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How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?


Mountaindewandsprite

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22 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

As for Amy, while I like her and I know she was created before Knuckles, I don't think she has any concrete purpose to the series.  I could be wrong, but from what I've played, read and seen, they either fall back on her being a Sonic stalker or just choose a personality at random for her.  I'd love for her to get a better deal, but I'm not sure what that would entail without a new vision for this series, both in plot and gameplay.

My perspective on Amy's role in the series is unironic sincere optimism. She's the physical embodiment of those "live a life without regrets" quotes in various Sonic media. She's the Sonic fan who was never ashamed of it. She's the ideal hero to Sonic's anti-hero. Her name literally means "Beloved." On that note, if she doesn't have a signature gameplay style, lean on her acrobatic ability. Make her the Mario. The entry point for people who have trouble with Sonic, and a symbol of peace between the franchises. Sonic inspired her to become more athletic, and it resulted in better jumps more so than run speed. But she doesn't need Sonic to exist. She'll pursue Eggman because he's being evil. It doesn't need to be complicated.

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Every time I see one of you talk about how a character lacks purpose or reason to show it just reeks of either lack of creative thinking or thinking too hard. They're not functions that do a job. They're a group of friends who care about the planet they live on. It would never be a stretch for them to want to work together. It's weirder for only Sonic and Tails to show up in the context of this series but we're just more readily accepting of things that resemble the classics 

Gameplay is a whole different story since she's one of the only Sonic characters designed without a specific play style in mind so her toolkit is kind of scattershot. That's just more freedom to work with, though. 

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6 hours ago, Wraith said:

They're not functions that do a job.

They are, though. Because they're fictional characters, in a story. And if you're going to write a character into a story their existence in it should serve some purpose.

And I'm not saying that being friends and wanting to protect the planet they live on aren't part of their purpose but there should be more to it than just that.

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I agree with Dio really. While it's easy to justify things out of universe as "everyone is friends, that's why they work together" that doesn't really make for a compelling narrative.

I'm not saying things too complex, but a little something more than "everyone is so nice" would do wonders of fleshing things out a bit.

 

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22 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In-universe, the logic is whatever Sega dictates for any given game. So while you can argue and justify Amy's presence, the same can be done for any other character. (Albeit with a bit more difficulty).

So if you're upset Amy isn't getting her due, guess what, everyone else is mad their favorites aren't getting their due either. So blaming the popular characters and people liking them feels like severe entitlement.

 

If people would rather see Knuckles and Shadow over Amy, then just deal with it. You can't dictate who is or isn't popular and who Sega choose to focus on.

That's not what internal logic refers to at all. Adding in a character because they are popular is actually external logic, it doesn't mean it can't work with internal logic, but internal logic itself means telling the story based on the logic the author has already established within the story world from lore and rules, to character roles and motivations. From an internal logic standpoint Knuckles should not be hanging out with Sonic will-nilly as he does as the in universe precedent is for him to be guarding the Master Emerald or out and about in the world in relation to it for any number of reasons. So if Knuckles should appear due external logic (he's popular and sells games, stick him in) then when he appears there has to be a narrative reason which does not betray already established roles, motivations, and intentions (internal logic). One of the worse examples of this is Knuckles, guardian of the Master Emerald, knowing full well the type of person Eggman is willingly delivering a letter for him in 06 with no explanation for why Knuckles is in Soleanna or willing to help Eggman in this regard. He just appears and takes viewers out of the story. Sure it could be argued that if you go by Iizuka's current stance that every game is a soft reboot then none of it matters, but there are enough nods to continuity still in the franchise that blatant disregard for internal consistency and logic makes these moments stick out all the more and is part of the reason that people so frequently complain about the way that Knuckles is handled. Internal logic and consistency allows the audience to accept the story and it is why under no circumstances that the creators just doing whatever they want can be considered internal logic.

As for me and my stance on Amy, I already know that she technically actually has more appearances than any other side character save Tails so I really don't have a reason to complain and frequently prefer just savoring her appearances and hoping she gets used entertainingly when she appears. I also am aware that she is not as popular as characters like Shadow and Knuckles which really makes it ironic that she still has more game appearances than either of them. But at no point was I intending to express dislike of the more popular characters as much as I was elaborating on why Amy makes more sense to show up with high frequency from an in universe position.

As to your last point, as this thread is about how we SSMB forum users would fix our perceived problems with the franchise within the addressed points of the topic the characters and their popularity as well as SEGA's bottom line really hold no bearing. This thread at best is a hypothetical pool of ideas that will never be used regardless so bring it up really just comes across as if you are particularly irritated.

21 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

I will second the notion that Amy has more of an inherent lore reason to stick around Sonic than Knuckles and Shadow do, but that reason, her having an obsessive crush on Sonic, annoys many people.  I like Amy better in plots where she has some other motivation, like helping out friends.  Of course those friends could be Sonic and Tails as easily as a Flicky, Cream and Big, but first you need to write Sonic and Tails needing help.

See, for me I find Amy's crush only part of what can be used to drive her in a story. One thing I rarely see anyone talk about for example is her own love of adventure which is highlighted at the beginning of her story in Adventure and then she finishes the game commenting on wanting to earn Sonic's respect. Then in Sonic Adventure 2 she explicitly complains about not liking it when she is left behind. These elements to me tie into her being in a fairly unique position that is both explorable and sustainable in static to maintain the status quo.

Take for example, that Tails' background and subsequent friendship with Sonic stems from him choosing to follow Sonic around without Sonic's permission. According to translations of the Japanese instruction manual of Sonic 2 this annoyed Sonic, but he figured it didn't matter and that Tails was free to do what he likes. After that it is inferred for all extents and purposes that the friendship that forms between them is only able to because Tails can keep up well enough and take care of himself, no less help Sonic. If Tails couldn't keep he would have never been able to establish his bond with Sonic.

So where does this leave us with Amy. For myself at least it shows spectacular possibility. It's known that Amy wants to be a part of Sonic's life due in part to her infatuation, but Tails also serves as a motivator in his own right by being a living example that if you can earn Sonic's respect and keep up you can be a constant part of his life. Now, if you also fall onto Amy's own love of adventure and being a hedgehog herself, then chasing after Sonic also serves the functions of showing her what  hedgehog like herself may be capable of, giving her the chance to see her crush in action period, and if she bites off more than she can chew since she is frequently implied to not be quite up to snuff then Sonic's presence acts a sort of safety net. Chasing after Sonic serves her character very well, but it also allows her to never reach her goal and sustain the status quo for as much better as she gets Sonic will also naturally be getting better making the gap impossible to close so the status quo isn't broken. But Amy's efforts to keep up leaves plenty of avenue for stories to be told in my opinion even before you get into the details of how her unique traits would shape her every adventure into something different per adventure. To me she has an astounding amount of potential simply due to her singular focus on Sonic and generally all around kindness and optimism. Throw in her less favorable temper in bratty traits tastefully and you have the necessary flaws to keep her challenged and causing the necessary problems to keep a character and story interesting. So sure, their isn't necessarily a lot to her that everyone will find interesting, and it's way to easy be blinded by her crush, but there is more than enough there to play around with without breaking the status quo or subsequently making her appear useless and uninteresting. Or at least that's my opinion.

18 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Maybe they feel a need to use Amy because they want a female character to be prominent, but her lack of features that make her fit with what they’re trying to do makes it hard to settle on a persona that works.  Her crush on Sonic isn’t allowed to go anywhere, her nurturing side isn’t easy to convey unless they feature more characters for her to interact with, and while she’s been occasionally depicted as a good fighter, that doesn’t really factor in when fighting isn’t a big focus of this series.

Well, to my knowledge she's meant to be the female lead of the series (peculiar then that they frequently deprive her of the core gameplay) as well as the designated love interest with the twist of being won but undesired. This leaves Amy in the position of having to make her self desired which ties in in it's own weird way with her desiring to earn SOnic's respect and be a part of his life thus chasing after Sonic into further and further adventures. As for her nurturing side that is definitely hard to convey in a run and jump platformer. Of course as you point out that also makes her play style of weapon fighter kind of unintuitive in a movement based game franchise. Of course that is one of many reasons I dislike her hammer but I won't get into that here.

15 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

The thing about Amy is that she's more of a spin-off character promoted to a mainstay.  She wasn't playable in her debut game (though neither was Knuckles), Sonic the Fighters established a lot of her signature abilities, and when they tried to transfer that to her playable role in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Advance, she became one of those infamous characters that people complained played too differently from Sonic.  There are other games, like Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, where she was made to play more like Sonic, but in these games arguably she's too much like Sonic, since unlike Tails and Knuckles she doesn't have signature abilities useful to Sonic-style platforming.  She has her hammer, but it's more apt at hitting hard than hitting quickly and nimbly.

As I stated above it's the problem with having a melee combat style for a movement based run and jump platformer. Conversely though, Tails and Knuckles actually both played identically to Sonic in their debut playable appearances (Sonic 3's competition mode was Knuckles playable debut where he was literally just a Sonic reskin) so using Sonic as a base is fine if you can think of how to address making Amy move differently enough to be distinct without making her completely alien. I actually kind of like what Scape says up above

9 hours ago, Scape said:

On that note, if she doesn't have a signature gameplay style, lean on her acrobatic ability. Make her the Mario. The entry point for people who have trouble with Sonic, and a symbol of peace between the franchises. Sonic inspired her to become more athletic, and it resulted in better jumps more so than run speed.

as I find it works pretty well and even thematically since in ol' Jumpman's debut he to attacked with a hammer before really focusing on his jumps and deft use of powerups.

9 hours ago, Wraith said:

Every time I see one of you talk about how a character lacks purpose or reason to show it just reeks of either lack of creative thinking or thinking too hard. They're not functions that do a job.

 

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

They are, though. Because they're fictional characters, in a story. And if you're going to write a character into a story their existence in it should serve some purpose.

I agree with @Diogenes here as long as we are talking about in a narrative use. For gameplay it doesn't matter if they're just a playable character to mix up how you approach the levels or even as simple as which character you are looking at, but once you start writing a narrative and using the characters and everything that makes a character whole, background, motivation, emotions, personality, goals, etc, you have to make sure that when you use a character that you abide by those criteria. If it's a spinoff game sure, a lot of that can be dropped, but if it's considered a more earnest narrative driven story you have to consider why the character is there and what that means to the story. Tails and Amy have the good fortune that their roles and motivations make them story irrelevant as it means they can always show up regardless, but if Sonic's current adventure stems from going to see a festival and he just happens to come upon an Eggman factory that is destroying the festival and the lands around it he is going to act and get pulled into the bigger story. But from there if you add anyone there has to be a reason be it simple or complex. For example you could add Team Dark under the simple reason of Shadow is helping Rouge cause they're friends and she's on a GUN mission investigating Eggman and they brought Omega along because it's Eggman so his fire power and desire to prove that he is Eggman's greatest creation is a boon for them. Conversely, if you want to start bringing in the mystical rock guardians or the time traveler you suddenly have to twist this story to involve a mystical McGuffin or some timeline plot to get them on the move. It's suddenly a lot more work than just here's Eggman causing trouble and Sonic and the kids who try to follow him everywhere have simply stumbled into it. So if you decide Knuckles has to be there no matter what because he is popular, to tell an at bare minimum convincing story you have to provide him a reason to be there. Even if you push his reason off to being an optional side quest in a game and say that he helps out because Sonic is his friend that is still fine as his own reason for being there is addressed and established. He has his own motivation and goals, and as Sonic is not the center of his universe that is vital in making his appearances make sense. It's a way to respect his in universe role while also addressing his real world popularity, but if you just go it's Knuckles, he's here to help Sonic as we just had to drop him because he's popular you break the emergence and cheapen his character. So sure, maybe some people don't approach it right when they say there needs to be a reason, but if characters just hanging around so the audience can say they saw them is called a cameo, it's not being a part of or contributing to the narrative. For that they need to have a reason to be there, and in a title character focused story like Sonic either Sonic has to be their reason in some way shape or form, or there has to be some purpose that justifies their appearance. So it's not a matter of lack of creative thinking or over thinking things, it's just narrative commonsense. If a character is present in a narrative they must be serving a purpose of some kind or another or at least have justifiable motivation to be present otherwise, and in this franchise the only characters that can just appear because Sonic is the lead are Eggman, Tails, Amy, and Metal Sonic.

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I'm so baffled by this argument. Amy's problematic cause she lacks a purpose? What???

Gameplay? Yes, Amy never had good and unique playstyle, at least not in a 3D platformer.

But storywise? She part of the story in SA1, Heroes,  Battle and 06, not to mention Boom games, comics, and cartoons.

 

I don't even need to make arguments. She clearly did work just fine for the last two decades. Maaaaaybe a story focused on her would be a challenge, but ""good"" news: we're not going to face that problem any time soon.

And even then here's few quick ideas just from a top of my head

Spoiler

While Sonic is fighting the Eggman or next baddie, Amy could:

- Meet a wise master who'll teach her new  fighting style, something to make her gameplay more fun
- Develop her friendship with Cream (or throw new friend Chip/Gamma, style. Let Amy help with some emotional problem
- Amy wants to show Sonic how strong she got and charges blindly into danger, putting others at risk. By the end of the game she realizes she was selfish and while Sonic is in Final Battle, she's defending civilians from Super Badnik or something like that
 

Orrrr: Amy wants to help Sonic, so she goes to help. That's it. No real story, just her being here playable and being herslef. Her fans will still like that.

 

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Actually I think it's more that Knuckles and other role specific characters like him need a defined reason for every narrative appearance compared to a character like Amy whose sole reason is part of her character description. Comically though, no one ever seems to consider providing Amy any reason other than that (I'm also guilty) but since the argument that spawned all of this was about how from an in universe stance Amy makes more sense to be around Sonic all the time as a main character rather than Knuckles that was all that needed to be addressed. Of course though you could just take Iizuka's supposed stance on the matter and just say every game is a soft reboot so continuity and character history, motivation, and in universe role doesn't matter.

At this point though we may be so over focusing on Amy that we're forgetting that we're supposed to be sharing our ideas on how we would fix the gameplay, narrative, characterization, and lore flaws of the franchise. It probably shouldn't surprise me though since Amy has a similar affect on threads as Shadow.

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I  don't see popularity as a good standard for involving the characters , sadly it's the only standard that Sonic team know . It's an unfair restriction for less popular characters , who are more easy to justify , and their follow interest . pushing them aside because the fandom don't worship them , as for sales anything done right would sell .

 

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1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

. So if Knuckles should appear due external logic (he's popular and sells games, stick him in) then when he appears there has to be a narrative reason which does not betray already established roles, motivations, and intentions (internal logic) .

This reminded me of comics made by guy ranting on Knuckles neglecting his guardian duty . 

 

knuckles_the_idiot_3_by_meltingman234_d75nx8t-fullview.jpg

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Its really hard for me to believe that Amy lacks a purpose, a purpose to what exactly fighting Eggman? 

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1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

That's not what internal logic refers to at all. Adding in a character because they are popular is actually external logic, it doesn't mean it can't work with internal logic, but internal logic itself means telling the story based on the logic the author has already established within the story world from lore and rules, to character roles and motivations. From an internal logic standpoint Knuckles should not be hanging out with Sonic will-nilly as he does as the in universe precedent is for him to be guarding the Master Emerald or out and about in the world in relation to it for any number of reasons. So if Knuckles should appear due external logic (he's popular and sells games, stick him in) then when he appears there has to be a narrative reason which does not betray already established roles, motivations, and intentions (internal logic). One of the worse examples of this is Knuckles, guardian of the Master Emerald, knowing full well the type of person Eggman is willingly delivering a letter for him in 06 with no explanation for why Knuckles is in Soleanna or willing to help Eggman in this regard. He just appears and takes viewers out of the story. Sure it could be argued that if you go by Iizuka's current stance that every game is a soft reboot then none of it matters, but there are enough nods to continuity still in the franchise that blatant disregard for internal consistency and logic makes these moments stick out all the more and is part of the reason that people so frequently complain about the way that Knuckles is handled. Internal logic and consistency allows the audience to accept the story and it is why under no circumstances that the creators just doing whatever they want can be considered internal logic.

As for me and my stance on Amy, I already know that she technically actually has more appearances than any other side character save Tails so I really don't have a reason to complain and frequently prefer just savoring her appearances and hoping she gets used entertainingly when she appears. I also am aware that she is not as popular as characters like Shadow and Knuckles which really makes it ironic that she still has more game appearances than either of them. But at no point was I intending to express dislike of the more popular characters as much as I was elaborating on why Amy makes more sense to show up with high frequency from an in universe position.

As to your last point, as this thread is about how we SSMB forum users would fix our perceived problems with the franchise within the addressed points of the topic the characters and their popularity as well as SEGA's bottom line really hold no bearing. This thread at best is a hypothetical pool of ideas that will never be used regardless so bring it up really just comes across as if you are particularly irritated.

 

I was more referring to how its incredibly simple to justify things like that; Knuckles doesn't have to be barred from hanging out with Sonic because of his duties. The world isn't always in danger, so it can be just as simple as "oh Sonic and Tails invited him". 

People kind of get tunnel vision about this and make statements like "Knuckles should never appear unless it's about the Master Emerald" which is incredibly restrictive.

And yes, it's kind of irritating. I get people want what's best for their favorites, but that doesn't preclude railing against other characters.

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3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I agree with Dio really. While it's easy to justify things out of universe as "everyone is friends, that's why they work together" that doesn't really make for a compelling narrative.

I'm not saying things too complex, but a little something more than "everyone is so nice" would do wonders of fleshing things out a bit.

 

I don’t think you and Dio understand what Wraith was highlighting tho, as his point isn’t any different from what you’re explaining. He’s not saying “job” in the sense that character’s don’t have roles, but in the sense that these characters are more than just the  rigid boxes of Heroes, Villains, Rivals or archetypes in general we tend to put them in. 

It’s not so much that “everyone’s friends, that’s why they work together” but rather these characters, despite being fictional, are still in essence a “person” and would be better off handled as such as opposed to the more cardboard manner they’ve come off In their less than stellar portrayals.

That’s what he means by them not being functions that do a job—they’re actually people going about their lives, living, working, and reacting in the ways they know how from their experience and capabilities.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I was more referring to how its incredibly simple to justify things like that; Knuckles doesn't have to be barred from hanging out with Sonic because of his duties. The world isn't always in danger, so it can be just as simple as "oh Sonic and Tails invited him". 

People kind of get tunnel vision about this and make statements like "Knuckles should never appear unless it's about the Master Emerald" which is incredibly restrictive.

And yes, it's kind of irritating. I get people want what's best for their favorites, but that doesn't preclude railing against other characters.

That's understandable, though Knuckles not being described as free spirited as Sonic would probably still cause problems. Of course though in this franchise light reflecting off of a character's show incorrectly would cause Armageddon so that really isn't saying much. Still, probably a necessary thing to help the franchise in it's current state is actually reestablishing the status quo. As is Iizuka, SEGA, and the writers for the games just spit out whatever per game and the fans have to fall back on the known status quo and lore to make any sense of anything. It's not a good place for a narrative to try and exist in and it definitely needs to be addressed in some form or another.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I don’t think you and Dio understand what Wraith was highlighting tho, as his point isn’t any different from what you’re explaining. He’s not saying “job” in the sense that character’s don’t have roles, but in the sense that these characters are more than just the  rigid boxes of Heroes, Villains, Rivals or archetypes in general we tend to put them in. 

It’s not so much that “everyone’s friends, that’s why they work together” but rather these characters, despite being fictional, are still in essence a “person” and would be better off handled as such as opposed to the more cardboard manner they’ve come off In their less than stellar portrayals.

That of course is why I personally constantly talk about a character's motivations and goals. These are things that have to be considered when a character is used regardless of their effect on the narrative as it is the backbone for everything and anything they are doing in the narrative. If you disregard a character's personality, motivations, and goals you are doing little nothing for them or the narrative. It strips them of their believability destroying any suspension of disbelief and collapsing and weight the narrative might have been carrying. It's such an easy mistake to make too which is probably part of why SEGA get's called out so often as being lazy since they don't put in the work to address it.

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1 hour ago, Gumbit said:

I  don't see popularity as a good standard for involving the characters , sadly it's the only standard that Sonic team know . It's an unfair restriction for less popular characters , who are more easy to justify , and their follow interest . pushing them aside because the fandom don't worship them

 

Definitely.

1 hour ago, Gumbit said:

, as for sales anything done right would sell .

 

I mean, you say that, but according to people round here... 😏

44 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Its really hard for me to believe that Amy lacks a purpose, a purpose to what exactly fighting Eggman? 

For being a focal character, apparently.

42 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I was more referring to how its incredibly simple to justify things like that; Knuckles doesn't have to be barred from hanging out with Sonic because of his duties. The world isn't always in danger, so it can be just as simple as "oh Sonic and Tails invited him". 

People kind of get tunnel vision about this and make statements like "Knuckles should never appear unless it's about the Master Emerald" which is incredibly restrictive.

And yes, it's kind of irritating. I get people want what's best for their favorites, but that doesn't preclude railing against other characters.

I think it's just one of those things that was odd once and now people can't let it go even though it's seldom relevant anymore.

 

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47 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I don’t think you and Dio understand what Wraith was highlighting tho, as his point isn’t any different from what you’re explaining. He’s not saying “job” in the sense that character’s don’t have roles, but in the sense that these characters are more than just the  rigid boxes of Heroes, Villains, Rivals or archetypes in general we tend to put them in. 

It’s not so much that “everyone’s friends, that’s why they work together” but rather these characters, despite being fictional, are still in essence a “person” and would be better off handled as such as opposed to the more cardboard manner they’ve come off In their less than stellar portrayals.

But that's just it, they are. You're not wrong by saying they are more than their roles, but that doesn't mean their roles disappear.

Sonic is the hero, Eggman the big bad. Those are fundamental to their characters, and can never be excluded.

 

I understood what Wraith was getting at, that these characters should be able to work in any given role...but that's not completely true. Roles exist to help the audience understand what function a character will play. You can say "everyone is friends, that's why they're here" but that doesn't explain what their purpose is right? 

 

37 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

That's understandable, though Knuckles not being described as free spirited as Sonic would probably still cause problems. Of course though in this franchise light reflecting off of a character's show incorrectly would cause Armageddon so that really isn't saying much. Still, probably a necessary thing to help the franchise in it's current state is actually reestablishing the status quo. As is Iizuka, SEGA, and the writers for the games just spit out whatever per game and the fans have to fall back on the known status quo and lore to make any sense of anything. It's not a good place for a narrative to try and exist in and it definitely needs to be addressed in some form or another.

I think a lot of people take these character descriptions to heart and never try think beyond that. 

Yea, Knuckles isn't the same type of free spirit as Sonic, but that doesn't mean Knuckles is never allowed to leave ever.

Keep a character too closely defined by their role, and then it limits what can be done with them.

 

For instance, Knuckles being in Soleanna isn't bad because the Master Emerald isn't relevant to that game at all. The reason Knuckles feels out of place is because he contributes nothing to the plot at all. That has nothing to do with his guardian duties.

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47 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But that's just it, they are. You're not wrong by saying they are more than their roles, but that doesn't mean their roles disappear.

Sonic is the hero, Eggman the big bad. Those are fundamental to their characters, and can never be excluded.

I’m not saying they do. But that those roles are just a part of the whole that is the character.

And sometimes, they do actually disappear—Shadow isn’t a villain anymore like he was back in SA2 now is he? But he did get a new one that works well.

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I understood what Wraith was getting at, that these characters should be able to work in any given role...but that's not completely true. Roles exist to help the audience understand what function a character will play. You can say "everyone is friends, that's why they're here" but that doesn't explain what their purpose is right?

That’s not actually what he was saying, because each character differs to the point that they’re roles usually follow.

The main point of Wraith is that the characters themselves are not functions, they’re people (even if fictional). They’re essentially an perspective for the audience to understand why they do the things they do and sympathize with (or revile in the case of villains). Their roles should relate to them, but not define them completely. 

While, yes, they’re a group of friends that want to see their world safe, they do have lives beyond that, and as such they’re not going to always be in the same place at the same time or with the same people. If a crisis is happening somewhere and say, Blaze is still in her dimension, but the crisis is only in a small area that can be managed and doesn’t affect her, that’s not much for her to lift a finger much less hear about i when she has her own responsibilities to take care of.

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For instance, Knuckles being in Soleanna isn't bad because the Master Emerald isn't relevant to that game at all. The reason Knuckles feels out of place is because he contributes nothing to the plot at all. That has nothing to do with his guardian duties.

This wasn’t addresses to me, but I feel that it was worth commenting that in a way Knuckles guardian duties only magnify how out of place and uncontributing he is—what Knuckles did there would be the equivalent of me leaving my job and home/country to go to Africa to fight terrorists and oppressive dictators who have nothing to do with me, all because I’m an American who believes in freedom and it’s expected of me, regardless of the circumstances or the people already there and capable of doing it better, much less how it doesn’t actually make my home any safer nor does what’s going on there actually affect me when I could be better off doing my job until it actually does start to affect me or someone requests my help while genuinely knowing my skillset that can assist them.

Or to put this another way, it would be like me leaving my house in a panic because the Wal-mart three miles away caught on fire, but isn’t spreading—when it starts spreading my way, that’s when I should think about doing something.

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This whole conversation is confused due to Diogenes taking out one part of my post and making it about something else.

My post was about in universe justification because that's what the previous conversation was about re: Knuckles vs Amy. Sonic characters are people that can respond fluidly to situations. They aren't archetypes that exist to provide a given energy or strapped to what their character description says. Knuckles can make the decision, independently, to act outside of his nature or his job to help his friends if they need it, because they're his friends. You don't need a whole lot more justification than that. These are character that, if not friends, at least care about the planet or at the very least have a survival instinct or at the very very least hate Eggman becuase he crossed them, and it's easy to set up almost anyone in the cast to participate. I say almost with Silver in the back of my mind but even that's an easy fix. The character bios/lore aren't a list of rules you never break.


Diogenes took that chunk out of my post and used it to make a point about them having a purpose in the meta sense in terms of being catalysts for positive contributions to the themes of the narrative even though that's a whole different conversation and Kuzu just kind of piggybacked off that because it sounded smart.  Obviously I want these characters to have meaningful interactions once they're here.
 

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27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This whole conversation is confused due to Diogenes taking out one part of my post and making it about something else.

My post was about in universe justification because that's what the previous conversation was about re: Knuckles vs Amy. Sonic characters are people that can respond fluidly to situations. They aren't archetypes that exist to provide a given energy or strapped to what their character description says. Knuckles can make the decision, independently, to act outside of his nature or his job to help his friends if they need it, because they're his friends. You don't need a whole lot more justification than that. These are character that, if not friends, at least care about the planet or at the very least have a survival instinct or at the very very least hate Eggman becuase he crossed them, and it's easy to set up almost anyone in the cast to participate. I say almost with Silver in the back of my mind but even that's an easy fix. The character bios/lore aren't a list of rules you never break.


Diogenes took that chunk out of my post and used it to make a point about them having a purpose in the meta sense in terms of being catalysts for positive contributions to the themes of the narrative even though that's a whole different conversation and Kuzu just kind of piggybacked off that because it sounded smart.  Obviously I want these characters to have meaningful interactions once they're here.
 

Good God, did I piss in your cereal today or what? Sorry for agreeing with someone?

No I didn't agree because it was "smart". I agreed because its true? Characters are functions in a meta sense.

If that's not what you were focused on, fine. Thanks for clarifying but can we not do the passive aggressive thing?

 

44 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

This wasn’t addresses to me, but I feel that it was worth commenting that in a way Knuckles guardian duties only magnify how out of place and uncontributing he is—what Knuckles did there would be the equivalent of me leaving my job and home/country to go to Africa to fight terrorists and oppressive dictators who have nothing to do with me, all because I’m an American who believes in freedom and it’s expected of me, regardless of the circumstances or the people already there and capable of doing it better, much less how it doesn’t actually make my home any safer nor does what’s going on there actually affect me when I could be better off doing my job until it actually does start to affect me or someone requests my help while genuinely knowing my skillset that can assist them.

Or to put this another way, it would be like me leaving my house in a panic because the Wal-mart three miles away caught on fire, but isn’t spreading—when it starts spreading my way, that’s when I should think about doing something.

You'd have a point...if the Master Emerald was relevant to the scenario you're describing.

But it's not. This is what I meant by how this is restrictive thinking. You're essentially saying Knuckles is not allowed to leave his post for anything unrelated to his duties.

In-universe, that makes some bit of sense. But from a meta perspective, what if I want Knuckles to be in this new game I'm developing. You're gonna tell me I have to contrive some reason to make the Emerald relevant in order to use him even if I had no plans to use it?

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1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You'd have a point...if the Master Emerald was relevant to the scenario you're describing.

But it's not. This is what I meant by how this is restrictive thinking. You're essentially saying Knuckles is not allowed to leave his post for anything unrelated to his duties.

No, I’m not. And ever since the Master Emerald became a major point of discussion, my statements about it from day one consisted of using it in order to make Knuckles more flexible and actually lead to him being less tied down (and if you want, we can certainly go back and pull up the years old topics we engaged in this on, because one of those had a list of exactly eleven ways this could be done for him, so I’d hardy call it restrictive). My position on that still hasn’t changed.

But what I said and made comparisons over wasn’t about the Master Emerald. It essentially summarizes to “This is none of my business, and it is being taken care of without my help” for Knuckles as a character. This is a major reason why Knuckles felt out of place in Soleanna, and why I said his duties as a guardian magnify that feeling.

If I have to be clearer than that, what I said for Knuckles is essentially no different to his portrayal in Archie comics, both pre- and post-reboot, where he only gets involved if it actually affects him (something which I also said in old arguments) or if his help is that desperately needed in a global crisis, as ShTH and Forces has displayed (if extremely poorly). Because Knuckles can have his own problems to deal with instead of being Sonic’s tag-along. To emphasize this more, Knuckles should have been in Unleashed, and yet he wasn’t—I’ve actually made a mild stink of that a number of times.

And as I side note, I find it sadly ironic and somewhat hilarious that fucking Ken Penders actually understood this and managed to develop him to the extent he did.

Edit: And I’ve just found that list I made and the topic it’s in, so I’m ready when you are if you’re up to the challenge.

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1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

No, I’m not. And ever since the Master Emerald became a major point of discussion, my statements about it from day one consisted of using it in order to make Knuckles more flexible and actually lead to him being less tied down (and if you want, we can certainly go back and pull up the years old topics we engaged in this on, because one of those had a list of exactly eleven ways this could be done for him, so I’d hardy call it restrictive). My position on that still hasn’t changed.

But what I said and made comparisons over wasn’t about the Master Emerald. It essentially summarizes to “This is none of my business, and it is being taken care of without my help” for Knuckles as a character. This is a major reason why Knuckles felt out of place in Soleanna, and why I said his duties as a guardian magnify that feeling.

If I have to be clearer than that, what I said for Knuckles is essentially no different to his portrayal in Archie comics, both pre- and post-reboot, where he only gets involved if it actually affects him (something which I also said in old arguments) or if his help is that desperately needed in a global crisis, as ShTH and Forces has displayed (if extremely poorly). Because Knuckles can have his own problems to deal with instead of being Sonic’s tag-along. To emphasize this more, Knuckles should have been in Unleashed, and yet he wasn’t—I’ve actually made a mild stink of that a number of times.

And as I side note, I find it sadly ironic and somewhat hilarious that fucking Ken Penders actually understood this and managed to develop him to the extent he did.

Edit: And I’ve just found that list I made and the topic it’s in, so I’m ready when you are if you’re up to the challenge.

My point was that you don't need to bend backwards in order to justify Knuckles so much. You can literally handwave it with a simple line or two and that's it. The state of the Master Emerald is not relevant to his appearances without it, so there's no point in calling attention to it. 

And no, I'm not doing this with you because I already you're going to go into a 20 page debate about it like you always do and I don't have the time or patience for that. If you don't agree with what I said, fine. 

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So not really something I'd change so much as a thought that occurred to me during a post for the questions thread: why does the Rabbit Family and their Chao live alone out in a prairie?

Perhaps as another element shared with Tails, Cream's unusually large ears could cause her to be rejected or outright ostracized by others--or at least an innate fear of her not being accepted by others within Vanilla.

To which end, she built her cottage out in Neo Green Hill Zone, which is a fair distance away from other dwellings, to delay her daughter from having to face being judged solely for her abnormal appearance.

And why did she raise Cream to always be polite and ladylike? So that if she's ever a victim of aversion once she has to face the outside world, she can at least have a chance of winning them over with the conduct of her character.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Scape said:

My perspective on Amy's role in the series is unironic sincere optimism. She's the physical embodiment of those "live a life without regrets" quotes in various Sonic media. She's the Sonic fan who was never ashamed of it. She's the ideal hero to Sonic's anti-hero. Her name literally means "Beloved." On that note, if she doesn't have a signature gameplay style, lean on her acrobatic ability. Make her the Mario. The entry point for people who have trouble with Sonic, and a symbol of peace between the franchises. Sonic inspired her to become more athletic, and it resulted in better jumps more so than run speed. But she doesn't need Sonic to exist. She'll pursue Eggman because he's being evil. It doesn't need to be complicated.

Funnily enough, I'd almost consider Amy more of the anti-hero at times.  Not always, but in every game story I remember, while Sonic enjoys his work, his primary motive is always to save the day and stop the bad guys.  Amy has more selfish tendencies at times, usually related to making Sonic fall in love with her or just respect her.  Not that I think this is necessarily terrible; I really liked her in Sonic Battle.  Something about a character who can learn to box and lift heavier simply as a side effect of wanting to work out to make herself look more attractive is innately fun to me.  For Sonic, being impressive is a matter of accomplishing really daunting feats because he's already powerful and driven to save the day.  Amy can be impressive for managing to accomplishing feats even though she seems to have a lot going against her.  That said, accomplishing those feats should mean permanent development.  Arguably it had before 06, which broke her back down (along with other characters), and since then, she hasn't had playable roles in major Sonic games.

As to the suggestions of how she should play, well, every character is acrobatic in classic Sonic gameplay, and while Amy can jump the highest, that's not really very useful compared to Tails' and Knuckles' vertical abilities.  I'm really not sure what Amy being "the Mario" really means.

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I'm so baffled by this argument. Amy's problematic cause she lacks a purpose? What???

Gameplay? Yes, Amy never had good and unique playstyle, at least not in a 3D platformer.

But storywise? She part of the story in SA1, Heroes,  Battle and 06, not to mention Boom games, comics, and cartoons.

 

I don't even need to make arguments. She clearly did work just fine for the last two decades. Maaaaaybe a story focused on her would be a challenge, but ""good"" news: we're not going to face that problem any time soon.

And even then here's few quick ideas just from a top of my head

  Reveal hidden contents

While Sonic is fighting the Eggman or next baddie, Amy could:

- Meet a wise master who'll teach her new  fighting style, something to make her gameplay more fun
- Develop her friendship with Cream (or throw new friend Chip/Gamma, style. Let Amy help with some emotional problem
- Amy wants to show Sonic how strong she got and charges blindly into danger, putting others at risk. By the end of the game she realizes she was selfish and while Sonic is in Final Battle, she's defending civilians from Super Badnik or something like that
 

Orrrr: Amy wants to help Sonic, so she goes to help. That's it. No real story, just her being here playable and being herslef. Her fans will still like that.

 

I like your ideas, but I don't agree that Amy worked just fine for the last two decades.  I won't comment on the comics, but Sonic X Amy was okay at best, 06 Amy was obnoxiously one-note and cringey when she said she'd rather save Sonic than the rest of the world, and in the Boom spin-off, Amy is...a bunch of things.  The original intent seems to have been to make her tougher and smarter, but the actual plots that ensued didn't seem like they could decide between living up to that or making her a comedic figure with delusions of being tougher and smarter than she actually was.  I'm not sure of whether Amy is a similar personality roulette in the main series, but I can't imagine she'd be written better than other characters are.

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38 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

My point was that you don't need to bend backwards in order to justify Knuckles so much. You can literally handwave it with a simple line or two and that's it. The state of the Master Emerald is not relevant to his appearances without it, so there's no point in calling attention to it. 

And no, I'm not doing this with you because I already you're going to go into a 20 page debate about it like you always do and I don't have the time or patience for that. If you don't agree with what I said, fine. 

Did what Wraith said set you off a bit dude? Cuz you’re getting a little too aggressive...

I’m starting to see that a lot.

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1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Funnily enough, I'd almost consider Amy more of the anti-hero at times.  Not always, but in every game story I remember, while Sonic enjoys his work, his primary motive is always to save the day and stop the bad guys.  Amy has more selfish tendencies at times, usually related to making Sonic fall in love with her or just respect her.  Not that I think this is necessarily terrible; I really liked her in Sonic Battle.  Something about a character who can learn to box and lift heavier simply as a side effect of wanting to work out to make herself look more attractive is innately fun to me.

Why does Amy like Sonic? What value does she see in him? Would she not want to adopt the traits in him that she likes?

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

06 Amy was obnoxiously one-note and cringey when she said she'd rather save Sonic than the rest of the world

But she wasn't one-note and cringey in Sonic Battle? At least in 06, Amy had just accidentally assisted Silver's attack on Sonic and had to convince a bullheaded freak of nature to stand down while consumed with panic and guilt. She believes that Sonic could never be the cause of disaster and even if he could, he'll always make it right somehow. Why are people so hung up on Amy's hunger for Sonic's jock but never once ask why she ever would be? She confronts Sonic over the bird and Gamma in Sonic Adventure. She outright asks him what his problem is. You don't say that to someone you love uncritically. If I had to guess, I'd say she wants to BE Sonic. She sees an idealized version of herself in him and she becomes frustrated with Sonic when he fails to meet that standard.

 

1 hour ago, Scritch the Cat said:

As to the suggestions of how she should play, well, every character is acrobatic in classic Sonic gameplay, and while Amy can jump the highest, that's not really very useful compared to Tails' and Knuckles' vertical abilities.  I'm really not sure what Amy being "the Mario" really means. 

Knuckles is heavy and sluggish. Tails is has a timer. Sonic has weak vertical ability. Amy would be the option for people who want better use of the terrain without completely bypassing it.

Left/Right :::Walking/Running (Better acceleration than Sonic)
Up :::Look Up
Up + Jump :::Hammer Jump
Down :::Crouch
Down (while Walking/Running) :::Belly Slide Tackle (who needs rolling)
Down + Jump :::Mock Peel-Out (Instant Slide Tackle)
Down (while In Air) :::Dive Tackle (Instant Slide Tackle when landing)
Jump :::Uncurled Jump (Vulnerable from above, Footstools still work)
Jump (Underwater) :::Swim (Cannot Drown)
Jump (while Hugging Wall) :::Wall Jump
Jump (while in Air) :::Hammer Swing (Insta-Shield Clone)
Jump -> (Pause) Jump :::High Jump
Jump -> (Pause) Jump (Pause) -> Jump (While Running) :::High Curled Jump
Jump (From Skid) :::Sideways Somersault

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2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

Did what Wraith said set you off a bit dude? Cuz you’re getting a little too aggressive...

I’m starting to see that a lot.

Oh no, its not that at all. I just...know that you'll go on a 20 page debate about it, because you've done it before lol. I got home from work recently, I just wanted to rest.

Maybe another time?

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