How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Goggle definition: "disgust or sicken (someone) with an excess of sweetness, richness, or sentiment."

 

Oh. It sounded like a verb and you're the only other person I remember using it.

8 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it would work if they at least tried to deconstruct the archetypes more often, not just have them play the same shtick over and over which shows what they have at face value is genuinely all they have

Mm.

Is that really a thing with Cream, though? The only thing I remember touching on that was an episode of Sonic X and the biggest example of that was played more for laughs(?).

8 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'll give credit to Lost World for trying, even if it was a very haphazardous result that lacked a lot of direction. I could argue that only further proves the writers are not used to giving these characters any depth.

Cream was in Lost World?

But yeah, that definitely an overarching factor.

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Battle was probably the nearest to deconstructing Cream's character, with the consequences of her being the pacifistic morality pet having brutal repercussions throw in front of her, realising she has more or less accidentally emotionally manipulated a friend in getting dismantled for the sake of her fragility.

It was also the only game to do much with Cream's characterization to my knowledge. Although there is Colors DS, which I don't remember seeing much of. And what I do know is "Good morning."

I also found the progression of her story kinda off.

[E-122-Psi]

29 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Cream was in Lost World?

But yeah, that definitely an overarching factor.

No, I just meant the cast as a whole.

I think that was the game you could tell they hadn't worked with Tails as a flawed character for a VERY long time. They did Eggman alright-ish, and while they got the concept of Sonic down somewhat, it was very awkwardly flowed into the story (made more glaring given the plot of Sonic being reckless or cocky and facing consequences had already been done several times in other medias with better direction, to the point it's arguably the biggest recurring story outside of Knuckles being tricked by Eggman). It is probably the nearest to a proper character study of the main three in the games series, which is kinda sad to say.

Even just sort of the simple parable format kinda works, Sonic Boom did a similar thing with it's cast for example, allowing them to flesh out their flaws and dynamics. I suppose SatAm and Sonic X did it to some level too, but the problem was they kept picking on the same characters for the same characteristics. It often felt less like a character study and more like just "punishing the complainer for not being a team player".

[Scritch the Cat]

44 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Goggle definition: "disgust or sicken (someone) with an excess of sweetness, richness, or sentiment."

 

I think it would work if they at least tried to deconstruct the archetypes more often, not just have them play the same shtick over and over which shows what they have at face value is genuinely all they have. I'll give credit to Lost World for trying, even if it was a very haphazardous result that lacked a lot of direction. I could argue that only further proves the writers are not used to giving these characters any depth.

Battle was probably the nearest to deconstructing Cream's character, with the consequences of her being the pacifistic morality pet having brutal repercussions throw in front of her, realising she has more or less accidentally emotionally manipulated a friend in getting dismantled for the sake of her fragility.

Not close enough for my tastes, though.  She still never did any fighting herself; Cheese did, leaving her with the dullest moveset in the game and making me wonder why she had to be convinced to do what she was already fine with doing in Sonic Advance 2.  Instead of feeling like character development, it felt like putting a neon sign on character traits I dislike and establishing that they won't change.  Espoo should have gotten in instead.

[Kuzu]

It's hilarious for how much people ragged on Boom, it manages to use the characters in fun and inventive ways 

[E-122-Psi]

7 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's hilarious for how much people ragged on Boom, it manages to use the characters in fun and inventive ways 

It IS done in a very sitcom-y way however. I mean I liked the personality exposure at times but some of the jokes were very hit and miss.

The only one I thought was kind of lacking was Sticks, I would have loved some episodes they went full on Dale Gribble with her paranoia, but she tended to be just classified as comic relief or in 'crazy character was right all along' plot lines. She's kind of like Pinkie Pie, she gets a free pass for being flawed most of the time because she's kooky. Even more like Pinkie Pie, she kinda got annoying and one note without ever getting punished for it (which I could argue is a thing for a lot of the comic relief Sonic characters).

[DabigRG]

15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

No, I just meant the cast as a whole.

.

That...that was rhetorical.

15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think that was the game you could tell they hadn't worked with Tails as a flawed character for a VERY long time. They did Eggman alright-ish, and while they got the concept of Sonic down somewhat, it was very awkwardly flowed into the story.

It is probably the nearest to a proper character study of the main three in the games series, which is kinda sad to say.

Oh definitely.

Though the fact that Misters Pontac and Graff were tasked with coming up with the story themselves should also say something there as well.

17 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

(made more glaring given the concept of Sonic being reckless or cocky and facing consequences had already been done several times in other medias with better direction anyway, to the point it's arguably the biggest recurring story outside of Knuckles being tricked by Eggman).

They are two of the biggest and oldest characters in the series, so at least one of those is justified.

 

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I suppose SatAm and Sonic X did it to some level too, but the problem was they kept picking on the same characters for the same characteristics. It often felt less like a character study and more like just "punishing the complainer for not being a team player".

Sonic is definitely a product of the 90s, so that's no surprise. With or without the fact that I've seen both.

[E-122-Psi]

8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That...that was rhetorical.

I had a feeling it might have been, but sarcasm is harder to clarify in written word so just in case.

 

8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh definitely.

Though the fact that Misters Pontac and Graff were tasked with coming up with the story themselves should also say something there as well.

Well by their own admittance they didn't play the games. Sonic and Eggman are archetypes that are quite easy to get down so I suspect they could get the gist of their characters by what little they'd already done of them. Tails however had been toned down for quite some time, you had to really look into past interpretations to get all his facets down pat, so there was some awkward improvisation there.

They are two of the biggest and oldest characters in the series, so at least one of those is justified.

Sonic's impulsiveness at least plays into a very inherent character trait of his. Knuckles being gullible has kinda just become a formula now.

8 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Sonic is definitely a product of the 90s, so that's no surprise. With or without the fact that I've seen both.

Fair play really.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Not close enough for my tastes, though.  She still never did any fighting herself; Cheese did, leaving her with the dullest moveset in the game and making me wonder why she had to be convinced to do what she was already fine with doing in Sonic Advance 2. 

That's what happens when you introduce a character in games that have little in the way of an exact story & a game where she's sharing the minimal story with other established characters and then try to develop them in a flawed manner.

But yeah, it is kinda weird how the fighting game didn't give her at least two moves where she attacks or counters herself. Ah well.

8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

establishing that they won't change.  

But she does....?

11 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 Espoo should have gotten in instead.

Ah yes, Espoo the Camelot. Vhere iz that archetypical -----.

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well by their own admittance they didn't play the games. Sonic and Eggman are archetypes that are quite easy to get down so I suspect they could get the gist of their characters by what little they'd already done of them. Tails however had been toned down for quite some time, you had to really look into past interpretations to get all his facets down pat, so there was some awkward improvisation there.

I was referring to how they made the choice to study the characters as it were that time, but that is true too.

What's fascinating about Tails to me is that, likely a continuation from how they wrote Generations, they clearly did their research and just didn't have a good enough grasp on how Tails should emote. I mean, they technically drew from Riders, of all things.

17 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's hilarious for how much people ragged on Boom, it manages to use the characters in fun and inventive ways 

Eh, it was a lot of being too different for some plus the carry over sentiment from Rise of Lyric.

But yeah, I really appreciated what that show was doing.

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I was referring to how they made the choice to study the characters as it were that time, but that is true too.

What's fascinating about Tails to me is that, likely a continuation from how they wrote Generations, they clearly did their research and just didn't have a good enough grasp on how Tails should emote. I mean, they technically drew from Riders, of all things.

I feel like Boom was taking Lost World's attempt at Tails and fine tuning it into a more sensical approach of the character. They did similar plays on his ego, insecurities and childishness, but it worked within Tails' old character, and they even knew how to more accurately revive old aspects of him like his naivety.

In Lost World's defence, Tails had been an exposition machine for a very long time, even ones like SA1 to some degree which were actually trying to develop his character. An inherent personality seldom oozed from games Tails, at least besides his 2D sprites.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

I feel like Boom was taking Lost World's attempt at Tails and fine tuning it into a more sensical approach of the character. They did similar plays on his insecurities and childishness, but it worked within Tails' old character, and they even knew how to more accurately revive old aspects of him like his childish bubbliness.

I...suppose? 

I mean, yeah, Boom!Tails in particular was so close to his game counterpart that it was relatively easy for them write him character wise. And since its also character+situation driven in set environments most of the time, that meant it got to use different aspects of him and the other characters in various scenarios that you are unlikely to get in the games, much less with as much duration.

It's just ironic from my perspective since Boom is what made me realize I find him a little boring overall.

[E-122-Psi]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I...suppose? 

I mean, yeah, Boom!Tails in particular was so close to his game counterpart that it was relatively easy for them write him character wise. And since its also character+situation driven in set environments most of the time, that meant it got to use different aspects of him and the other characters in various scenarios that you are unlikely to get in the games, much less with as much duration.

It's just ironic from my perspective since Boom is what made me realize I find him a little boring overall.

Odd because Boom Tails is pretty much the point I considered him abolishing the 'boring' status for me.

Granted Boom is the far more character driven format, so if his personality fails to appeal to you in that interpretation I guess it becomes more obvious it's the character and not the plot. There is after all many characters we can think don't quite meet their quota but would if the story used them to fuller potential.

[Kuzu]

I think we can conclude its not that Tails is bland, its that the game writers use him in incredibly bland ways. He CAN be a good and entertaining character with this modern potrayal, but the video game writers have no grasp on how to do that, so they just default to just making him exposition because he's "smart" and smart guys exposit right?

Colors onward tries to take him in a different direction, but then they basically make him into a second Sonic in terms of snark without any of his actual unique traits. He's just snarky...and that's it. Sonic is already snarky, so it makes Tails feel redundant in that regard. 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Odd because Boom Tails is pretty much the point I considered him abolishing the 'boring' status for me.

Granted Boom is the far more character driven format, so if his personality fails to appeal to you in that interpretation I guess it becomes more obvious it's the character and not the plot. There is after all many characters we can think don't quite meet their quota but would if the story used them to fuller potential.

I mean, I say this a lot, but I'll reiterate it here; Boom Tails is my favorite version of Tails and I wish he were canon. Goddammit.

[E-122-Psi]

27 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I think we can conclude its not that Tails is bland, its that the game writers use him in incredibly bland ways. He CAN be a good and entertaining character with this modern potrayal, but the video game writers have no grasp on how to do that, so they just default to just making him exposition because he's "smart" and smart guys exposit right?

Colors onward tries to take him in a different direction, but then they basically make him into a second Sonic in terms of snark without any of his actual unique traits. He's just snarky...and that's it. Sonic is already snarky, so it makes Tails feel redundant in that regard. 

I think intellectual characters are harder to pronounce foibles and quirks inherently into, I mean boneheaded characters come in huge varieties and are quite easy to make colourful, but with intelligent characters there often needs to be more of a balance, hence them so easily just streamlined into straight men and ending up kinda boring. (Archie was pretty bad with this for a while for example, most of their smart characters had more circumstantial hardships or had to be randomly act like the bonehead characters for their token flawed moments, otherwise they were often of similar expositional sane men archetypes, Sally for example only screwed up when she 180ed her methodical character and acted reckless and impulsive like Sonic, making her inherent character flawed is possible though obviously there's a more complex process showing a character trying to make all the careful precautions and STILL making bad decisions).

The most common and accessible flaw to give an intelligent character is pomposity, awareness and over estimation of how smart they are. I think this quick fix ended up seeping into Tails in Lost World a little too much. This I think is an oversimplification. People that are smart are known to be overconfident, they have a better ability to rationalise things as they desire than dumb people, but there's more complex psychology there that's not just in the form of one note snobbish egotism. This is maybe why Boom Tails worked better, he had over confidence in his smarts, but he wasn't classified as a confrontational egomaniac.

[Kuzu]

Here's the thing though; Tails is smart...but he's also a child. That's something the writers kind of forget. He is twice as young as Sonic, and only the second youngest character only beaten by Cream and Charmy. There are plenty of relatable flaws you can write in a character like that, even with Tails` intelligence, there are still plenty of things he wouldn't know being a child that he could learn from Sonic, who may not be as intellectually smart but has far more worldly experience he can pass onto Tails. 

Its like writers are so damn afraid of actually trying to do anything with him at all. 

[E-122-Psi]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Here's the thing though; Tails is smart...but he's also a child. That's something the writers kind of forget. He is twice as young as Sonic, and only the second youngest character only beaten by Cream and Charmy. There are plenty of relatable flaws you can write in a character like that, even with Tails` intelligence, there are still plenty of things he wouldn't know being a child that he could learn from Sonic, who may not be as intellectually smart but has far more worldly experience he can pass onto Tails. 

Its like writers are so damn afraid of actually trying to do anything with him at all. 

That would require a complex merging of multiple character traits however, and for a long time the Sonic franchise was used to just reusing the same one or two for each character, mostly ones that didn't juxtapose each other too much which would require more dot connecting (I could argue Knuckles' gullibility mixed with his usual standoffishness COULD work together for example, if they were developed into some cohesive character writing).

[Scritch the Cat]

Here's a better idea: Let the characters age.  Not to the extent that they get feeble and then die, but to the extent that once you've done everything you can do with them as a child with a child's flaws, you move on to something else that is new and familiar to the character at the same time.  An older Tails could be more like Tony Stark, except a bit more awkward and bit less bullheaded.

The funny thing for me is that Sonic himself feels like has aged; in that a lot of his modern personality seems to think of things like "Well, here we go again; I know it'll end happily so might as well!" instead "This evil doctor must be stopped" or "This is new and looks exciting".  It makes everyone else feel more stale, I reckon.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Odd because Boom Tails is pretty much the point I considered him abolishing the 'boring' status for me.

Granted Boom is the far more character driven format, so if his personality fails to appeal to you in that interpretation I guess it becomes more obvious it's the character and not the plot.

I believe the distinction came more from comparison, namely with the other main/starring characters: I usually liked with Eggman, Knuckles, or Amy got an episode and really appreciated Sticks getting the spotlight, but when it came to the others, Sonic himself just seemed to have better limelight overall compared to Tails. This is most likely because, of the cast, Tails was the most normal and wasn't as fun, variable, or novel to focus on. It didn't really help that half of the episodes I remember starring him seemed formulaic. 

By extension, this carried over to the game version, who while then recent games had been making efforts make him feel like he matters as a person again, was just very neutral a character in addition to just always being around.

[Kuzu]

33 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

That would require a complex merging of multiple character traits however, and for a long time the Sonic franchise was used to just reusing the same one or two for each character, mostly ones that didn't juxtapose each other too much which would require more dot connecting (I could argue Knuckles' gullibility mixed with his usual standoffishness COULD work together for example, if they were developed into some cohesive character writing).

Crazy I know, it's almost like the writers need to...actually flesh these characters out beyond the two-dimensional archetypes they've been for years. Crazy I know.

 

I don't remember much from Archie's history, but I'll at least give them props that they were able to do different things with the characters even if those things were....weird. 

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Colors onward tries to take him in a different direction, but then they basically make him into a second Sonic in terms of snark without any of his actual unique traits. He's just snarky...and that's it. Sonic is already snarky, so it makes Tails feel redundant in that regard. 

It's funny because I feel Colors is indeed the first game in a long time to actually make him feel like a character who can interact. It's not what Forces or even Lost World tried to do with him, but I actually felt his presence and the sense that it sorta mattered that time around.

[Kuzu]

Just now, DabigRG said:

It's funny because I feel Colors is indeed the first game in a long time to actually make him feel like a character who can interact. It's not what Forces or even Lost World tried to do with him, but I actually felt his presence and the sense that it sorta mattered that time around.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's because Tails went for so long without an actual personality, that him actually having one came across as a surprise. I don't mind how he is in Colors though, and it's definitely the least offensive he's been since the series` current direction.

But like...like Psi said; characters are more than one character traits at any given time. They should be able to laugh, to cry, to get angry, etc etc. But Sega are just content with just keeping them as static as possible and it just them all so boring. And when they laugh, cry, and get angry it should make sense instead of the piss poor attempts they've been trying. 

 

That's my biggest fix; actually start giving a damn and make these characters into CHARACTERS and do some damn quality control on how they're written. I'm not asking for mega drama or anything, but just consistent and competent writing. 

[Mountaindewandsprite]

4 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

 Cream is just a less interesting Tails being upstaged by a chao sidekick who is just as cute but more awesome.

This. And pretty much the fact that SEGA tried to replicate the relationship of Sonic and Tails with Amy and Cream.

[Sonic Fan J]

20 hours ago, DabigRG said:

This post is so long that I forgot what else I wanted to say.

Sorry about that, I kind of started going there and outside of you I think I scared away everyone else  Me and my wordiness hasn't been much of a problem here yet so I guess it was bound to happen. But to your responses

20 hours ago, DabigRG said:

They could also just introduce a particular treasure or landmark that he was checking out.

Only problem is then is that you have to address something every game to explain why is there, and why I would appreciate that the general consensus is that it shouldn't have to be done. For that reason I felt my suggestion of just adding this line

22 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

when Knuckles leaves Angel Island on his own business, when/if he bumps into Sonic he'll help him out due to his friendship and rivalry with him.

to his core supplemental material covers that base so you know he has his duty but no longer need to explain every appearance as you just know he was already doing his thing and just got involved with Sonic. It also makes life easier for SEGA's lazy approach and keeps Knuckles totally available all of the time and if you wanted to invest more in him leaves an avenue for his Master Emerald duties to be relegated to his own spin offs. (Sorry for repeating myself but figured I would try to squeeze this in without my wall of text so others could read it easier).

20 hours ago, DabigRG said:

That's what happens when you got for a particular dynamic, but reserve the first meeting to the manuel. And the character's introduction to a handheld that comes out earlier!

Funny thing is that worked for Tails as most people know his first meeting with Sonic via the western manuals. As for why Tails probably worked better than Cream I'll wager it has to do with the times and the importance that instruction manuals used to have as well as a lack of in game story telling in the franchise at the time. Cream was introduced when in game story telling was a thing and so the expectation of having her relationship explored in game and not getting it probably didn't help matters.

20 hours ago, DabigRG said:

The images that popped into my head...

 

Think I'll go with, "And thus, the Thunder Shoot was born!"

I probably don't even want to know 

19 hours ago, DabigRG said:

...Holy shit...

As for this I don't know if this was reacting to my crazy thought process in surprise or disbelief that I could come up with all of this.

19 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Two different kinds of compassionate and crazy, eh? 

I like the way you think, Jessie. That sounds great.

And pretty much. It just made sense at the time I wrote it so...

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's because Tails went for so long without an actual personality, that him actually having one came across as a surprise. I don't mind how he is in Colors though, and it's definitely the least offensive he's been since the series` current direction.

 

I suppose that's accurate-ish enough an assessment.

The main way I can describe Tails during most of the post-Adventure games would be hapless, usually being left behind by Sonic or trying to hold conversations with some of the others a bit sheepishly. And given that the others, particularly Shadow, had a lot more going with them, even that much is more about when you actually think the boy. 

I think some of the more memorable(and active) moments with him I can think of are from 06, where he had a little more pep about him. Particularly his first appearance in that game.

14 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

But like...like Psi said; characters are more than one character traits at any given time. They should be able to laugh, to cry, to get angry, etc etc. But Sega are just content with just keeping them as static as possible and it just them all so boring. And when they laugh, cry, and get angry it should make sense instead of the piss poor attempts they've been trying. 

That's my biggest fix; actually start giving a damn and make these characters into CHARACTERS and do some damn quality control on how they're written. I'm not asking for mega drama or anything, but just consistent and competent writing. 

That'd definitely help and be appreciated, yes.

 

[DabigRG]

Okay, I've been my feet on doing anything with this and both attempts to go through the cutscenes had me opt out, so I just pulled up the scripts to each story so I can quickly sum this up. Following up on these posts from about three weeks ago.

On 1/9/2019 at 1:11 AM, DabigRG said:

So based on a tangential prompt I don't really remember from the IDW thread, I thought of a significant change for 06's story. 

I don't remember the exact number and it's been quite a few years since I felt the need to go watch it's cutscenes, but it probably would've helped if the amount of times Elise was abducted was about half and/or only three or at most four times. 

On 1/9/2019 at 7:47 AM, DabigRG said:

According to Johnny, it was 5, including.

So yeah, I would've tried to limit it to two outright kidnappings and one surrender. I'll need to review the story overall before really going into detail about how and what. 

Indeed, three is a good number of times for Elise to be taken by Eggman in order to eventually gain control over her powers. It segues pretty well with the three act structure and helps provide convenient checkpoints for Elise's development over the course of the game. Of course, to attain this number, two of the kidnappings that happen in the game proper need to be cut

• The first kidnapping is at the very beginning of the game, where Sonic attempts to get Elise away from Eggman's attempted abduction at the Sun Festival, only to be distracted by an interception party of Egg Gunners. Elise is captured by Eggman himself, but not before throwing her Blue Chaos Emerald to Sonic for safekeeping.
• The second kidnapping happens once Sonic and Elise have reentered the town, where they are ambushed by Silver the Hedgehog. After witnessing Silver gain the upper hand and move in to finish "The Iblis Trigger," Eggman swoops in while Sonic is incapacitated and flies off with Elise to White Acropolis.
• The third kidnapping is after Elise decides to escape her cell block with unexpected assistance from Amy. After a conversation about love, Elise attempts to reenter her castle when Eggman and a whole pack'a robots corner her on the bridge.
• The fourth kidnapping happens after Sonic and Shadow manage to stop Eggman's Radical Train, when Silver once again attacks Sonic. Eggman, after a conversation with Shadow, has his Eggmobile capture Elise and attempts to fly off with her.
• The final kidnapping is during the final parts of Sonic's Story, where Eggman holds Soleanna itself ransom in exchange for Elise.

As I and whoever-it- was have stated before, at least two of these kidnappings are not only unnecessary, but somewhat monotonous to the overall story progress. As such, the middle kidnappings will be cut and/or meddled with each other to allot a better flowing story and by extension, certain events and/or cutscenes need to be adjusted accordingly. And due to most of these event taking place in there, this will affect the progression of Silver's Story as well and for good reason.