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How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?


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32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not going to say that one should be a clone of the other or they should be biologically related or whatever, but like...the whole point of SA2 was a Hero/Dark mirror kind of thing? And the game was explicitly comparing Sonic and Shadow, saying they look alike and have the same abilities to the point that Shadow inadvertently framed Sonic, and they develop this rivalry over which one is real and which is fake?

 

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Like there is (rather, was) absolutely, 100%, no denying, a deliberate thematic connection between the two. How much of a physical connection there should be is debatable, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that there be something, rather than deciding that all of that is a coincidence and they're two completely unrelated people who just happen to be very similar.

To respond to this i'll frame the last part of your statement

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that is a coincidence and they're two completely unrelated people who just happen to be very similar.

No that's exactly it? This is a familiarly common trope in fiction, and a fairly common tactic in advertising,  in reality their similarities bare no cosmic meaning and only serve as a means to tell a story , and the two similar people ultimately end up as two very different people. I'm not gonna deny that they had the whole hero/dark , good/evil thing going but it was kind of meaningless. There were no moral battles being fought between sonic and shadow. Heck shadow doesn't even care to learn sonic's name untill the end they both had different goals and just happened to clash. This sort of thing actually happens a lot in shounen manga which sonic is influenced by , particularly at that time. ( A matter of fact one of sonic's main manga influences may have just released a movie where that exact thing happens ). Its a common literary devices use by entertainment the world over to get you interested in a thing only to them show you a different story. Heck to put in perspective some more, sonic has little to no influence over shadow in SA2, Amy and Rouge are the ones who convince him to stop being a dick.

The hero and dark thing was just advertising that didn't really lead anywhere, its not unique its fairly common. And heck Sega/sonic team did it themselves again with infinite. Or one of my favorite instances of this being Dante in Devil May Cry 4 being positioned as the rival of the protagonist nero, ultimately ending up a figurative and litteral playful(ly violent ) uncle. I guess DMC4 might not the best example because it turns out the main protagonist is related to secondary protagonist.... but it doesn't even up bearing the story significance they imply rather , just an explanation for some form of gameplay they wanted to do with a certain sword. And is just now coming to possibly mean something several years later in DMC5

Its pretty common and ultimately means nothing. Heck they made it mean less by having Shadow the hedgehog after the fact say that the ruins in the Space Colony arc are from his people and were on earth for a while, so not only did it mean nothing at the the time ultimately they made it mean less.

" These characters are simular find out their mystery " there was no mystery they just wanted to sell you a character

 

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32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not going to say that one should be a clone of the other or they should be biologically related or whatever, but like...the whole point of SA2 was a Hero/Dark mirror kind of thing? And the game was explicitly comparing Sonic and Shadow, saying they look alike and have the same abilities to the point that Shadow inadvertently framed Sonic, and they develop this rivalry over which one is real and which is fake?

Like there is (rather, was) absolutely, 100%, no denying, a deliberate thematic connection between the two. How much of a physical connection there should be is debatable, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that there be something, rather than deciding that all of that is a coincidence and they're two completely unrelated people who just happen to be very similar.

I don't think Sonic would care if Shadow was his brother or a clone or whatever so I'm not really sure what it adds aside from justifying why Shadow has the same abilities as Sonic in the lore. I have a hard time even caring as far as that though since Shadow isn't the first rival to go blow for blow with Sonic ability wise and he wouldn't even be be the last before the decade was over. A lot of characters can do the stuff Sonic does. The interesting part are they way these different personalities clash, so by and large focus on that over any connective lore tissue. 

If you must, throw in a handwave about Gerald discovering the Super Sonic prophecy in his research of the emeralds and trying to emulate that power early on. I wouldn't take it any further than that, since the elements that make Shadow distinct from Metal Sonic are why people like him in the first place.

 

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40 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Its pretty common and ultimately means nothing.

Sounds like pretty shitty writing. I'd rather they...not do that.

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Just now, Diogenes said:

Sounds like pretty shitty writing. I'd rather they...not do that.

One this is a thing SA2 already did, so its to late for that. And two I don't think its inherently shitty in itself , you can get interesting stories out of a case of mistaken identity and that mistaken identity ultimately not meaning much. But i will say sa2 never really did anything with it and it never...meant anything.  It was meant to sell you a new shiny toy

It is what it is

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5 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

" These characters are simular find out their mystery " there was no mystery they just wanted to sell you a character

I think I get what you're saying with Sonic and Shadow not being "bloodline related" (so correct me where I'm wrong), but I'm pretty sure there was more going on with the game than just them trying to sell a character and everything else being a bait and switch.

The mystery between the two and how they're similar are their connections with the Robotnik family and their links with the Chaos Emeralds, and that goes even deeper with the prophecy conjured up by the echidnas / emeralds. Their fates both lead up to practically the same situations. There's no denying that. You can't just be "some dude" who just happens to share these very specific circumstances after how their events unfolded. I feel like that in of itself would be silly writing that "some random guy" just happens to be apart of every situation happening yet has no relations to any of it.

About your point "Sonic nor Shadow having no baring on each other story wise", I'm not sure about that. I mean, Shadow literally saved Sonic's life by passing knowledge of Chaos Control, a major plot point for SA2. Shadow also comes around and puts into perspective that there're other people like him, I.E. Sonic, and that "he's no ordinary hedgehog" after witnessing what Sonic's capable, fighting for others, when before he was very distant and thought no one in the world matters. He even makes huge sacrifices for everyone like fighting for Sonic and Knuckles against the Biolizard and when performing that giant Chaos Control warp knowing full well he could end up losing his life. If that's not influential, Idk what is, then. Clearly these two characters are crossing grey areas among each other.

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SA2's story went the way it did because they wanted to emphasise how super special hedgehogs are. There's no connection between the two most powerful animals, hedgehogs are just that awesome. 

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40 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

I think I get what you're saying with Sonic and Shadow not being "bloodline related" (so correct me where I'm wrong), but I'm pretty sure there was more going on with the game than just them trying to sell a character and everything else being a bait and switch.

 

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The mystery between the two and how they're similar are their connections with the Robotnik family and their links with the Chaos Emeralds, and that goes even deeper with the prophecy conjured up by the echidnas / emeralds. Their fates both lead up to practically the same situations. There's no denying that. You can't just be "some dude" who just happens to share these very specific circumstances after how their events unfolded. I feel like that in of itself would be silly writing that "some random guy" just happens to be apart of every situation happening yet has no relations to any of it.

There is denying that, those are two different perspectives. On both the chaos emeralds and the robotnik family.

Heck sonic doesn't even have a connection to the robotnik family, he only has a connection to eggman. And on shadow's end, his connection to Gerald and maria is completely different as well as the chaos emeralds. There is no fates, only sonic and Knuckles had " fates " , shadow is just some guy who happens to exist. You are reading far too deep int o a story that isn't really that deep.

Edit: Wanted to also mention, shadow has no connection to the echidna prophecy and actively go through means to clarify that he doesn't in later games. Shadow is some dude who happens to exist

40 minutes ago, StriCNYN3 said:

About your point "Sonic nor Shadow having no baring on each other story wise", I'm not sure about that. I mean, Shadow literally saved Sonic's life by passing knowledge of Chaos Control, a major plot point for SA2.

 

I still stand by that? Literally no interaction they have matters until the last one. And even then he didn't pass on knoweledge of chaos control, because outside of one bad video game that retconned itself... he doesn't do it. There was no knowledge passed on it was  a Deux Ex machina used poorly.

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Shadow also comes around and puts into perspective that there're other people like him, I.E. Sonic, and that "he's no ordinary hedgehog" after witnessing what Sonic's capable, fighting for others, when before he was very distant and thought no one in the world matters

That was meaningless because if it weren't for amy and rouge shadow would have let everyone die. All he did was note " Oh hey that one hedgehog could fight kinda ok, that was neat " that's all that meant.

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. He even makes huge sacrifices for everyone like fighting for Sonic and Knuckles against the Biolizard and when performing that giant Chaos Control warp knowing full well he could end up losing his life. If that's not influential, Idk what is, then. Clearly these two characters are crossing grey areas among each other.

Because rouge and amy reminded him of someone who actually did have an effect on him, maria , and the memory of her convinced him to do the right thing.

Sonic Adventure 2 is one of my favorite games, you are inserting a memory of a better plot than the one that it actually exists.  They aren't really that connected, they wanted to sell you an edgy toy

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7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

To respond to this i'll frame the last part of your statement

No that's exactly it? This is a familiarly common trope in fiction, and a fairly common tactic in advertising,  in reality their similarities bare no cosmic meaning and only serve as a means to tell a story , and the two similar people ultimately end up as two very different people. I'm not gonna deny that they had the whole hero/dark , good/evil thing going but it was kind of meaningless. There were no moral battles being fought between sonic and shadow. Heck shadow doesn't even care to learn sonic's name untill the end they both had different goals and just happened to clash. This sort of thing actually happens a lot in shounen manga which sonic is influenced by , particularly at that time. ( A matter of fact one of sonic's main manga influences may have just released a movie where that exact thing happens ). Its a common literary devices use by entertainment the world over to get you interested in a thing only to them show you a different story. Heck to put in perspective some more, sonic has little to no influence over shadow in SA2, Amy and Rouge are the ones who convince him to stop being a dick.

The hero and dark thing was just advertising that didn't really lead anywhere, its not unique its fairly common. And heck Sega/sonic team did it themselves again with infinite. Or one of my favorite instances of this being Dante in Devil May Cry 4 being positioned as the rival of the protagonist nero, ultimately ending up a figurative and litteral playful(ly violent ) uncle. I guess DMC4 might not the best example because it turns out the main protagonist is related to secondary protagonist.... but it doesn't even up bearing the story significance they imply rather , just an explanation for some form of gameplay they wanted to do with a certain sword. And is just now coming to possibly mean something several years later in DMC5

Its pretty common and ultimately means nothing. Heck they made it mean less by having Shadow the hedgehog after the fact say that the ruins in the Space Colony arc are from his people and were on earth for a while, so not only did it mean nothing at the the time ultimately they made it mean less.

" These characters are simular find out their mystery " there was no mystery they just wanted to sell you a character

 

Uh what? Don't you mean Vergil, nero has no dynamic with Dante.

Anyways sonic and shadow were meant to be connected by fate of past and present.

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13 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I feel like " Lets make Shadow quite literally a clone of sonic " is a really bad idea that should stop being suggested? I dunno feels like getting rid of... one of the entire points people like the character, he's kind of his own thing and can do his own stuff. Even though they were thematically pitted against each other in SA2 it was coincidence they never had any real significant meaning to each other and shadow's games goes out of the way to make that extra clear. I feel like " what if a clone " is just a severe lack of imagination.

 

In-universe, I agree. Part of what makes the similarities between him & Sonic interesting is that fact that not only is he not just clone or even an alternate universe counterpart, but an illegal genetic experiment that's been around over 40 years beforehand. The only real explanation for that precision is the Hidden Palace Mural and that's more Fridge Brilliance than anything the games put a fine point on, to my knowledge.

With that said, it's been made abundantly clear out of universe that Shadow was the final result of the conceptual "Dark Sonic."

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1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Uh what? Don't you mean Vergil, nero has no dynamic with Dante.

  Not to get off topic, but yes he doesHalf of the entire game of DMC4 was about it.

It’s similar to the very dynamic Vergil has, or rather similar to the dynamic Knuckles once had with Sonic.

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You could probably add a few more CG cutscenes to Heroes, two per team at minimum, that help flesh out the characters and dynamics a little more.

Team Sonic and Team Rose in particular could've used this.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

  Not to get off topic, but yes he doesHalf of the entire game of DMC4 was about it.

It’s similar to the very dynamic Vergil has, or rather similar to the dynamic Knuckles once had with Sonic.

Uncle Sonic doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

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I see the discussion reached "Shadow Singularity".

Personally, I believe that "brevity is a soul of the wit",  so here are my ideas.

lore

Basics: Sonic really doesn't have that complicated lore, every game has it's own addition to the world and that works fine. Just establish basics (like the name of the god damn planet) and stick to it. Preferably you pick something that will please fans (I still think Mobius is the best name), but hey, Eggman won over Robotnik and franchise didn't collapse... not because of that anyway.

Dream: Plan in advance. HIre competent writer and writer epic lore for Sonic... and don't share it with us. Make it Dark Souls-like part of the background. Some people like cutscenes, some don't, but if ruins of ancient civilization in Game A will match something established in Game B, it will be an awesome little touch. Simple example: how awesome would be if  Sonic Heroes or Shadow the Game had levels with Babilon ruins in them, before the release of Riders.

gameplay

Basics: Stop releasing train wrecks. I know game development is hard, but you are an iconic franchise that once shaped the history of gaming and remained popular to this day. Act like one.

Dream: Work on bringing more playable characters, even if they Sonic with little gimmick without a story. And at least give a try for Chaos Garden.(Obviously there are more important things, but many people talked about it in depth. I'm suggesting what would improve even 'mediocre' games like Forces or Sonic 4)
Not that I want to bring up Shadow Singularity, but while Ultimate Lifeform was a lovely addition in Forces, it would be better if I could play him in more than 5 of 30 level

narrative

Basics: While writing a line ask yourself 1 "Am I progressing narrative/ fleshing out character/ making a fun banter or meeting some imaginary quota line Sonic Forces in-level dialogues.

Dreams: Try to make me FEEL something. Curiosity about this new glowing "Tikal" orb. Sadness over a fallen friend. The excitement of the fight with the upcoming giant boss as Crush 40 plays in the background.

characters

Basics: Consistency and respect for characters so many people like. (ex. Eggman is a beloved villain, stop making him a joke.)

Dream: Ending to Adventure 2. Let sometimes characters just...talk. Act like casual human beings.

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6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

In-universe, I agree. Part of what makes the similarities between him & Sonic interesting is that fact that not only is he not just clone or even an alternate universe counterpart, but an illegal genetic experiment that's been around over 40 years beforehand. The only real explanation for that precision is the Hidden Palace Mural and that's more Fridge Brilliance than anything the games put a fine point on, to my knowledge.

With that said, it's been made abundantly clear out of universe that Shadow was the final result of the conceptual "Dark Sonic."

Sonic being A Darker Version of the sonic concept is obvious and something he later evovled from just being, i'm not denying that. What I am saying is, in the end they weren't really that similar... and got less similar. And those differences are why people enjoy him, and trying to connect the two by literally making them related , as a solution I have heard for shadow's complications in some speculative circles is removing part of that unique element from his character along with being... I dunno...really creative. I'm not saying you can't have characters related to other characters, I fully believe that in the original concept of 06 mephilies and all those demons were supposed to strait up be super old black arms and i think that fills in plot holes and makes that story better. Just not everyone needs to be secretly related, not everything is fate... and I kind of think that's the point of shadow's story?

Shadow isn't this fated being divined to say the day. He's existence is messy and still a bit of a mystery, despite of all that he does this best he can. He might be the most different from everyone due to his creation and his temperament. He isn't divined from some mural, he isn't a prince from another world, he isn't some guardian. He's like no one else and often thinks himself a monster because of his creation. But he still chooses to do the right thing, and might be the most selfless out of all of them. And that's... I dunno i feel like that's kind of a point. Satan tells him he's a monster and people will betray the shit out of him and he's tells him to screw off and he will keep doing the right thng

Keep Shadow a weird asshole

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3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Dream: Plan in advance. HIre competent writer and writer epic lore for Sonic... and don't share it with us. Make it Dark Souls-like part of the background. Some people like cutscenes, some don't, but if ruins of ancient civilization in Game A will match something established in Game B, it will be an awesome little touch. Simple example: how awesome would be if  Sonic Heroes or Shadow the Game had levels with Babilon ruins in them, before the release of Riders.

I think this is a neat idea, a bit difficult because you gotta plan for some stuff ahead of time and sometimes creative ideas don't quite work like that. But I like this

 

3 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:


Dream: Ending to Adventure 2. Let sometimes characters just...talk. Act like casual human beings.

I would like to amend this.

Dream: Let characters not like each other.  I"m not saying everyone's best friends, but It would be neat and make the relationships a bit more dynamic if they were allowed to not like eachother. A friend of mine thought of two interesting hypothetical scenarios.

 

Some characters not being fond of silver. She thought it would be interesting if some folks actually took issue with him coming back in time and interfering with the past and more so suggesting that future is a bit predefined and that they cannot change it for themselves. Others open to his help , others seeing him even being here as a mistake. She suggested tails as being one of those people, just kind of fearing what time travel could do to the frabirc of the universe or something like that. Tails giving him a stern talking to about he's irresponsible. Things like that.

Senario: Two, Blaze and Rouge do not like each other, and Blaze doesn't like that Shadow and Rouge hang out. Friendo, really like Treasure Team Tango. And she thought it would be interesting that Rouge and blaze just due to personality and morality differences ... just didn't like each other in general. In her head canon ( and mind tbh ) rouge kind of grew up poor and that's how she learned to steal so good. So its like Street kid on the come up Vs Honorable Princess type thing. And Blaze, again basing this on Treasure team tango, Sees shadow as a guy who could be the leader of a lot more people ( In her head in the future shadow becomes the immortal leader of Gun and Gun becomes an intergalactic space police force for peace. I kind of like shadow being coming a loner who lives for ever. Actually becoming a 1000 years old and loosing track of his moral code. But its her idea ) Blaze see's a sort of leader of men " royal " air about him and see's he has potential, but needs to keep better friends. Obviously rouge thinks differently and she's a day one. So so more animosity comes from there too.

I feel like having scenarios where characters personalities clash in ways that are more than just fighting would be kind of neat, expand the characterizations and the world itself if used well.

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I think this is a neat idea, a bit difficult because you gotta plan for some stuff ahead of time and sometimes creative ideas don't quite work like that. But I like this

 

I would like to amend this.

Dream: Let characters not like each other.  I"m not saying everyone's best friends, but It would be neat and make the relationships a bit more dynamic if they were allowed to not like eachother. A friend of mine thought of two interesting hypothetical scenarios.

 

Some characters not being fond of silver. She thought it would be interesting if some folks actually took issue with him coming back in time and interfering with the past and more so suggesting that future is a bit predefined and that they cannot change it for themselves. Others open to his help , others seeing him even being here as a mistake. She suggested tails as being one of those people, just kind of fearing what time travel could do to the frabirc of the universe or something like that. Tails giving him a stern talking to about he's irresponsible. Things like that.

Senario: Two, Blaze and Rouge do not like each other, and Blaze doesn't like that Shadow and Rouge hang out. Friendo, really like Treasure Team Tango. And she thought it would be interesting that Rouge and blaze just due to personality and morality differences ... just didn't like each other in general. In her head canon ( and mind tbh ) rouge kind of grew up poor and that's how she learned to steal so good. So its like Street kid on the come up Vs Honorable Princess type thing. And Blaze, again basing this on Treasure team tango, Sees shadow as a guy who could be the leader of a lot more people ( In her head in the future shadow becomes the immortal leader of Gun and Gun becomes an intergalactic space police force for peace. I kind of like shadow being coming a loner who lives for ever. Actually becoming a 1000 years old and loosing track of his moral code. But its her idea ) Blaze see's a sort of leader of men " royal " air about him and see's he has potential, but needs to keep better friends. Obviously rouge thinks differently and she's a day one. So so more animosity comes from there too.

I feel like having scenarios where characters personalities clash in ways that are more than just fighting would be kind of neat, expand the characterizations and the world itself if used well.

I had a similar thought process in regards to Shadow and Blaze, but admittedly with some more tension between the two (not the romantic kind). Like Both have their own ideas of justice, and their own views on their respective powers. Maybe Shadow views his powers as dangerous, but also a tool that is ultimately only as evil as the person using it, based on his experiences in the ARK and the present day. After all, Chaos Powers range from utility to offense and are generally seemingly controllable for the most part, and he would be the kind of person who believes that he needs to be willing to use it in sometimes brutal ways to ensure a better future, even if it means being seen as a monster in the present (since he probably doesn't care about his reputation to any significant degree). He may also to an extent see his association with Rouge and Omega as being a partial case of them being people who don't really care about his past and also a twisted form of punishment; he nearly became a monster, so he should work to control thieves and psychopaths as a form of penance, mixed together with a understated sense of camraderie in how they all represent the darker side of their world in some form.

By contrast, Blaze's perception of her powers might be the belief that it needs to be kept under strict control at all times, since fire by it's nature is difficult to truly control even in small amounts and can easily spread beyond one's control if used recklessly or seemingly without care. This can also be combined with possible fear of losing control due to past events that result in her becoming distant from others, like maybe she lost control and burned someone. Power for her is variable, and is never truly in your grasp no matter how much you might believe otherwise, and thus it's better to keep it under strict control than to let it loose just because it might be helpful. The combination of her stricter beliefs, royal upbringing and sense of justice might result in someone with a very judgmental perception of chaotic people, regardless of their ideals, and thus makes her slow to trust. This in addition to what you mentioned would make the relationship between her and Shadow extremely tense, especially since she does think Shadow can do much better but at the same time is distrustful due to his willingness to be ruthless.

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I like the idea of characters having clashing personalities, but it's hard making it feel genuine when the series goes out of it's way of portraying everyone as amicable and friendly with each other.

 

I like the idea of Rouge and Blaze being foils to each other, but I can't wrap my head on how you'd make that feel genuine and not contrived.

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When it comes to Gameplay I think Sega really needs to start following the Nintendo Route. Take your time on the next mainline game instead of starting it after the next game in line is finished and getting ready for release. Release some third party spinoffs that Sonic Team isn't heavily involved in and have Sonic Team spend more time focusing on the next mainline game.

I know Sega wants a Sonic every year but letting your games actually have a development time would help a lot.

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8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

I fully believe that in the original concept of 06 mephilies and all those demons were supposed to strait up be super old black arms and i think that fills in plot holes and makes that story better. Just not everyone needs to be secretly related, not everything is fate... and I kind of think that's the point of shadow's story?

 

That does make a fair degree sense. They were definitely emphasizing Iblis over him or especially Solaris marketing wise, from what I remember.

3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I like the idea of characters having clashing personalities, but it's hard making it feel genuine when the series goes out of it's way of portraying everyone as amicable and friendly with each other.

 

I like the idea of Rouge and Blaze being foils to each other, but I can't wrap my head on how you'd make that feel genuine and not contrived.

Almost any use of Blaze, Silver, and in some ways Shadow is gonna feel a little contrived unless you explicitly tailor the plot around their inclusion. There are some exceptions to the rule, but that's kinda how it feels.

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

When it comes to Gameplay I think Sega really needs to start following the Nintendo Route. Take your time on the next mainline game instead of starting it after the next game in line is finished and getting ready for release. Release some third party spinoffs that Sonic Team isn't heavily involved in and have Sonic Team spend more time focusing on the next mainline game.

I know Sega wants a Sonic every year but letting your games actually have a development time would help a lot.

Yeah, I feel that's kinda what they need to go back to doing.

Part of the reason Team Sonic Racing caught some eyes is because it's FINALLY another game that's not a high-profile main series title and openly bases itself on a silly premise in favor of just having other playable characters on consoles again.

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44 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Almost any use of Blaze, Silver, and in some ways Shadow is gonna feel a little contrived unless you explicitly tailor the plot around their inclusion. There are some exceptions to the rule, but that's kinda how it feels.

Yea, that's the gist of it. Some characters just can't be used unless you acknowledge their story circumstances or just ignore them entirely but then you're basically stripping them down to their most basic traits.

The whole era of simplifying the narrative and gameplay just made it harder to justify the existences of certain characters.

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7 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I had a similar thought process in regards to Shadow and Blaze, but admittedly with some more tension between the two (not the romantic kind). Like Both have their own ideas of justice, and their own views on their respective powers. Maybe Shadow views his powers as dangerous, but also a tool that is ultimately only as evil as the person using it, based on his experiences in the ARK and the present day. After all, Chaos Powers range from utility to offense and are generally seemingly controllable for the most part, and he would be the kind of person who believes that he needs to be willing to use it in sometimes brutal ways to ensure a better future, even if it means being seen as a monster in the present (since he probably doesn't care about his reputation to any significant degree). He may also to an extent see his association with Rouge and Omega as being a partial case of them being people who don't really care about his past and also a twisted form of punishment; he nearly became a monster, so he should work to control thieves and psychopaths as a form of penance, mixed together with a understated sense of camraderie in how they all represent the darker side of their world in some form.

By contrast, Blaze's perception of her powers might be the belief that it needs to be kept under strict control at all times, since fire by it's nature is difficult to truly control even in small amounts and can easily spread beyond one's control if used recklessly or seemingly without care. This can also be combined with possible fear of losing control due to past events that result in her becoming distant from others, like maybe she lost control and burned someone. Power for her is variable, and is never truly in your grasp no matter how much you might believe otherwise, and thus it's better to keep it under strict control than to let it loose just because it might be helpful. The combination of her stricter beliefs, royal upbringing and sense of justice might result in someone with a very judgmental perception of chaotic people, regardless of their ideals, and thus makes her slow to trust. This in addition to what you mentioned would make the relationship between her and Shadow extremely tense, especially since she does think Shadow can do much better but at the same time is distrustful due to his willingness to be ruthless.

That's neat , but I would make the argument that I can't quite see shadow as cruel? He's kind of a dick, and he'll murder, but ussually his murder targets are in the category of  " Kind of have to murder or everyone dies " or " Murder to mitigate more mayhem on an extreme scale ". Otherwise... he's not really that murder-ey, and that's the part I think that would be appreciated . I'm not saying ship blaze and shadow, or do if you want I don't care, but I think she would see him and his ability to make some hard decisions and still be rather lenient. At least in my perception she would see these qualities and think he could make a great large scale leader, just that his friends might not be the best influences or holding him back some.  And that would sort of fuel more animosity towards rouge a bit. And she might occasionally try to take it upon herself to drop shadow some nuggets of leadership advice from time to time. He wouldn't respond, but she figured he used the advice.

3 hours ago, SBR2 said:

 

I know Sega wants a Sonic every year but letting your games actually have a development time would help a lot.

This, unfortunately sega never seems to get it

37 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That does make a fair degree sense. They were definitely emphasizing Iblis over him or especially Solaris marketing wise, from what I remember.

I think there were a few connections to other sonic things in that game that didn't make it in,  that contributed to the hot mess that is that plot

37 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Almost any use of Blaze, Silver, and in some ways Shadow is gonna feel a little contrived unless you explicitly tailor the plot around their inclusion. There are some exceptions to the rule, but that's kinda how it feels.

I don't think its that Dire For shadow and Blaze, depending. Silver, yeah he feels hella contrived at all times.

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@Shadowlax Well yeah I agree on that point. I wasn’t saying that I think Shadow was that cruel, but I honestly do believe that if push came to shove and there were no better options that he could think of, he wouldn’t hesitate to be much more brutal and cruel toward evil doers for the sake of a greater good. He wouldn’t LIKE it, or enjoy it in any measure, but he would be the type to shove his personal feelings aside if he had to.

Then again, this might just be the result of my own view of our world and the dictator wannabes sprouting up all over coloring a lot of the media I enjoy, and imagining expies of them existing in the Sonicverse (maybe post SA2, where the scare of the ARK degraded trust in GUN and global efforts for peace, thus resulting in dictator wannabes showing up to grab power and rail against internationalism in exchange for nationalism and fascism, thus Shadow would be fairly cynical of the world being filled with good people due to this normalization of evil). Make of that what you will.

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12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I think there were a few connections to other sonic things in that game that didn't make it in,  that contributed to the hot mess that is that plot

 

Is that so?

I know the game was supposed to have playable Super Sonic, the entire soundtrack, and a Metal Sonic. There was also a small rumor that Cream was gonna be in the game at one point, though I don't really see that being anything more than just a wonder.

What else is there, in this case? 

12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I don't think its that Dire For shadow and Blaze, depending. Silver, yeah he feels hella contrived at all times.

Shadow kinda needs a bigger story with a distinctively dark, dangerous, or otherwise monstrous villain and a mysterious backstory in order to really work. Either that or a very simple story that allows for a lot of characters and/or events, though they've only done that a select few times.

Blaze was custom built from the get go with her own world, Emerald set, Super Form, and variable supporting cast to contend with separate from the rest of the continuity; as such, both of her main appearances are explicit a crossover stories. There's also the matter of her arguably being even more overpowered than either hedgehog is, though I blame that more on fan hype(which can also apply to Shadow) and the zigzag of the Archie comics.

Silver is...weird. On one hand, I will contend is a little more contrived in theory due to him being time travel, which is really easy to lose track of and get very confused with. On the other hand, though, he's had more controlled portrayals than either of those two have and rarely acts as the sole resolver of a problem. And that in with just how frequently the space time continuum gets infringed upon or outright fucked up by Eggman, Nega, and other Monsters of the Week(most recently, the Phantom Ruby), there's a little more wiggle room to fit him in wherever.

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18 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

  Not to get off topic, but yes he doesHalf of the entire game of DMC4 was about it.

It’s similar to the very dynamic Vergil has, or rather similar to the dynamic Knuckles once had with Sonic.

Shadow is Vergil. 

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

That's neat , but I would make the argument that I can't quite see shadow as cruel? He's kind of a dick, and he'll murder, but ussually his murder targets are in the category of  " Kind of have to murder or everyone dies " or " Murder to mitigate more mayhem on an extreme scale ". Otherwise... he's not really that murder-ey, and that's the part I think that would be appreciated . I'm not saying ship blaze and shadow, or do if you want I don't care, but I think she would see him and his ability to make some hard decisions and still be rather lenient. At least in my perception she would see these qualities and think he could make a great large scale leader, just that his friends might not be the best influences or holding him back some.  And that would sort of fuel more animosity towards rouge a bit. And she might occasionally try to take it upon herself to drop shadow some nuggets of leadership advice from time to time. He wouldn't respond, but she figured he used the advice.

This, unfortunately sega never seems to get it

I think there were a few connections to other sonic things in that game that didn't make it in,  that contributed to the hot mess that is that plot

I don't think its that Dire For shadow and Blaze, depending. Silver, yeah he feels hella contrived at all times.

His profile sets him up as the "dark" side of Sonic. Him being cruel and ruthless to his enemies and rivals is a natural trait he should carry in all his appearances. Your forgetting Shadow is a loner and a pragmatic force of good already. 

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7 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I like the idea of characters having clashing personalities, but it's hard making it feel genuine when the series goes out of it's way of portraying everyone as amicable and friendly with each other.

Characters can clash and become distant with one another just as easily as they can become friends. Just give them goals that are opposite of one another. 

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