Sonic Characterization at its Best, Worst, and how to move forward.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Except the fake had literally none of the "infinite power" inside of it.

You keep saying this but it's not actually true. It's weaker than the real emeralds, but it's not empty.

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

There's gaps in the logic there, but we don't know how a Chaos Emerald operates. We don't know what it's made up of, or created with, or even gains it's power apart from a connection to the Master Emerald. For all we know, there could be a way to replicate it, and given the time and research, Tails could do so.

And for all we know it wouldn't be easy to replicate it. If you're just going to accept that it's reasonable because he's already done it you shouldn't have any problem with what he does in Lost World.

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

They never explain how it causes the Eclipse Cannon to explode, but you can infer an answer relatively simply. The cannon needs the power of all seven emeralds to do the job Eggman and co are attempting to do. Hence why they tried to get all the emeralds beforehand. The fake emerald only has a wavelength that's the same as the rest, it doesn't have any power inside of it. The emerald's wavelength tricks the Eclipse Cannon into accepting it as real. It attempts to use up more power than it can afford, since it only has six emeralds but believes it has seven, causing a series of errors that would likely destroy the cannon. 

It doesn't matter how it makes the cannon explode (and you're wrong anyway, again the fake emerald is not powerless and Tails says the emerald itself is designed to explode, not just cause errors). My point is the ridiculous implausibility of him having an emerald designed perfectly for this situation in spite of having no apparent opportunity to make it. He pulls a deus ex machina straight out of his ass and nobody seems to be concerned with this, but a silly joke completely breaks people's ability to understand Lost World.

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

When Tails makes this claim, which is then validated by Sonic, it quickly steers off Tails' at least somewhat grounded mechanic skill

HE MADE

A BOAT

THAT SAILS

BETWEEN

DIMENSIONS

Tails' "grounded mechanical skill" left the series decades before Lost World, if it ever existed at all. If you can accept all the other ridiculous shit he's done as "just how Sonic's world works", why are you assuming that TVs have to work exactly as they do in our world?

2 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Not to mention his original comment doesn't even make much sense in hindsight (Why on earth would Tails need cleaning liquid to reprogram a computer for one?). 

That's the joke...

[GentlemanX]

I like a number of the different interpretations of Sonic we've gotten over the years. My personal favorite is the Japanese game/anime Sonic that was around from roughly 1991-2009, and that we see a little bit of in Forces. He's an adventurer who's always just going where the wind takes him, always looking for some new challenge to get himself involved in. He likes to get to know people and help them out if he can, but at the end of the day he'll be racing off to whatever's waiting for him next. I prefer seeing him be static, usually acting as a catalyst for development of other characters rather than exploring some aspect of himself. If a new character show's off a new side to him, that's great, but I don't really want him learning about some personal failing. I see this Sonic sort of like Superman or Goku (in before this analogy gets misinterpreted) - a constant always ready to act against anything that comes his way.

I'm also a big fan of SatAM/Archie Sonic, who's a lot more vulnerable and personal than his game counterpart. He's still got that excitable attitude, but is content with sticking around his home and living with the people he cares about. His connections are tighter, which makes him apt to get more emotional if something ticks him off. He can be depressed by personal loss and has more defined but fluid goals and interactions with others. I think this also rings true for Sonic, just in subtle but significantly different ways from the game counterpart. I won't spend time talking about them as I'm less impressed with them, but I also like his portrayals in AOSTH, Underground, and even STC (which can be way different in how he treats others, but overall still works).

My least favorite is easily his interpretation in Sonic Boom, but it comes with the caveat that I don't like anything in Sonic Boom save some character designs of certain minor characters. I find this Sonic annoying and out of step with his other versions in how disinterested he is with things and how prone his personality changes depending on the plot. In some ways, such as his snark, he feels like an over exaggeration of his normal persona. While he, and Boom as a whole, have a fan base likely for that reason, it really leaves me cold.

His portrayal in Colors and Lost World specifically are, while not as bad as Sonic Boom, still aren't ideal for me; though for different reasons. In Colors, I feel like Sonic's simply not given enough to do, resulting in many of his scenes focused on a particular joke, often without even an audience. These moments get stale fast, making me beg for someone to come along he can bounce off of. Lost World meanwhile is all about interactions with other characters, but I find it unnatural for the most part. I don't find the way they put Sonic and Tails at odds believable, and much of his dialogue is in service to that plot resulting in little I find appealing. If he had more than one or two interactions with the Zeti each, or if the emphasis was put on Sonic and Eggman awkwardly coordinating, I think it would have been fine, but choosing to spend so much time with Sonic trying to get Tails to not be upset with him is simply not captivating for me.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I believe apart of why Tails falls flat in Lost World, bar the obviousness of being out of line, never getting called out on it, being considered "In the right" etc. I feel like the game's writing severely breaks the suspension of disbelief regarding the character, and ups his annoyance factor by removing his ability to make mistakes.

To word it carefully, given we're also talking about a eight year old fox boy genius, we've somehow moved on from Tails just being a mechanical prodigy to just a Deus-Ex Machina machine. We went from the guy just building a workshop and a few bi-planes, a walking mech at worse, into somehow being able to miraculously build TVs out of paperclips, and reprogram supercomputers with washing liquid and a toothpick. It's already a bit tough to swallow Tails being at a level that he can make planes and such, but at the very least you can argue he has the engineering skills, and knowledge to actually place them together in a fashion that works.

Lost World's issue, even if it's just for a cheap joke, which it isn't because it comes back later as an plot device and an important one at that - Tails moves on from the hard-working effort required to build a device like the Tornado, to seemingly being able to magic up televisions made entirely out of paperclips, or being able to reprogram Eggman's devices with only his tail and within a few seconds at that. It takes an already kind of shaky idea that could get away with suspension of disbelief, and even be somewhat endearing to his personality, only to drive it so far down the path of complete and total nonsense that it shatters the disbelief altogether, and leaves Tails on even more shaky ground. 

Even with his most "extreme" example in SA2 with making the fake emerald, Tails had already been established to have researched the emeralds before, which was the beginning of SA1's story since he tinkered with it to supercharge the Tornado, and even at that, Tails couldn't come close to replicating a real emerald, all he could do was basically connect it with the Chaos and Master emeralds retrospectively, and even when Sonic used Chaos Control on it, it clearly took up Sonic's own energy to do it, as opposed to Shadow who can do it effortlessly. 

I should have responded to this earlier before it got out of hand but yeah I'll cut in here to say that this kind of thing doesn't matter to me in the slightest. You could put a similar microscope over the consistency of the abilities of any character in the series and come up with similar grievances. It's a dumb cartoon series where sometimes things are exaggerate for effect, convenience, or fun. It's not a shonen with consistent power levels or whatever.

There's no way to rationalize Tails literally pulling an 8th emerald out of his ass as completely reasonable compared to some shit he was spouting in Lost World that honestly came off as a joke more than anything else. He was already way past the point of reasonable, grounded intelligence once he pulled that one. At that point you either roll with it or you don't.

It's more that it's the only thing he does. A kid supergenius who can solve any problem isn't interesting on it's own. That's the main problem that i have with the character. 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I'll cut in here to say that this kind of thing doesn't matter to me in the slightest. You could put a similar microscope over the consistency of the abilities of any character in the series and come up with similar grievances. It's a dumb cartoon series where sometimes things are exaggerate for effect, convenience, or fun. It's not a shonen with consistent power levels or whatever.

There's no way to rationalize Tails literally pulling an 8th emerald out of his ass as completely reasonable compared to some shit he was spouting in Lost World that honestly came off as a joke more than anything else. He was already way past the point of reasonable, grounded intelligence once he pulled that one. At that point you either roll with it or you don't.

It's more that it's the only thing he does. A kid supergenius who can solve any problem isn't interesting on it's own. That's the main problem that i have with the character. 

I get what they were trying to do with the toothpick line. They were trying to be absurd on purpose for the sake of making an exaggerated joke about how much of a genius Tails is. They thought the best way to do that was to make up something that couldn't even be explained by pseudo fantasy science and went full on cartoony with it. So I get it. I have a ton of problems with Tails in Lost World but the toothpick thing doesn't register because I don't really give a shit.

My problem with that scene is that it wasn't funny because he was bragging about some bullshit at Sonic for no reason when all Sonic did was ask him a simple question.

The real problem is how uninteresting being a super-genius with no faults can be. It's worse when he's an arrogant super-genius too. "You DARE bring along Dr. Eggman so that he can shut down HIS machine using the logic that he'd probably be the best to do it because he's the one who made it? How insulting. I'm going to take this PERSONALLY even though literally one scene before I had no problem with it and you were WAY more against Eggman joining us than I was."

My favorite episode of Boom is still probably "Translate This" where he makes a robot that can accidentally translate what people say into what they mean. It's absurd and impossible and Tails even admits he didn't plan for it to work that way but the entire episode was focused on how busted it's function was initially and then towards the end he used it's malfunction in a way that cleverly led into the resolution of the conflict that was going on. He made a mistake and used it to his advantage. He also felt bad about the fact that he messed up too. I can feel sympathy for someone like that. It's cute seeing him nerd out over his stuff.

 

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I guess it's just the whole monotone execution of it for me. Even his voice actor sounds bored. I mean even in Sonic X he finally got a big arc with a very emotional climax, but I dunno, something about how Tails is executed in terms of characterisation around that era just feels too.....formal for lack of a better word. Usually when a character emotes it's through particular quirks, but until around Colours Tails it didn't feel like Tails had any specifically, even at his most intense, which is perhaps why a lot of games can go in and out with vices like cowardice and arrogance and it doesn't seem to effect much in the long run.

Boom Tails isn't just set up in role, he feels way more enthusiastic and playful, he's an actual friend rather than an acquaintance, and the way he represents that is developed and consistent to actually be a personality he emits constantly.

That's a fair complaint. But formal is a pretty accurate description of Tails because that's exactly what he is. He's just a gentle dorky kid that likes to tinker with machines. He's not an adventure junkie like Sonic nor is he bound by duty like Knuckles. Its why he feels so...awkward post-Colors, because that's the exact opposite on how he's been written lol. Not that I'm against alternate takes on the cast, but like @Dr. Detective Mike said, egotistical genius is Eggman's shtick, so it feels weird that they've tried to portray Tails like that when...that's now who he is. 

But the execution of it is a fair complaint, but honestly I would chalk that up more to technical limitations than anything inherently wrong with the game itself, and it's why I feel like the Adventure games would benefit the most from a re-imagining, because those awkward and stilted scenes can convey the emotion they're meant to convey without the awkward voice acting and animations. 

And Boom Tails is still basically Adventure!Tails lol; he's a dork about machines, looks up to Sonic but has initiative without him, and when the going gets tough, he knows how to toughen up and get shit done. Boom!Tails is exactly what a post-Adventure Tails should act like. 

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's a fair complaint. But formal is a pretty accurate description of Tails because that's exactly what he is. He's just a gentle dorky kid that likes to tinker with machines. He's not an adventure junkie like Sonic nor is he bound by duty like Knuckles. Its why he feels so...awkward post-Colors, because that's the exact opposite on how he's been written lol. Not that I'm against alternate takes on the cast, but like @Dr. Detective Mike said, egotistical genius is Eggman's shtick, so it feels weird that they've tried to portray Tails like that when...that's now who he is. 

But the execution of it is a fair complaint, but honestly I would chalk that up more to technical limitations than anything inherently wrong with the game itself, and it's why I feel like the Adventure games would benefit the most from a re-imagining, because those awkward and stilted scenes can convey the emotion they're meant to convey without the awkward voice acting and animations. 

And Boom Tails is still basically Adventure!Tails lol; he's a dork about machines, looks up to Sonic but has initiative without him, and when the going gets tough, he knows how to toughen up and get shit done. Boom!Tails is exactly what a post-Adventure Tails should act like. 

Fair point, admittedly most of SA1 was held back by bad animation and acting (besides Gamma perhaps who is SUPPOSED to be robotic). It's hard to really show any youthful enthusiasm with that animation quality, though the later games don't have that excuse.

Well Boom Tails also has the pro of being regularly close to Sonic in even mundane things, while nearly all of the early 3D games had their first interaction as 'Long time no see'. That might be a major part in why I described him negatively as 'formal'.

28 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

My favorite episode of Boom is still probably "Translate This" where he makes a robot that can accidentally translate what people say into what they mean. It's absurd and impossible and Tails even admits he didn't plan for it to work that way but the entire episode was focused on how busted it's function was initially and then towards the end he used it's malfunction in a way that cleverly led into the resolution of the conflict that was going on. He made a mistake and used it to his advantage. He also felt bad about the fact that he messed up too. I can feel sympathy for someone like that. It's cute seeing him nerd out over his stuff.

 

Yeah that was a good moment for Tails, it was also a good way to show a more pitiful side rather than generic cowardice or OOC arrogance. It was one of the first times we saw Tails' inventions treated as a bad thing and him being incredibly dejected by that, and insisting that NEXT TIME he'll get it working and everyone will love it. That's a more characteristic form of ego, not naked egotism, just a bit of over insistence on being appreciated, and it also gives him back some spark of energy. A few later appearances would play on this well, such as the circus one or the Lightning Bolts' introduction.

I feel like Boom Tails was what Lost World was TRYING to aim for, but didn't quite get the archetype.

[dbzfan7]

Glad to see my thread has caught on. 

Anyways I should throw in my own two cents.

 

Sonic

I think he was at his best in games like the Adventure titles, specifically 2, Heroes (I'll get to that), and Sonic and the Black Knight. He just had this really infectious attitude and spirit that I don't see anymore. This is the guy who really likes excitement. This is someone who I feel is seeking thrills and going to where the next one will be. Ryan D really captured that. He has confidence, attitude, but he's not a total dick. He is to mainly Knuckles because of their rivalry and him believing in Eggman. Heroes I wouldn't say his character progressed, hell it's only his voice that got better. But honestly in Heroes, he is full of energy and passion. It's a shame the story does him no good, but man when Sonic is up front he is 150% involved in what he's doing. LET'S GO!!! This is the Sonic I see as someone people want to follow or tag along with. He's cool, he passionate, and he is having so much fun doing what he does. I adore it. I add Black Knight for his heroics and interesting viewpoints, but the game kinda makes him a little too sueish. I mean he swung a sword around for 5 minutes and is lecturing versions of his friends who surely have practiced far longer. I want this infectious Sonic back. The one that makes me want to get off my ass and go for a run. I miss him so much.

The worst is basically all of Modern Sonic. He is everything to me Sonic isn't. He's an asshole. He lacks passion. He is as egotistical as Eggman is. He loves the sound of his own voice to the point he'd fuck his own voice. He doesn't make me want to get off my ass and expel excess energy but rather shoot him in the face and then just leave. He's unfunny. He's self deprecating. Rather than be excited by the prospect of an adventure he's bored by it or barely cares. His enthusiasm is at an all time low. Boom doesn't help either adding lazier, boring, and being an old grandpa if things aren't exactly as they should be. Hell the real Sonic probably would both fear the idea of being surrounded by so much water, or die of boredom being on a stupid island. But it's a sitcom so I let some of this go. Still he like Modern Sonic makes me wonder why the hell anyone even likes or wants to follow him.

Tails

Ah Tails. Tails Tails Tails...my son. They fucked you over so bad people don't really care all that much about you anymore as much as they could have. You shoulda been the big number 2. The Luigi to Sonic's Mario. But now I see more people wondering why Shadow or Knuckles isn't the one getting these big spots while shrugging at you. I'd never see that with Luigi. He's immediately who people gravitate to after Mario. But you my son, they have failed you. You're probably the only number 2 I can think of that people don't really consider as important as other number 2's from Luigi to Ken to Falco to Diddy Kong, etc. They're immediately the second people when asked about those series most would think of.

Anyways this question is hard because you have 2 different things to consider. Personality wise and character wise. Tails might be the only character where you get one or the other, but not really both. Unless you look at the comics. Anyways I think the Adventure titles did the best for him, but more as the building blocks. He had the sidekick to hero's arc going on which made us route for him. We sorta had a beginning and end to it, and then in Heroes he's back at step 1 again and has since. Seeing his growth was lovely even if his personality hadn't fully blossomed yet. He was shy, reserved, but still a fanboy of Sonic. I would say this is where Tails was at his most PROMISING. He had everything but maybe a fully interesting personality. It didn't help that the children voicing him were not very good child va's, so it took away even further from him. This is gonna sound weird...especially from someone like me that hates both Colors and Boom, but personality wise they are on the right track with him. Not character wise I'd say, but they have got a more fun personality for him. A shame it's everything else surrounding it that sucks. Comic's have done him the most justice, specifically later in the issues, but because he tends to usually play second fiddle always to someone else which hurts him.

The worst is obviously Lost World and Forces to me. You either get the giant egotistical brat that is clearly in the wrong, and yet for some reason is treated as the right person or you get the complete total coward who does less than Charmy does. Even he is allowed to be more involved in the war than Tails and that's sad. He and Classic Sonic are the worst parts of Forces, especially when he tags along with a character who really has no good reason to be here in gameplay or story. I also throw in Sonic Boom as I still see the asshole I don't like, as well as the meekling I don't like either. The number of times I saw something anyone else surrounded that could handle themselves that he couldn't. I mean I can see any other villager do everything he could outside of intelligence. However the times the asshole side is down, he can have an infectious enthusiasm that Sonic doesn't have anymore. I'd probably put Boom Tails higher if he fought like he did in the comics and early days (Tails, spin dashes, and all), toned down some ego/asshole tendencies, and he'd pretty much be perfect.

Knuckles

Despite Tails being my son, Knuckles is probably who I am most like. I liked Knuckles from surprise surprise the Adventure and Heroes days. He had this reserved calm and collected side, a solemn duty that sadly leaves him alone, as well as a good heart. Because he basically has to keep himself stuck on an island forever, he is not good at reading people. He's gullible because of this. It makes you feel sad he has no one to be with to talk to and pass the time. He is a good foil to Sonic's enthusiastic recklessness as well. Heck they both played off each other in a older/younger sibling way. Seeing him and Sonic arguing or insulting each other isn't much different from how it was when I was younger with siblings. Especially my brother. It was Heroes though that let him be more fun. Kinda like he got used to being around Sonic and Tails that he could cut loose some more. Seeing his similar confidence to Sonic, but still wary of him. I still laugh at Sonic being like "Hey let's use that cannon!" and Knuckles like "Wait WHAT are you nuts!" But they do it anyways. This was Knuckles at his best for me.

Boom is him at his worst. Not even modern Knuckles is that bad. I don't even have to go deep into why. Everyone knows why. He's Knuckles if you took every joke about him seriously, and then made that into a character (Same as Edgelord Boom Shadow). Oddly he is the most likable of the Boom cast, because everyone else is prick in some regard, while he's unfortunately the punching bag...if it's not Tails. It's the common opinion I see alongside people who like Sonic X but not so much Chris. I hear "I like Sonic Boom, but Knuckles could stand to be not so stupid". He doesn't aggravate me like other characters because he's nicer than all of them, but he doesn't make me want to like or root for him either.

Eggman

Has anyone noticed where I am going with this yet XP. I wonder what I will say? I like Adventure Eggman best. Shocking. I like how he could be both threatening and goofy at the same time. I'm sure we could still get this if they'd just let Eggman be treated more as a threat, as well as let Mike add some more menace to him, without losing the goofy side. He also had admiration for Sonic as an adversary when he supposedly killed him. It was a nice thing to see. This was an eggman I believed was dangerous, but also someone to not be treated too lightly. He could catch you off guard, was tricky, and had a scary clown nature to him. The only thing that let him down for me was the numerous "We gotta team up and beat your monster" stories happening. It kinda takes off his menace somewhat. 

Worst is again Modern/Boom. They went too far in the clown direction. So much so he's a complete looser. He's Invader Zim in the main games, and EggNewman in the Boom universe. He's a joke to both his companions, and his enemies. I give Boom credit to at least not having Orbot and Cubot shit on him nearly as much, so it got that right. He's so lame he's made Sonic practically be bored by him. He's beneath Sonic. He's a pest. He's a child Sonic has to go ground and send to his room. He's like having the Pilaf gang be your main bad guys when it's clear they are beneath Goku. Not that I want Eggman gone, but give him a severe buff. Come on.

Amy

For fear of getting into an Amy discussion I'll be brief. Adventure Amy I like. Everything after that I don't like. Heroes Amy everyone explained to death already why as well as 06. Boom Amy because she's a bland boring token girl/girl power character. I hate Sticks, but even she is better than wet blanket Amy. I preferred her crushing on Sonic rather than barely doing so. I just hate when they take it too insanity levels of freak crush, or hot head with a hammer. Even Leader Amy falls flat for me.

Shadow

Same as above, due to increasing number of these two starting big chain wars I'll keep it brief. Adventure 2 and Heroes I like, everything else not so much. Adventure 2 for development and foreclosure, and Heroes for him being fun and more outspoken rather than discount Vegeta. Everything else....uh....seeing him and GUN commander bury the hatchet and work together is interesting...but that's about it. Modern Shadow and especially Boom Shadow are edgelord memes being made into the character. Comics had the right idea how to make Shadow fun without ruining him or using edgelord jokes.

 

And that's all for now.

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Tails4Smash said:

Hell the real Sonic probably would both fear the idea of being surrounded by so much water, or die of boredom being on a stupid island.

I honestly don't even get where some complaints come from.

You do remember that the first few games in the series took place on islands, right?

[PublicEnemy1]

So basically, @Tails4Smash, you hate all Modern characters.

[dbzfan7]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I honestly don't even get where some complaints come from.

You do remember that the first few games in the series took place on islands, right?

True but they were a lot bigger, and Sonic didn't stay on them. I mean once he's seen it all I'm pretty sure he'd want to leave and go somewhere else.

Just now, PublicEnemy1 said:

So basically, @Tails4Smash, you hate all Modern characters.

Well yeah pretty much eh heh...I mean all the main ones. I think the side ones aren't too bad. From Rouge, Vector, Cream, Charmy, Silver, etc. All of them I think are fine. Probably because the series hasn't ruined them yet XP. Omega was already down before modern anyways. He'll always be my guy from Team Dark in heroes for his comments. 

[StaticMania]

4 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

My problem with that scene is that it wasn't funny because he was bragging about some bullshit at Sonic for no reason when all Sonic did was ask him a simple question.

That would be the joke, yes?

It can only work as a joke due to the absurdity of what he's bragging about, but I assume the only thing making it not work is that it's Tails and he's bragging about things of a different scale than what he normally does.

[ShadowSJG]

Is modern shadow really edgy?

Also, this thread makes me realize how much I can't stand Pontaff

[Shadowlax]

49 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Is modern shadow really edgy?

Also, this thread makes me realize how much I can't stand Pontaff

Outside of boom

You don't really see him enough in anything that matters to make that assumption

Even generations you fought a version of him from another period of time. The longest we got to hang out with the guy in anything that might have an effect on interpretation is like...forces and he seeemed... nromal

[dbzfan7]

53 minutes ago, ShadowSJG said:

Is modern shadow really edgy?

Also, this thread makes me realize how much I can't stand Pontaff

When I say edgy I don't mean played straight Edgy. I mean edgy as a joke. The writers write him like the Ow the Edge memes. Not true edge like Infinite was written, but comedic edge like the whole "Friends are for loooosers" quote. That's comedic edge. Where you know it's not dark edge, but mocking an edge personality.

[Red Hot Jack]

For Sonic? Archie and IDW. That's when he is Sonic. He is balanced, maybe add Unleashed and the Storybook series, he shines there as well. Then there is the Colors - onwards version who is a dork and asshole, I don't really think that's Sonic but I kind of enjoy him being an asshole, still not my favorite Sonic, I like him when he is a rebel.

[Shadowlax]

16 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

And hoo boy, don’t get me started on hiw they fucked up Knuckles and Shadow...

I would argue there isn't enough shadow to claim that they " fucked up "

Knuckles on the other hand, yeah sure. 

I mean i guess you can claim the IDW comic fucked him up , but in the games you never get a feel for shadows personality. He hasn't been around enough recently to be anything. In forces he was a glorified plot device. Unless that's what you mean, then sure. But I wouldn't call it fucking up, more so not being used very much. Which I do not like that they are not using him very much.

15 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Boom is fine too, in fact I'd say Boom is a better portrayal because he's not as close to Sonic in that continuity, which means his character can stand out a lot more on his own and character more plots himself instead of piggybacking on Sonic. They're still clearly friends, but each of them have their own lives outside of each other. In fact, that's one of Boom's biggest strengths. Because of the Slice of life setting, Sonic doesn't have to take center stage as the big hero and the rest of the cast are able to show off much more personality since they don't have to play second fiddle to him. I personally find Boom boring as sin, but I do enjoy the characters when I watch an episode or two.

 

This is also why I like boom tails. While I do not like a lot of boom. Sonic, amy's, tails' , and eggman's characters had some interesting things done to them. Because everyone didn't really treat them with a sort of in universe reverence and it made all of their characters better. The town not giving a flying fuck about sonic being  a hero was the best thing to happen to sonic in years. 

17 hours ago, Wraith said:

He's just kind of a wet noodle of a character now? It's kind of a shame because from the Classics to SA1 he's one of the more unique and endearing parts of the series. Now he's just boring. 

Uh tried to tag Kuzu tag is broke so uh sorry. But Kuzu touched on this everyone from the classic era except for knuckles and eggman kinda didn't really have any defined goals. It works for sonic and amy, but tails is kind of weird in that regard. He's just a smart kid who's just... kind of there. And for quite a few people its used for him to be an exposition dump, and no one else really cares to use him outside of that.

But ontop of that i feel like tails has another issue. He's a classic character. Now being a classic character isn't an issue itself. However it seems like tails has a nother fanbase of people who don't want him to be anything besides cute and standing next to sonic. Any evolution of any character beyond their station is seen as the stuff that ruined sonic , so tails being just that works for them. And I feel like tails gets restricted in these roles to appeal to those people.

@Kuzu the Boloedge

[Sonic Fan J]

If I had the time and less on my mind I could probably go on and on here, but I have neither right now so I'll keep it simple.

My favorite version of Sonic is still the Sonic CD opening and ending due to his body language and way of movement telling you everything there is to know about him. He is cheerful but also confident and smug. He is curious and adventurous, and gains great satisfaction when he conquers an obstacle of his choosing. You can tell that he loves running and challenging himself as well as the fact that he is far from perfect but is still fearless and takes every challenge as it comes. There is a joy to life that he exudes that is lacking near everywhere else as it is never properly balanced with his attitude as it is here. After that would be the OVA (sub) as his body language is still on full display and it has been unfortunately missing for a very long time, as well as the fact that I just find him so nostalgic and whenever I watch him I'm reminded of how much I love the character. As those are both relatively short lived versions of Sonic though, beyond them I've always been partial to the wandering, vagabond, philosopher who lives life by his own rules, seeking his next adventure based on his knowledge of the world and its legends, wearing his attitude on his sleeve and letting his heart of gold shine through when others are in trouble or his sense of justice is challenged. It's part of why I like certain fan interpretations of Mighty as the calm pacifist as it works as a nice contrast and foil to Sonic's more abrasive edge while also still showing that Sonic and his philosophies fit in his world despite his attitude problem.

As for versions of Sonic I don't like; easily Modern Sonic the Comedian, BOOM! Sonic the disinterested, Classic Moe Sonic the Chibi, and Asshole to the Extreme Sonic the Comic Sonic. The reasons are mostly straightforward I guess, as all of these feel like they either miss the point of Sonic as a character or blow a trait of his totally out of proportion. Going in order; no sense of adventure or willingness to seek it and the next thrill; complete disinterest in his world that he lives to see every corner of in whatever order his feet gets him to it; a cute mascot character that somehow forgot that that stops at the simple nature of being a mascot character (he's supposed to represent SEGA and cute was not part of their branding in the 90s); and a jerk who only saves the day because he is author informed to do so and not because it fits with his hidden heart of gold and genuine care for his friends and world. This may be a gross simplification, but as I said I don't really have the focus for the subject right now and these are the aspects that most bother me. Though if I were to choose at least one more version to dislike it would easily be pre-Archie Reboot Sonic who was so enamored with being James Bond/Kirk as both the hero and womanizing romanticist that he never felt like the adventurer who just wanted to see the world and challenge himself that I made me fall in love with this franchise all those years ago in 1991. And I've heard the arguments "but he's a teenager so romance should be a major element" so many times it makes me sick, especially since when I was a teenager and even in my early twenties I had little interest in romance, and what interest I did have did not need validation from my favorite franchise. I want to see Sonic go on adventures and bring joy to others like he has me for so many years, not watch him snoggle every female character on screen while crashing at his parents house on his race car bed. That sounds to much like a juvenile power fantasy and not the adventurer who lives to see what's over the next horizon.

So I guess that brings me to where I would go from here... well, that should be obvious; I'd go back to Sonic being an adventurer seeking his next adventure and whatever he encounters along the way; challenges from Eggman; new characters and how his way of life affects them, new legends and lore; etc, etc. I'd even take advantage of all of the worlds that make up Sonic's current world, messed up as that is. I mean, you have Earth, Sonic's World, Blaze's World, Little Planet, the Lost Hex, Maginaryworld if you want to count it the Storybooks, countless lost ancient civilizations, the gods of his world from the unnamed of the Death Egg Saga to Chaos, Solaris, Dark and Light Gaia, and of course the gem stones that turn thoughts into power, unlock the flow of time, separate the barriers between worlds, and turn simple illusions into a new reality. There is so much for Sonic to yet see and do just touching on what is already established that he should barely be hide his eager grin for his next adventure behind his smug and self assured smirk. Adventure awaits him and he's itching for a run, so that's exactly what he should do; run.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I would argue there isn't enough shadow to claim that they " fucked up "

His own game is enough to claim that they fucked up.

And I say this as a fan of the character.

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

His own game is enough to claim that they fucked up.

And I say this as a fan of the character.

1) I thought you meant the " Modern " era

Two I don't really think they messed up that much, more so on communication. The point of that game is good, how they go about it, not so much.

Shadow putting his past behind him growing as his own person, good.

The guns and the cursing not so much. I wont say its perfect but the idea was fine. And maybe one day they will tell that type of shadow story again, but you know less guns and cursing

[DabigRG]

So, for whatever reason, I never bothered to check out this thread when it was being circulated. So I'll try to think of somethings to actually contribute and get the ball rollin again since character is key.

On 11/29/2018 at 10:44 AM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I honestly do get the feeling that Eggman is Pontac and Graff's favorite character to write for considering the care that goes into his character that I just don't see in their Sonic or Tails.

 

His jokes are better than Sonic's and he fits the ego driven genius archetype better than Tails.

 

Makes perfect sense on both accounts:

1. Villains are often easier to write and/or get into since they are inherently not the most upstanding people/creatures and often make the plot.
2. Eggman is a character that naturally fits their style of writing, as can be seen in their other works like Pacman and the Ghostly Adventures.

 

On 11/29/2018 at 4:22 PM, Ryannumber1Santa said:

 

To word it carefully, given we're also talking about a eight year old fox boy genius, we've somehow moved on from Tails just being a mechanical prodigy to just a Deus-Ex Machina machine. We went from the guy just building a workshop and a few bi-planes, a walking mech at worse, into somehow being able to miraculously build TVs out of paperclips, and reprogram supercomputers with washing liquid and a toothpick. It's already a bit tough to swallow Tails being at a level that he can make planes and such, but at the very least you can argue he has the engineering skills, and knowledge to actually place them together in a fashion that works.

Lost World's issue, even if it's just for a cheap joke, which it isn't because it comes back later as an plot device and an important one at that - Tails moves on from the hard-working effort required to build a device like the Tornado, to seemingly being able to magic up televisions made entirely out of paperclips, or being able to reprogram Eggman's devices with only his tail and within a few seconds at that. It takes an already kind of shaky idea that could get away with suspension of disbelief, and even be somewhat endearing to his personality, only to drive it so far down the path of complete and total nonsense that it shatters the disbelief altogether, and leaves Tails on even more shaky ground. 

To be fair, I never took that as him flat out reprogramming the entire process--just getting it to stop so he can get free.

[Multikaris]

On 11/29/2018 at 3:43 PM, Diogenes said:

You keep saying this but it's not actually true. It's weaker than the real emeralds, but it's not empty.

And for all we know it wouldn't be easy to replicate it. If you're just going to accept that it's reasonable because he's already done it you shouldn't have any problem with what he does in Lost World.

It doesn't matter how it makes the cannon explode (and you're wrong anyway, again the fake emerald is not powerless and Tails says the emerald itself is designed to explode, not just cause errors). My point is the ridiculous implausibility of him having an emerald designed perfectly for this situation in spite of having no apparent opportunity to make it. He pulls a deus ex machina straight out of his ass and nobody seems to be concerned with this, but a silly joke completely breaks people's ability to understand Lost World.

HE MADE

A BOAT

THAT SAILS

BETWEEN

DIMENSIONS

Tails' "grounded mechanical skill" left the series decades before Lost World, if it ever existed at all. If you can accept all the other ridiculous shit he's done as "just how Sonic's world works", why are you assuming that TVs have to work exactly as they do in our world?

That's the joke...

A dimension-crossing vehicle is cool and serves a story purpose, a TV made of toothpicks is not. Hence why that scene is complained about and seen as goofy. Also, Tails had recently been made so that technology was his only point. The whole game was also really silly, which the TV scene was a symptom of. 

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

A dimension-crossing vehicle is cool and serves a story purpose, a TV made of toothpicks is not.

First: the TV was made out of paperclips, the toothpick was used to reprogram a supercomputer. Second, the scene absolutely has a story purpose; it establishes the extent of Tails' abilities for anyone who isn't familiar with him, which is essential to understanding his feelings of betrayal when Sonic lets Eggman tag along, and it's setup for him reprogramming that machine and avoiding becoming a brainwashed cyborg. Compare to the interdimensional boat, which only exists to get Sonic and Tails back to their world, after the story has effectively ended, and is only a few steps above a deus ex machina. Oh but it's "cool" and that makes it okay, as if that attitude hasn't been an albatross around this series' neck.

[Multikaris]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

First: the TV was made out of paperclips, the toothpick was used to reprogram a supercomputer. Second, the scene absolutely has a story purpose; it establishes the extent of Tails' abilities for anyone who isn't familiar with him, which is essential to understanding his feelings of betrayal when Sonic lets Eggman tag along, and it's setup for him reprogramming that machine and avoiding becoming a brainwashed cyborg. Compare to the interdimensional boat, which only exists to get Sonic and Tails back to their world, after the story has effectively ended, and is only a few steps above a deus ex machina. Oh but it's "cool" and that makes it okay, as if that attitude hasn't been an albatross around this series' neck.

Well, the toothpick could have been replaced with another object, as there’s little reason it should be a toothpick specifically, nor why he broke free of his own accord. And what about bringing up something from a prior game rather than the paperclip TV? 

[StaticMania]

Tails is never stated to repair the planes, he always has a new one...so there's nothing to bring up from pre-existing games.

The only other thing is the Fake Chaos emerald, which is eh...

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, the toothpick could have been replaced with another object, as there’s little reason it should be a toothpick specifically,

They could've made it some other object, but why would they? A toothpick suits the story just fine; it's innocuous enough to mention early on without raising too much attention and it's something he could reasonably get his hands (or tail, rather) on later, since one of the villains is a sandwich-munching glutton.

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

nor why he broke free of his own accord.

Breaking free on his own shows that he's got his head back on straight after fumbling with repairing Cubot and almost getting himself hurt because he was too busy being pissed off and trying to one-up Eggman.

2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

And what about bringing up something from a prior game rather than the paperclip TV? 

Because that wouldn't be a joke, it'd just be sloppy exposition. Plus it makes sense to pair the toothpick story with something equally absurd to keep the tone of the conversation consistent rather than being at odds with itself.