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Marco9966

Who wants Silver and Blaze to stay in their worlds

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Silver and Blaze stick around Sonic's world too much these days, they dont help much for the story, I prefer if we focus more on the characters of Sonic's world and the new characters like Tangle and Whisper.

Silver and Blaze must go back, (and Knuckles must stay on Angel Island).

Who agrees?

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

You mean in terms of the games or the comics?

 

Cause if the latter, then no.

In the comics, Silver will have to get to his future at one point, and then return again because his future is destroyed again because fans want him.

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Just now, Marco9966 said:

Silver will have to get to his future at one point, and then return again because his future is destroyed again because fans want him.

Unless they manage to find time to give him his own stories there again and maybe bring characters like Gold over, then no he won't.

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Well, you'll just have to build a wall around Sonic's World, then. (yes it was an easy one)

TBH, as they are "fan-favourite", it makes sense to put them in games and stuff, as they can't really make a ton of side-games/side-project about them. And character-wise, they are interesting to use. Basically it's more a question of how to use them, and when use them. Basically I think that the way to go would be to separate high-scope game/stories and smaller-scope stories, and use characters according to "where" the story happens. Or simply improve why the character can go when they want in other worlds.

And Tangle and Whisper aren't relevant to the games, but only to the comic… And as they already have bonded with those character (and it was pretty appreciated in the fanbase), it would be a bit sad to loose that in the comic-book. 😛

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Silver and Blaze stick around Sonic's world too much these days

The last time Blaze was actually in a Main Series Title was Sonic Generations. That was 7 years ago.

Even though Silver was in Forces, he also hadn't appeared in a main series title since Generations.

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

they dont help much for the story

1. Silver coming to the past in Forces helped the Avatar find the Phantom Ruby Prototype

2. As I already mentioned they have not appeared in many Mainline stories since Generations. Silver has appeared more often than Blaze and that's only Rivals 1 and 2. Everywhere else is either a minigame collection (Secret Rings and the Mario & Sonic Games), racing games (Riders and TSR), and Mobile Games (Jump, Dash, Runners, Force Speed Battle, etc)

3. You could say that for any character now, including Tails

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

I prefer if we focus more on the characters of Sonic's world

We've only seen a select amount of Blaze's World and we have no idea if Silver has a "Good Future" to go home to anymore.

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

and new characters like Tangle and Whisper.

Or we could balance the spotlight so that older characters don't have to go on vacation every time new characters are introduced.

Also, we have to break a few traditions regarding newer characters...

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Silver and Blaze must go back

Only if we can go with them and learn more about their timelines, dimensions, and origins.

1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Knuckles must stay on Angel Island

That's a whole nother topic for another day.

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1 hour ago, Marco9966 said:

Silver and Blaze stick around Sonic's world too much these days, they dont help much for the story, I prefer if we focus more on the characters of Sonic's world and the new characters like Tangle and Whisper

The whole foundation of the question is busted. If the bar your setting for their future involvement is tied to how much they actually help in the story - then not only would Silver and Blaze be on the lesser offensive side of that spectrum - but at the same time you could wield that argument against almost every character all the way up to Tails.  When is the last time Vector contributed anything of significance to a main series game? You'd have to go all the way back to Heroes or Shth. Jesus.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Silver and Blaze stick around Sonic's world too much these days

We haven't even seen Blaze in the games since Sonic Generations, and even then she was more or less a background object. The same goes for Silver up until Sonic Forces, so it's not like they're shoving Sonic out of the spotlight. If anything, one could make the argument that characters outside of Sonic don't get enough focus.

 

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

they dont help much for the story

Think of the past few games: Omit Tails completely, omit Amy and Knuckles, everyone except for Sonic and Eggman. (And the Deadly Six if you're looking at Lost World), you don't need anyone else at all because we're more or less back to the Sonic vs. Eggman plots again. That's not to mention how shallow the plots for Sonic have been for at least the past decade, anyway.

 

3 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

I prefer if we focus more on the characters of Sonic's world and the new characters like Tangle and Whisper.

I'm actually not sure what your argument is here? What makes you so sure that your complaints would be absolved by just changing the names in the script?

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10 minutes ago, DreamSaturn said:

Think of the past few games: Omit Tails completely, omit Amy and Knuckles, everyone except for Sonic and Eggman. (And the Deadly Six if you're looking at Lost World), you don't need anyone else at all because we're more or less back to the Sonic vs. Eggman plots again. That's not to mention how shallow the plots for Sonic have been for at least the past decade, anyway.

To be fair, Lost World practically ran off the Deadly Six's involvement.

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3 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

Only if we can go with them and learn more about their timelines, dimensions

Yeah that would be cool, their world is so underused and underdevrlopped. I'd like to see a 3D game or a comic arc where Sonic goes to Blazes dimension to help her.

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I think their continuing presence in the games would be far more understood and accepted if there was a logical narrative justification for their presence. I do think that if Silver was going to be continually brought back into the series, they should’ve just had him permanently remaining in the present after Sonic 06 or Rivals, even just thrown in a little cutscene/dialogue at the end of those games to explain that, although granted his popularity couldn’t be assessed at that point. Heck, even the ending of Generations would’ve been a fairly decent time to imply that, given he’s with Sonic and Co. in the final scene.

I mean Silver doesn’t actually have any inherent time travel abilities himself, right? Every instance of it has been through an external force e.g: Mephiles and The Time Eater (granted Rivals doesn’t really bother with a reason either) and in the Forces prequel comic he simply says he “came back”. One could argue he once again learned to use the Emeralds’ time travelling abilities I suppose, but that’s veering into head-canon territory.

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2 minutes ago, Gotta Go Rational said:

I mean Silver doesn’t actually have any inherent time travel abilities himself, right? Every instance of it has been through an external force e.g: Mephiles and The Time Eater (granted Rivals doesn’t really bother with a reason either) and in the Forces prequel comic he simply says he “came back”. One could argue he once again learned to use the Emeralds’ time travelling abilities I suppose, but that’s veering into head-canon territory.

Probably the same way Dr. Nega got there if not that.

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I think I'd be comfortable with the games just not forgetting their origins.  If the writers think they have a good use for Blaze and Silver (or anyone) - as opposed to just being Sonic's cheerleader again - then by all means, use them; just take at least a moment to write one line to explain how they got here.  Better yet would be if they were actually main characters and we could have a game about their interesting and largely unexplored backgrounds and setting, though; but I can see why that's not exactly a priority.

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My criticisms against them has always been about the trials that come with comfortably including them within a game's narrative. I don't hate either of them and I don't take a firm stance of "Go away and never come back" but if you're going to bother establishing these characters as being intrinsically tied to a story element that makes it hard or confusing for them to show up than you're going to need to, at least, address that everytime they do make an appearance. 

That's the bare minimum of what they should do. However, because they're popular, they just throw them in whenever, wherever and don't really give a shit. And if the reaction to Blaze not being in Forces is any indication, there's probably a lot of people out there that don't care that much for an explanation so long as she shows up. They probably care but if she's there then "Eh. Let it slide." Which I get. I take what I can get when I'm a fan of a character too but it's hard not being annoyed by it. Same probably goes for Silver, to a lesser extent.

It's basically a worse version of what they did with Knuckles. At least he lives in the same dimension and timeline as Sonic and the others so his physical presence is, at most, probable.

It's just a matter of someone over there being super lazy and not caring enough to at least drop a mundane line of dialogue explaining it. Goddamn Silver's reason for being in Forces had to be dulled out in supplementary material that not everyone read before buying the game. 

Just stop being so lazy Sonic Team or whoever's fault it is. Galactus maybe. Nosferatu. Whoever. 

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37 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

It's just a matter of someone over there being super lazy and not caring enough to at least drop a mundane line of dialogue explaining it. Goddamn Silver's reason for being in Forces had to be dulled out in supplementary material that not everyone read before buying the game. 

Just stop being so lazy Sonic Team or whoever's fault it is. Galactus maybe. Nosferatu. Whoever. 

I don't think its something we can chalk up to being lazy or not caring... at least not in Silver's case.

Its just that - particularly from a videogame standpoint - there really isn't a way that you can establish a viable, recurring and plausible time travel insert that will satisfy the masses without creating more problems than it fixes. Creating a stable time-travel item/ability/whatever for Silver to utilize to move back and forth at will creates more plot holes than the one Sonic Team is willing to sit on by flat out ignoring it. The second you hand Silver the ability to rip open a portal and come back to a specific point in time, then he instantly breaks every plot past present in future. You have to start asking why he didn't come back yesterday and prevent the disaster currently on deck. You have to ask why he didn't go back and find the Phantom Ruby before Eggman. One mundane line of dialogue could kick a hornets nest that would have been otherwise just out of reach.

By ignoring the logistics of how Silver moves through time, those questions sit on the sidelines rather than hovering over the narrative. Blaze, being in a different dimension is admittedly less dire, but similar in scope. By not telling us how she manages to casually and repeatedly cross the dimensional barrier, we can't 100% depend on her or her SOL powers to save the day. The second you establish that she can use Sol Control to jump between dimensions - is the second Burning Blaze becomes the solution to every problem Sonic can't handle right off the bat. 

Sonic Team ignoring the problem is actually probably their best play. In the comics, where you have more real estate to explain things and can better define specific conditions, you might be able to craft some kind of system that works... but I can't fathom the games having the time or space to explain something that would get super complicated super quickly.

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13 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The second you hand Silver the ability to rip open a portal and come back to a specific point in time, then he instantly breaks every plot past present in future. You have to start asking why he didn't come back yesterday and prevent the disaster currently on deck. You have to ask why he didn't go back and find the Phantom Ruby before Eggman. One mundane line of dialogue could kick a hornets nest that would have been otherwise just out of reach.

Well there's the trick, then; establish that he can't just jump back to any arbitrary point in time. Make up some mumbo jumbo about temporal disturbances tied to pivotal moments in history or something, so he can "coincidentally" only jump to whenever he won't break the narrative.

13 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Blaze, being in a different dimension is admittedly less dire, but similar in scope. By not telling us how she manages to casually and repeatedly cross the dimensional barrier, we can't 100% depend on her or her SOL powers to save the day. The second you establish that she can use Sol Control to jump between dimensions - is the second Burning Blaze becomes the solution to every problem Sonic can't handle right off the bat. 

I don't see why we're not there already, considering she was able to show up for something as trivial as a birthday party, and IDW Sonic basically did literally this.

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I do kind of wish they would explain more of what Blaze's world is like. In Rush Adventure we got the whole island/old time ship thing, but the impression I always got was that that was just a small part of the world and not what the entire thing was like.
Blaze is supposedly a princess. A princess of what exactly? The entire planet? A particular land?  Her house? What kind of life did she live prior to Rush that lead to her being the recluse loner that she was in that game?

It's such an undercooked concept but it sounds like it should be really important to understanding how the character functions.

It's implied in S3&K that Sonic has some sort of destined connection to the Chaos Emeralds. Perhaps Blaze is his counterpart from another world where the knowledge of her connection to the Sol Emeralds is better preserved and disseminated and that's had an impact on how the people of her planet view her and on how she's grown.

It's expecting too much from Sega to ever revisit these old ideas and expand on them. They're just going to continue to bounce from one half baked idea to the next and it's a bit frustrating.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well there's the trick, then; establish that he can't just jump back to any arbitrary point in time. Make up some mumbo jumbo about temporal disturbances tied to pivotal moments in history or something, so he can "coincidentally" only jump to whenever he won't break the narrative.

Same problem. If there is 1 safe spot for Silver to consistently travel to, then that is all he needs. If he cant travel to the events of Sonic heroes due to temporal anomalies, but can accurately travel to a point prior,  then there is nothing stoping him from telling Tails to secure Froggy ahead of time to prevent Metal Overlord. Then there is nothing preventing Silver from later returning to that same point in time and giving him the full details of the Phantom Ruby, allowing months of lead time to develop a countermeasure.

If Silver can accurately travel to any spot in history accurate to a few months to a few years, even if it isn't convenient to stopping the threat - he is more than capable of distilling future knowledge to the appropriate parties.

 

Quote

I don't see why we're not there already, considering she was able to show up for something as trivial as a birthday party, and IDW Sonic basically did literally this.

The comics have a better shot of getting away with it because they have more real estate. Blaze made it clear that she was not aware of what was happening in Sonic's world, and didn't bother to visit over the last 6 mo or so as she had no reason too.

There could be a difficulty in communicating with Blaze, which would explain why she wasn't immediately tapped to deal with Infinite. As far as we know, Blaze has the ability to pop over on a whim, but doesn't keep too close of an eye on Sonic's world in the meantime.

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2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

I don't think its something we can chalk up to being lazy or not caring... at least not in Silver's case.Its just that - particularly from a videogame standpoint - there really isn't a way that you can establish a viable, recurring and plausible time travel insert that will satisfy the masses without creating more problems than it fixes. 

Yes you can. Just say that Silver is from an alternate future. The end.

Re-establish him as someone who comes from a ruined future and he traveled back in time to try and find the cause of it all but explicitly state that the past he managed to reach, branched off from his timeline. That way the future of the characters we're following is still a mystery and Silver's meddling doesn't have an affect on what's destined to happen for Sonic and Co. 

That's what it was for Trunks in DBZ and it was literally written in their notes for Silver to "Think Trunks from DBZ". So why don't they just do that? You're gonna copy Trunks from DBZ but leave out the thing that kept the time travel from being a clusterfuck? Why?

It's even more silly considering that they obviously planned to keep Silver around. He didn't just debut in 06 and was brought back by popular demand. Silver was slated to appear in 3 games before Sonic 06 even came out. Trailers for Sonic Rivals were coming out at around the time trailers for Sonic 06 were. And at the beginning of 07, he was in the party-mode for Secret Rings which was also being developed at the same time 06 was because they foolishly split the team up to have it worked on. If they were planning on keeping him around regardless of his initial reception, you'd think they'd have been a bit more prepared to deal with his time travel nonsense.

However, they weren't because they're lazy. Or incompetent. Or both.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Blaze, being in a different dimension is admittedly less dire, but similar in scope. By not telling us how she manages to casually and repeatedly cross the dimensional barrier, we can't 100% depend on her or her SOL powers to save the day. The second you establish that she can use Sol Control to jump between dimensions - is the second Burning Blaze becomes the solution to every problem Sonic can't handle right off the bat. 

Sonic Team ignoring the problem is actually probably their best play. In the comics, where you have more real estate to explain things and can better define specific conditions, you might be able to craft some kind of system that works... but I can't fathom the games having the time or space to explain something that would get super complicated super quickly.

This isn't a problem that needs to have a super complicated fix. Even if it did, the games definitely DO have enough time and space to craft it. Especially after 10 plus years of this nonsense. 

If Burning Blaze being a quick and easy fix IS a problem then write it so that it isn't. It's not like the Chaos Emeralds being around has ever resulted in a quick and easy fix for the plot of a regular Sonic game. That wasn't the case in Rush or Rush Adventure either. If she has to have them all with her when she crosses over than establish a limit to what she can do with her power. Establish more than one immediate threat too. If she uses Burning Blaze to take out a fleet of ships and she runs out of energy and can't handle it anymore then what's she gonna do when it turns out there's more over the horizon? 

I don't like it when people act like these are things that are impossible to work around. There's plenty they can do to work with or around what they've established here. Not telling us how she crosses dimensions just confuses people. If you make it so that there's no established rule, the opposite of what you said happens. People are going to be more comfortable with the idea that it doesn't matter and start wondering why she isn't there to use her Sol Powers. That's what happened with Forces. Just a ton of people asking "Where's Blaze? Why isn't Blaze here?" SomecallmeJohnny asked why. Hellfirecomms asked why. Why did they ask why? Because they liked her and wanted her there. Why it made sense for her not to be there wasn't established so why not right? She was in Generations without an explanation. Silver was in Forces with a flimsy explanation that barely made any sense. 

It's actually really easy to fathom fixes to this. You need to establish rules that make good on what their limitations are. That way when they don't appear in a story you don't have to worry about people asking where they are because they should already know. 

And if they can't do that, then they shouldn't be used within their stories anymore. You can't just let your characters go around existing in ways that don't make sense. That's not in anyway within the best interest of the characters.

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14 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

Silver and Blaze stick around Sonic's world too much these days, they dont help much for the story, I prefer if we focus more on the characters of Sonic's world and the new characters like Tangle and Whisper.

Silver and Blaze must go back, (and Knuckles must stay on Angel Island).

Who agrees?

As a matter of fact Blaze is my altogether favorite Sonic character... so I don't agree whatsoever, nor will many other Sonic fans either as those you listed are popular characters. As others have said already your argument could be used the same for almost any character in the series. Also Tangle and Whisper are comic characters only... so can't tell if you are talking only about the comics here or not. Either way there is no reason to exclude characters like Blaze yet allow all the other non-core characters to stick around at the same time.

9 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Or just a game starring Blaze.

I agree with this! I would LOVE a game staring only Blaze and her world as it's such a interesting untapped upon concept. And while I doubt SEGA would have enough faith to have the game not have Sonic in it hogging the spotlight... However I think in concept it would do perfectly fine as long it was actually a good game.

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1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I agree with this! I would LOVE a game staring only Blaze and her world as it's such a interesting untapped upon concept. And while I doubt SEGA would have enough faith to have the game not have Sonic in it hogging the spotlight... However I think in concept it would do perfectly fine as long it was actually a good game.

Sonic Team/SEGA couldn't even have enough faith in Modern Sonic when it came to Sonic Forces. It's a shame because there's no "Tails' Mansion", "Knuckles Echinda Kong Country", "Eggman-Ware Inc." to turn to for spotlights on these other characters. We're too deep in the hole for that.

Adventures in the Sol Dimension.

Fallout 5 starring Future Boy Silver.

Team Chaotix  - Ace Attorney Detectives.

Can't happen. We can't even get our main blue boy right. 

 

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