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How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?


Mountaindewandsprite

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I’d honestly prefer not to go into a lengthy rant about every damn thing that needs to be fixed, so I’ll try to keep it simple. I’ll only focus on lore and narrative because gameplay is something I tend to be less certain of.

Start from SA2, everything after never happened, build on the events from Classic to SA2 onwards. Take elements from the retconned parts and incorporate it into the new world as needed. The world is a human/animal mixed world that has some areas purely animal, some purely human and some a mix of the two. Tone? Don’t really care, as long as it’s appropriate to whatever crazy adventure Sonic gets into and doesn’t forget that Sonic can be cartoony/silly/funny as well as serious/somber/dramatic AND that it stays consistent with the in universe logic presented. Also allow for rotating character cast so the story doesn’t only stick with Sonic, Tails and Eggman all the damn time, and so we don’t get Sonic and his fuckton of cheerleaders who do nothing like Generations and Forces.

And give the characters some more interaction with each other that isn’t just exposition for Pete’s sake! Flesh the ones you have out and give them more depth. Take the characters who might not have ever interacted in the past and see what kind of bizarre scenarios you can get out of them! Let them change, let them do stuff, let them be people and not just walking caricatures.

Also less Standup comedian acts unless it’s actually APPROPRIATE.

Edited by SenEDDtor Missile
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Okay, here's the steps I'd personally take. 

Lore

Fuck that. 

Lore is not that important at all. Maybe character consistency, but lore is such a footnote I wouldn't even bother with it. 

Gameplay

A style that's enjoyable. Unfortunately for me, I couldn't say what the ideal gameplay would be as I've enjoyed so many over the years. I know I'd much prefer 3D over 2D but aside from "make it more interesting in level design than Colours, and make sure it works better than Lost World's parkour" I don't have specifics. 

Narrative/Characters

I'm tying these two together because I think they could be improved with the same thing; let the characters (and more characters than just Sonic and Tails) bounce off each other again. I don't think you'd even need to make an extra effort to add *depth* because bouncing off other characters naturally adds more facet to them (or should do). That's why even though I'd vastly prefer team Chaotix to be a team in TSR in terms of using my fave characters, narrative-wise team Vector is the most interesting idea it has. Team Chaotix are clearly not going to stop being a thing so Vector and Espio can get more small talk later. Vector bouncing off Silver and Blaze will likely only happen once, and that's a start in getting more out of the characters. 

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22 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

Both of these are vastly more entertaining and interesting than any "cohesive lore".

You could also just engage with art meant for grown-ups.

And before I get snarkily reprimanded by a mod for being snarky or whatever, I'm being serious. Why continue to obsess over "fixing" a series that has clearly not been aimed at you for like 15 years? Like if you want to do some sort of creative exercise by trying to revamp an old series that's one thing, but these threads always devolve into "WHY CAN'T THE CORPORATE FRANCHISE FOR SEVEN YEAR OLDS CATER TO ME!?!?!" There's plenty of other quality stuff out there for kiddies and adults that you could spend your time with instead. 

Well whats wrong with wanting to help a franchise that is faltering like this?

Doesnt matter if its something made for 6 year olds or 60 year olds dude, things can be well done with a little thing we call effort.

Agasin just because something is made for kids doesnt mean it cant improve, otherwise it will lead to shit like Teen Titans go.

10 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Lore

Fuck that. 

Lore is not that important at all. Maybe character consistency, but lore is such a footnote I wouldn't even bother with it. 

 

Thing is that with Lore and world building you can make a fantasy universe feel more real.

there is nothing wrong with lore, again it doesnt have to ber Lord of the Rings but a little lore now and then isnt bad.

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Here's a thought just do what they did with Mania for the 3D games. 

Get some fans who are dedicated enough to make a new game that takes what works from the Adventure style and Boost style.

As for story I genuinely don't care. Sonic has never been particularly deep and I don't think it really needs to be. I'm fine with silly stories as well as serious as long as it doesn't go to far and be like Shadow or 06 or even Forces with how "LOOK HOW MATURE AND EDGY WE ARE!" they were.

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

An AU is still functionally a reboot to me. Even if the old Sonic still exists I would rather not have 3 branches fighting for resources and attention. If there's some sort of new writing talent we want to get what would be the benefit of not getting them to do the main series? Any Sonic fan who seriously hates well written stories and cutscenes can just skip them. 

I can see how you'd feel that way, and how many others would as well, so I won't get into defending the potential dividing of resources as that is more of a different topic. As for the writing talent I'm all for adding it to the main series as it would likely in itself solve most of the narrative and writing problems that the series has. The problems more so than anything is more that SEGA handles things so backwards and is probably why I'd go the AU route. I mean realistically, the main series should be the most consistent part of the franchise from gameplay to characterization to narrative to lore with all of SEGA's desperate desire to experiment with every little thing being played out in spin offs. That someone can perceive the main games of the series as a being built like experimental spin offs in itself is problematic as it shows a lack of focus and idea of what they are aiming to accomplish. It's again perhaps part of where I find the idea of an AU appealing as if SEGA is so backwards (they're a business with the bottom line of making money but seem to ignore fan demand and seem to actively avoid exploiting the global market for their most demanded games) then maybe a spin off AU will accomplish everything that should be being done in the main series. It's horribly irrational reasoning to be sure, but SEGA seems to be a horribly irrational company so it is par for the course it seems. But otherwise, yeah, I agree. Good writing going forward and consistent design with spin offs handling the experimental stuff would generally help build a solid foundation to improve the series from. At the bare minimum it would be a more stable foundation than seemingly throwing everything and anything at a wall and hoping something sticks.

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10 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I can see how you'd feel that way, and how many others would as well, so I won't get into defending the potential dividing of resources as that is more of a different topic. As for the writing talent I'm all for adding it to the main series as it would likely in itself solve most of the narrative and writing problems that the series has. The problems more so than anything is more that SEGA handles things so backwards and is probably why I'd go the AU route. I mean realistically, the main series should be the most consistent part of the franchise from gameplay to characterization to narrative to lore with all of SEGA's desperate desire to experiment with every little thing being played out in spin offs. That someone can perceive the main games of the series as a being built like experimental spin offs in itself is problematic as it shows a lack of focus and idea of what they are aiming to accomplish. It's again perhaps part of where I find the idea of an AU appealing as if SEGA is so backwards (they're a business with the bottom line of making money but seem to ignore fan demand and seem to actively avoid exploiting the global market for their most demanded games) then maybe a spin off AU will accomplish everything that should be being done in the main series. It's horribly irrational reasoning to be sure, but SEGA seems to be a horribly irrational company so it is par for the course it seems. But otherwise, yeah, I agree. Good writing going forward and consistent design with spin offs handling the experimental stuff would generally help build a solid foundation to improve the series from. At the bare minimum it would be a more stable foundation than seemingly throwing everything and anything at a wall and hoping something sticks.

So much yes!

Again i think we are on the same page here again Sonic Fan J

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1 hour ago, Heckboy said:

Both of these are vastly more entertaining and interesting than any "cohesive lore".

Nah

1 hour ago, Heckboy said:

You could also just engage with art meant for grown-ups.

And before I get snarkily reprimanded by a mod for being snarky or whatever, I'm being serious. Why continue to obsess over "fixing" a series that has clearly not been aimed at you for like 15 years? Like if you want to do some sort of creative exercise by trying to revamp an old series that's one thing, but these threads always devolve into "WHY CAN'T THE CORPORATE FRANCHISE FOR SEVEN YEAR OLDS CATER TO ME!?!?!" There's plenty of other quality stuff out there for kiddies and adults that you could spend your time with instead. 

Its not about being directly aimed at us? I think most of us have accepted that, its about being... not shit. And people are talking about how it could be... not shit, because it isn't exactly outside of when its being handled literally by other people  hitting its demographic too hard. That is, ontop of Sonic team actually trying to entice us to actually by their products based on nostalgia. So often times nowadays it is actually aimed at us, and their primary demographic and done poorly.

Do you think sonic shit is all we do every day. No we have lives, jobs other non sonic related interests. This is just something we like and would like to get better and talk about it

Actually calm down my dude

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4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Nah

Its not about being directly aimed at us? I think most of us have accepted that, its about being... not shit. And people are talking about how it could be... not shit, because it isn't exactly outside of when its being handled literally by other people  hitting its demographic too hard. That is, ontop of Sonic team actually trying to entice us to actually by their products based on nostalgia. So often times nowadays it is actually aimed at us, and their primary demographic and done poorly.

Do you think sonic shit is all we do every day. No we have lives, jobs other non sonic related interests. This is just something we like and would like to get better and talk about it

Actually calm down my dude

Agreed, wow I am on a roll today actually agreeing with a Shadow fanboy.

Its a Christmas miracle :D:santa_tone3:⛄

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1 hour ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I’d honestly prefer not to go into a lengthy rant about every damn thing that needs to be fixed, so I’ll try to keep it simple. I’ll only focus on lore and narrative because gameplay is something I tend to be less certain of.

Start from SA2, everything after never happened, build on the events from Classic to SA2 onwards. Take elements from the retconned parts and incorporate it into the new world as needed. The world is a human/animal mixed world that has some areas purely animal, some purely human and some a mix of the two. Tone? Don’t really care, as long as it’s appropriate to whatever crazy adventure Sonic gets into and doesn’t forget that Sonic can be cartoony/silly/funny as well as serious/somber/dramatic AND that it stays consistent with the in universe logic presented. Also allow for rotating character cast so the story doesn’t only stick with Sonic, Tails and Eggman all the damn time, and so we don’t get Sonic and his fuckton of cheerleaders who do nothing like Generations and Forces.

And give the characters some more interaction with each other that isn’t just exposition for Pete’s sake! Flesh the ones you have out and give them more depth. Take the characters who might not have ever interacted in the past and see what kind of bizarre scenarios you can get out of them! Let them change, let them do stuff, let them be people and not just walking caricatures.

Also less Standup comedian acts unless it’s actually APPROPRIATE.

I agree with this, but I would go further. Reboot SA1 and 2 while you are at it, Remakes of those games that changes the stories around a bit ( especially 2 because while I like that game and shadow... woo boy can we cut a bunch of that shit out ) as a jumping point would be pretty good.

1 hour ago, VEDJ-F said:

Okay, here's the steps I'd personally take. 

Lore

Fuck that. 

Lore is not that important at all. Maybe character consistency, but lore is such a footnote I wouldn't even bother with it. 

 

I would make the argument that lore could and kinda should be. But I don't trust the current powers at be, the sonic team in japan to actually... let that lore happen in a way that's interesting. So for now i'll pass but I think it could be cool ,

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

An AU is still functionally a reboot to me. Even if the old Sonic still exists I would rather not have 3 branches fighting for resources and attention. If there's some sort of new writing talent we want to get what would be the benefit of not getting them to do the main series? Any Sonic fan who seriously hates well written stories and cutscenes can just skip them. 

Not to be rude... but different versions of shit exist all the time. Just pay attentions to the things you want to , that's it. I agree with that last bit though

1 minute ago, MadmanRB said:

Agreed, wow I am on a roll today actually agreeing with a Shadow fanboy.

Its a Christmas miracle :D:santa_tone3:

I'm very agreeable, mostly.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Heckboy said:

Both of these are vastly more entertaining and interesting than any "cohesive lore".

You could also just engage with art meant for grown-ups.

And before I get snarkily reprimanded by a mod for being snarky or whatever, I'm being serious. Why continue to obsess over "fixing" a series that has clearly not been aimed at you for like 15 years? Like if you want to do some sort of creative exercise by trying to revamp an old series that's one thing, but these threads always devolve into "WHY CAN'T THE CORPORATE FRANCHISE FOR SEVEN YEAR OLDS CATER TO ME!?!?!" There's plenty of other quality stuff out there for kiddies and adults that you could spend your time with instead. 

The problem with argument is that if we assume that their age demographic is a constant, at least some things in the games should be.  Somehow, being aimed at children back in the 1990s didn't result in Sonic games being a broken, glitchy mess.

Also, if this is aimed at children; why did they shit out shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic The Hedgehog 2006.  Moreover, if the complaints are a result of adults outgrowing the series, then why do adults hate on these games more than any others?  I know that was over a decade ago, but it's when anti-Sonic sentiment peaked.  No game made since, all considerably less gratuitously pandered to more mature sensibilities, has gotten this much hatred from adults.

Because frankly, no matter whom it's for, something can be done well or badly.  Or just okay, as is most often the case these days.

3 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

Well whats wrong with wanting to help a franchise that is faltering like this?

Doesnt matter if its something made for 6 year olds or 60 year olds dude, things can be well done with a little thing we call effort.

Agasin just because something is made for kids doesnt mean it cant improve, otherwise it will lead to shit like Teen Titans go.

 

Thing is that with Lore and world building you can make a fantasy universe feel more real.

there is nothing wrong with lore, again it doesnt have to ber Lord of the Rings but a little lore now and then isnt bad.

The thing about lore is it has multiple levels; not all of equal importance.  This series isn't obliged to cater to niche details like keeping the moon half-destroyed or keeping the world map looking the same between games, although it might be neat if it did.  

However, more surface things, like how characters are portrayed, that is more important to people, and if Sonic Team doesn't want people to whine about changes there, they shouldn't have made character identities so prominent and appreciable to start.  People are entitled to complain about Tails being locked into a mech that prevents him from flying, since that flight was a beloved part of his character.  They're entitled to complain when Shadow becomes evil again out of nowhere, when Eggman degenerates into an ineffectual joke, particularly in Sonic Boom, and also in that spin-off, Amy goes from being a suave ninja-gymnast-ballerina to someone who can barely keep standing when she loses her hammer.

I understand that times change, and tastes change, but frankly, trying too hard to change with them has hurt this franchise more than it's helped.  Every franchise that has aged well has done so because it's established something timeless and not thrown it out.

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22 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Also, if this is aimed at children; why did they shit out shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic The Hedgehog 2006.  Moreover, if the complaints are a result of adults outgrowing the series, then why do adults hate on these games more than any others?  I know that was over a decade ago, but it's when anti-Sonic sentiment peaked.  No game made since, all considerably less gratuitously pandered to more mature sensibilities, has gotten this much hatred from adults.

Because Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 are still aimed squarely at kids and young teens. Sonic Team wasn't trying to aim for a much older audience with these games. They just noticed that their target audience of 12 year old boys liked violence and serious settings already. 

These games aren't directly aimed at adults. It's not really relevant to them being shit on the gameplay side of things, but I think it's worth considering before people try to go off about how silly and juvenile elements of these games tonally/story wise are. It's like...this isn't aimed at you. They never cared about what older people thought. 

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Alright, let me get this all out there as a prelude to whatever Youtube video I end up doing in the future, should I finally get on that. I guess.

Lore

Okay. So, the thing about "lore" is that it's not necessarily something you need to set-up or actively develop between games. The lore kind of creates itself when you tell individual stories for each game. What makes it the Sonic "lore" comes mostly from just keeping things consistent with each game. Consistency is not the same as having every story continue on from the last game that came out by the way. Adventure 1 and Adventure 2 are consistent despite telling completely different stories from one another. Tails saving everyone in Station Square is referenced as something that happened in the past, despite its impact on the story only really serving to highlight the whereabouts of one of the chaos emeralds. There's nothing in it that contradicts what we saw before and that's good. It's only natural that it wouldn't. If there's something about the status quo that you wish to see changed, it should be taken as an opportunity to tell how it happened with a new story. If they think the series is going to continue regardless, might as well right?

Fortunately, unlike most people, I don't think the established lore is beyond saving... however, if I was given the chance, I'd probably do the Crash and Spyro thing and revamp all the old games and stories. Perhaps tell the story of what Sonic 1, 2, and 3 are in terms of the Modern era. I've always kind of wanted to see what that would be, even before it was "revealed" (bleh) that Classic and Modern were different dimensions. The fact that it was "revealed" so late in the game is unnerving but I don't have that big of an issue with it as most of it can be described away by simply showing us what the modern version of those Classic stories actually were.

You could see little kid, blue-eyed Tails meeting younger green-eyed Sonic. Kind of like what Sonic X did except probably more in-depth.

Gameplay

Alright, gameplay is the one I know the least about and the one I'm more open to leaving to others to figure out but I suppose I can, at the very least, talk about what I'd like to see. The one thing that Sonic 06 did correctly, in terms of its design, is make these very wide-open levels that definitely did not, in anyway, feel all that linear. Sometimes the confusion of where to go wasn't as clear as I would have liked. Silver's version of Tropical Jungle often felt like a maze. However, stuff like Aquatic Base, where you'd go into a huge, open room with tons of doors around, did a lot to help make it feel like you were traveling through an actual facility and not just running down a straight and narrow highway. Perhaps, the beta version of Windy Valley from Sonic Adventure would also count as a more open and fun way to do it. Seeing it almost made Lewis from Brainscratchcomms cry with joy.

It's the kind of level design I really wish they'd go back to. I know they probably don't agree because they dropped everything that defined what 06 was when that game dropped a nuke on their franchise but it was quite the shame that the majority of that was also the stuff that helped create what the very idea of Modern Sonic was at the time because it was aping off so much from the Adventure games. It's set-up is even remarkably similar to the point where you play as pretty much everyone you did in the first two games with only minor variations. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, A Purple Cat, A Robot, Shadow, Rouge, and a new hedgehog also hits the scene to steal away some popularity points in this one as well. 

The only one you don't play as is Eggman which... honestly probably would have gone a long way towards making him more memorable in 06 outside of his hideous design.

As for the way the characters play, I desire pretty much the same thing that Mania was doing, except modified to work in 3D. I really like the Speed, Power, and Flight dynamic that Heroes created. We have so many characters that being able to section them off into groups that function a certain way depending on what type they are, seems like it'd be really convenient. I wouldn't mind at all if the characters did act as skins of the same type like they did in Heroes too. Omega having that explosion and projectile animation in Heroes came off of the same move Knuckles did by simply punching. There was no real need to give him a shooting mechanic like they did in 06. Same thing how the power characters use different methods to glide. Knuckles can glide, Big has his umbrella (He's Mary Poppins, y'all), Vector uses bubble-gum, and Omega has boosters on his back. It's neat. 

If the characters really needed to be even more different, maybe I'd do what Forces did and give a special ability depending on who you pick. Like this character is a flight character but they keep more rings when you get hit. Or something.

Now this is only really what I would do if their intention was to include something akin to like 10 characters in a game. If they were going for something with far less, like 4, then the development might be more open to making even more minute changes. I just don't want a repeat of Sonic 06, where they foolishly thought that with a split Sonic Team, they could design completely different movesets and playstyles for 9 different characters in their own levels. That's insane.

Characters

The first step is keeping them as consistent as you can. Honestly. That's a very bare bones, "no shit" kind of thing but it's also something they struggle to do so it's sadly worth pointing out. As was discussed in the Sonic Mania Adventures thread and a few times regarding the Sonic Channel Comics that were put out for the 25th anniversary, making them charming can and will go along way too. Down-time with the characters is something that the games do need more of. I understand that as a game, they may find it harder to justify over just continuing with the "plot" as it were but it's something that really does elevate a bare-bones, mission-structure based story into being something that's truly character driven. 

It doesn't matter what you do either. These characters are versatile enough that seeing them at a party, relaxing in a hotel room, or going out to get lunch would be interesting if handled correctly. 

I like Sonic when he's perfectly balanced, as all things should be. Fun-loving and charming but also someone who has a range of emotion notable enough to tell when he's being serious and when he isn't. After all, he can still make jokes while taking a situation seriously. That usually comes through with the inflection in the voice or the look on his face. Basically, just turn him into Tony Stark. "You throw another moon at me... and I'm gonna lose it."

Stop making Tails an asshole. Also, stop making him a wuss. Tails is neither of those things so I'm not sure what the issue is here. He's cute, he's got self-esteem issues, and he's Sonic's right hand so treat him like it. I like the idea of Tails being more fun and child-like. That's why Boom Tails is my favorite version of the character to date. He's still smart and has an adorkable love for tech, but he's also quick to make nervous and has just enough awkwardness about him to make the times where he's more worried about things understandable. Plus, he can fight.

Knuckles is a character I feel could easily work for the amount of inclusions he has if they had only stuck with an approach that continued his story throughout each game instead of resetting it back to the status quo. The idea that Knuckles might actually want to get more out of life than his isolation on this island is a good one. The way SA1 ended, insinuates that he's fine where he is but that unfortunately ends up making his arc feel like it just circled round to being where it began. There's ways to do it but the way they chose wasn't the correct one. 

Amy has flashes of brilliance showing up a lot more lately. Unsurprisingly, it's all stuff that isn't in the games. IDW #2 and the recent Mania Adventure Christmas episode is pretty much Amy at her peak for me. Incorporate that and incorporate it well.

Eggman is a mad-man but he's also fun and bombastic. Even in serious situations, he should never be boring. He's like the Joker in that regard I guess. 

And while I'm comparing Sonic characters to Batman ones, Rouge is catwoman. Jewel thief, out for herself, anti-hero, manipulative connection to the government that's easy to exploit. You've got yourself a character. Shadow also I feel works best when he's an anti-hero too, working to fix things up his own way and not the Sonic way, which I can easily see leading to some butting heads in terms of ethics between the two of them. Omega's desire for revenge is one of the most interesting and unique things about the series in my opinion as well. He's not the kind of guy who fights for justice, rather, he ends up on your side depending on who it is you're going after and whether or not it lines up with his motivation. Ruthlessness and zero desire to listen to or adhere to the government or the heroes and their bullshit so long as it saw him destroying Eggman and his robots could easily make for spicy conflicts ahead.

Team Chaotix I fell in love with not only because of their strange and unique designs but also because of how incredibly misfit they are. However, the thing that pushed them over the edge for me was how minor their connection to the other characters in the cast was. In Heroes and Shadow, they're tasked with uncovering the most important stuff and yet they're relegated to being away from the main cast. The fact that they could affect the story while not hanging with Sonic and the others kind of jumped out at me as the coolest thing ever. I think it hit even more when Sonic X Season 3 hit and the three of them were flung into the story with their own ship and their own miny adventures through space. I really like this. I like the idea that they're pretty much on their own and have flashes of a connection with the other cast members. Kind of like the Guardians of the Galaxy. That's something that Generations and Forces did away with but whatever. They didn't try hard with their stories regardless so it's simple to see why they thought it was easily just to jumble everyone together.

Silver and Blaze I honestly wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole if I could help it but I don't want them to leave. Again, it's not like I hate them, it's just that we've reached a point to where their mere presence doesn't druge up a question or two and that sucks. Perhaps if Sonic 06 had released before Sonic Rush and sending Blaze to another dimension saw her memory being wiped when time was reset and her "somehow" becoming the princess of the Sol Dimension had been the structure of events than things would be easily to smooth over. The idea of a tragic separation through time and space that these two can't remember being the plot point that drives those two sounds at least a little different.

As they are now, I'd just keep Blaze relegated to stories about her dimension for now. Silver would also need to have it established that the future he comes from is indeed an alternate one so as not to set off any confusion regarding how his meddling isn't affecting anything. Make it a reveal that even he didn't know about because he's a naive idiot. Also, keep whatever it is that has Silver's future in ruins a secret. Not only is that more interesting and mysterious but it gives him an excuse to keep returning to the past to see what new development might have been the cause for his world's destruction.

On top of that, make sure the characters who appear have something to do. Even minor things are welcome. Not every game needs everyone around but if you want to try your hand at something like that, go for an Infinity War milestone while you're at it. Like what Forces should have been. Again.

It'd also be nice if Sonic had himself a little rogue's gallery of villains too. Perhaps even give Eggman his own Eggman's Dozen too. I'm making a lot of Batman and Avengers comparisons but this kind of is the way I view Sonic. Just a Marvel Cinematic Universe but with talking animals. 

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53 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Because Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 are still aimed squarely at kids and young teens. Sonic Team wasn't trying to aim for a much older audience with these games. They just noticed that their target audience of 12 year old boys liked violence and serious settings already. 

These games aren't directly aimed at adults. It's not really relevant to them being shit on the gameplay side of things, but I think it's worth considering before people try to go off about how silly and juvenile elements of these games tonally/story wise are. It's like...this isn't aimed at you. They never cared about what older people thought. 

Actually, at least in Shadow's case, I'd argue the concept had at least a bit to do with bad gameplay.  They tried to force in trends from a bunch of other places, and fumbled a bit in the process.  Sure; the faction system could have been done better, but I'm not sure of how exactly they could do guns better, and the excuses they came up with to make a super-fast character need vehicles that looked "cool" were just plain dumb.    Of course, nothing about the try-hard edgy pandering concept can even explain; let-alone justify, those maze Ark stages.  Those were awful ideas straight out of nowhere, and would still be awful in games whose themes weren't embarrassing.

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Gameplay

Sonic is not about speed. That was never true and even if it was, its a terrible philosophy to design a game around. Sonic is about discovering how to build and maintain momentum through skilled traversal of the level geometry. Speed is not the beginning of the gameplay loop, it's the end.

Characters & Narrative

Have some respect. Never lose sight of what the characters are and what they'd do. Let the story be at the mercy of that. Don't try to fit the characters into slots they weren't designed for.

Lore

In Sonic's world, humans are the majority and anthros like Sonic himself are descendants of "regular" animals that mutated at some point.

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I'm wondering how important people consider Sonic's origin to be. I know Sega forced Big Red Button to retool a project into Sonic Boom, as they wanted to tell the story at some point, but it seems kind it might be a minefield.

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Alright, continuing from what Mania is doing:

 

Gameplay-wise, i’d add a few new techniques to the cast, mainly those that fit with the one-button gameplay of the Genesis games. Knuckles’s wall-based Dash Climb from Advance 3 and Mighty’s Wall Jump, to name two.  More controversially, Sonic’s Jump-Dash/Homing Attack is also included as an unlockable reward for game completion. Perhaps a non-homing Jump Dash like Advance could be included? The Boost Mode from Advance 2 would also work as a new mechanic. 

Levels would continue a 2-Act structure, under most circumstances, with possible exceptions. Hidden stages can be discovered by taking another route. In a daring move, an all-new playable character could get introduced in the game. The Bonus Stages would include not only the Blue Sphere stages, but also the halfpipe and the Sonic 1 mazes. These stages now offer items to players, in addition to bonus content if enough are cleared.

 

Story-wise, the levels would now be a more consistent location, with better transitions between one another. More development of the location visited, and the villain’s plot has more impact.

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On 12/25/2018 at 5:55 AM, Mountaindewandsprite said:

How would you fix the Sonic franchise as far as lore, gameplay, narrative, and characterization are concerned?

1) Kill Sonic Boom design.

2) Kill Sonic The Movie design.

3) Make a big effort to mix classic and modern Sonic into a perfect hybrid that has the classic appealing while not being fully classic. I'm not an artist but I'm pretty sure someone talented can achieve this. 

4) Start making great games with this new design. It can be 2D or 3D, but stick to a single design and make sure gameplay is fun in any game.

5) Profit.

 

To me, as long as Sonic has so many incarnations, its future as a franchise is dark sure to the lack of identity.

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23 minutes ago, molul said:

1) Kill Sonic Boom design.

2) Kill Sonic The Movie design.

3) Make a big effort to mix classic and modern Sonic into a perfect hybrid that has the classic appealing while not being fully classic. I'm not an artist but I'm pretty sure someone talented can achieve this. 

4) Start making great games with this new design. It can be 2D or 3D, but stick to a single design and make sure gameplay is fun in any game.

5) Profit.

 

To me, as long as Sonic has so many incarnations, its future as a franchise is dark sure to the lack of identity.

I honestly have no problem whatsoever with continuing the modern sonic design if that's what SEGA wants. Especially if they were to reboot with a Sonic Adventure type of game, it'd make sense to go that route.

However I do think that theres a lot to be gained by going forward with the Mania/classic style at the forefront, and just find ways to add some of the good modern ideas at times when it fits. The benefit of this route is that its immediately idenitifiable, it has no baggage and stigmas, and has just recently released one of the highest rated Sonic games in the last 20 years and still is popular in the mainstream. It's an easy choice.

Really the most important things that would help get sonic back on track have a lot more to do with gameplay. The aesthetic choice is more of a branding issue. I can argue that using the classic branding would be better but I dont think its necessarily the only way as long as the core issues are addressed first.

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23 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Start from SA2, everything after never happened, build on the events from Classic to SA2 onwards. Take elements from the retconned parts and incorporate it into the new world as needed. The world is a human/animal mixed world that has some areas purely animal, some purely human and some a mix of the two. Tone? Don’t really care, as long as it’s appropriate to whatever crazy adventure Sonic gets into and doesn’t forget that Sonic can be cartoony/silly/funny as well as serious/somber/dramatic AND that it stays consistent with the in universe logic presented. Also allow for rotating character cast so the story doesn’t only stick with Sonic, Tails and Eggman all the damn time, and so we don’t get Sonic and his fuckton of cheerleaders who do nothing like Generations and Forces.

And give the characters some more interaction with each other that isn’t just exposition for Pete’s sake! Flesh the ones you have out and give them more depth. Take the characters who might not have ever interacted in the past and see what kind of bizarre scenarios you can get out of them! Let them change, let them do stuff, let them be people and not just walking caricatures.

Also less Standup comedian acts unless it’s actually APPROPRIATE.

I agree with all of this. And while we're working of this relatively clean slate of canon, why not connect the the Classic locations into the overall lore like Angel Island was? Like, what if the Chaos Emeralds sealed within West Side Island were excavated by Gerald, and that's where Mystic Cave Zone comes from? How about even tying Little Planet into it all?

The clean slate may also lead to more unexpected character dynamics. For example, Knux could remember his job, and Amy could become the go-to third Team Sonic member instead. Shadow could remain dead, at least for a couple of games, and Rouge would investigate Project Shadow for some closure with the help of Vector and Espio.

With time, I think even some modern era ideas could be Adventure-ized and brought back. You could have Infinite powered by Eggman boss-themed cyborg augmentations rather than the cop-out Phantom Ruby. You could have the Wisps, but less cutesy and more mysterious (like the Kodama from Princess Mononoke), and their transformations could look more badass.

 

PoqwZ.jpg

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7 minutes ago, MasterDisaster64 said:

I agree with all of this. And while we're working of this relatively clean slate of canon, why not connect the the Classic locations into the overall lore like Angel Island was? Like, what if the Chaos Emeralds sealed within West Side Island were excavated by Gerald, and that's where Mystic Cave Zone comes from? How about even tying Little Planet into it all?

The clean slate may also lead to more unexpected character dynamics. For example, Knux could remember his job, and Amy could become the go-to third Team Sonic member instead. Shadow could remain dead, at least for a couple of games, and Rouge would investigate Project Shadow for some closure with the help of Vector and Espio.

With time, I think even some modern era ideas could be Adventure-ized and brought back. You could have Infinite powered by Eggman boss-themed cyborg augmentations rather than the cop-out Phantom Ruby. You could have the Wisps, but less cutesy and more mysterious (like the Kodama from Princess Mononoke), and their transformations could look more badass.

 

PoqwZ.jpg

Framing it like that makes me think of wisps as nature spirits, with their specific powers being Chaos energy at its purest form. Maybe even have Seedrians be a race of plant people who lives in harmony with them and represent nature at its peak. Of course the Metarex could become a form of ecoterrorist/nature themed extremists who believe in eradicating all life who they believe damages nature, including technology, even if technology can be used beneficially. I don’t think we’ve ever had any nature ideal villains in Sonic.

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1 hour ago, MasterDisaster64 said:

I agree with all of this. And while we're working of this relatively clean slate of canon, why not connect the the Classic locations into the overall lore like Angel Island was? Like, what if the Chaos Emeralds sealed within West Side Island were excavated by Gerald, and that's where Mystic Cave Zone comes from? How about even tying Little Planet into it all?

The clean slate may also lead to more unexpected character dynamics. For example, Knux could remember his job, and Amy could become the go-to third Team Sonic member instead. Shadow could remain dead, at least for a couple of games, and Rouge would investigate Project Shadow for some closure with the help of Vector and Espio.

With time, I think even some modern era ideas could be Adventure-ized and brought back. You could have Infinite powered by Eggman boss-themed cyborg augmentations rather than the cop-out Phantom Ruby. You could have the Wisps, but less cutesy and more mysterious (like the Kodama from Princess Mononoke), and their transformations could look more badass.

 

PoqwZ.jpg

Though we could probably begin with retelling some of the pre-Unleashed games to address inconsistencies and whatnot, before ignoring Unleashed and onwards as a narratives. 

 

Also, maybe the Deadly Six would look more like Void now, more “off-Mobian” and not so comical, sorta like villains from Tokusatsu series. The Hard-Boiled Heavies could be androids instead of Egg Robos. 

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On 12/25/2018 at 12:46 PM, Heckboy said:

Both of these are vastly more entertaining and interesting than any "cohesive lore".

You could also just engage with art meant for grown-ups.

And before I get snarkily reprimanded by a mod for being snarky or whatever, I'm being serious. Why continue to obsess over "fixing" a series that has clearly not been aimed at you for like 15 years? Like if you want to do some sort of creative exercise by trying to revamp an old series that's one thing, but these threads always devolve into "WHY CAN'T THE CORPORATE FRANCHISE FOR SEVEN YEAR OLDS CATER TO ME!?!?!" There's plenty of other quality stuff out there for kiddies and adults that you could spend your time with instead. 

I’m sorry, but this falls flat on its face when the likes of Mania and the revival of the Classic branch, while no less unapproachable for kids as the Modern branch, was without question marketed with older, adult fans in mind.

I’d almost go so far to say that Mania and what it brought was made primarily with older fans more than children given the former group was the one demanding it for the past decade, with Sega definitely trying (and failing) to cater to that group given what Sonic 4 was meant to be until the Mania team came along and delivered.

On top of that, there’s good marketing sense to have a broad demographic appeal for something like Sonic, and some would argue it’s downright stupid to ignore a potential market that would likely be interested in such a product if they expanded their horizon more given the amount of money that would bring. Funny enough, I’m pretty damn sure Sonic Team and Sega know this, but they unfortunately have bad practices or sense when it comes to delivering. The likes of Pontaff writing the games, for one, wasn’t decided by children complaining about the writing; the likes of Sonic being to dark and gritty than it could handle wasn’t decided by children criticizing the end results; the likes of Sonic-only gameplay sure as hell wasn’t decided by children annoyed by other characters; and the likes of a darker plot that Forces was sure as hell wasn decided by children annoyed by things that weren’t feeling like a challenge. Nor was bringing back classic Sonic gameplay decided by children complaining about Modern Sonic.

You’d probably argue “that’s the point,” but I argue that’s barely even touching the surface. Children will eat these things up regardless—give a 7 year old a copy of ShTH or Sonic 06 and I’m pretty sure they’ll have a TON of fun with it like a kid playing Sonic 3&K compared to a teenager adult who’s more picky and likely to find the obvious faults that bring it down or see that S3&K is a damn good game. But kids are not always the group going out to buy these products. And they certainly don’t have the income to buy them with such ease either unless their family is that loaded to give them everything.

Disney has done this almost consistently with their movies being catered toward a family audience—why do you think films like the Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan, Aladdin, among dozens of others are held as such classics to this very day by the same adults who used to be kids when it was released, or even those who were already adults at that time? Yeah, they have art and funny characters for kids, but they also engage adults with that and more, to the point that many of these films which are damn near three decades old can still be watched by grown men and women without them looking back on it as if it’s embarrassing to watch. Hell, even their newer movies, Zootopia, Moana, Wreck-It Ralph, and while I don’t care for it, Frozen, still continues to deliver and invite children and adults to enjoy them.

You know what this seems similar to? Classic Sonic. Although that can be debatable given the point I already made at the beginning.

These threads devolve into “"WHY CAN'T THE CORPORATE FRANCHISE FOR SEVEN YEAR OLDS CATER TO ME because these people want to enjoy the franchise like the kids that others constantly rebuke as “it’s not for you, it’s for kids.” They want to enjoy something they’ve been a part of and want to continue being part of for years—that’s why they’re fans. And I’d wager that even Nintendo, creators of the very “kiddy” Mario and the go to example of a company the opposition likes to point at and insult them as a “kiddie company”—while still buying their damn games, ironically enough—would laugh in your face given all the games they’ve made for all ages to be a part of, each different from the other but all still playable and fun whether you 5 years old or 50. Yeah, Mario seems like the character designed for 10 year olds, but we still have plenty of 20, 30, even 40 year olds playing them who are far more vocal about it than the kids will be for that time. And whether we’re talking Megaman, Zelda, Pokemon, Disney, Marvel, and so forth (oh believe me, I have a huge list I can make for you) the entire idea is the same.

It may be rather self-absorbed the way some subsets of this fandom go about it, but it’s not unusual. It’s not unreasonable to be upset about not feeling included in something, especially when they’ve long been a part of it for years—it’s the same kind of feeling many Classic fans have been vocal about until they finally got Mania. Why we’re now criticizing others for the same thing, or for wanting something damn near every major multimedia franchise does and succeeds in that Sonic keeps fumbling to achieve due primarily to bad and arbitrary decisions, reeks of a myopic view that one should really know better at this point. Kids may be enjoying the games, but they’re not the ones calling the shots, giving the inputs, or even only ones being catered to. This franchise’s wonky history is proof of that in itself.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I include Teens along with adults. A lot of people forget about them, but they’re usually just as picky in tastes as adults.

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2 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Framing it like that makes me think of wisps as nature spirits, with their specific powers being Chaos energy at its purest form. Maybe even have Seedrians be a race of plant people who lives in harmony with them and represent nature at its peak. Of course the Metarex could become a form of ecoterrorist/nature themed extremists who believe in eradicating all life who they believe damages nature, including technology, even if technology can be used beneficially. I don’t think we’ve ever had any nature ideal villains in Sonic.

See, this is the logical continuation of the themes established in Sonic 1 and iterated on in CD. It just makes too much sense. Maybe to go with the CD connections, Little Planet could be an important location in this theoretical game.

1 hour ago, Miragnarok said:

Though we could probably begin with retelling some of the pre-Unleashed games to address inconsistencies and whatnot, before ignoring Unleashed and onwards as a narratives. 

Not too sure about this. The great thing with this kind of reboot is being able to tell new stories without being restricted by the dark age and meta era. I don't think they should use it to retell existing games just to fix some plotholes. Using individual ideas, like Infinite or the Wisps or Eggman ruling the world? Sure. But straight retelling seems like a bit of a waste.

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11 minutes ago, MasterDisaster64 said:

See, this is the logical continuation of the themes established in Sonic 1 and iterated on in CD. It just makes too much sense. Maybe to go with the CD connections, Little Planet could be an important location in this theoretical game.

Not too sure about this. The great thing with this kind of reboot is being able to tell new stories without being restricted by the dark age and meta era. I don't think they should use it to retell existing games just to fix some plotholes. Using individual ideas, like Infinite or the Wisps or Eggman ruling the world? Sure. But straight retelling seems like a bit of a waste.

You know what’d be even scarier? A villain who matches the whole combination of nature and technology ideal, but remains evil nonetheless! Scourge, maybe? 

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3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

 

Also, maybe the Deadly Six would look more like Void now, more “off-Mobian” and not so comical, sorta like villains from Tokusatsu series.

Since I don't have an easy means of drawing & uploading things, I have to ask: what would Zavok, Zik, and especially Zomom look like?

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