniks, sure, and we continue to have those to this day.

I said that as a pure generalization in the Sonic-verse so that correction felt unnecessary. I sorta doubt that there wouldn't be more of them, and no we don't have much of them at all to this day. In Sonic Unleashed they were completely absent if you dont count the animals you saw in the Africa stage whatever the name was again.

But in the old games, NPCs- human or humanized animal- never showed up due to the simplistic nature of the plots. It's not that they didn't exist, it's that they simply didn't need to appear.

Part that and part that barely anything in-game took place at an area with general population.

Eggman invaded cities before- Spring Yard Zone, Starlight Zone, and Casino Night Zone come to mind.

Spring Yard Zone is hardly a city so I don't see why you count that. Sure cities were present but that doesn't necessarily mean that the general society knew who he was at that point. Starlight might as well be the first time anyone takes note of it.

Yet South Island had at least two modern cities on it, indicating presence of humans and/or humanized animals.

I find it ironic that you point out that I mentioned anthromorph animals since "there's no other anthromorph animals in the games" yet cite the possible presence of them in cities the same way that I did, and by that logic, who knows? Maybe Starlight and Casino Zone was only ever inhabited by anthromorphs. We'll never know the answer to that.

His goal was always Earth. Starting with an island was just, as with putting animals into robots, the means to global domination. Sonic 2 is a good example- "Take over Westside Island. Use resources to build Death Egg. Use Death Egg to conquer world." The planet as a whole was always Eggman's plan.

I don't think you're reading my post properly because again this is what I'm saying. He never came to the point of managing to take things on the large scale on earth. He started small with only South Island and then took it on West Side instead. It never came to the large scale like in Sonic 3 & K or Sonic Adventure cause Sonic managed to foil his plans before-hand.

And to reiterate, humans have always existed in the SoJ story, which took place on Earth. Even the SoA story never outright denies their existence, and their supposed absence seems to be taken from the cartoons and comics rather than any game source material.

Ofcourse it doesn't and you're missing my post again. I pretty darn well know that they're on the same planet and what-not but the original games doesn't take place anywhere much near humans. Starlight Zone, that's a one-timer and Casino Zone is in the game where Eggman launches the Death Egg so its justifiable. By the end of Sonic 2 is where people should know about the presence of Eggman around the world, but in Sonic 3&K it doesnt matter since it's crashed on Angel Island, Population: Small Animals and a Knucklehead Echidna.

And if you're thinking about it, don't mention Carnival Night Zone since in the light of things, that could easily be called the part of Angel Island that Eggman's dominated since we all know how many times he's had ambitions to build a theme park. That might be the same way with Casino. Eggman's built many cities.

If you want me to go further, I'll bring the Sonic Comic into this where the anthromorph animals and humans live in seperate parts of the world and that they were heavy rivals.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Frog-Tan

[Ducktor Naldush]

The problem with comparing the Japanese and American is that these two write their stories completely differently. I know Sonic originates from Japan but I don't compare it with that for the sole sake that I've never even bothered to check that out and live from what I know that went on in America and Europe. I'm an European so I go with European material, and I couldn't give a lesser shit of the Japans. If we'd follow the logic of Japans all of us would call Vivian in Paper Mario 2 a guy by now.

Uh, that's...Awkward. You see, the italian version clearly says the Vivian was a guy. That's because the italian version is a translation of the japanese one. But I'm going off topic now.

Y'see, I grown up with the games, never reading the manuals. Yeah, sure, I also read the Fleetway italian translations of the comics , but I really hated that Sonic, while loving the Aosth one. So I always thought that there were humans on the planet. Eggman/ Robotnik / Dr Nick ( As I called him, because of the italian Dub of Aosth) is a good character, but I don't think he is able to born from an egg in pure chaos. He must have come from somewhere.

Off Topic Again, Sam Hill.

Alright. The Death Egg. Well, it was.... a giant space fortress that Eggman built because he wanted to threaten mankind with the gigantic bluff of destroy the world, leaving the planet safe in exchange of world domination? It could be possible.

And what about the rest of the world not knowing the Death Egg? Come on, it was a simplistic plot. I never asked that to myself, nor I want to do that now. Simply, I just don't care.

[Dr. Mechano]

And if you're thinking about it, don't mention Carnival Night Zone since in the light of things, that could easily be called the part of Angel Island that Eggman's dominated since we all know how many times he's had ambitions to build a theme park. That might be the same way with Casino. Eggman's built many cities.

If you want me to go further, I'll bring the Sonic Comic into this where the anthromorph animals and humans live in seperate parts of the world and that they were heavy rivals.

Yet Casino Night Zone had emblems of Sonic and Tails all over the place, even triumphantly listing the names "SONIC" all around. I doubt Eggman's casino would praise his nemesis, so the idea that he owned Casino Night Zone seems silly. Carnival Night Zone, I can see that, since Angel Island was supposed to be abandoned except for Knuckles. (Perhaps Eggman gave Knuckles an amusement park when he made his truce with him, as a sign of friendship in fighting off Sonic, who he presented as a villain to our gullible friend.)

Bringing the comics into this debate is irrelevant, because they're another continuity altogether. What humans and animals do in the comics has no bearing on what they do in the games.

EDIT: I suppose you could make a case for Sonic owning Casino Night Zone, since his name and face emblazon the whole place, but that seems unlikely, since Sonic's really not the business type. Hm.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[Arrow]

I just think it, along with going into space in the first place, was a simple tribute to Star Wars. But we all know Sonic fans have trouble accepting inspiration and tributes to things, such as those to DragonBall Z.

As with the rest of this topic...

I think a lot of you are trying to pump logic into something that was probably unconsidered to start with.

[Tornado]

^ 'Cause its fun.

Why would it have to be on Earth? Angel Island's much more convenient considering that it's closer to space and would require less energy to lift off.

Just a minor point, but Angel Island was sitting in the water throughout the events of Sonic 3. It didn't begin floating again until the ending.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Tornado

[SchemingMinor]

Yet Casino Night Zone had emblems of Sonic and Tails all over the place, even triumphantly listing the names "SONIC" all around. I doubt Eggman's casino would praise his nemesis, so the idea that he owned Casino Night Zone seems silly. Carnival Night Zone, I can see that, since Angel Island was supposed to be abandoned except for Knuckles. (Perhaps Eggman gave Knuckles an amusement park when he made his truce with him, as a sign of friendship in fighting off Sonic, who he presented as a villain to our gullible friend.)

Bringing the comics into this debate is irrelevant, because they're another continuity altogether. What humans and animals do in the comics has no bearing on what they do in the games.

EDIT: I suppose you could make a case for Sonic owning Casino Night Zone, since his name and face emblazon the whole place, but that seems unlikely, since Sonic's really not the business type. Hm.

In case, Casino Park in Sonic Heroes where Robotnik tells the Chaotix on mission directives that it is indeed one of Eggman's bases. Casino Park had no lick of Sonic in the background, except for the slot reels where if you got three Robotnik heads in traditional Sonic gambling fashion, you lost rings. Strange.

[Dr. Mechano]

In case, Casino Park in Sonic Heroes where Robotnik tells the Chaotix on mission directives that it is indeed one of Eggman's bases. Casino Park had no lick of Sonic in the background, except for the slot reels where if you got three Robotnik heads in traditional Sonic gambling fashion, you lost rings. Strange.

Well, it's not so strange- If Eggman indeed owned Casino Park, getting all Eggman heads essentially means "Eggman wins all your money!", since the money goes to the casino, which goes to him in turn.

[Arrow]

^ 'Cause its fun.

Haha, then that's fair enough.

[HunterTSF]

Well, it's not so strange- If Eggman indeed owned Casino Park, getting all Eggman heads essentially means "Eggman wins all your money!", since the money goes to the casino, which goes to him in turn.

If we were to go even further with Eggman's fondness of Casino-themed bases, we could bring in Neon Palace from Sonic Rivals 2 - in which he directly informs Shadow that it is indeed one of his bases. Egg Pawns patrol the premises, slot reels similar to that seen in Casino Park were incorporated there, and oddly enough, the entire place was adorned with images of Sonic and co. (excluding Silver, of course).

Oh, I think from what we've seen in the past seventeen years, we can conclude that Eggman <3s creating casino-themed bases. Is he, by any chance the owner of Casinopolis/Have connections with them? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he was - His likeness is seen in the pinball machines' slot reels and he certainly managed to raid the place with ease in Pinball Party.

[Dr. Mechano]

Oh, I think from what we've seen in the past seventeen years, we can conclude that Eggman <3s creating casino-themed bases. Is he, by any chance the owner of Casinopolis/Have connections with them? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he was - His likeness is seen in the pinball machines' slot reels and he certainly managed to raid the place with ease in Pinball Party.

Not Casinopolis.

Sonic Pinball Party says that Eggman took over Casinopolis, so he couldn't have already owned that particular casino... Unless, for whatever reason, Eggman chose to invade his own base. Which I guess would throw off suspicion of him owning it.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Dr. Mechano

[HunterTSF]

Not Casinopolis.

Sonic Pinball Party says that Eggman took over Casinopolis, so he couldn't have already owned that particular casino... Unless, for whatever reason, Eggman chose to invade his own base. Which I guess would throw off suspicion of him owning it.

...Eggsactly! It would explain the unusually large presence of badniks and traps, as well as the rather odd punishment of being dumped through a garbage chute for not succeeding at the significantly unusual assortment of casino games available to play there.

This could be (and is) just all crazy speculation of course. Eggman has been confirmed to have quite a sum of money, and has owned several assorted businesses (Robotnik Corp., MeteorTech) that specialize in robotics (Commercial security robots in Battle, Zero Gravity) or other assorted technologies (Extreme Gear), so I wouldn't be surprised if he owned a high-tech casino or two.

I suppose the same could go for Twinkle Park, as well. Who in their right mind would even go there?

Edited September 2, 2009 by HunterTSF

[-Mark-]

Just a random couple of ideas I'm throwing out here with no real backing, but then again as others have said, there's not much to go on based on the manuals anyway.

Is there any chance that the Death egg was just already there and Eggman tidied it up/ modified it? An old government station or something a la the ARK (which is basically a reuse of the Death Egg plot aspect anyway). Also the possibility that Eggman could have build and launched it under a legitimate pretence before revealing his true intentions, although that seems highly unlikely.

I think the aforementioned 'He already had some form of control over the world' works, or at the very least the world was in too much chaos due to all his robots to be able to stop him from building and launching it. Also has it ever been stated how much time passed between Sonic 1 and 2? If you ask me, the Death Egg seems like the kind of thing that Eggman would have started work on prior to the series even beginning, and probably had it under construction throughout the first game. I'd imagine his activities of putting animals into robots went unnoticed at least for a while before his presence became known.

I'd imagine the Death Egg was launched between Sonic 1 and 2, since it's apparently already there at the start of the game. What I do find odd is how the manuals (at least the English ones, not sure about Japanese- althogh regardless he seems to have a greater presence in Sonic 2 going by level design alone) say that Eggman's managed to take over a considerable portion of the world, despite having been beaten in Sonic 1. The very fact he was able to do that sort of suggests he had other stuff on the go behind the scenes as it is, because if his stuff in Sonic 1 was everything he had, he'd be left with nothing after his defeat.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Mahzes

[eXtaticus]

Was it ever clear as to what Robotnik/Eggman wanted to do with that thing?

Use the power of the dark side? Prove that his armoured battle station was fully operational? Crush the rebel alliance? Have LucasArts take Sega to court for copyright infringement?