How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

4 hours ago, Dash Speed said:

Shadow is Vergil. 

Shadow being another character wasn’t really my point.

 

[Kuzu]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

Characters can clash and become distant with one another just as easily as they can become friends. Just give them goals that are opposite of one another. 

And that's true, but most of these characters never have much more complex motives than "Fight the bad guy and save the day" . You can have characters with clashing traits, but that would require the series fleshing out these characters beyond the basic archetypes they're written as most of the time.

 

But assuming that were to happen, I could see Rouge's laid-back and frivolous personality clashing with Blaze's more serious minded and focused mindset.  

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But assuming that were to happen, I could see Rouge's laid-back and frivolous personality clashing with Blaze's more serious minded and focused mindset.  

I mean there's an arc in Sonic Universe about this so not only is it more than doable, it's been done. It's simple storytelling stuff. 

The idea that these characters need to fit into arbitrary hero and villain roles to clash is ironically reminiscent of the shonen everyone complains about this series cribbing from. 

[Kuzu]

Just now, Wraith said:

I mean there's an arc in Sonic Universe about this so not only is it more than doable, it's been done. It's simple storytelling stuff. 

I know, but I have a few problems with that arc namely that Rouge seemed willingly ok with plunging another world into chaos. I don't mind her being a just a bit selfish, but I think there is a point before it becomes a negative trait and makes her unlikable. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In all fairness, that’s a common complaint of Rouge in Treasure Team Tango even by folks who liked that arc.

But it is a good example of pulling off the dynamic with characters that, prior til that point, have never formally interacted with each other in every other medium, including the Main games.

[Multikaris]

40 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I know, but I have a few problems with that arc namely that Rouge seemed willingly ok with plunging another world into chaos. I don't mind her being a just a bit selfish, but I think there is a point before it becomes a negative trait and makes her unlikable. 

Though she’s nowhere nearly as sadistic and vile as her Fleetway counterpart, I agree. 

 

More character combinations is a good deal.

[SBR2]

48 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I know, but I have a few problems with that arc namely that Rouge seemed willingly ok with plunging another world into chaos. I don't mind her being a just a bit selfish, but I think there is a point before it becomes a negative trait and makes her unlikable. 

As much as I love Ian Flynn he really didn't seem to get Rouge in Pre-Reboot Archie. Thankfully Post-Reboot his Rouge got better but yeah as fun as I find TTT the Rouge stuff is the weakest. 

[Kuzu]

Like I said, I actually like Rouge being selfish, it's a trait I expect from someone as vain as her. I just didn't like that her selfishness extended to literally not caring about an entire world. She's the type of person who may have selfish motives, but ultimately does the right thing because she's not heartless. 

Rouge's selfishness can be the source of great character conflict, but it needs to be just enough to where she can still be somewhat likable. Like, if Rouge had no idea how important the Sol Emeralds were and stole them anyway before returning them, fine. That's good. 

 

Like, a lot of these characters have (well...had) traits that can make them pretty dynamic, but Sega just seem content with making everyone as plain and friendly as possible and it's just...so.....boring. 

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, SBR2 said:

As much as I love Ian Flynn he really didn't seem to get Rouge in Pre-Reboot Archie. Thankfully Post-Reboot his Rouge got better but yeah as fun as I find TTT the Rouge stuff is the weakest. 

That's partially due to the fact that Rouge in the comics was mostly portrayed as sketchy before he came on the book.

Yeah, a loose version of SA2 happened and she helped protect the President during the Xorda invasion, but every other appearance had her coming into conflict with the other heroes or trying to take advantage of them.

Add that in with how the games that were out around that time were similarly loose when it came to her character(someone mentioned she meticulously wore down Amy before assaulting her, for example) for the most part and you can see why the Preboot Archie version ended up like that.

 

Course, there was also the fact that that was a four part story and the conflict with Team Dark was framed as the primary focus. And with a character as dutiful and brusque as Blaze can be, that was bound to overstir the pot after a bit.

[DabigRG]

So here's a prompt for ya: You are Pontaff, a fusion, and it is 2011-early 2013; Sonic Colors was generally well-received and Sonic Generations had it's handful of winks&winks and it's interactions appreciated. SEGA has contacted you for something of a "promotion": you are handed concept information and artwork on the Deadly Six as well as the Lost Hex (but maybe not the Extractor specifically, though, since that creative aspect is ambiguous) and told to write a story around it.

What do you do naratively speaking and how do you do it?

[Multikaris]

Try to connect them to older lore directly as much as possible. Also, have Sonic torn on whether to join them or Eggman. He’d ultimately side with neither in the end and defeat Eggman and the Zeti alike. But leave things open for Zeena, with Sonic leaving her on good terms.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Miragnarok said:

Try to connect them to older lore directly as much as possible. Also, have Sonic torn on whether to join them or Eggman. He’d ultimately side with neither in the end and defeat Eggman and the Zeti alike. But leave things open for Zeena, with Sonic leaving her on good terms.

Not gonna lie, for a second there, I forgot what you were even referencing.  

That sounds sorta neat, though I almost wanna wonder what you're getting at with Zeena there.

[Multikaris]

10 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Not gonna lie, for a second there, I forgot what you were even referencing.  

That sounds sorta neat, though I almost wanna wonder what you're getting at with Zeena there.

Zeena decides at the end to go off and forge her own path in life, discovering the secrets of the Zeti and the Lost Hex. She decides to stay on Angel Island for the time being, living near Holy Summit.

[DabigRG]

10 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Zeena decides at the end to go off and forge her own path in life, discovering the secrets of the Zeti and the Lost Hex. She decides to stay on Angel Island for the time being, living near Holy Summit.

I'm not familiar with Holy Summit, but whatever. It's something.

[GuyWithThePie]

I'd just do what post-reboot Archie did and have it so that stylized humans and anthropomorphic animals co-exist on a single planet based on Unleashed's geography.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

 

2 hours ago, GuyWithThePie said:

I'd just do what post-reboot Archie did and have it so that stylized humans and anthropomorphic animals co-exist on a single planet based on Unleashed's geography.

This. Why is this so hard for SEGA to grasp? Two worlds? WTF kind of shit is that? It doesn't help that Angel Island takes place in both worlds. With the humans and animals co-existing, it creates a consistent setting. Add in how they came to be and you've worldbuilding taken care of.

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

 

This. Why is this so hard for SEGA to grasp? Two worlds? WTF kind of shit is that? It doesn't help that Angel Island takes place in both worlds. With the humans and animals co-existing, it creates a consistent setting. Add in how they came to be and you've worldbuilding taken care of.

Angel Island flies and occasionally warps anyway.

Also, it means they make games featuring whatever setup they want without having to worry too much about one or the other if they see the need to acknowledge it.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Also, it means they make games featuring whatever setup they want without having to worry too much about one or the other if they see the need to acknowledge it.

This makes zero sense to me.

[RedNether]

I had a few ideas for 3D Sonic, using gameplay from Utopia and Adventure along with a few things from the Boost games as the basis. 

Quote

General comfortable movement from Adventure 1 and 2 is restored, as it is really important that a character who moves at immense speeds like Sonic (and Shadow in that regard) feel comfortable to control rather than really stiff as in Generations and other Boost games. his run animation remains unchanged for 3D, yes. the Ninja run is going to be kept. 

In the event of it being truly necessary, a motion-blur would show up as the traditional wheel-o’-feet effect from the 2D games (not shown in the photo below, as I could not achieve a great enough speed) upon building up enough speed.

The Boost is removed, it interrupts with proper gameplay and player control. it prevents the dev-team from creating levels that are truly well designed. so that is gone, not to mention that it’s just unnecessary a game mechanic. 

So the Boost is gone, next we start actually streamline Sonic’s moveset. all his mechanics are now meant to help him at top speed without slowing him to the point he needs automation to help him speed up. 

And because the Boost is out of the equation, the mechanics that accompany it also need to be removed. so the Quick-Step and Drift are taken out of the picture, as Sonic can turn due to his own power again.

Alternatively, in the possible event that people feel Sonic’s turning arc which is now reliant on Sonic’s own power is back to being too janky (which I personally disagree with, but I won’t expand why because it’s irrelevant).

We keep the Drift, but incorporate it into Sonic’s general movement as a part of it. rather than as a separate mechanic like the Boost games have done.

In addition, as the Drift has been made part of Sonic’s general movement. Sonic will not be curling into a ball when using the Drift to turn around corners. instead, similarly to Unleashed and Colors, when using the Drift. he will begin shifting his center of gravity to be able to better turn around the corner. 

Placing his hand on the ground as he begins turning so as to be able to lean on said used arm at said moment, Sonic pushes his feet sideways in the opposite direction.

In place of the Boost, we bring back the spin-dash which works like it did in SA2 so it's not broken and infinitely spammable. it now has a crouch button, which means that in addition to charging it up like the 2D games. Sonic can roll down slopes which correlates into proper momentum (think Sonic Utopia) and allows him to build speed. 

If the player feels they want to go faster but don’t want to have to rev up the spin-dash until they’ve gained enough speed, which is where the Super Peel-out comes out. which has a far shorter charge-time in terms of duration but still actually keeps the speed interactive. it’s bound to the B button/right mouse button/circle button.

In place of the somersault, we have the slide.which allows you to slip underneath tight small openings in walls and the like, it’s now nerfed as to be unable to break crates.  it’s bound to the right trigger/P key/R2.

That’s what the Bounce Attack is for once, once again working like it does in Sonic Adventure 2. as it can be chained indefinitely, it can also be used to break both wooden crates and steel containers as well as attack enemies obviously. it’s bound to the X button/D key/square button.

The Light Speed enables you to fly alongside a trail of rings, leaving an after-image when being used by Sonic/Shadow like in SA2. it’s bound to the Y button/W key/triangle button.

And most important, there is the Homing Attack. which allows to lock in on enemies if they are nearby. but if there are no enemies to attack, it will be utilized as the Jump Dash. where it gives the player a quick push forward. one big difference between this improved version and the previous iterations of the move is that now it will retrain any momentum and speed you’ve previously built up.

Next there is the Triangle Jump, which allows the player to stick to and move alongside adjacent walls with the A button and left control stick. this helps you keep moving, while not actively interrupting gameplay.

[PeterPancake]

Fix? I'd probably revamp the entire thing. For starters, I would do a complete series reboot that takes inspiration from the Archie comics and the Ratchet and Clank: Future series.

I would bring the games back to being more Story-driven but this time setting up a lore and building a cohesive mythology that future games utilize, I'd make a trilogy of games. Characters would have arcs and those arcs would have payoff. 

 

As for gameplay -- it would be an open world game. Main hub world is set in Mobotropolis and various "zones" of Mobius i.e Green Hill, Casino Night, Chemical Plant etc. There would be multiple paths to choose that all lead to the end goal. And each zone unlocks another portion of the story. 

 

Characters:

 

- Sonic the Hedgehog (The carefree "hero" of the story. Who isn't really a hero in the traditional sense of the word in the beginning. He is always running away from his problems and he puts on a facade to hide the pain he has, as a tragic childhood. He possess a hereditary gene that skips a few generations that allows him to run at the speed of sound. His shoes are friction-resistant and designed by Tails )

- Uncle Chuck (Sonic's only remaining family after his parents were killed in the "Great War")

- Miles "Tails" Prower (Sonic's adoptive brother. Has inspirations of being a world famous inventor one day but has insecurity issues)

- Princess Sally Accorn (Daughter of King Nigel Accorn and the founder of the Freedom Fighters. She takes pride in her duty to protect the people of Mobius and she is a strong-willed leader. She has taken interest in Sonic and she finds his arrogant rebellion charming in a way, even though he can sometimes get on her nerves. [Sonic and Sally's relationship would blossom throughout the trilogy]) 

 

- Amy "Rosy the rascal" Rose. (Member of the Freedom fighters and girl nextdoor with a puppy crush on Sonic. Amy is brash and stubborn and that sometimes gets her into sticky situations. But growing up as an orphan on Little Planet, she learned to trust her gut instincts and it has helped her survive) 

 

- Rotor the Walrus (Walrus Island native and orphan after his mother and father were killed in "Robotnik's Ultimatum" to the world. Rotor is colleagues with Tails and the two work together build tech for the Freedom Fighters)

 

- Dr. Ivo Robotnik (A technological genius, wannabe dictator and narcissistic who believes that all living creatures should bend to his will. Robotnik Is the decedent of Dr. Ivan Kintobor who lead one of the last remaining human groups to survive the gene bomb extinction attempt by the Xorda thousands of years ago. [Robotnik roboticizes half of the Mobotropolis in the epilogue of the game])

 

Basic summary of the ideas that I've had in my head for years now. I doubt Sega would ever go this route but this is how I would "fix" the franchise. Bring in Ian Flynn (Archie/IDW) to write the script for the game and Bryan Intihar to direct (Spider-Man PS4) and this game could be something truly special.

 

 

[DabigRG]

On 1/1/2019 at 3:49 AM, Mountaindewandsprite said:

This makes zero sense to me.

It means if they wanna make a game like Heroes or the Classics, they can ignore the human stuff if they wish; if they wanna make a game like Shadow or SA1, they can ignore the mobian stuff if they wish..

Forces ended up being the former despite taking cues from the latter.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

6 hours ago, DabigRG said:

It means if they wanna make a game like Heroes or the Classics, they can ignore the human stuff if they wish; if they wanna make a game like Shadow or SA1, they can ignore the mobian stuff if they wish..

Forces ended up being the former despite taking cues from the latter.

I get it now. However, I still can't see why they can't just take notes from Archie and have anthros and humans exist in the same world.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

I get it now. However, I still can't see why they can't just take notes from Archie and have anthros and humans exist in the same world.

Because that would be too easy for the fans, but potentially difficult for the actual developers.

What's funny is that despite the Two Worlds thing apparently being canon in house since Sonic Adventure 1, they still allowed other media except the Japanese made Sonic X to do whatever they want.

[Your Vest Friend]

Because they didn't care about the other media at that point. Remember that the comic was still well before Ian came along when Sonic X started airing. 

[DabigRG]

Give the final boss of Lost World a name(maybe Egg Vader or Egg Stractor), make it last two or three more charge hit, and put some of the exclusive stuff from the 3DS version in to make things escalate.

2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Because they didn't care about the other media at that point. Remember that the comic was still well before Ian came along when Sonic X started airing. 

I know, I was just trying to be preemptive on that aspect.