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Who wants Silver and Blaze to stay in their worlds

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Sonic Team/SEGA couldn't even have enough faith in Modern Sonic when it came to Sonic Forces. It's a shame because there's no "Tails' Mansion", "Knuckles Echinda Kong Country", "Eggman-Ware Inc." to turn to for spotlights on these other characters. We're too deep in the hole for that.

Adventures in the Sol Dimension.

Fallout 5 starring Future Boy Silver.

Team Chaotix  - Ace Attorney Detectives.

Can't happen. We can't even get our main blue boy right. 

 

Hey we gotta dream don't we? I would enjoy pretty much all the ideas you just said.

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20 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Dreaming is practically all that keeps me going when it comes to this series sometimes.

On the bright side, it's really fun to do. Even better when you've taught yourself to draw. 

(Insert picture here of Tails saying true dat!) indeed drawing helps, and hard as it may be, learning to make your own games could help those dreams. Technically as a amateur indie game dev I could learn to make my own Blaze game... but I have to question myself the point in making big fan work projects when I could instead spend the same time working on my own original games that I could actually call my own and sell... regardless i do think about it often and it does get very enticing. Sometimes I almost wish Sonic was public domain. xD

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I'm pretty sure if you asked Takashi Iizuka, he would say "There is no such thing as 'their world' anymore" because the game canon has been fucked around with so much it's impossible to definitely clarify who/what belongs to where/what timeline.

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5 hours ago, Tarnish said:

I'm pretty sure if you asked Takashi Iizuka, he would say "There is no such thing as 'their world' anymore" because the game canon has been fucked around with so much it's impossible to definitely clarify who/what belongs to where/what timeline.

He was the one who clarified that Blaze is from her dimension, but Dr. Nega is from Silver's Future, so...

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15 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Yes you can. Just say that Silver is from an alternate future. The end.

Thats not solving the issue at hand. That would be washing your hands of it via retcon.

You're not offering a solution anymore than your moving the goalposts.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said. That would be the obvious, safest approach, but with the Silver that we have in the here and now, that is not an option left on the table. He's been a part of the "prime" timeline (stealing archie's lingo now) in both the games and comics, so there is no doubling back to the alternate future angle. Had Sega lead off with that approach, we'd be in a better place right now, but they didn't so we are dealing with the fallout.

 

I'll reiterate that I have yet to see a quick clean solution to the problem at hand. The fact that the first idea that came to your mind is to nuke the canon from orbit and start fresh lends a bit more credence to my feelings.

Furthermore - even if that was an option that was on the table, it only solves half the problem of detailing Silvers ability to time-travel. If you remove his ability to come back and prevent tragedies with future knowledge, you still have to contend with the reactive element in his ability to go back again and fix things he sees happening right in front of him, (like Sonic did to save Elise in 06). Not only do you have to limit him from impacting the plot with historical knowledge, but you have to find a way to handcuff his time travel so that he can't go back an additional week to warn Sonic about getting bodied by Infinite - or set up an Ambush for the Time-Eater at Sonic's B-Day Bash. And you have to do all that for every plot now until forever, in a narrative space thin enough that we can barley get throwaway lines for major side Characters like Knuckles.

 

 

15 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

If Burning Blaze being a quick and easy fix IS a problem then write it so that it isn't. It's not like the Chaos Emeralds being around has ever resulted in a quick and easy fix for the plot of a regular Sonic game.

Blaze is the Guardian of the Sol Emeralds and is more likely to have them in her possession in comparison to anyone and the Chaos Emeralds. It sets a different standard.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Furthermore - even if that was an option that was on the table, it only solves half the problem of detailing Silvers ability to time-travel. If you remove his ability to come back and prevent tragedies with future knowledge, you still have to contend with the reactive element in his ability to go back again and fix things he sees happening right in front of him, (like Sonic did to save Elise in 06). Not only do you have to limit him from impacting the plot with historical knowledge, but you have to find a way to handcuff his time travel so that he can't go back an additional week to warn Sonic about getting bodied by Infinite - or set up an Ambush for the Time-Eater at Sonic's B-Day Bash. And you have to do all that for every plot now until forever, in a narrative space thin enough that we can barley get throwaway lines for major side Characters like Knuckles.

Let's say he can't go back to a time he's already traveled to because meeting himself would destroy existence or something. That's not how it worked in '06 but '06's time travel isn't even self consistent anyway, also it sucks, so who cares about trying to match it. Also Silver's kind of a dumbass so "historical knowledge" and long-term plans aren't his thing.

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Blaze is the Guardian of the Sol Emeralds and is more likely to have them in her possession in comparison to anyone and the Chaos Emeralds. It sets a different standard.

If we're going to assume she can be walking around with 7 emeralds in her pocket at any time that's a problem regardless of any dimensional stuff and probably should be addressed. Have her chuck them into the special stages because only a rare few people can reach them (and even fewer can finish them) or something.

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24 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

 

 

Blaze is the Guardian of the Sol Emeralds and is more likely to have them in her possession in comparison to anyone and the Chaos Emeralds. It sets a different standard.

 

 

Except she has literally had to stop and go find them or otherwise hasn't had access to them in all of the games she's appeared in. It's not a hard thing to write around. There's no "standard" being set because she rarely appears to begin with. 

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Thats not solving the issue at hand. That would be washing your hands of it via retcon.

You're not offering a solution anymore than your moving the goalposts.

I agree with a lot of what you said. That would be the obvious, safest approach, but with the Silver that we have in the here and now, that is not an option left on the table. He's been a part of the "prime" timeline (stealing archie's lingo now) in both the games and comics, so there is no doubling back to the alternate future angle. Had Sega lead off with that approach, we'd be in a better place right now, but they didn't so we are dealing with the fallout.

That is offering a solution. 

This series is already no stranger to retcon and the games have done nothing to insinuate that moving ahead with this idea still wouldn't work. Nothing Silver did in the past of 06 affected his future. When he went back to his future to seal Iblis, nothing had changed. Nothing Silver did in Rivals or Rivals 2 made it absolutely 100% certain that the future he hailed from was directly connected to the present we're currently in. Its just that underwritten.

I have no clue what you mean by moving the goalposts either. 

There is a way to fix this. Take what you have and rework it a bit. Even if it were a retcon of what came before, they've done that plenty of times now. I'm of the opinion that in order to move forward, should we choose to include Silver in anymore stories, we need to establish himself as a character with a clear and concise existence in a way that makes sense.

If they finally have something for Silver that makes sense, they can follow along with that comfortably and not have to worry about future stories no longer making sense.

You act as though its just so airtight and concrete that his future absolutely has to be tied to the current present timeline. It really doesn't. All they'd have to do is come out and explain that he's from an alternate timeline. That wouldn't instantly fix everything. There's other things that need to be addressed, but its a significant start.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I'll reiterate that I have yet to see a quick clean solution to the problem at hand. The fact that the first idea that came to your mind is to nuke the canon from orbit and start fresh lends a bit more credence to my feelings.

That's totally not what I said. I'm talking about revision. Saying that Silver's from an alternate timeline wouldn't nuke the already broken canon. If anything it'd mend it a little. There are things about Silver's current standing that could be explained should we start with that revelation and work forward with it.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Furthermore - even if that was an option that was on the table, it only solves half the problem of detailing Silvers ability to time-travel. If you remove his ability to come back and prevent tragedies with future knowledge, you still have to contend with the reactive element in his ability to go back again and fix things he sees happening right in front of him, (like Sonic did to save Elise in 06). Not only do you have to limit him from impacting the plot with historical knowledge, but you have to find a way to handcuff his time travel so that he can't go back an additional week to warn Sonic about getting bodied by Infinite - or set up an Ambush for the Time-Eater at Sonic's B-Day Bash. And you have to do all that for every plot now until forever, in a narrative space thin enough that we can barley get throwaway lines for major side Characters like Knuckles.

The fact that you're so worried about us having to do that isn't at all a reason why it can't be done. Thats why Time travel has rules. We don't even know how Silver can go to and from the future. Even Ian doesn't know how it works. We could simply fix this by establishing how it works and setting limitations so that these problems become moot.

That's what writing is all about. Edit and revise. 

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Blaze is the Guardian of the Sol Emeralds and is more likely to have them in her possession in comparison to anyone and the Chaos Emeralds. It sets a different standard.

So what? Just write to accomadate that different standard. (If there even is one). The only story with Blaze that I've seen where she starts out using the Sol Emeralds on something was the recent IDW issue and after she did she exhausted herself and was done helping. You're seriously telling me that you can't think of creative ways to handicap or take advantage of that? If so, thats more of an issue with you.

Hell, even when Sonic had all the emeralds at the start of Unleashed, the story was written in a way that made sure he lost. 

This isn't impossible. I'm not understanding why you seem to think it is.

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It doesn't wholly repair Silver, but I have an idea which goes some way to accounting for the problem you might call "persistent magic gem possession".  When all seven Chaos Emeralds, Sol Emeralds, or Time Stones (for Silver, because why not) are used simultaneously to go Super/Burning/time-travelling, then once the effect is complete then the stones scatter again and must be individually recollected.  Thus, Sonic can't just repeatedly use Super Sonic (in plot terms, not gameplay) to erase all trace of Eggman from this world; ditto Blaze and the Sol Emeralds; and Silver only gets one good burst of time-travel and can't spam it to solve his problems.  Every time these gems are used, the user has to make it count.

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7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Let's say he can't go back to a time he's already traveled to because meeting himself would destroy existence or something. That's not how it worked in '06 but '06's time travel isn't even self consistent anyway, also it sucks, so who cares about trying to match it. Also Silver's kind of a dumbass so "historical knowledge" and long-term plans aren't his thing.

 

Does it take much long term foresight to hear about Sonic being killed by Infinite - jump back a week - and warn somebody?

 

7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If we're going to assume she can be walking around with 7 emeralds in her pocket at any time that's a problem regardless of any dimensional stuff and probably should be addressed. Have her chuck them into the special stages because only a rare few people can reach them (and even fewer can finish them) or something.

 

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Except she has literally had to stop and go find them or otherwise hasn't had access to them in all of the games she's appeared in. It's not a hard thing to write around. There's no "standard" being set because she rarely appears to begin with. 

 

The standard was established when the original Rush described her role as Guardian. The game stated that she held watch over them for practically all her life. Much like Knuckles situation with the Master Emerald the Sol Emeralds were under her protection until Eggman came in and stole them from her prior to the original Rush.

In the status quo scenario - Blaze is much more likely to have all the Sol Emeralds in her possession or at the very least within arms reach. Have the Sol emeralds even even been presented in Special Zones in the games? I think only the Choas Emeralds have that distinction.

 

5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

That is offering a solution. 

 

No its not.

A solution would work within the established rules set before us. A retcon is a tacit admission of failure via sweeping that existing rule set under the rug and inserting something that works better.

If I asked you to fix a busted jalopy, and you instead chose to replace it with another car all-togther - I'm not going to say you fixed the jalopy. That's what I mean by moving the goalposts. You addressed the problem by changing the rules proceeding it after the fact. You didn't accomplish the original goal, you just changed the problem around to make a viable solution something more palatable.

 

Would a retcon work? Of course. Technically speaking a retcon can fix any problem. Thats kind of the point. But it is also a testament to how much of a narrative corner Silver is currently written into if it has come down to requiring a canon altering insert to have his time travel make any kind of sense.

 

5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Nothing Silver did in the past of 06 affected his future. When he went back to his future to seal Iblis, nothing had changed. Nothing Silver did in Rivals or Rivals 2 made it absolutely 100% certain that the future he hailed from was directly connected to the present we're currently in. Its just that underwritten.

Solaris existed in all timelines at all times. 06 explicitly stated that mucking things up in on point of time wouldn't have any effect on other parts of the timestream. Iblis as a part of Solaris would likely have that same effect - hence why he had to deal with Iblis in the future.

Silver came back in Rivals 2 specifically stating his future was destroyed by the Ifrit.

In the Forces tie-in comic, Silver specifically came back to help deal with the impending calamity that doomed his future.

Every-time Silver comes back with dire warnings on how to save his future, its tied to the current plague befalling the heroes. Specific, detailed information that lead him to come back to a specific point in time. And all that is before we deep dive off of the constant biographies and descriptions of Silver that go out of their way to label him as from Sonic's future (and even date it approx 200 years). All that is before we consider that Sonic ended up in Silver's time when he was booted through a time machine in 06. When Omega went into stasis for 200 years - no surprises here - he ended up in Silver's world. 

There is way more evidence pointing to Silver's world being the definitive and unquestioned future of Sonic's than any argument you could build against it.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Does it take much long term foresight to hear about Sonic being killed by Infinite - jump back a week - and warn somebody?

Combine it with my earlier idea, that he can only jump to specific points that are "coincidentally" around the start of a game. He can jump into a conflict at only one particular point, and he can't "reuse" that point because timey bullshit says no.

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The standard was established when the original Rush described her role as Guardian. The game stated that she held watch over them for practically all her life. Much like Knuckles situation with the Master Emerald the Sol Emeralds were under her protection until Eggman came in and stole them from her prior to the original Rush.

In the status quo scenario - Blaze is much more likely to have all the Sol Emeralds in her possession or at the very least within arms reach. Have the Sol emeralds even even been presented in Special Zones in the games? I think only the Choas Emeralds have that distinction.

I'm suggesting that they change things to make them less dumb. If you're looking for a solution that doesn't involve changing anything, you aren't actually looking for a solution.

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

No its not.

A solution would work within the established rules set before us. A retcon is a tacit admission of failure via sweeping that existing rule set under the rug and inserting something that works better.

If I asked you to fix a busted jalopy, and you instead chose to replace it with another car all-togther - I'm not going to say you fixed the jalopy.

No, but they sure as hell fixed the problem of you not having a car to drive.

The idea that the only valid solutions can come from working within established canon is ultimately arbitrary. Sometimes a thing gets fucked up enough that it can't reasonably be fixed, and the solution to that is not to say "well we can't just get rid of it!" and let it continue on being broken.

And it's not as if this series' canon is worth shit at this point anyway even aside from these specific issues.

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8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Combine it with my earlier idea, that he can only jump to specific points that are "coincidentally" around the start of a game. He can jump into a conflict at only one particular point, and he can't "reuse" that point because timey bullshit says no.

Time is such a long burn that limiting him becomes the problem. If timey BS says no about reusing points, then you have to define a "point". Is it a week? a month? a year?

 

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm suggesting that they change things to make them less dumb. If you're looking for a solution that doesn't involve changing anything, you aren't actually looking for a solution.

I'm looking for a solution that fits within the current narrative. I'm not here to argue that Silver or Blaze can't be put into a situation that works, I'm simply stating that by going full tilt into changes and retcons, you are essentially waiving the white flag on their current narrative as it stands.

 

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, but they sure as hell fixed the problem of you not having a car to drive.

The idea that the only valid solutions can come from working within established canon is ultimately arbitrary. Sometimes a thing gets fucked up enough that it can't reasonably be fixed, and the solution to that is not to say "well we can't just get rid of it!" and let it continue on being broken.

Sure I'll have a care to drive, but lets not mistake that for fixing the original car.

My entire argument is look how broken this car is - how do you expect them to fix it, and every single response has involved in some way shape or form of getting a new car. If the canon is so far FUBAR'd that it can't be fixed then fine, burn it down. I just want to point out from a narrative standpoint how handcuffed S. Team is with the stais quo. Its a self-inflicted wound, but its there.

 

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And it's not as if this series' canon is worth shit at this point anyway even aside from these specific issues.

Its a clusterF at this point - but our first solution shouldn't always be to insert a new reality when the one we have isn't agreeable. That leads to its own storytelling problems. One of the very few things this franchise has going for it is the investment a lot of people have in the characters. Constant reboots and revisions endanger that.

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5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Time is such a long burn that limiting him becomes the problem. If timey BS says no about reusing points, then you have to define a "point". Is it a week? a month? a year?

A game.

He jumps in around the start of the game, he sticks around in linear time until the end of it, and then he goes back home. Time's got a little hole in it right after Infinite kicks Sonic's ass; Silver wiggles his way through to try to help, and then no more time bullshit for him or anyone until he's ready to leave.

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I'm looking for a solution that fits within the current narrative. I'm not here to argue that Silver or Blaze can't be put into a situation that works, I'm simply stating that by going full tilt into changes and retcons, you are essentially waiving the white flag on their current narrative as it stands.

You're damn right I am. I would gladly burn this entire motherfucker of a series to the ground if I had any confidence that the people responsible for rebuilding it knew what they were doing.

5 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Its a clusterF at this point - but our first solution shouldn't always be to insert a new reality when the one we have isn't agreeable.

Of course not. But you just got done saying yourself that it's basically fucked, and your "solution" seems to be to just ignore it because trying anything will make it worse. So, yeah, sounds like it's time to burn it down and start over, if we're ever going to be expected to give the slightest of shits about stories in Sonic games.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

You're damn right I am. I would gladly burn this entire motherfucker of a series to the ground if I had any confidence that the people responsible for rebuilding it knew what they were doing.

Of course not. But you just got done saying yourself that it's basically fucked, and your "solution" seems to be to just ignore it because trying anything will make it worse. So, yeah, sounds like it's time to burn it down and start over, if we're ever going to be expected to give the slightest of shits about stories in Sonic games.

lol

We are basically on the same page here. I'm just saying Sonic Team ignores the narrative as a practice because its a clusterfuck and a solution to the problem isn't available as presented - and your saying they shouldn't ignore it and go with he nuclear option to fix it - because it is a clusterfuck.

 

So. New Car it is.

I like Mustangs.

 

 

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You all are looking at these characters and this series with such a strict adherence to the lore that nobody who actually works on the series has to begin with. They will bend the rules to make things work, as they should.

They understand the characters's appeal doesn't come from the specifics of the laws of the universe, but their unique designs, personalities and powers. These are the parts that need to be adhered to, not consistency with the time stream or what the chaos emeralds do. It's okay to play it fast and loose with things like that because it's not what people who could potentially get into this character driven platformer series care about to begin with. Only the most hardcore of hardcore fans care about shit like that, and the fact that we still come here to post every day means that they wouldn't have that big of an issue keeping us around if it really came down to it. 

Bending the consistency of the universe to get the cool characters where you want them to be is more then fine. Especially if it gets those characters in a better spot to perform. You all are drastically overthinking this for the sake of getting to the "burn it down" button. 

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

No its not.

A solution would work within the established rules set before us. A retcon is a tacit admission of failure via sweeping that existing rule set under the rug and inserting something that works better.

Yes, it is.

First of all, we're not looking at this matter in the same way at all. You're under the impression that I even want to retcon anything. Perhaps this was due to me not clarifying myself a bit more earlier but you're assuming the wrong things. My intention isn't to retcon or "nuke" all of what was established before. I want to establish this new idea as the actuality because I don't believe there actually is a current "existing rule".

The only person whose word we have to go on about whether or not Silver is from specifically this timeline's future is Silver himself. I'm proposing that we reveal that Silver was wrong. Just like in DBZ. When Trunks returned to the past, he introduced himself as being "From the Future" like Silver currently does. He didn't find out until later that this actually wasn't the case. He was from a future but not the one connected to the version of the past he ended up in.

I'm proposing we make this a revelation, not a retcon. 

Despite what you're asserting here, there is no existing rule. It just doesn't exist.  They haven't confirmed anything concrete about how Silver's future works. They haven't established how he's able to move to and fro from his future to Sonic's past. We don't know. I'm proposing that we finally reveal the how's and why's and move forward with that new knowledge.

Keeping things like it is will just continue to confuse people. It's not better this way. The amount of people asking "Why is Silver here?" when they saw him show up in Forces is proof of that. And this idea that we should just leave it as it is for no reason when we could just establish something that makes sense and keep that as the standard is silly to me.

The only game I even think we would need to outright retcon is Sonic 06 and that game erased itself from the timeline anyway. Blaze being from Silver's future makes no sense and fits in with nothing no matter what you do. I'd say that's an impossible fix and something worthy of a retcon. 

And even if I DID agree that we should retcon everything established about Silver, it'd still make sure that going forward there'd be no confusion and the problem wouldn't repeat itself. 

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

If I asked you to fix a busted jalopy, and you instead chose to replace it with another car all-togther - I'm not going to say you fixed the jalopy. That's what I mean by moving the goalposts. You addressed the problem by changing the rules proceeding it after the fact. You didn't accomplish the original goal, you just changed the problem around to make a viable solution something more palatable.

 I seriously have no clue what you're talking about. I really don't. 

Maybe you and I have different goals in mind or something because my intention is to find a way to make Silver's time travel nonsense make sense within Sonic's world and establish an actual rule about him that makes it so that he can continue to function within the story moving forward. I also have the intention of using this reveal to plug up some of the plot-holes left behind from us thinking he was originally connected to Sonic's timeline. And I think this would go a long way towards fixing that.

Perhaps you could tell me what this revelation wouldn't fix and then we can figure out how to fix the rest of it together?

Because it would go towards explaining a lot for me. 

The only game I have any intention of straight up ignoring is Sonic 06 to be honest. I don't really see why anyone would feel beholden to making sure the events of that game remained in tact. So much about it doesn't make sense on the face of it that it'd be better off if they just came out and said that it was an elseworld's story. 

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Would a retcon work? Of course. Technically speaking a retcon can fix any problem. Thats kind of the point. But it is also a testament to how much of a narrative corner Silver is currently written into if it has come down to requiring a canon altering insert to have his time travel make any kind of sense.

I should have shot down your use of the word "retcon" the instant you brought it up instead of agreeing that if they did one, it wouldn't matter. A retcon isn't even what I'm considering this to be.

However, in defense of a retcon (which I don't consider my idea to be, mind you) it wouldn't matter anyway. Every game that comes out now retcons something and it's usually for the worst. Sonic's world is all animals one game. Then it has humans another. Classic Sonic is in the past one game. Then he's from an alternate dimension another. This has to stop.

If they were to retcon something, they need to do it in a way that makes the most sense and actually benefits the series. If Silver's from an alternate future, whether or not it would fix the plotholes of the previous games, it would damn sure make it a lot harder for these plot-holes to come back in the later ones. Either way, I'm for the idea. 

If the only thing you're worried about is the continuity of 06, Rivals, Rivals 2, Generations, and Forces then I'd say that's a bit silly since those games weren't even worried about that within themselves. Every one of those games has something in it that contradicts what was established before. I'd love to revise those as well.

I think there's ways to fix the things that don't make sense about those games too as a matter of fact. Reveal something we didn't know before that keeps them within the continuity as best you can. Reveal that Eggman Nega actually isn't from the future OR Blaze's dimension but a strange being who can shape-shift and travel through time and space and that he's been lying to everyone this whole time so he could observe them or something. Who cares? It'd make the characters realize they were all wrong about Nega's origin and make the "is he a descendant or from another dimension?" argument go away. It sounds stupid, sure, but this series does a lot of stupid things. 

At this point the only way to fix something dumb like that is to write around it with another dumb thing and move on. Then try your best to not let it happen again. 

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Solaris existed in all timelines at all times. 06 explicitly stated that mucking things up in on point of time wouldn't have any effect on other parts of the timestream. Iblis as a part of Solaris would likely have that same effect - hence why he had to deal with Iblis in the future.

Okay, but that's not confirmation that Silver and Sonic's timelines are connected. If Solaris exists in ALL timelines, then it stands to reason he would also exist in an alternate one. The game never said he couldn't. It's mostly still just Silver's word we have to go off of and he's definitely no time travel expert.

It doesn't matter since Solaris and the events of 06 don't exist anymore. Plus, again, what 06 established was contradicted multiple times within its own narrative anyway.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Silver came back in Rivals 2 specifically stating his future was destroyed by the Ifrit.

Right. Just like Trunks came back to the past specifically stating that his future was destroyed by the Androids. And when he went to the alternate past, the Androids were still there. They had different personalities but they were still there.

When Silver goes to Sonic's past, the Ifrit would still be there. 

And what happens at the end of Rivals 2? He returns to the future, hoping that it's fixed right? We don't get to see if it is though. We do know that he returns from the future again, now saying that Eggman having taken over the world is what did it!

So what can we get from this? That Silver's an idiot and he's guessing because the future is in ruins and information is scarce. He doesn't know what caused his future to turn to ruin. His mission could be that he's constantly returning to the past to find out what it is that did it. He also might find out later that his efforts to do so are a bit askew because being from an alternate timeline, what he does in the past doesn't affect his future. 

So many avenues open up all of a sudden. There's excuses for Silver to do research both in the future and Sonic's past to find out more stuff. And then there's no need to worry about time travel hiccups. We can keep going from there too. There's a lot to brainstorm here, all without retconning everything.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

In the Forces tie-in comic, Silver specifically came back to help deal with the impending calamity that doomed his future.Every-time Silver comes back with dire warnings on how to save his future, its tied to the current plague befalling the heroes. Specific, detailed information that lead him to come back to a specific point in time. And all that is before we deep dive off of the constant biographies and descriptions of Silver that go out of their way to label him as from Sonic's future (and even date it approx 200 years).

All that is before we consider that Sonic ended up in Silver's time when he was booted through a time machine in 06. When Omega went into stasis for 200 years - no surprises here - he ended up in Silver's world. 

There is way more evidence pointing to Silver's world being the definitive and unquestioned future of Sonic's than any argument you could build against it.

No there isn't. Sorry but that's just not true. 

The situations in Sonic's past being similar is not proof that they played out the same in Silver's timeline. It's not proof that they're connected. The fact that Silver keeps coming back to talk about the next calamity that happens is actually more proof that he doesn't know what caused his future to turn to ruin. These events happened but they haven't been confirmed to play out the same way. 

Sonic's past and Silver's future both had a Sonic and an Eggman at one point but their fates are probably different.

Sonic's past and Silver's future both had a time when Eggman tried to take over the world but the outcome was probably different.

Sonic's past and Silver's future both had a time when Eggman Nega came to release the Ifrit but the outcome was probably different.

Omega goes into stasis in Sonic's past. The events could still play out differently though. In Silver's alternate future, he's still in stasis and is woken up to help fight with Shadow. In Sonic's actual future, he could have been destroyed before he was woken up. Eggman's time-machine sends them to Silver's alternate future, not Sonic's actual future. Just say that. I still think we should just ignore 06 all together but again, there's nothing here that makes it concrete. 

As for biographies and descriptions, those can say whatever they like before a reveal is made. It's going to have the prevailing theory before something is confirmed regardless. 

The point is, things are going to be similar in the past and somethings are going to be different. Same goes for the two futures.

 

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29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You all are looking at these characters and this series with such a strict adherence to the lore that nobody who actually works on the series has to begin with. They will bend the rules to make things work, as they should.

I mean I'm not saying all this because I think the general gaming public seriously cares about the exact time travel framework that this series uses. But the series is, by all appearances, going to continue trying to tell stories, and I think they're more likely to be a positive addition to the games if they can clean things up and try to actually properly use what they have.

It doesn't have to be a big huge detailed epic. Shouldn't be, even. But they should try to be consistent and have an actual point and use the characters and other elements of the series to make/support that point.

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

I mean I'm not saying all this because I think the general gaming public seriously cares about the exact time travel framework that this series uses. But the series is, by all appearances, going to continue trying to tell stories, and I think they're more likely to be a positive addition to the games if they can clean things up and try to actually properly use what they have.

It doesn't have to be a big huge detailed epic. Shouldn't be, even. But they should try to be consistent and have an actual point and use the characters and other elements of the series to make/support that point.

I agree with all of that and wouldn't mind making some changes and using characters more appropriately myself.

But I think we can agree that the last thing that should be a factor in who gets used should be the logistics of the magic in the Sonic universe or something like that. That's backwards thinking from the jump IMO. Most of it is shit developed for excuse plots. 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You all are looking at these characters and this series with such a strict adherence to the lore that nobody who actually works on the series has to begin with. They will bend the rules to make things work, as they should.

They understand the characters's appeal doesn't come from the specifics of the laws of the universe, but their unique designs, personalities and powers. These are the parts that need to be adhered to, not consistency with the time stream or what the chaos emeralds do. It's okay to play it fast and loose with things like that because it's not what people who could potentially get into this character driven platformer series care about to begin with. Only the most hardcore of hardcore fans care about shit like that, and the fact that we still come here to post every day means that they wouldn't have that big of an issue keeping us around if it really came down to it. 

Bending the consistency of the universe to get the cool characters where you want them to be is more then fine. Especially if it gets those characters in a better spot to perform. You all are drastically overthinking this for the sake of getting to the "burn it down" button. 

I don't believe that my adherence to the lore is all that strict and I don't think I'm overthinking anything personally. Honestly, I don't. 

I just want them to establish something that makes sense and for them to not openly contradict things they've already set-up. I feel like that's a fair and basic thing to expect them to do. 

The only reason I'm arguing so hard is because I feel it's easy to do. Confirming that Silver's from an alternate future would go a long way towards fixing a lot of things that previously didn't make sense and make it so that we also didn't have to worry about future time travel nonsense also not making sense. It's an idea in support of making things less complicated. The only reason my posts are so long is because I'm explaining the benefits it could have and I feel there are a lot of them. That's it.

Though, to be honest, I'm having trouble thinking of an example of where I'd prefer them bending the consistency of the universe just to get characters in. Simply providing a solid explanation with a meager round of exposition could do that. The consistency doesn't need to be bent. They just need to establish a few things, dust off their hands, and say "There. It's done. Now they can show up whenever and it isn't an issue."

 

 

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To answer the question at hand , yes they should stay in their world

However more people should go visit their worlds, silver's changing future and blaze's world still seem largely undefined and it would be interesting if character ( not just sonic ) actually went there and did stuff and maybe give their perspective on things. Maybe establish new characters in their world who are recurring, make sonic and crew traveling to worlds a more normal thing considering the humanworld/animalworld is now concrete

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18 hours ago, DabigRG said:

He was the one who clarified that Blaze is from her dimension, but Dr. Nega is from Silver's Future, so...

Wait, what? Wasn't it established in Rush that Blaze and Eggman Nega are both from a parallel/alternate dimension? They messed with that as well? Jesus Effin Christ..By the way, when did he say that? Because back in 2011 we all believed that classic Sonic is just Sonic from the past, until that idea got thrown out the window for an alternate dimension counterpart, even tho they reference Generations actually happening in Forces..anyway, point being that Iizuka constantly changes his mind about things. So today, he might tell you something completely different regarding Blaze and Silver.

Also, if Silver's future still exists (even tho the whole plot of Sonic 2006 is to make sure that never happens, but apparently it does anyway since Crisis City and Silver was in Generations), that still doesn't explain why the hell is Silver just with Sonic and co. in Forces. He's just there and nobody ever questions that..(Can't wait for the comments saying Sonic 2006 isn't canon although it's canon enough to use stages and characters from it in other games.)

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2 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Wait, what? Wasn't it established in Rush that Blaze and Eggman Nega are both from a parallel/alternate dimension? They messed with that as well? Jesus Effin Christ..By the way, when did he say that? Because back in 2011 we all believed that classic Sonic is just Sonic from the past, until that idea got thrown out the window for an alternate dimension counterpart, even tho they reference Generations actually happening in Forces..anyway, point being that Iizuka constantly changes his mind about things. So today, he might tell you something completely different regarding Blaze and Silver.

Also, if Silver's future still exists (even tho the whole plot of Sonic 2006 is to make sure that never happens, but apparently it does anyway since Crisis City and Silver was in Generations), that still doesn't explain why the hell is Silver just with Sonic and co. in Forces. He's just there and nobody ever questions that..(Can't wait for the comments saying Sonic 2006 isn't canon although it's canon enough to use stages and characters from it in other games.)

Did you play or observe the story of Sonic Rivals and Sonic Rivals 2? The first Rivals was released right after 06 and that's where the whole Eggman Nega is from the future thing comes in. It's also where Sonic and Silver first meet FOR REALZ this time.

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Did you play or observe the story of Sonic Rivals and Sonic Rivals 2? The first Rivals was released right after 06 and that's where the whole Eggman Nega is from the future thing comes in. It's also where Sonic and Silver first meet FOR REALZ this time.

Nope, haven't played them because A: I never had a PSP, B: those games never really captured my interest to begin with. Good to know that canon meddling is nothing new for the franchise tho.

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