How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?

[Wraith]

Some thoughts about retooling Sonic on the gameplay side of things, since nobody is really talking about that despite it being in the title.

The Classic Sonic gameplay loop is basically converting smart decisions and reactions made with the game's physics and level gimmicks into speed and converting that speed into height to get to higher parts of the level. This core of Sonic's roots is the most important thing they should take from the classic games and arguably the only thing. The "pinball" aesthetic of the classic games was cute and clever but it's not the only way to aesthetically line up with such a gameplay loop. I think Sonic Adventure 1 and 2's extreme sports stint actually made a lot of sense but the games aren't really based around those physics.

The levels need to be dense vertically to reward you for the act of working your way onward and upward. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 dabbles this but largely begins to kick vertical level design to the curb. It's gone by the time Sonic heroes rolls around.  This is the biggest sin of the 3D games moreso than any choices they made with the aesthetic or the lore. They didn't get a grasp on how to make a fun gameplay loop out of the linear hallway type of level design until much later, and even conceding that I like the Boost games and wouldn't mind seeing the style grow some more you have to consider if a more economic approach of more dense levels that have more meaningful interactions in them isn't the better path. The assets you make would contribute to the game along with the environment and atmosphere if you could have more interactions with them. More space to explore and play around in would lead to players wanting to stick around and see all of it. The embarrassing short playtime of newer Sonic games would increase along with the replay value if you play your cards right. I think the Boost games actually have potential for a decent amount of replay value as is but only if you made them more difficult to start with and Sega seems shy about that sort of thing at the moment. Instead, something easier to play that's backed by a robust physics engine that has nuance might be the right path to pleasing more experienced gamers without the less experienced ones being left out in the cold. It just makes sense to me as a next move.

So that's the basic framework of the gameplay settled. This might be an unpopular decision but when crafting a brand new premise for a story from scratch I'm tempted to stray away from as much of the old Sonic stuff as I can't. I'd want a massive Sonic retooling to be more accessible for newcomers than I'd want it to be wish fulfillment for older fans. I'd want the story to be dense and emotionally satisfying but I also want it to be self contained and not so focused on paying off the emotional baggage of long time fans. This doesn't mean any older cast member is excluded but their positioning in the story has to be meaningful.  I'd be interested in opening up new character arcs for them instead of trying to build off of closed ones too.

As far as actually building a cast I'd want story and gameplay to be more interlinked when thinking about it instead of creating flashy new characters for marketing purposes and trying to build a game around the idea later. I'd be interested in experimenting with the new systems I described above and trying to create new playstyles and toolkits that interacts with these systems in a meaningful way. From there, you can build a character, and from those characters you can build stories. I don't think the entire extended cast should be excluded but you'd  have to consider how they mesh with the game design. The likes of Shadow would probably mesh well with what I'm describing with small physics tweaks but implementing someone like Tails or Knuckles's abilities in 3D has always been a much taller order. Tails specifically is designed to render the actual level design redundant which isn't a lot of fun and impedes on people actually learning how to play Sonic. In terms of flight abilities I actually think Ray's would be the best suited for 3D since he comes with the trade off of a difficulty curve and would be easy to balance. 


 

[Kuzu]

 

Just looking at old level maps, you have at least three different ways you could go depending on well you played. Translating this type of design to 3D is definitely a high order since now you have three axises instead of just two. 8 directions instead of 4.

As mishandled as it was, Lost World actually had a good idea going; it's the first time 3D Sonic actually felt expansive. You could climb to the top of level and take a different path or you could choose to stay on the ground and choose the left or right path. I love the Boost games, but they're comparatively far more expensive to make since they'd have to make the levels longer to get the most out of them. Lost World's designs actually do seem more cost effective in the long run and could offer plenty of replay value if fleshed out a bit more. 

And yea, the gameplay and level design should fit the characters and not the other way around. I think you could get away with using Tails and Knuckles if you could swap them out mid playthrough. For instance, there's a high part of the level that Sonic can't reach. So you go back and take that path Knuckles and discover something else entirely. Tails is harder since his gameplay quirk does, as you say, invalidate the level design entirely. I'd probably change his flight to function more like a hover or a double jump in that case. 

 

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

And yea, the gameplay and level design should fit the characters and not the other way around. I think you could get away with using Tails and Knuckles if you could swap them out mid playthrough. For instance, there's a high part of the level that Sonic can't reach. So you go back and take that path Knuckles and discover something else entirely. Tails is harder since his gameplay quirk does, as you say, invalidate the level design entirely. I'd probably change his flight to function more like a hover or a double jump in that case. 

 

This is against what I like about Classic Sonic. Essentially, moving almost anywhere as Sonic should be possible if you're good enough. You won't need to switch characters mid level to explore if you understand how the physics and the level work.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is against what I like about Classic Sonic. Essentially, moving almost anywhere as Sonic should be possible if you're good enough. You won't need to switch characters mid level to explore if you understand how the physics and the level work.

He said mid playthough, as in "play these levels as Sonic, play that level as Tails, replay these stages as Knuckles to see what else I missed"

Which is a good idea.

[Kuzu]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is against what I like about Classic Sonic. Essentially, moving almost anywhere as Sonic should be possible if you're good enough. You won't need to switch characters mid level to explore if you understand how the physics and the level work.

Yea, but I was trying to find some way of implementing additional characters. I like that about Classic Sonic too, but if you can basically get anywhere as Sonic, then it kind of eliminates the need of having anyone but Sonic playable. Sure, Tails and Knuckles could have their own playthroughs like back then, but their levels are exactly the same as Sonic's with the exception of a few exclusive sections for Knuckles. 

Now sure, I really don't mind what you said in that you should be able to do anything and go anywhere as Sonic alone, but if we're also trying to hit the desire for playable characters, think there should be something for them.

Now if we're just gonna focus on Sonic himself, fine. Then feel free to ignore this. 

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yea, but I was trying to find some way of implementing additional characters. I like that about Classic Sonic too, but if you can basically get anywhere as Sonic, then it kind of eliminates the need of having anyone but Sonic playable. Sure, Tails and Knuckles could have their own playthroughs like back then, but their levels are exactly the same as Sonic's with the exception of a few exclusive sections for Knuckles. 

Now sure, I really don't mind what you said in that you should be able to do anything and go anywhere as Sonic alone, but if we're also trying to hit the desire for playable characters, think there should be something for them.

Now if we're just gonna focus on Sonic himself, fine. Then feel free to ignore this. 

This is kind of ignoring the inherent value of just having a character you like more than Sonic to play as. 

Ignoring that, I'm just saying that it would be possible to get most places with Sonic alone. Whether it's easy or not is where your character choice would come in. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

but if you can basically get anywhere as Sonic, then it kind of eliminates the need of having anyone but Sonic playable.

I think when it comes to multiple playable characters, how you get places is more important than the places you can get to. It's nice to have a few secrets and alternate routes for different characters, sure, but if they're sharing levels they'll inevitably be sharing most of the same space, and you'll need to find a way to make all that shared space fun to replay.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This is kind of ignoring the inherent value of just having a character you like more than Sonic to play as. 

Ignoring that, I'm just saying that it would be possible to get most places with Sonic alone. Whether it's easy or not is where your character choice would come in. 

That's why I focused on ways of giving an incentive to use them.

But regardless, while there is inherent value in using characters you like, there's also the fact that it's a video game for more people than just fans as well. What if people don't care that much to play Tails or Knuckles? How do you reconcile that with the people that do? You could make them optional playthroughs like the classics, but then it begs on what they'd offer over Sonic. Even in the classics, there's not much Tails can do over Sonic and his signature ability basically renders the level design moot. Otherwise, a playthrough with Tails is essentially the same as one with Sonic.

You could give them their own story campaigns like before, but then you're forcing them on people to play them to get the full story. 

[Hurly Burly]

Sonic, or SEGA's issues in general is they attempt to do too much at one time. 32X, SEGA CD, etc. Now, we can see this mind-set leaking into their titles, notably Sonic. In the early-mid 1990s, Sonic was all about speed. Racing through stages as Tails, Knuckles, even the Choatix.

Sonic Adventure became the turning point for Sonic. We got treasure hunts, shooters, fishing, etc. Sonic Mania returned Sonic back to his roots. Speedy characters tend to be enjoyed by casuals more than the E-Robots, Big, Silver, or Rogue.

IMO, they need to refine the other character's game-play (The ones who are not speedsters). Personally, I would not mind knuckle stages being beat em ups (Streets of Rage fan). From the reviews & gamers who are not hardcore fans, characters who are not Sonic are a chore to play with. Players who want to play as Sonic only, should be afforded that option. Playing as the other characters should be optional (For completest).

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Hurly Burly said:

Sonic, or SEGA's issues in general is they attempt to do too much at one time. 32X, SEGA CD, etc. Now, we can see this mind-set leaking into their titles, notably Sonic. In the early-mid 1990s, Sonic was all about speed. Racing through stages as Tails, Knuckles, even the Choatix.

Sonic Adventure became the turning point for Sonic. We got treasure hunts, shooters, fishing, etc. Sonic Mania returned Sonic back to his roots. Speedy characters tend to be enjoyed by casuals more than the E-Robots, Big, Silver, or Rogue.

IMO, they need to refine the other character's game-play (The ones who are not speedsters). Personally, I would not mind knuckle stages being beat em ups (Streets of Rage fan). From the reviews & gamers who are not hardcore fans, characters who are not Sonic are a chore to play with. Players who want to play as Sonic only, should be afforded that option. Playing as the other characters should be optional (For completest).

You just said they're doing too much, and then turn around and say they should add beat'em up stages?

[DabigRG]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You just said they're doing too much, and then turn around and say they should add beat'em up stages?

No, he said he wouldn't mind them doing that. But that's just him.

The rest is cohesive to the idea of making the main Sonic gameplay the most integral to the experience.

[Hurly Burly]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You just said they're doing too much, and then turn around and say they should add beat'em up stages?

Yes, they made their beds. Unless they get rid of every character not named Sonic, they need to refine their roles by making them optional. That was only a snippet of what I said.

 

"From the reviews & gamers who are not hardcore fans, characters who are not Sonic are a chore to play with. Players who want to play as Sonic only, should be afforded that option. Playing as the other characters should be optional (For completest). "

Mania works because it is a 2D Sonic title old-schoolers like myself are accustomed to. 3D Sonic titles have too much going on; there is no way to change that, damage done. Make those characters optional.

[Dash Speed]

If rather have Shadow go back to his give no fucks personality when dealing with the goody two shoes heroes like sonic and amy. It would be refreshing to see him act like a proper anti hero instead of this inconsistent tsundere that gets made fun of by characters who don't take his grim and cynical worldview seriously.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

19 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

That's why I focused on ways of giving an incentive to use them.

But regardless, while there is inherent value in using characters you like, there's also the fact that it's a video game for more people than just fans as well. What if people don't care that much to play Tails or Knuckles? How do you reconcile that with the people that do? You could make them optional playthroughs like the classics, but then it begs on what they'd offer over Sonic. Even in the classics, there's not much Tails can do over Sonic and his signature ability basically renders the level design moot. Otherwise, a playthrough with Tails is essentially the same as one with Sonic.

You could give them their own story campaigns like before, but then you're forcing them on people to play them to get the full story. 

Then that sounds like a matter of diversifying the characters’ abilities more. Sonic alone has been restrained as is, even with things like the Wisps attempting to give him more utility. Adding something that flows with his abilities—like the parkour in Lost Worlds, plus a return of the elemental shields—might actually accomplish more and make him more fun. That on top of making the levels less restrictive.

As far as giving characters their own campaigns, there’s nothing wrong with that so long as you make that optional too. They can still play of their own accord, and if they favor a character more, they won’t miss out on anything so long as it’s not required to complete the game. You’d essentially return to the format that S3&K set.

[Kuzu]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:14 AM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Then that sounds like a matter of diversifying the characters’ abilities more. Sonic alone has been restrained as is, even with things like the Wisps attempting to give him more utility. Adding something that flows with his abilities—like the parkour in Lost Worlds, plus a return of the elemental shields—might actually accomplish more and make him more fun. That on top of making the levels less restrictive.

As far as giving characters their own campaigns, there’s nothing wrong with that so long as you make that optional too. They can still play of their own accord, and if they favor a character more, they won’t miss out on anything so long as it’s not required to complete the game. You’d essentially return to the format that S3&K set.

In more story orientated games though, I don't think players would appreciate having to go through what essentially would amount to a filler storyline. 

[DabigRG]

41 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In more story orientated games though, I don't think players would appreciate having to go through what essentially would amount to a filler storyline. 

They won't have to, though. That's the point.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In more story orientated games though, I don't think players would appreciate having to go through what essentially would amount to a filler storyline. 

That's where you have to go

" Well fuck em "

There are games that do that, if you choose to not participate in a part of a game you miss the part of the story.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

In more story orientated games though, I don't think players would appreciate having to go through what essentially would amount to a filler storyline. 

There’s an easy solution for that:

Divide them into Adventure mode for those interested in both the game and story, and Classic mode for those who care less about the story and more about the game where they aren’t forced to go through the plot.

[Shadowlax]

19 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

There’s an easy solution for that:

Divide them into Adventure mode for those interested in both the game and story, and Classic mode for those who care less about the story and more about the game where they aren’t forced to go through the plot.

How would you do that though?

If there are things in one characters story that's different enough move set wise to justify another campaign , the " classic mode " wont fix that for them. They are going to have to play through that other campaign. And if there isn't that much of a difference , why cater to the person who wants to only play as sonic in the first place.

They can learn to play as other people or be shit out of luck.

Whether it be because the developer has a vision or there are actual mechanics, I think its OK to not have another option in that scenario. Just make sure they can play sonic's all the way through with out having to stop for someone else, and that's it. Otherwise, I don't think its a concession you need , because other video games don't even do this.

[Sonic Fan J]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

If there are things in one characters story that's different enough move set wise to justify another campaign , the " classic mode " wont fix that for them.

I think you kind of misunderstood the implications here (or I did and am blowing a bit of hot air) but it's kind of something I've been saying for a while though for different reasons. Basically though, you have an arcade mode where you just play straight through with zero story, one stage after the other as soon as you complete one and then you have a story mode where you have all of your cutscenes, narrative, and if necessary, hub worlds that breaks up the gameplay and tells the whole story. Realistically for this setup to work all playable characters should be available in the arcade or "classic" mode.

Honestly to me my ideal Sonic game would probably be possessed of these game modes

Arcade/Classic: play through the stages and bosses in sequential order like a classic platformer (perfect for when you want to play the game without dealing with the story slowing down the experience) using your character of choice.
Story: play through the game with all of the narrative and cutscenes in place to experience the adventure with a fully fleshed out story.
Time Attack: Pick a stage and try to set the best time and compete with your friends with online leader boards.
Free Play: Pick a stage and play at your leisure without the peskiness of stage progression or the pressure of setting the best time.
Competitive: Race with a friend in couch or online multiplayer.

Of course again this is just my ideal Sonic game setup, but the bottom line is that having a dedicated arcade/"classic" mode is meant to allow you to just play the game without worrying about the story which is something that I think benefits everyone since not every playthrough of the game should require you sitting through the story again if you don't want (A lack of an arcade/"classic" mode has been one of my biggest pet peeves with the franchise since Adventure actually). And even in story mode other characters and their stories should be an optional thing since as long as Sonic is the main character his POV should be what takes us from beginning to end of the story.

[Wraith]

21 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

There’s an easy solution for that:

Divide them into Adventure mode for those interested in both the game and story, and Classic mode for those who care less about the story and more about the game where they aren’t forced to go through the plot.

They can just skip cutscences if they want. People who pretend they don't enjoy games from beyond 1994 don't need to be coddled. It's a nonissue.

[Shadowlax]

48 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I think you kind of misunderstood the implications here (or I did and am blowing a bit of hot air) but it's kind of something I've been saying for a while though for different reasons. Basically though, you have an arcade mode where you just play straight through with zero story, one stage after the other as soon as you complete one and then you have a story mode where you have all of your cutscenes, narrative, and if necessary, hub worlds that breaks up the gameplay and tells the whole story. Realistically for this setup to work all playable characters should be available in the arcade or "classic" mode.

Honestly to me my ideal Sonic game would probably be possessed of these game modes

Arcade/Classic: play through the stages and bosses in sequential order like a classic platformer (perfect for when you want to play the game without dealing with the story slowing down the experience) using your character of choice.
Story: play through the game with all of the narrative and cutscenes in place to experience the adventure with a fully fleshed out story.
Time Attack: Pick a stage and try to set the best time and compete with your friends with online leader boards.
Free Play: Pick a stage and play at your leisure without the peskiness of stage progression or the pressure of setting the best time.
Competitive: Race with a friend in couch or online multiplayer.

Of course again this is just my ideal Sonic game setup, but the bottom line is that having a dedicated arcade/"classic" mode is meant to allow you to just play the game without worrying about the story which is something that I think benefits everyone since not every playthrough of the game should require you sitting through the story again if you don't want (A lack of an arcade/"classic" mode has been one of my biggest pet peeves with the franchise since Adventure actually). And even in story mode other characters and their stories should be an optional thing since as long as Sonic is the main character his POV should be what takes us from beginning to end of the story.

There are scenarios where the levels are different and they can't do this.

Also as wraith said above I dunno , I if this is a classic scenario where they do go through the same levels. Just make sure you can select a character at the beginning, other than that you really have no obligation to those people

[Sonic Fan J]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

There are scenarios where the levels are different and they can't do this.

Also as wraith said above I dunno , I if this is a classic scenario where they do go through the same levels. Just make sure you can select a character at the beginning, other than that you really have no obligation to those people

I really don't see why it wouldn't have worked even in the case of Sonic Adventure. You already have everything built so why not include the option. Sure I don't really know much about coding but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to have both.

[Shadowlax]

Just now, Sonic Fan J said:

I really don't see why it wouldn't have worked even in the case of Sonic Adventure. You already have everything built so why not include the option. Sure I don't really know much about coding but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to have both.

Because characters levels are different. You can't pick knuckles and go through sonic's levels because they aren't made for knuckles. You are describing a classic sonic scenario where you can just arcade mode a bunch of levels. And if that's the game you describing as long as you can pick a character and stick with that character its no need to have a separate options, they can skip cutscenes

[Sonic Fan J]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Because characters levels are different. You can't pick knuckles and go through sonic's levels because they aren't made for knuckles. You are describing a classic sonic scenario where you can just arcade mode a bunch of levels. And if that's the game you describing as long as you can pick a character and stick with that character its no need to have a separate options, they can skip cutscenes

Ah now I get what is going on here, a little miscommunication on my part so please allow me to clarify.

If I turn on Sonic Adventure and say want to play through all of Tails' level's sequentially without having to pop in and out of menus, which is very annoying, or having to restart the story every single time, or wandering through hub worlds to get to each level then an arcade mode accommodates that. It's not making every character play through every other characters levels, it's just letting me play that character through all of their levels sequentially if I want to with out the inconvenience of having to navigate menus and restart the story every single time. Especially with the first Adventure, 06, o Unleashed it can get especially aggravating between load times and/or hub worlds really dragging out the time between levels. it's not a matter of dropping everyone else into everyone else's levels if they don't all share the same core gameplay, it's just a matter of being able to enjoy the gameplay without having to deal with all of the other stuff, saving me massive amounts of time, a thing I don't think a lot of modern game design respects in the least. It's a matter of convenience for me, but having the option also allows those who don't want to deal with everything else to just jump in and enjoy. It makes the game more marketable which means you can reach a larger audience and make more money which would appeal to most businesses not named SEGA.

Now though all of that said, I am personally old fashioned in that I prefer a single core gameplay experience with minimal differences between characters but I also understand that in today's gaming environment and culture that really doesn't sell outside of Mario and Sonic Mania without a justifiable narrative attached. But it's because we live an era with more commands mapped to a single button by itself than the full complexity of older games (looking at Red Redemption 2 and it's absurd amount of uses for the "A/X" button just for controlling your horse) that I expect more options and ease of accessibility. Just because a platformer has a story mode and multiple playstyles does not mean that it can't also have a sequential mode for each of those playstyles to both appeal to more players and fulfill certain moods and desires of the players. There is more than one way skin a cat as the saying goes and in this era of gaming there is no reason to limit the product if options and diversity of play is already a goal.

Anyway, I hope that helps make my stance a little clearer and why I think a sequential/arcade/classic mode should work regardless of playstyle count.