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How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?

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With my regards to 3D stages, I'm going to link to a post (not made by me) in the Sonic Utopia topic over at Sonic Retro since I think this post is really onto something. 

//forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36095&view=findpost&p=873536

3D stages should have emphasis on several vertical layers that open up to you and that you can travel between based on geometry all the time. The roles of these layers are the same as they would be in 2D stages.

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11 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Ah now I get what is going on here, a little miscommunication on my part so please allow me to clarify.

If I turn on Sonic Adventure and say want to play through all of Tails' level's sequentially without having to pop in and out of menus, which is very annoying, or having to restart the story every single time, or wandering through hub worlds to get to each level then an arcade mode accommodates that. It's not making every character play through every other characters levels, it's just letting me play that character through all of their levels sequentially if I want to with out the inconvenience of having to navigate menus and restart the story every single time. Especially with the first Adventure, 06, o Unleashed it can get especially aggravating between load times and/or hub worlds really dragging out the time between levels. it's not a matter of dropping everyone else into everyone else's levels if they don't all share the same core gameplay, it's just a matter of being able to enjoy the gameplay without having to deal with all of the other stuff, saving me massive amounts of time, a thing I don't think a lot of modern game design respects in the least. It's a matter of convenience for me, but having the option also allows those who don't want to deal with everything else to just jump in and enjoy. It makes the game more marketable which means you can reach a larger audience and make more money which would appeal to most businesses not named SEGA.                                                                                  

Oh you mean no hubworlds and you stick as the character you choose. Yeah I also want that. Hubworlds in sonic have never really been good and they don't need to be there. Just let me be whoever and throw me in the next thing.

11 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Now though all of that said, I am personally old fashioned in that I prefer a single core gameplay experience with minimal differences between characters but I also understand that in today's gaming environment and culture that really doesn't sell outside of Mario and Sonic Mania without a justifiable narrative attached. But it's because we live an era with more commands mapped to a single button by itself than the full complexity of older games (looking at Red Redemption 2 and it's absurd amount of uses for the "A/X" button just for controlling your horse) that I expect more options and ease of accessibility. Just because a platformer has a story mode and multiple playstyles does not mean that it can't also have a sequential mode for each of those playstyles to both appeal to more players and fulfill certain moods and desires of the players. There is more than one way skin a cat as the saying goes and in this era of gaming there is no reason to limit the product if options and diversity of play is already a goal.                                                        

If we are doing the thing you just mentioned, its no need for an extra mode. Just don't do hubworlds, and you stay as the character and all the player would have to do if they hat cut-scenes is skip em. And if they can't be bothered to do that then I don't know what to tell you

11 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Anyway, I hope that helps make my stance a little clearer and why I think a sequential/arcade/classic mode should work regardless of playstyle count.

You did , thanks.

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11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

If we are doing the thing you just mentioned, its no need for an extra mode. Just don't do hubworlds, and you stay as the character and all the player would have to do if they hat cut-scenes is skip em. And if they can't be bothered to do that then I don't know what to tell you

I disagree for only one primary reason and it is a thing that game designers have annoyed me with for a while and that is a singular play saves and linking your collectables to it. SEGA has been especially bad with this involving Sonic and considering how tedious some Sonic games can be it becomes a much bigger problem than just skipping cutscenes. I mean I could go on about the irritation of finishing a level, sitting through a loading screen, skipping a cut scene, sitting through another loading, and having to skip yet a another cutscene or more and also the fact that some narratives benefit from having hub worlds but at this point I think you and I just fundamentally disagree on the importance of player convenience and ease of play so I won't push the matter further.

11 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You did , thanks.

Glad to hear and you're welcome.

-----

16 minutes ago, Osmium said:

With my regards to 3D stages, I'm going to link to a post (not made by me) in the Sonic Utopia topic over at Sonic Retro since I think this post is really onto something. 

//forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36095&view=findpost&p=873536

3D stages should have emphasis on several vertical layers that open up to you and that you can travel between based on geometry all the time. The roles of these layers are the same as they would be in 2D stages.

Cool read though I wish there was a better video they had linked to but that's nitpicking. They really had a firm grasp of level design and even grasped one of the concepts that makes the original Sonic and CD so appealing to me and that is the importance of solve at a glance momentum and movement puzzles. Most Sonic games just say jump and go fast but that is extremely unengaging and part of the reason I can get bored with 2 and 3&K as well as number of 3D games. But before I derail myself too much the way they described using a tilted bowl as the idea level shape I think is fairly brilliant and makes me wonder what they would think of my idea of using an over sized twisting tube adorned with catwalks and balconies to encourage progressing in different ways and creating hidden shortcuts between sections of the main tube. At the very least I like their thought process for the most part with only a few tiny nitpicks so thanks for sharing that.

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5 hours ago, Wraith said:

They can just skip cutscences if they want. People who pretend they don't enjoy games from beyond 1994 don't need to be coddled. It's a nonissue.

True, and that’s always been the most mind-boggling part when people like that could just take a few measly seconds to skip it.

But I figure it would give those that like to complain about the length or even mere existence even less reason to do so. That and to make their experience flow faster at the same time.

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Humpity-bump!

Gonna bring this back up into visibility so I can hopefully get back to it sometime this month.

On 1/26/2019 at 9:35 PM, DabigRG said:

Indeed, three is a good number of times for Elise to be taken by Eggman in order to eventually gain control over her powers. It segues pretty well with the three act structure and helps provide convenient checkpoints for Elise's development over the course of the game. Of course, to attain this number, two of the kidnappings that happen in the game proper need to be cut.

As I and whoever-it- was have stated before, at least two of these kidnappings are not only unnecessary, but somewhat monotonous to the overall story progress. As such, the middle kidnappings will be cut and/or meddled with each other to allot a better flowing story and by extension, certain events and/or cutscenes need to be adjusted accordingly. And due to most of these event taking place in there, this will affect the progression of Silver's Story as well and for good reason.

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Still been slackin on actually writing the next Elise thing out, but it's been on my mind.

 

Anywho, let's bump for this general question: What are some characters that you feel are/were wasted and/or could've been better utilized? If possible to say, how so?

EDIT: Actually, I might just make this a thread when I get the chance.

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Tails, Amy and Knuckles. And for different reasons.

Tails: I feel Tails is largely limited because of how the whole "Sonic's best friend" thing eclipsed everything about him (similar to Amy's crush for Sonic in the 2000's) to the point that right now, Tails is more a role than a character. He is no longer the kid that wants to be like Sonic, neither is he allowed to branch out into becoming his own thing nor interacts with anyone unless it is a Sonic because of the rather extremist interpretation from ST of what his role is, which apparently consists on being someone who only exists so that Sonic has someone to talk to. Frankly, this is not what we were shown in Sonic Adventure where Tails goes on a quest of character growth where he realizes that he can achieve heroic deeds on his own, something that in no moment goes against him being Sonic's lil bro nor most trusted friend, which is why his entire character regression is just utter non-sense.

Amy: Out of the three, I think Amy had the most potential and versatility as she is much more independent than Tails while still being a team player and on top, is making her very own path as a hero instead of following a mentor figure. However, the fact that she was not introduced in the Genesis trilogy seems to be a things that stills haunts her to this very day, and which has been used as excuse to ignore/overlook her in games/stories where her participation is painfully obvious (often in favor of the S3&K trio pandering). How can this character continue to grow as a heroine if she is constantly pushed to the sidelines in such an unfair manner?

Knuckles: I stay by my words when I said that Knuckles entire character was wasted the moment ST brute-forced him as a friend of Sonic, since not only is there no build-up to this change, but also puts Knuckles in a position where he can't do what he was created for: rival Sonic. I think Knuckles is to Sonic what Daffy is to Bugs: a character who wants to prove to be better than the more popular and favored protagonist, and with good reason since Knuckles' pride was greatly hurt during the events of S3&K and while he is smart enough to recognize that Sonic is not a bad guy by any stretch, he probably feels jealous and sees in besting Sonic as the better hero his chance to heal his pride. Sadly, all ST seems to see him as is just for nostalgia bait, which I feel is such a disservice to this character.

As for how to rectify this, it's all about giving each character their own rightful place and stick with it.

The most recent example is Forces, where the theme of "even heroes need help" is central, and a very obvious opportunity for these characters to be made justice and shine. Instead the focus went to the "Rookie", a bloody blank slate that can barely be called a character as well as Classic Sonic, who feels shoehorned as fuck just so his game style can be used as filler.

In this game, Tails is turned into a useless coward, Amy is just there and Knuckles is made commander or something against all logic. In fact, all three characters are handled in such a dumbass way that doesn't even start to make any sense...

Tails just fucking stood there with his discount Ipad instead of helping Sonic fight against the combined forces of Eggman, Kylo Ren and copies from previous villains that ganged up on the hedgehog. And even if they got separated, he would still try to do something about it like joining forces with the others instead of praying to heavens for a Sonic to drop by to make him believe that there is hope.

Amy should had taken more innitiative, from being the leader of the Resistance (thank you IDW for showing who really led) to even rescuing Sonic herself, much like in SA2 and maybe even try to reason with Kylo Ren (and discover that sometimes, there are those who don't want to be saved from themselves)

Knuckles should had been better used... I dunno, like at first him wanting to stay neutral in all this mess, but eventually being brought to reason by Tails and Amy who convince that once Eggman takes over the world, he'll go after angel island next. Knux would not only join the fight, but offer shelter to the civvies on his floating island (the one place Eggman would have a really though time trying to conquer) and as they fight for a common cause, Knuckles would realize the true reason he guards the ME in the innocent lives that depend on it not being taken for Eggman's ambitions, especially after seeing them too fight to keep this from happening, and once the battle is won, find himself receiving the gratitude and admiration he long wished to experience, knowing he finally bested Sonic.

If the characters are not used in ways that fit their roles and provide something to reward their fans, then they're not being used to their potential... They're just being wasted.

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IMO, a lot of the characters just need more exposure. Sonic Mania (Plus) was a step in the right direction, allowing for multiple characters to be playable. Sonic Forces had... two Sonics and a blank OC. See the problem here? We need to go back to the SA, SA2, Heroes and heck, even '06 days when characters had their own unique abilities that made for interesting gameplay.

Gameplay-wise, level design seems to be a core issue - they need to make them difficult, but not too difficult. Then again, I've never actually owned a full Sonic game before, so...

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2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

What are some characters that you feel are/were wasted and/or could've been better utilized?

Well.

Sonic.

I've said it before but I'm disappointed in how few Sonic games are actually about Sonic, that actually explore him as a character and let him grow a bit or at least show a different side to him. There's obviously limits in how much they can do that directly focuses on and develops him, but he's somehow ended up feeling like the least developed major character in the series. He's always around, sure, but it's almost always been for the sake of someone else's story, and rarely in a way that meaningfully reflects back on him. I want Sonic to be more than the perfect cool dude who beats all the bad guys, I want him to feel like an actual character and a meaningful part of the story.

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7 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Well.

Sonic.

I've said it before but I'm disappointed in how few Sonic games are actually about Sonic, that actually explore him as a character and let him grow a bit or at least show a different side to him. There's obviously limits in how much they can do that directly focuses on and develops him, but he's somehow ended up feeling like the least developed major character in the series. He's always around, sure, but it's almost always been for the sake of someone else's story, and rarely in a way that meaningfully reflects back on him. I want Sonic to be more than the perfect cool dude who beats all the bad guys, I want him to feel like an actual character and a meaningful part of the story.

I feel like this is the consequence of being the main character; because as the main character, he is the link between the audience and the story. And as such, his personality is subdued enough so he can be flexible enough to fit whatever the story needs him to be at any given time. But yes, it has the unfortunate side effect of making him one of the flatter and less dynamic characters. 

While I wouldn't mind much more thought put into fleshing Sonic out as a character, I feel like it would come at the expense of what so many people find appealing about the character and could potentially alienate people as well. 

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23 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

...his personality is subdued enough so he can be flexible enough to fit whatever the story needs him to be at any given time.

What? He isn't Mario, mang.

This actually isn't necessary for a personality like Sonic. It's not like he can only be molded around the stories he's in, that's just an excuse to keep him as a paragon.

His role in stories like Adventure, Unleashed, and Forces would be much more interesting if he was molded by the events happening and it honestly wouldn't change anything.

If it also leads to consistent characterization, that'd be Big Swell.

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10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

What? He isn't Mario, mang.

This actually isn't necessary for a personality like Sonic. It's not like he can only be molded around the stories he's in, that's just an excuse to keep him as a paragon.

His role in stories like Adventure, Unleashed, and Forces would be much more interesting if he was molded by the events happening and it honestly wouldn't change anything.

If it also leads to consistent characterization, that'd be Big Swell.

I'm not saying its necessary, it's just the simplest way to use him. It's why Mario can get away with...being literally anything Nintendo wants him to be.

Different writers have been working on this series for it's almost 30 years of serialization and it's rather obvious that "consistent and dynamic" characterization isn't something they are going to prioritize anytime soon.

It's why Iizuka made that statement that every game is it's own self contained adventure. It's just simpler for the developers to do whatever the hell they want without being constrained by a narrative they have to follow.

 

 

It's just unfortunate that it means throwing away the old dynamic characterizations and stunting the potential growth in others. How would you even begin to actually give Sonic such a dynamic character without feeling jarring to what's come before?

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4 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

How would you even begin to actually give Sonic such a dynamic character without feeling jarring to what's come before?

You don't...

This whole thing would be easier to work with if they had a consistent team of writers to cycle though.

Or just not a problem at all if they just had the stories be all episodic from the beginning.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

You don't...

This whole thing would be easier to work with if they had a consistent team of writers to cycle though.

Or just not a problem at all if they just had the stories be all episodic from the beginning.

Stories being episodic goes against the idea of having long lasting development tho as what happens in one game wouldn't necessarily carry over.

 

It's not just about having a consistent team of writers; we've had the same writers for almost a decade, and still have very dry stories. It's about if the developers consider the writing a priority and work with the writers. And even then the nature of the series as a long runner means teams are going to inevitably be shuffled at some point.

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

we've had the same writers for almost a decade...

Truth? If that's the case, then why the isolated adventures rule?

That'd make sense if there were newbies.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Stories being episodic goes against the idea of having long lasting development tho as what happens in one game wouldn't necessarily carry over.

I did say if they were episodic from the beginning...c'mon.

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I'm assuming that rule is to just allow for whatever story they want to tell to justify the game.

 

Like it or not, I'm almost positive the gameplay serves the story rather than the other way around at this point. Or at least both working in tandem.

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Wow. I know it's been a day, but I didn't expect anyone to respond so quickly, nevermind as long regardless of who it was.

Eh, anyway

On 4/19/2019 at 2:38 PM, DabigRG said:

Anywho, let's bump for this general question: What are some characters that you feel are/were wasted and/or could've been better utilized? If possible to say, how so?

A bit of a trick question in that I personally feel this can be said about most characters that aren't the Classic carryovers(minus Knuckles) and Shadow.

It's generally some variation or even combination of not getting many appearances, receiving much [personal] focus, getting sufficient exposition/development, having a relevant/purposeful place in a story, or simply being in out of the norm situations. Not every character demands each of those things all of the time, but it'd generally help for them to have at least two of them when they do appear.

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18 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel like this is the consequence of being the main character; because as the main character, he is the link between the audience and the story. And as such, his personality is subdued enough so he can be flexible enough to fit whatever the story needs him to be at any given time. But yes, it has the unfortunate side effect of making him one of the flatter and less dynamic characters. 

While I wouldn't mind much more thought put into fleshing Sonic out as a character, I feel like it would come at the expense of what so many people find appealing about the character and could potentially alienate people as well. 

I...really don't agree with this at all. I mean the main character is the audience's most direct connection to the story, sure, but I don't see any reason why the character needs to be subdued for that to work. I've read, watched, and played plenty of stuff with strange and vibrant main characters, and I've never felt like that got in the way. And Sonic was a character marketed using his attitude; "subdued" seems like the exact wrong direction for him.

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2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I...really don't agree with this at all. I mean the main character is the audience's most direct connection to the story, sure, but I don't see any reason why the character needs to be subdued for that to work. I've read, watched, and played plenty of stuff with strange and vibrant main characters, and I've never felt like that got in the way. And Sonic was a character marketed using his attitude; "subdued" seems like the exact wrong direction for him.

Yes, but you have to understand the type of series this is as well. This isn't a one off serialized story with a clear beginning and ending. It's a long running mascot platformer with no real "ending" to speak of. Having an actual ending is pretty important when you're constructing a story.

I'm not saying it's an impossible task, but I'm having a hard time trying to think of a way it would work in a way that's organic and natural.

Sonic's original marketing gimmick has long lost its purpose as he was originally the "cool" alternative to the everyman Mario. And that really only applies in America, Sonic was never really marketed as such in Japan.

But in this case, what are we defining as "cool" for Sonic? 

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On 4/19/2019 at 1:37 PM, Skull Leader said:

Tails, Amy and Knuckles. And for different reasons.

Tails: I feel Tails is largely limited because of how the whole "Sonic's best friend" thing eclipsed everything about him (similar to Amy's crush for Sonic in the 2000's) to the point that right now, Tails is more a role than a character. He is no longer the kid that wants to be like Sonic, neither is he allowed to branch out into becoming his own thing nor interacts with anyone unless it is a Sonic because of the rather extremist interpretation from ST of what his role is, which apparently consists on being someone who only exists so that Sonic has someone to talk to. Frankly, this is not what we were shown in Sonic Adventure where Tails goes on a quest of character growth where he realizes that he can achieve heroic deeds on his own, something that in no moment goes against him being Sonic's lil bro nor most trusted friend, which is why his entire character regression is just utter non-sense.

Amy: Out of the three, I think Amy had the most potential and versatility as she is much more independent than Tails while still being a team player and on top, is making her very own path as a hero instead of following a mentor figure. However, the fact that she was not introduced in the Genesis trilogy seems to be a things that stills haunts her to this very day, and which has been used as excuse to ignore/overlook her in games/stories where her participation is painfully obvious (often in favor of the S3&K trio pandering). How can this character continue to grow as a heroine if she is constantly pushed to the sidelines in such an unfair manner?

Knuckles: I stay by my words when I said that Knuckles entire character was wasted the moment ST brute-forced him as a friend of Sonic, since not only is there no build-up to this change, but also puts Knuckles in a position where he can't do what he was created for: rival Sonic. I think Knuckles is to Sonic what Daffy is to Bugs: a character who wants to prove to be better than the more popular and favored protagonist, and with good reason since Knuckles' pride was greatly hurt during the events of S3&K and while he is smart enough to recognize that Sonic is not a bad guy by any stretch, he probably feels jealous and sees in besting Sonic as the better hero his chance to heal his pride. Sadly, all ST seems to see him as is just for nostalgia bait, which I feel is such a disservice to this character.

As for how to rectify this, it's all about giving each character their own rightful place and stick with it.

The most recent example is Forces, where the theme of "even heroes need help" is central, and a very obvious opportunity for these characters to be made justice and shine. Instead the focus went to the "Rookie", a bloody blank slate that can barely be called a character as well as Classic Sonic, who feels shoehorned as fuck just so his game style can be used as filler.

In this game, Tails is turned into a useless coward, Amy is just there and Knuckles is made commander or something against all logic. In fact, all three characters are handled in such a dumbass way that doesn't even start to make any sense...

Tails just fucking stood there with his discount Ipad instead of helping Sonic fight against the combined forces of Eggman, Kylo Ren and copies from previous villains that ganged up on the hedgehog. And even if they got separated, he would still try to do something about it like joining forces with the others instead of praying to heavens for a Sonic to drop by to make him believe that there is hope.

Amy should had taken more innitiative, from being the leader of the Resistance (thank you IDW for showing who really led) to even rescuing Sonic herself, much like in SA2 and maybe even try to reason with Kylo Ren (and discover that sometimes, there are those who don't want to be saved from themselves)

Knuckles should had been better used... I dunno, like at first him wanting to stay neutral in all this mess, but eventually being brought to reason by Tails and Amy who convince that once Eggman takes over the world, he'll go after angel island next. Knux would not only join the fight, but offer shelter to the civvies on his floating island (the one place Eggman would have a really though time trying to conquer) and as they fight for a common cause, Knuckles would realize the true reason he guards the ME in the innocent lives that depend on it not being taken for Eggman's ambitions, especially after seeing them too fight to keep this from happening, and once the battle is won, find himself receiving the gratitude and admiration he long wished to experience, knowing he finally bested Sonic.

If the characters are not used in ways that fit their roles and provide something to reward their fans, then they're not being used to their potential... They're just being wasted.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yes, but you have to understand the type of series this is as well. This isn't a one off serialized story with a clear beginning and ending. It's a long running mascot platformer with no real "ending" to speak of. Having an actual ending is pretty important when you're constructing a story.

I get that, and I agree that it's a significant limiting factor for the series, but even within that framework I think they've seriously fumbled what they're able to do with Sonic. It doesn't have to be grand sweeping arcs and momentous journeys that challenge the characters to the very core of their identities to be meaningful. I really just want there to be something personal and meaningful to Sonic's involvement in the story, at least some of the time.

Like, ok. Sonic Adventure, we've got a monster made of water, one of Sonic's greatest weaknesses...and that never comes up, Chaos is just a bad guy for Sonic to fight before he lays down some truths about Chaos' pain and anger (and then fights him again). Heroes, we've got the return of Metal, Sonic's evil robot doppelganger...a point which is really only briefly acknowledged in the Last Story and then he turns into a junk dragon for everyone to fight because teamwork. '06, we've got Sonic accused of being responsible for the apocalypse, but the story never has him grapple with this, he's just there to fight Eggman and save/mentor Elise while Shadow and Silver deal with the actual apocalyptic threat. Unleashed has Sonic cursed to turn into a wild beast every night, except he retains full control of himself and nobody minds what he looks like after the first few seconds of seeing him as the werehog so this "curse" ends up almost being convenient more than anything. Every one of these games (and others) had ways of exploring Sonic as a character, of exploring different sides of him and challenging him in new (non-physical) ways, in a way that would more strongly tie him into the game's main conflict...but they just...don't.

I don't think working any of these things into the story would require changing Sonic too much or presenting an unappealing version of him or anything like that. If anything I'd say it would be the bare minimum for anyone actually trying to tell a story and not just making a convenient excuse for gameplay to happen. And while I don't mind the occasional excuse plot, this is a series that's had aspirations of meaningful (to at least some degree) storytelling since SA, and it has consistently failed to do so with its main character, in spite of having plenty of opportunities.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But in this case, what are we defining as "cool" for Sonic? 

I mean that's a question that could fill a whole thread on its own, and one I can't say I'm too eager to dig into.

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It becomes a little bit more baffling when you remember Sonic games have characters overcome emotional hurdles pretty much as soon as they were capable of illustrating such. Sonic 3 has a moment where Knuckles has to swallow pride and admit he's wrong about Sonic and almost every game since tackles new characters in this way. 

So the decision to sidestep this for Sonic feels less like an airheaded mistake and more deliberate. I've enjoyed Sonic's portayal in some of these games but I think part of the reason Sonic's friends carved out their own cult following despite arguably being detrimental to many games overall is that the emotions they experience can be a bit more varied and down to earth compared to him. Maekawa or whoever was writing those games seemed to think having moments of humility was important but Sonic was somehow above it a lot of the time. On the whole I think making Sonic too humble would be a big mistake but too far in the opposite direction is too limiting.

One thing I do appreciate about colors on are a change to this way of handling him, mixed as the results may be. 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

It becomes a little bit more baffling when you remember Sonic games have characters overcome emotional hurdles pretty much as soon as they were capable of illustrating such. Sonic 3 has a moment where Knuckles has to swallow pride and admit he's wrong about Sonic and almost every game since tackles new characters in this way. 

So the decision to sidestep this for Sonic feels less like an airheaded mistake and more deliberate. I've enjoyed Sonic's portayal in some of these games but I think part of the reason Sonic's friends carved out their own cult following despite arguably being detrimental to many games overall is that the emotions they experience can be a bit more varied and down to earth compared to him. Maekawa or whoever was writing those games seemed to think having moments of humility was important but Sonic was somehow above it a lot of the time. On the whole I think making Sonic too humble would be a big mistake but too far in the opposite direction is too limiting.

One thing I do appreciate about colors on are a change to this way of handling him, mixed as the results may be. 

Essentially. 

 

And how appropriate.

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

It becomes a little bit more baffling when you remember Sonic games have characters overcome emotional hurdles pretty much as soon as they were capable of illustrating such. Sonic 3 has a moment where Knuckles has to swallow pride and admit he's wrong about Sonic and almost every game since tackles new characters in this way. 

So the decision to sidestep this for Sonic feels less like an airheaded mistake and more deliberate. I've enjoyed Sonic's portayal in some of these games but I think part of the reason Sonic's friends carved out their own cult following despite arguably being detrimental to many games overall is that the emotions they experience can be a bit more varied and down to earth compared to him. Maekawa or whoever was writing those games seemed to think having moments of humility was important but Sonic was somehow above it a lot of the time. On the whole I think making Sonic too humble would be a big mistake but too far in the opposite direction is too limiting.

One thing I do appreciate about colors on are a change to this way of handling him, mixed as the results may be. 

I don't think you have to make sonic that humble at all. He should just screw up , maybe have to acknowledge the screw up grow as a person , maybe even get yelled at . But I don't think that doesn't mean he can't be cocky.

One of my favorite things that spawed from the darker era of the archie comics was the tails sonic fight. Now to be clear, the reasons for this fight were not great and seeped in toxic masculinity and misogyny. But the idea of sonic getting too big for his britches boasting too hard and the other guy taking the gloves off and beating the breaks off his ass is not only fitting of the franchise, would actually make sonic seem human. We all fuck up like that, and having sonic screw up from time to time is fine. And he can still be cocky before and afterward, admitting he went way to far make a joke, we all laugh and move on. or maybe its a more serious moment he pauses considers and moves on. I don't think its that hard to do, and I hope the comic indulges in that, the new one I mean.

It doesn't have to be all violence, sonic could in some instance maybe try and hit on blaze or something and he's just met with an awkward no and he just has deal with it. Sonic would 100% be a dork who be in that moment.

Sonic's lack of these kinds of flaws not only seem limited , but out dated. Sonic is a character who all ways wants to seem hip with the kids, and while memes are a good way of doing that . Another good way is vulnerability, characters showing this has been an attractive thing for you audiences in the modern age. They relate to this, its always been relatable , but times and sensibilities have changed. And i think part of the thing you need to do when creating a character who' supposed to be cool is you gotta keep up with what's cool. And I don't think sonic , as a character has done that since.... the early 00's.

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