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lulzers

What if there was a Sonic game in which Sonic himself gets put through the wringer?

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Basically, the writers put Sonic through as much abuse as possible. Terrible thing after terrible thing happens to him and his friends, eventually to the point where he snaps. But in the end he takes all of these traumatic events in stride and carries on.

Of course this is speaking if this plot was done right like the later issues of Pre-boot Archie Sonic. Done poorly, it would be like a bad Spongebob episode. The kind where a character is punished for no good reason. (Most notably Squidward)

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Depends on the sort of wringer. Let's not make it too much. But the emotional wringer, where he's mostly seeing his efforts failing and others being hurt as a result, it slowly wearing until at one point one thing just gets to him and knocks down the jenga tower? Sure, Because at the end of it, he can pick himself back up, try to get through, succeed and continue moving on. That would be a great show of his character, and even if it if the story has its corny moments, it could still be a relatable, interesting look at him nonetheless. (Basically, like you said)

It doesn't have to be something like "Sonic sees a man get eviscerated, watches a car crush someone, and Tails dies a slow, painful death before his very eyes" but crap if it can't something scarring to him. For instance, in Forces, even if he wasn't tortured for a year, being in that small space for that long, not being able to make his own choices, every moment of his being on camera, knowing that others suffered as a result of his loss has to leave some sort of mark.

But that REALLY depends on the writing behind it.

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1 hour ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Sonic Forces already did this Eggman even had 99% of the world under his control.

You mean where it's stated that Eggman tortured Sonic for months yet he NEVER showed any visible signs of it? Hell, that was something the English version included from what I've heard.

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TBH, there were a bit of that in Sonic Lost World. Where Sonic loose Tails, see Eggman fall to supposedly his death, doesn't get an answer from Amy and Knuckles as life is slowly sucked out of the planet… and all this just because he made a mistake. Lost World's story is basically "Sonic have done a mistake, and it'll get worst now on".

It wasn't done pretty right, but I feel that was the intention here : give him a lot of crap to make a stronger return to form (sadly that part wasn't done right too).

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7 hours ago, lulzers said:

You mean where it's stated that Eggman tortured Sonic for months yet he NEVER showed any visible signs of it? Hell, that was something the English version included from what I've heard.

what makes you think it would be done any better if it was attempted again?

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Whenever I see threads like this I feel like there are too many Sonic fans who aren't indulging in more grown-up forms of media that will scratch this sort of itch.  There are lots of stories out there that are well-written and enjoyable in spite of the main character going through such turmoil, but I just don't really see how it could work hand-in-hand with Sonic's sort of gameplay.  That sort of story can work in a game where the cut-scenes don't feel like a seperate entity to the gameplay - your The Last of Us's etc.  But it's hard to imagine a Sonic game where Sonic is getting emotionally beaten down and then it fades to black and loads up "FUNTIME CASINO ZONE" and you're speeding off with jazzy music and such.  Obviously that's an intentionally silly extreme example, but I'm just saying, it'd be hard to pull off, even though I wouldn't mind the idea of seeing it if done well.

Also the ideas in the OP seem kind of oxymoronic anyway... Sonic gets knocked down and down to the point of "snapping" yet also "takes it in stride"?  What would the snapping portion entail?  My first thought would be Sonic somehow giving up and we control another character for a few levels, but that would... frankly be out of character.  Sonic got nearly beaten to death before the finale of Sonic and the Black Knight, and he still didn't give up.  Likewise in Episode 26 of Sonic X.  We've seen Sonic in this kind of scenario already and we know it'd be out of character for him to give up.

My ideal "serious" Sonic game would be one where Sonic is put up against insurmountable odds and has to overcome them in a narratively interesting way using a solution that makes sense and can be reasonably pieced together by the audience (not just "a piece of the first boss got lodged into the doomsday weapon and the bad guy didn't notice" or "the bad guy dropped a powerful relic that a character picks up and can magically use to undo another powerful relic and the bad guy didn't notice" etc).  Tragedy can definitely happen along the way and be a shocking/surprising or sombre moment to motivate the characters and the player to continue, but just... abusing characters for the sake of it just feels lazy and DARE I SAY IT edgy for edginess' sake.

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12 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

TBH, there were a bit of that in Sonic Lost World. Where Sonic loose Tails, see Eggman fall to supposedly his death, doesn't get an answer from Amy and Knuckles as life is slowly sucked out of the planet… and all this just because he made a mistake. Lost World's story is basically "Sonic have done a mistake, and it'll get worst now on".

It wasn't done pretty right, but I feel that was the intention here : give him a lot of crap to make a stronger return to form (sadly that part wasn't done right too).

Yeah, oddly enough, I feel like that's also the middling catch about Zavok's villainy. He's supposed to be a concise villain who can gradually wear Sonic down and finds weaknesses to exploit overtime, but the two games he's been in thus far didn't either establish much of a dynamic between their characters or failed to have his torment have that much of an effect.

7 hours ago, Scape said:

what makes you think it would be done any better if it was attempted again?

The fact that we know SEGA have been paying some attention to what fans want and some of their complaints.

3 hours ago, Soniman said:

Both SLW and Forces tried to beat Sonic down and both failed at it. Might as well stop trying 

Yeah, I think they've overplayed that card a little too much recently. Need to give it a break.

1 hour ago, JezMM said:

  But it's hard to imagine a Sonic game where Sonic is getting emotionally beaten down and then it fades to black and loads up "FUNTIME CASINO ZONE" and you're speeding off with jazzy music and such.  Obviously that's an intentionally silly extreme example, but I'm just saying, it'd be hard to pull off, even though I wouldn't mind the idea of seeing it if done well.

To be fair, I recall most of Lost World's musical tracks gradually being less energetic around the time Tails gets capture.

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Archie Sonic #175 was probably the best way to show exactly this kind of situation.

Eggman sets about destroying group's base, and seemingly vapourises everyone, leaving only Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. It turns out that everyone else was warped to Eggman's base instead. 

Meanwhile, Eggman proceeds to thrash Sonic to within an inch of his life, but leaves him alone in the ruins of Knothole.

This should have been adapted. 

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Also the beatdown he got in Black Knight and getting plain humiliated by Silver twice over in next Gen.

While him getting physically outdone works to make him more fallible, I think it only gets so far with Sonic because that's something he's more liable to shake off, being a powerhouse and plot armour.

It's often mental outgoings that get to him more. See Jet sounding his pride in Riders or the many times his ethics are challenged in Boom due to dumb or ungrateful civilians making saving them a trial. I find it a shame Unleashed didn't play much story into the fact Eggman got so far by playing on Sonic's overconfidence as well. I always like those times Eggman gets the upper hand specifically due to exploiting one of the heroes' flaws and they know it (even if Knuckles' gullibility got over used).

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On 12/15/2018 at 10:50 AM, JezMM said:

Whenever I see threads like this I feel like there are too many Sonic fans who aren't indulging in more grown-up forms of media that will scratch this sort of itch.  There are lots of stories out there that are well-written and enjoyable in spite of the main character going through such turmoil, but I just don't really see how it could work hand-in-hand with Sonic's sort of gameplay.  That sort of story can work in a game where the cut-scenes don't feel like a seperate entity to the gameplay - your The Last of Us's etc.  But it's hard to imagine a Sonic game where Sonic is getting emotionally beaten down and then it fades to black and loads up "FUNTIME CASINO ZONE" and you're speeding off with jazzy music and such.  Obviously that's an intentionally silly extreme example, but I'm just saying, it'd be hard to pull off, even though I wouldn't mind the idea of seeing it if done well.

Also the ideas in the OP seem kind of oxymoronic anyway... Sonic gets knocked down and down to the point of "snapping" yet also "takes it in stride"?  What would the snapping portion entail?  My first thought would be Sonic somehow giving up and we control another character for a few levels, but that would... frankly be out of character.  Sonic got nearly beaten to death before the finale of Sonic and the Black Knight, and he still didn't give up.  Likewise in Episode 26 of Sonic X.  We've seen Sonic in this kind of scenario already and we know it'd be out of character for him to give up.

My ideal "serious" Sonic game would be one where Sonic is put up against insurmountable odds and has to overcome them in a narratively interesting way using a solution that makes sense and can be reasonably pieced together by the audience (not just "a piece of the first boss got lodged into the doomsday weapon and the bad guy didn't notice" or "the bad guy dropped a powerful relic that a character picks up and can magically use to undo another powerful relic and the bad guy didn't notice" etc).  Tragedy can definitely happen along the way and be a shocking/surprising or sombre moment to motivate the characters and the player to continue, but just... abusing characters for the sake of it just feels lazy and DARE I SAY IT edgy for edginess' sake.

You'd have to change the setting of the game to make such an emotional journey work, for the reasons you stated above.  The Genesis games certainly don't gel well with it because they weren't really made to tell a story; rather to show off a lot of environmental variety and flashy colors.  However, the Saturday morning Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon and Sonic Adventure 2 took things a lot more seriously and both have a lot of fans.  They have detractors too, but they have enough fans to prove that you can do a Sonic plot that's darker and not be slammed as try-hard.  It's the sort of thing I don't think Sonic Team is up for these days, though.

On 12/15/2018 at 12:24 PM, DabigRG said:

The fact that we know SEGA have been paying some attention to what fans want and some of their complaints.

Sega listens to complaints enough to know they have problems, but I'm not convinced they always find the right solutions.  People complained about a lot of the slower Adventure characters, and that led to more and more obsession with speed until they threw in the boost.  People complained about the serious plots in Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 2006, and we got overly comedic plots in response.  Instead of necessarily better-developed alternate gameplay styles, they gave us faster gameplay.  Instead of serious plots that are written well, make sense and don't try to be gratuitously edgy or dramatic, we get un-serious plots that don't try for much more than cheap laughs, and a confounding admission by Iizuka that they don't even bother to have solid continuity anymore.  Sega responds to complaints about things by giving people different things; not necessarily better things.

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