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lulzers

What if there was a Bigger Bad in the Sonic series?

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According to TV Tropes, the Greater-Scope Villain, or Bigger Bad, is a villain that is a bigger threat and has more influence than the Big Bad (this case being Dr. Eggman), but has little to no involvement in the plot. While there have been villains other than Eggman, they've more or less been one-shots or became good. This makes me wonder, what if there was a recurring major villain who was a much bigger menace than Eggman, but only appears occasionally to screw with Sonic and friends? Hell, there could be stories where they're the main villain and Eggman doesn't appear at all.

I can see this character being some sort of powerful demonic entity with a cruel and manipulative nature like Mephiles. (Though he would have a more unique design like instead of a Shadow recolor he would look more like a fallen angel with a Sonic aesthetic) If Dr. Eggman is Mojo Jojo from the Powerpuff Girls, then the demon would be HIM.

What do you guys think of this idea? Could it work under capable writers? What are the pros and cons?

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2 hours ago, lulzers said:

This makes me wonder, what if there was a recurring major villain who was a much bigger menace than Eggman, but only appears occasionally to screw with Sonic and friends?

 

Great Evil Power that screws with Sonic? Does Sega count?

Anyway, there is no point in filling some imaginary quota just for sake of that quota. If someone has a GOOD idea for character& story, they can make him. If you do it just because other franchises did it, please rethink your priorities.

Personally, I think of Mephiles as "Bigger Bad", even if he appeared in one game. He killed Sonic, almost destroyed entire universe, it took 3 super forms to stop him for a while, and he's responsible for Sonic 2006. There is no greater evil than that. Besides, Eggman was sidelined by other villains so many times, I don't think we need a guy who'll do it on regular basis.

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This was one of the big reasons for why I was excited for Rise of Lyric as a series, honestly, since while it set Eggman up as the smaller threat for the game at that point, with his "up-and-coming villain in the making" concept the early version had, it had the potential to set him up as a larger threat than ever before, with an arc of buildup as Sonic fought against several smaller-scale villains in terms of ambitions/influence.

Of course we all know how that turned out, but still.

I don't think I would enjoy anyone other than Eggman filling in this role though, honestly. I want to see more villains with an impact, yeah, and a villain with a buildup would certainly do the trick, but Eggman is still "the" villain for Sonic; eclipsing his importance entirely just doesn't sit right with me on a consistent basis, and it just feels wrong to classify him as the "minor league" of the villain when his importance should be a main sticking point as to why he's Sonic's arch-enemy. At the very least, he should be on an equal standing to such a villain, with other plans getting in the way of him being involved at the moment or something, rather than undersold in the same storyarc.

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Isn't Mephiles the Dark already the biggest threat of the Sonic Universe? I mean he is technically their version of the devil... I think. Hard to say what Sega actually wanted to do with him.

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I'm pretty sure you're misunderstand the term vs. what you're actually suggesting:

A Bigger Bad is a character whose influence has a great reach and longevity across much of the series, sometimes even being the reason the Big Bad does what they do. For instance, Gerald Robotnik is a relatively close example in this series; Pachacamac or (formerly) Ix may fit the first description better, depending on where your focus is.

What you're asking for is something I think a lot of us, including SEGA themselves, have been thinking about and/or wanting: another recurring villain for the Rogue's Gallery or even a Big Bad Ensemble. Off the top of my head, Zavok felt like a mostly genuine attempt at finally designing such a villain, with Dr. NEGA initially acting as the latter.

6 hours ago, Rowl said:

Isn't Mephiles the Dark already the biggest threat of the Sonic Universe? I mean he is technically their version of the devil... I think. Hard to say what Sega actually wanted to do with him.

 

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

 

Personally, I think of Mephiles as "Bigger Bad", even if he appeared in one game. He killed Sonic, almost destroyed entire universe, it took 3 super forms to stop him for a while, and he's responsible for Sonic 2006. There is no greater evil than that. 

Eh, he was more just the brain of some random timewarping diety that existed in another dimension before the Duke brought him over to harness his power.

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Given the way SEGA treats Eggman at times, I wonder if in their heart of hearts that's what they actually want to do.

That being said, I don't think it'd really work or be received all that well. One of the biggest complaints of hte Modern era was that Eggman's schemes constantly backfire and lead to him being overshadowed by other menaces. Making it clear that he's not really the lead villain of the series despite the fact he's been such since the beginning would just alienate people and make them resent the intended 'bigger bad' for usurping his place within the series. 

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8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Besides, Eggman was sidelined by other villains so many times, I don't think we need a guy who'll do it on regular basis.

 

8 hours ago, FFWF said:

To be honest, the Modern series undersells Eggman enough as it is.  I don't think we really need him to be canonically confirmed as small potatoes.

 

8 hours ago, The Deleter said:

At the very least, he should be on an equal standing to such a villain, with other plans getting in the way of him being involved at the moment or something, rather than undersold in the same storyarc.

I think the issue there is more that they insist on shoving Eggman into the games as a lesser villain for the new monster or villain to explicitly show up as being less monstrous, competent, or recently, less forgiving than he is.

They need to be able to just have villains exist on their own merits more often.

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I think there should be more villains, even ones that are more pragmatic and take their cause more seriously since people don't seem to want Eggman to be much of a threat. I don't care about Eggman getting sidelined since he's not all that interesting of a character to begin with. If there's a better idea in mind bring it on at this point.

But making it some sort of cosmic entity feels too "been there done that". I've always wanted another villain that was closer to the themes of the series. The "Man vs Nature" dynamic. At the same time I don't want them to be related to Eggman at all. 

 

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1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

 

If anything what the series needs are smaller bads. Loyal underlings, mercenaries, unrelated villains and antagonists that don't just die or turn good by the end of their introductory game. Forces showed how skewed things are, with a gaggle of heroes standing around doing nothing and a "villain team-up" that had to be all fakes because they could only find two actual still-evil not-dead villains aside from Eggman himself.

Pretty much.

 

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5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, he was more just the brain of some random timewarping diety that existed in another dimension before the Duke brought him over to harness his power.

How many dimension does this series has now? I kinda lost track now... Okay we have Classic, Adventure, Modern, Boom, Mephiles' and Blaze's dimension. Are there more? 

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9 minutes ago, Rowl said:

How many dimension those this series has now? I kinda lost track now... Okay we have Classic, Adventure, Modern, Boom, Mephiles' and Blaze's dimension. Are there more? 

Uh, does Maginary World count?

Also, the Ifrit.

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8 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Uh, does Maginary World count?

Also, the Ifrit.

Also, there's the Special Stage Dimension where all the Special Stages take place. Fang lives there.

9 hours ago, Rowl said:

How many dimension does this series has now? I kinda lost track now... Okay we have Classic, Adventure, Modern, Boom, Mephiles' and Blaze's dimension. Are there more? 

Adventure is not a dimension, that's just Modern. I don't think Boom was ever established to be one either, it just sorta exists as its own entity separate from everything else.

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You know what would be kind of cool is rival villain groups. Not only are there people signing up for spots in the Eggman Empire but maybe there's other groups looking to fuck the other one over around the corner. 

Like Eggman's loss in Forces just stoked the flames of all the big bads with their underground groups because there was a vacancy on the throne Eggman was just kicked off of. And they all have weird, wacky themes. 

Like one is a group that looks like a bunch of circus freaks. Or another has a demented, Willy Wonka Candy theme. Or another acts like they're a group of superheroes but they do terrible things to people like the Ginyu Force or a Bizzarro version of The Incredibles. Like a Superhero Mafia Family. 

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46 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

You know what would be kind of cool is rival villain groups. Not only are there people signing up for spots in the Eggman Empire but maybe there's other groups looking to fuck the other one over around the corner. 

Like Eggman's loss in Forces just stoked the flames of all the big bads with their underground groups because there was a vacancy on the throne Eggman was just kicked off of. And they all have weird, wacky themes. 

Like one is a group that looks like a bunch of circus freaks. Or another has a demented, Willy Wonka Candy theme. Or another acts like they're a group of superheroes but they do terrible things to people like the Ginyu Force or a Bizzarro version of The Incredibles. Like a Superhero Mafia Family. 

So like My Hero Academia

Spoiler

where groups like Overhaul's Yakuza start popping up after All For One is captured and All Might forced to retire, leaving a power vacuum for other big bad wannabes to attempt to take control.

 

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Elaborating on my idea of a recurring Sonic villain being a Satanic analogue, what if he was a shapeshifter like Neo Metal Sonic? Not to mention he has a sick sense of humor that Sonic is disgusted by.

And of course, he has godlike powers.

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4 hours ago, MainJP said:

Also, there's the Special Stage Dimension where all the Special Stages take place. Fang lives there.

Oh yeah.

4 hours ago, MainJP said:

Fang lives there.

 

I get the feeling that may have been a slight mistranslation referencing the fact that he was fought there more than anything.

3 hours ago, lulzers said:

Elaborating on my idea of a recurring Sonic villain being a Satanic analogue, what if he was a shapeshifter like Neo Metal Sonic?

I think I remember someone talking about how Mephiles could've been that.

Still, a shapeshifter could be neat.

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On 12/18/2018 at 11:41 AM, DabigRG said:

I think the issue there is more that they insist on shoving Eggman into the games as a lesser villain for the new monster or villain to explicitly show up as being less monstrous, competent, or recently, less forgiving than he is.

They need to be able to just have villains exist on their own merits more often.

I am a completely and utterly biased Eggman fan. however, I'll say this is true.

 

That being said, I'd first want them to give a handful of games where Eggman doesn't get pushed to the side and do a decent job as being the villain before having another guy just, you know, acting on their own. To do it now, where he's been the "weak ass villain" as it stands would just say "This other guy is better at being the villain than the main baddie."

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13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

 

I get the feeling that may have been a slight mistranslation referencing the fact that he was fought there more than anything.

 

Doubt it. Since it's in his character description everyone takes "Tresure hunter who lives in Subspace" to mean he lives there.

It's not exactly a stretch when you consider the fact that they contain cities.

 

latest?cb=20160820132038latest?cb=20160820132047

Mania_SpecialStage6.png

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3 hours ago, WittyUsername said:

That being said, I'd first want them to give a handful of games where Eggman doesn't get pushed to the side and do a decent job as being the villain before having another guy just, you know, acting on their own. To do it now, where he's been the "weak ass villain" as it stands would just say "This other guy is better at being the villain than the main baddie."

 

Is he now?

Cause if anything, I'd say the recent games got a habit of hyping up newer villains that were being sponsored by him, only to give them little in the way of a sendof before he hijacks them at the end.

4 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Doubt it. Since it's in his character description everyone takes "Tresure hunter who lives in Subspace" to mean he lives there.

It's not exactly a stretch when you consider the fact that they contain cities.

 

latest?cb=20160820132038latest?cb=20160820132047

Mania_SpecialStage6.png

Oh shoot, really?  Well, that's news to me. I wonder if Mr. Flynn knew about that or not.

 

Still, given that he was translated and known as a Wolf-Weasel for decades, there's precedent for doubt there.

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