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What if there was a Bigger Bad in the Sonic series?

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6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Cause if anything, I'd say the recent games got a habit of hyping up newer villains that were being sponsored by him, only to give them little in the way of a sendof before he hijacks them at the end. 

 

That honestly doesn't make it any better.

Most of us don't want a new villain hogging up the spotlight, at all. Keep the guy as the focal villain throughout the entire thing. Reversing it was cute in Generations, but by Lost World it was already tiring -- didn't help that Lost World felt like nothing at all happened, as it is. Forces? Honestly, the moment I saw Infinite was the moment I tuned out of Forces news. I have no idea, nor really care, what happened there.

Being hijacked at the end -- Eggman is too weak to control his own plans.
Hijacking at the end -- Eggman is too weak to create his own plans and needs someone else to do the dirty work.

It's a lose/lose situation. He needs to remain the villain throughout several games. Once the villain credit has been restored, because he's bordering bankruptcy at the National Baddie Bank, can he afford to let other villains do their own thing.

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23 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah.

I get the feeling that may have been a slight mistranslation referencing the fact that he was fought there more than anything.

I think I remember someone talking about how Mephiles could've been that.

Still, a shapeshifter could be neat.

Imagine if the baddie were to take on a form made specifically for pissing off Sonic. Kinda like Jester is towards Dante in Devil May Cry 3:

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 6:21 PM, DabigRG said:

Oh shoot, really?  Well, that's news to me. I wonder if Mr. Flynn knew about that or not.

 

Still, given that he was translated and known as a Wolf-Weasel for decades, there's precedent for doubt there.

I mean, the Wolf-Weasel thing was just a misconception by fans. The Fang being a Wolf/Jerboa hybrid information was translated straight from the Sonic Jam Official Guide fairly recently. Fang living in the Special Stage Dimension comes straight from the official Japanese Manuel translated by Windii on Sonic Retro.

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On 12/20/2018 at 2:10 AM, WittyUsername said:

That honestly doesn't make it any better.

Most of us don't want a new villain hogging up the spotlight, at all. Keep the guy as the focal villain throughout the entire thing.

It's a lose/lose situation.He needs to remain the villain throughout several games. Once the villain credit has been restored, because he's bordering bankruptcy at the National Baddie Bank, can he afford to let other villains do their own thing.

So, another batch of Colors?

I agree that they need to just focus on having Eggman run the whole show again and not just awkwardly include him with another villain to raise the stakes, but that goes  the other way as well: we can't see to just have other villains be because he's in pretty much every game besides the Storybook series, which were self-contained and out of the norm anyway. That has the two-fer effect of 1, not being able to just let the new villain come into their own(well, outside of pulling a Mephiles or better yet another Chaos situation), and 2, making some people tired of him.

Eggman is one of my favorite Sonic characters--nay, one of my favorite villains period. But I'll agree that having just him or some overt extension of him isn't all that exciting anymore and this series needs to finally build/start an actual Rogue's Gallery to help make things fresher & expand the series; it's one of the reasons I really appreciated Archie.

It doesn't help that we aren't getting Sonic games as frequently or as diversely as we once did a decade ago--it took us four years just to get Forces and even more to get another spinoff people can care about!

On 12/20/2018 at 2:10 AM, WittyUsername said:

Reversing it was cute in Generations, but by Lost World it was already tiring -- didn't help that Lost World felt like nothing at all happened, as it is. 

Wasn't the Time Eater basically just him the whole time?

Also, nothing happened?

On 12/20/2018 at 2:10 AM, WittyUsername said:

Forces? Honestly, the moment I saw Infinite was the moment I tuned out of Forces news. I have no idea, nor really care, what happened there.

 

Well, just sum up(read: state) that situation, Infinite is functionally just a vessel for the Phantom Ruby and was answering to him throughout the whole game,

Spoiler

 

with little indication that he'd change that. 

When he fails to defeat Sonic and/or Buddy for the 3rd time, Eggman essentially hits the recall button on him, which forces him back to the Imperial Tower. Given Eggman himself is once again the Final Boss using the [original] Phantom Ruby at max power, combined with all the trappings of the typical non-Eggman villain, I think it's safe to assume Infinite was probably killed off when it was pried from him or when it was seemingly destroyed in the final attack.

 

.

On 12/20/2018 at 2:10 AM, WittyUsername said:

Being hijacked at the end -- Eggman is too weak to control his own plans.
Hijacking at the end -- Eggman is too weak to create his own plans and needs someone else to do the dirty work.

 

I would say that last part is most definitely not true, buuut....

5 hours ago, MainJP said:

I mean, the Wolf-Weasel thing was just a misconception by fans. The Fang being a Wolf/Jerboa hybrid information was translated straight from the Sonic Jam Official Guide fairly recently. Fang living in the Special Stage Dimension comes straight from the official Japanese Manuel translated by Windii on Sonic Retro.

No, he was initially named Nack the Weasel in at least the American version of Triple Trouble and I think the name stuck until Fighters didn't bother to change it.

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50 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

No, he was initially named Nack the Weasel in at least the American version of Triple Trouble and I think the name stuck until Fighters didn't bother to change it.

Hm? I meant the concept of Fang being half wolf/weasel. That’s the misconception, one that stemmed from a Japanese fan making profiles that revealed that Fang was half-wolf. Westerners took that info to mean he was a wolf/weasel hybrid when it in fact turned out to be “wolf/jerboa”. Then the Sonic Jam official guide surfaced from a user on Retro which had the same info.

Fang being from the Special Dimension isn’t a misconception, it’s official information that comes straight from the Japanese Manuel for Sonic & Tails 2/Triple Trouble was my point. Translation by someone who’s fluent in Japanese .

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44 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Fang being from the Special Dimension isn’t a misconception, it’s official information that comes straight from the Japanese Manuel for Sonic & Tails 2/Triple Trouble was my point. Translation by someone who’s fluent in Japanese .

Oh, okay. That's the distinction I needed to know.

45 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Hm? I meant the concept of Fang being half wolf/weasel. That’s the misconception, one that stemmed from a Japanese fan making profiles that revealed that Fang was half-wolf. Westerners took that info to mean he was a wolf/weasel hybrid when it in fact turned out to be “wolf/jerboa”. Then the Sonic Jam official guide surfaced from a user on Retro which had the same info.

Fang being from the Special Dimension isn’t a misconception, it’s official information that comes straight from the Japanese Manuel for Sonic & Tails 2/Triple Trouble was my point. Translation by someone who’s fluent in Japanese .

Wait, so it was a fan site that claimed he was part wolf...which is why he is officially a wolf-jerboa?

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8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

Wait, so it was a fan site that claimed he was part wolf...which is why he is officially a wolf-jerboa?

Like I said, Fang being a wolf/jerboa hybrid canonically was from the official Japanese guide for Sonic The Fighters (incorrectly said Sonic Jam in my previous post), something Japanese fans already knew about. There’s an article about it on here.

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/08/mistaken-identity-fang-and-bean-are-not-what-you-think-they-are/

 

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6 minutes ago, MainJP said:

Like I said, Fang being a wolf/jerboa hybrid canonically was from the official Japanese guide for Sonic The Fighters (incorrectly said Sonic Jam in my previous post), something Japanese fans already knew about. There’s an article about it on here.

https://www.sonicstadium.org/2017/08/mistaken-identity-fang-and-bean-are-not-what-you-think-they-are/

 

That's not what I was asking there, but whatever.

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Getting back on topic, why add in a big bad who's background actions dictate the actions of everything else when Eggman already is that? GUN will take action because of him as well as characters like Fang, infinite, and Metal Sonic, who himself is a villain who exists as a direct result of Eggman's actions.

I mean, consider, instead of putting something in play that's bigger than the main antagonist, use the main antagonist to put the lesser antagonists into action. Just with Fang, Infinite, and Metal Sonic I can easily come up with recurring villains who always someway tie back into Eggman and even the Nature versus Industry battle. With Fang you have a mercenary who could very easily refurbish trashed Eggman robots to use for his own ends or even going after Sonic, a case of Nature adapting Industry as it's own. With Infinite you could very well have him and the Jackal Squad as persistent threats hunting down Sonic and friends as hired by Eggman in exchange for the power that Infinite seems to so desperately desire. This in turn creates a scenario of Nature being tamed by Industry. Lastly, Metal is every bit the persistent antagonist who lives for no other purpose than to kill Sonic and prove himself the superior blue hedgehog. This becomes a case of Industry trying to be superior to Nature. The best part is, with the way that I present it it always ties back to Eggman and his rivalry with Sonic and his actions both directly and indirectly put the other antagonists into motion with him still being the endgame villain. To an extent it's why I like the idea of the Egg Bosses from Archie, but I think to make the world a little more diverse you need to have greater separation between the main antagonist and minor antagonists. I mean if you want another example take Dr. Fukurokov and make him a rival to Eggman to sell Nature trying to beat Industry at it's own game, or the opposite of the Metal Sonic example to an extent, wit hhim going after Sonic and friends to prove that he is the better genius scientist by doing what Eggman has yet to. Like this you end up with him taking action because of Eggman's existence, being a minor antagonist, being his own villain, and not undermining the importance of Eggman as the main antagonist or even the Bigger Bad who causes everyone else to act the way they do.

So in summary, why make a new villain to usurp Eggman when you can instead use/make existing/new minor villains who act because of Eggman for one reason or another?

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2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Getting back on topic, why add in a big bad who's background actions dictate the actions of everything else when Eggman already is that? GUN will take action because of him as well as characters like Fang, infinite, and Metal Sonic, who himself is a villain who exists as a direct result of Eggman's actions.

 

Fang was definitely his own thing, though.

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

The best part is, with the way that I present it it always ties back to Eggman and his rivalry with Sonic and his actions both directly and indirectly put the other antagonists into motion with him still being the endgame villain. To an extent it's why I like the idea of the Egg Bosses from Archie, but I think to make the world a little more diverse you need to have greater separation between the main antagonist and minor antagonists.

Yeah, they were pretty great.

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

So in summary, why make a new villain to usurp Eggman when you can instead use/make existing/new minor villains who act because of Eggman for one reason or another?

...I mean, you're definitely onto something; it's just that that's generally been the case anyway, albiet with many mixed results.

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