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The Making of: Sonic Adventure (New Iizuka Interview)


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28 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean yeah but maybe let's...try not to do that? Even if you think there's enough in SA worth remaking, there are a lot of opportunities for things to go wrong with it. I don't think the odds of it working out are good.

But hype's not worth much if you can't follow up on it. If you hype something up and it fails, you get a bigger backlash than if it had been just business as usual.

And I don't expect to ever get everyone on board with the same ideas. But I also don't think it's a good idea to actively chase after things that we know are divisive and risky. At least not unless there's a payoff worth the risk, and I really don't see it here.

Man you're talking about a remake, and you were just talking about how you want them to go back and iterate on the Adventure gameplay because it's the best they've done so far rather than trying something new and experimental. You're not actually advocating for anything gutsy.

And I'm not saying the games should be limp and cowardly. Far from it, I want Sonic to go big and bold. But I don't see how remaking SA is the way to do that.

There's always opportunities for things to go wrong, things have been going wrong in this series for years. Things are STILL going wrong in this series for years. Sturgeon's Law and all that. Still think they should go for it. 

An Adventure remake would be far more gutsy than anything they've done in recent years besides Lost World. But you wanna know the difference?  Sonic Adventure is something they've done before and have opportunity to correct certain things rather than experimenting with something they've never tried before and falling flat on their ass. It's a style they haven't touched since 2006, and it's the only style of gameplay that people in general enjoyed despite it's shortcomings out of almost every 3D game. 

If you don't care and prefer something else, cool. But they've been trying other shit for two decades. TWO. And none of those attempts have come anywhere near to what they've tried with Adventure.  I'm really not seeing any reason for them for them not do it and the only rebuttal you've given is rooted in your own pessimism from the constant shortcomings from the series. 

 

I'm not even saying it would be good. It could very well suck, and blow and all that. But there's no reason for them not to try. At least let them attempt to do it and fail rather than never try at all. Like you said, if it fails, then its just something we know was doomed from the start. 

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2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

There's always opportunities for things to go wrong, things have been going wrong in this series for years. Things are STILL going wrong in this series for years. Sturgeon's Law and all that. Still think they should go for it. 

Yes, sure, bad things keep happening regardless but like...some ideas are still better than others? And remaking SA seems to have a lot of obstacles and risks for fairly mild benefits so I would not call it one of the better ideas.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

An Adventure remake would be far more gutsy than anything they've done in recent years besides Lost World.

Okay but like, maybe be gutsier than all of that stuff? Instead of more tepid boost games or retreating back to SA, try to figure out something better.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It's a style they haven't touched since 2006, and it's the only style of gameplay that people in general enjoyed despite it's shortcomings. 

If you don't care and prefer something else, cool. But they've been trying other shit for two decades. TWO. And none of those attempts have come anywhere near to what they've tried with Adventure. So unless there some magical formula that we don't know about, I'm really not seeing any reason for them for them not do it besides people's own pessimism that's rooted in years of bad games. 

You're slipping back and forth between remaking SA and just making an Adventure-like game. The latter, fine, I don't think it's the best route to go, but I don't think it's a terrible one (as long as it's not trying to be "Sonic Adventure 3"). It's remaking SA specifically where a lot of problems start to crop up.

But also, there's no "magical" formula, but there's a hell of a lot more possibilities out there than what this series has tried so far. It may be 20 years since the series first went 3D but they haven't actually done all that much experimenting with it. There's about a dozen main series games and maybe a couple of relevant spinoffs and you can trace a pretty clear line through most of them, to the point where the most recent games are still falling into a lot of the same traps as the first few. Sonic Team has barely even scratched the surface of what Sonic could be and I don't believe for a second that SA is the best or only worthwhile form it can take.

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Remaking something you made before is inherently a safe proposition. Even if you decide to go grand with it you have the ultimate cheat sheet to work off of. There's a reason why it's become so common in the Era of sky high game production values.

I'm all for this idea but when you consider a lot of the love for this game is based in it's controls and Sonic didn't even accelerate properly in the last game I understand why one would have reservations. That's just one of many, many things that can go wrong with a Sonic Adventure remake. I get anxious thinking about what they might do to the script. The soundtrack probably won't be tampered with, but they're garunteed to come short if they try. Nobody can agree about what to do about the alternate campaigns.

 

There's really not much I have to reassure someone that this could go fine. I'm only for it because I'm curious and I love Sonic Adventure. Anything resembling Sonic Adventure is gonna grab me. The sheer enthusiasm from Iizuka about the game even to this day makes me wonder if it'd light a spark in him to this day. The major shake up over just who is developing the next Sonic means this might be way better than the last few games based on new blood alone. As many ways as there are for things to go wrong, it's hard not to think about the ways it can go right and get excited. I love this game and I think shining a light on it's potential would be great. 

If it falls flat, that'll be rough, but I'm curious now and ultimately another so-so Sonic game won't be the end of things. If nothing else they'll be forced to finally serious grapple with how Sonic controls in low speed, curvy environments again to a degree. Remaking an old project might be the perfect testing ground for such a thing.

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48 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, sure, bad things keep happening regardless but like...some ideas are still better than others? And remaking SA seems to have a lot of obstacles and risks for fairly mild benefits so I would not call it one of the better ideas.

Okay but like, maybe be gutsier than all of that stuff? Instead of more tepid boost games or retreating back to SA, try to figure out something better.

You're slipping back and forth between remaking SA and just making an Adventure-like game. The latter, fine, I don't think it's the best route to go, but I don't think it's a terrible one (as long as it's not trying to be "Sonic Adventure 3"). It's remaking SA specifically where a lot of problems start to crop up.

But also, there's no "magical" formula, but there's a hell of a lot more possibilities out there than what this series has tried so far. It may be 20 years since the series first went 3D but they haven't actually done all that much experimenting with it. There's about a dozen main series games and maybe a couple of relevant spinoffs and you can trace a pretty clear line through most of them, to the point where the most recent games are still falling into a lot of the same traps as the first few. Sonic Team has barely even scratched the surface of what Sonic could be and I don't believe for a second that SA is the best or only worthwhile form it can take.

I don't really know what else I can say on the matter.

You don't think there is any merit in a Sonic Adventure remake, but I really have no faith they'd be able to pull of anything new and exciting either and you can't really give me any reason they shouldn't do a remake beyond thinking "it could be bad". A new game "could be bad" and new games have been bad.

A Sonic Adventure remake is probably the safest thing they can do because in that case, at least they'd have a reference on what can be fixed and improved. If they fucked that up, then that's on them. But the risk-reward ratio on an Adventure remake succeeding is higher than banking on yet another new style that they've never tried before.

So that's that, but I'm at least willing to entertain the idea because I love Sonic Adventure and am curious on what can be improved upon instead of thinking how bad its gonna be.

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Holy shit that website has the worst layout I’ve ever seen. At least on mobile, it’s a massive pain in the ass to read this. 

Also lol at the art director’s quote about Sonic becoming too safe and conservative. I really hope he feels the same about present-day Sonic. 

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Kinda hard to say, if a SA revival is really the way Sega should go with Sonic. I mean, sure, Crash and Spyro also got their revivals, but this was the first real nostalgia throwback for both series. Sonic does this all the time since Generation.

Also, wasn't Forces kinda like the SA games in some cases? It technically had all the elements that made the SA so popular, minus the Chao Garden: It had different gameplay styles, different playable characters, almost all of Sonic's friends where here, it had a darker story and tone, an over the top edgy villain, a lot of the levels are similar to the once in SA and SA2 in terms of aesthetics, a lot of the songs where vocal tracks and had the buttrock feeling from SA and SA2 etc.

I'm not sure if we need a SA revival because Forces did come very close to the formula. Not one to one, but close. 

 

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4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, sure, bad things keep happening regardless but like...some ideas are still better than others? And remaking SA seems to have a lot of obstacles and risks for fairly mild benefits so I would not call it one of the better ideas.

Okay but like, maybe be gutsier than all of that stuff? Instead of more tepid boost games or retreating back to SA, try to figure out something better.

You're slipping back and forth between remaking SA and just making an Adventure-like game. The latter, fine, I don't think it's the best route to go, but I don't think it's a terrible one (as long as it's not trying to be "Sonic Adventure 3"). It's remaking SA specifically where a lot of problems start to crop up.

But also, there's no "magical" formula, but there's a hell of a lot more possibilities out there than what this series has tried so far. It may be 20 years since the series first went 3D but they haven't actually done all that much experimenting with it. There's about a dozen main series games and maybe a couple of relevant spinoffs and you can trace a pretty clear line through most of them, to the point where the most recent games are still falling into a lot of the same traps as the first few. Sonic Team has barely even scratched the surface of what Sonic could be and I don't believe for a second that SA is the best or only worthwhile form it can take.

I'm not on anyone's side in this arguement but I do want to ask as to what new thing could they could do in terms of just how Sonic himself moves and controls. I don't think an Adventure remake is something that's inherently necessary but I'm at the point where following in the footsteps of a normal platformer where you simply hold forward on the control stick and run while gaining momentum seems like it would be the best option at hand. Thats not me advocating for the Adventure style. Thats just what it happens to be.

There's plenty they haven't scratched the surface of in terms of ideas regarding the world, its characters, and even some of the more unique tricks games use to make their levels more interesting. However, as far as finding ways to make Sonic move through a level I'm dry on ideas. I'm also not seeing why that specifically is what needs changing.

They've changed that too much and they keep the concepts and aesthetics relatively the same nowadays. I'd like that focus to be reversed myself. I'd like it if they just stuck to a specific and easy way to have Sonic move and then innovate with everything else surrounding the product.

In order for me to feel convinced that they need to focus on changing how he moves yet again and in order for me to believe that there's a ton more ways they can do that, I'm going to need specific examples of how it can be done. I can't think of any, nor do I want any, so I'm out of the running when it comes to that.

I just look at Mario and see how each game he's in has it look like the way he moves is working on the same general, basic idea. He moves forward and jumps on stuff. The game and world around him is always what seems to be what seperates the titles from one another. Maybe he'll have an added gimmick or two but thats bells and whistles compared to a completely new, currently imaginary way of making Sonic move thats yet to be discovered.

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I don't think they even have the ability to make these remakes because THERE IS NO PHYSICS in any of their games. After SA2 the physics disappeared in Sonic Heroes and forward.The only way they can even dream to remake SA1 is to hire actual physics programmers. Which isn't that hard considering that even amateur flash or mobile games programmers can make games with good physics...

I don't think we'll get a SA1 remake anytime soon, and if it's being remade, it's gonna sink Sonic lower than 2006 and Forces and the Movie. I hope I'm mistaken and they actually hire good programmers.

Another thing is, would you want to see SA1 with Lost World-tier writing? Imagine Super Sonic joking about Perfect Chaos.

200?cb=20120503100100Do you imagine him cracking jokes?

 

SA1 remake would be a parody of SA1.

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2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

They should remake SA1 and 2, change some stuff while making em. Maybe we don't need to play as big

 

Or just create a new game instead. If they have to chance, let's say, half of the stuff to make it work, why don't make a new game instead?

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Just now, Rowl said:

Or just create a new game instead. If they have to chance, let's say, half of the stuff to make it work, why don't make a new game instead?

Because going over those games gameplay and story over again could genuinely be interesting and if done well not only could solidify the 3d sonic games have value, but more so act as a reboot for that entire section of the franchise.

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I just don't see why remaking Adventure would be better than going back to and expanding upon Sonic's gameplay and controls from the Adventure games. Why remake a game we've replayed a million times when we could have something new?

Like, let's ignore the fact Adventure is fundamentally broken and that remaking it will make its flaws shine more, why can't we just have something new? I thought we were all bored of the nostalgia pandering? Or does that only apply to Classic Sonic.

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Many would consider some parts of that game too flawed to be worth remaking.  You could apply modern graphics to make things like facial explanations look better, outright re-stage some scenes, you could make it run more smoothly, you could fix the camera, but you'd still have half the cast playing in a way some would prefer they didn't.  Meanwhile, if you decided to remake it omitting things like Big the Cat, you'd just make purists mad as a cost.

Sonic Adventure 3 would be a safer option, as controversial choices can be more easily written off as "Meh; not what I would have done, and I wish they just gave those characters better gameplay instead of just removing them, but it's still a good game and there's always next time".  That is my opinion of Sonic Adventure 2 almost to a T; I missed Amy having a bigger role, could have even gone with Big being back and fixed, and resented how Tails was stuck in a mech, but I still considered it over all a better game than the first, and those other characters and flying Tails did come back in later games.

I believe that either option is not viable for the downsized team that is working on Sonic right now, though, and they need to be sure they can program more characters than just Sonic before they launch into something ambitious that entails such characters.

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8 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I just don't see why remaking Adventure would be better than going back to and expanding upon Sonic's gameplay and controls from the Adventure games. Why remake a game we've replayed a million times when we could have something new?

Like, let's ignore the fact Adventure is fundamentally broken and that remaking it will make its flaws shine more, why can't we just have something new? I thought we were all bored of the nostalgia pandering? Or does that only apply to Classic Sonic.

I'm tired of horrible nostalgia pandering because it comes off as cynical , things like mania done well... are... fine. A new sonic game would also be cool, I just those games being remade being neat.

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56 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

I don't think they even have the ability to make these remakes because THERE IS NO PHYSICS in any of their games. After SA2 the physics disappeared in Sonic Heroes and forward.The only way they can even dream to remake SA1 is to hire actual physics programmers. Which isn't that hard considering that even amateur flash or mobile games programmers can make games with good physics...

I don't think we'll get a SA1 remake anytime soon, and if it's being remade, it's gonna sink Sonic lower than 2006 and Forces and the Movie. I hope I'm mistaken and they actually hire good programmers.

Another thing is, would you want to see SA1 with Lost World-tier writing? Imagine Super Sonic joking about Perfect Chaos.

200?cb=20120503100100Do you imagine him cracking jokes?

 

SA1 remake would be a parody of SA1.

Everyone says this about every game and yet, here we are lol. Boom was the 06, then Forces was the next 06. I guess every game is gonna be the next 06 huh.

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I am wondering how many modern gamers would go for such a remake.  Some Sonic fans would, certainly, but for me, to enjoy Sonic Adventure enough to enjoy a remake of it is to enjoy it enough not to need a remake, if by remake they mean simply better visuals and engine.  Aside from lip-syncing, everything about that game still looks good to me, and at least the lip-syncing looks awful in a funny way.

If they actually approach it more like a movie remake, that is more telling the same story but with very different pieces, that could be different, but the difficulty of picking what belongs, what should stay and what should change would make the prospect difficult.

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Just now, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Everyone says this about every game and yet, here we are lol. Boom was the 06, then Forces was the next 06. I guess every game is gonna be the next 06 huh.

All Forces had to do is put Shadow or anyone else instead of Classic Sonic.

And have one origin for Infinite not 3.

Would have been a decent game.

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46 minutes ago, Marco9966 said:

All Forces had to do is put Shadow or anyone else instead of Classic Sonic.

And have one origin for Infinite not 3.

Would have been a decent game.

You missed my point entirely. Not every mediocre game is 06. I really wish people would stop comparing every new game in the series to it.

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I think Boom Rise of Lyric is comparable to 06. It caused a similar stain on Sonic's name which is still felt today and is a broken disaster of a game.

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3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

They should remake SA1 and 2, change some stuff while making em. Maybe we don't need to play as big

 

 Hell, I really wouldn’t mind if they strayed too far from the original in some aspects. Radically changing Knuckles and Amy’s gameplay styles and cutout Big entirely would be a plus. Purists be damned.

And they can rewrite the script in some areas to make things less narmy. Plus I’d love to hear Mike Pollocks rendition of “GET A LOAD OF THIS!”

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17 minutes ago, Tornado said:

What causes this inherent hope that a Iizuka-led Sonic Team, under Sega's supervision, holds Adventure up in such high esteem that this would be the one that they would put 100% into making sure was done right?

There's a bunch of stuff in your statement I don't quite agree with, BUT I do wanna respond to this.

Two reasons.

They have actively not done it until this point, even when they have had the oppertunity to name games to mine that nostalgia they have not done that. They seem to understand, whether they know what people like about that games or no, that there are expectations  that the games they were making was not going to meet. All we have gotten are call backs, because they don't want to go anywhere near what sonic adventure is.

Reason number 2 , which is split into two parts.

The potential money to be made if done correctly.

The potential money lost if done incorrectly.

Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 despite how you may feel or despite what you think the perception is on the internet, are games a lot of people like. Like... a lot, like " Sonic adventure 3 trending on twitter before the announced forces at the sonic event " a lot.  And if they remade those games well, whether it be the 1 for 1 way or the " make in kinda modern and different way " ( they should do the latter )   could make... a lot of money. And as people who work for a corporation , money sounds pretty neat. And even more money if it were to revitalize peoples interest in the 3d section of this franchise just like mania did for the 2d parts. A lot more money could be made in the future. On that same token, unlike the 2d section ( or rather a bit less so because there are a bunch of " sonic was never good " people ) if they mess up that, the entirety of the worth 3d sonic comes into question. No matter how bad things have gotten, sonic adventure 1 and 2 are held up as these things as 3d sonic should be. And for them to fuck up remakes of that, would be catastrophic to the recognition of 3d sonic , because they will have basically blown out what is the foundation.

These things in combination are why Sonic Team doesn't want to go there it seems, there's a lot of expectations and they don't want to mess things up because if they do , it could be really bad.

So I do think they hold in high regard, I think a good chunk of it is monetary at its core, but I do think so. But I think its going to get them to avoid doing it, rather than committing to it. Unless they find some other studio to do it, I guess

 

1 minute ago, Johnny Boy said:

 Hell, I really wouldn’t mind if they strayed too far from the original in some aspects. Radically changing Knuckles and Amy’s gameplay styles and cutout Big entirely would be a plus. Purists be damned.

And they can rewrite the script in some areas to make things less narmy. Plus I’d love to hear Mike Pollocks rendition of “GET A LOAD OF THIS!”

The Knuckles, and Subsequent Knuckles/Rouge gameplay styles I don't think need to be changed that much, I think the core of that is fine. Better level design, better controls, better camera. You are fine. Amy's sure. And yeah big get out. Also The Eggman/Tails thing in sa2 would probs need revamping too. Rewrites would be a must but there are cheese ball as lines that would need to stay. As much as Sonic adventure 2 needs the holy hell rewritten out of it, you can't take out the " faker " exchange. You just can't

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4 hours ago, Plasme said:

I just don't see why remaking Adventure would be better than going back to and expanding upon Sonic's gameplay and controls from the Adventure games. Why remake a game we've replayed a million times when we could have something new?

Well for one thing it could be used to test the market and see how people respond to an updated Adventure style of Gameplay. Or it could be to test out designers who were interested in doing a new Adventure Style game, sort of proof of concept .Or it could be to give fans a familiar but new experience not unlike Generations.

There's a number of reason to do it.

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2 hours ago, Tornado said:

Now put Sonic Team in that context. Twenty years removed from the inspiration and steady hands guiding that project, as part of Sega's "who gives a shit how much it costs" design philosophy of the time.  Twenty years removed from the torch passing of Naka and Ohshima that the original Adventure was for the series. Even if Sonic Team hadn't spent the last forever proving they could fuck up a cup of coffee, it's a pretty tall order to try and recreate the circumstances that led to the creation of Sonic Adventure; a lighting strike of the new and old of the series history to that point that culminated in a game that isn't even that good; but at least was earnest. What causes this inherent hope that a Iizuka-led Sonic Team, under Sega's supervision, holds Adventure up in such high esteem that this would be the one that they would put 100% into making sure was done right? Not the games they made that were direct followups to this that they screwed up. Not the games that were billed as direct sequels to the games that have unanimous public appeal. Not the games in sacred cow franchises that Iizuka-led Sonic Team shit up as soon as Naka left Sega entirely. But this one game is going to turn things around and not just be a grab for attention that gets people back in (which worked wonders following Generations).

I acknowledge all of this and admit this project probably wouldn't go well. "Fuck it, I'm curious." Is just about all I got for you which is probably what they're gonna be banking on if this becomes tangible.

 

Basically, I'm part of the problem. But fuck it, I'm curious!

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8 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You don't think there is any merit in a Sonic Adventure remake, but I really have no faith they'd be able to pull of anything new and exciting either and you can't really give me any reason they shouldn't do a remake beyond thinking "it could be bad". A new game "could be bad" and new games have been bad.

It's not just "it could be bad", but that remaking SA involves addressing a whole lot of issues that a new game wouldn't have to deal with. Tornado explained some of it better than I've managed.

8 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

A Sonic Adventure remake is probably the safest thing they can do because in that case, at least they'd have a reference on what can be fixed and improved. If they fucked that up, then that's on them. But the risk-reward ratio on an Adventure remake succeeding is higher than banking on yet another new style that they've never tried before.

They've still got 20 years and a dozen plus games to reference on what can be fixed and improved when they try to make a new game, if not as directly as if they were to remake a game. And again, if you want them to try to improve on SA, they can do that without directly remaking it, and avoid all the headaches that brings.

5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm not on anyone's side in this arguement but I do want to ask as to what new thing could they could do in terms of just how Sonic himself moves and controls.

I mean it's a hard thing to narrow down because I'm basically talking about "all possible things a 3D platformer can do", and I don't really have the means to test specific ideas to be sure they're actually any good. But as far as some areas they can improve or explore:

For a character known for running loop-de-loops they've done a pretty awful job of using walls and ceilings outside of scripted sections. Some of that is just a matter of level design, some of it could be improved by bringing back the slope physics, but I also think there could be a lot of benefits to parkour-like abilities, like wall jumps and wall running. Let Sonic interact with the whole of the level and not just a thin strip of floor.

The homing attack has gotten dull. There should be more to interacting with objects than just tapping jump and automatically performing an action. I still support bounce-forward rather than bounce-up on hit, but I also feel there should be more changes than just that, I'm just not sure what.

Maybe some ways to store your speed for later use. Maybe have a brake button that fills a meter based on how fast you were going, and then you can use that to boost off in another direction or for a super high or super long jump (kind of the same feel as Mario's long jump).

Really though these are just some half-baked ideas I'm throwing out there, my point isn't that I've solved 3D Sonic but that there are way more possibilities out there than just "SA Sonic or Unleashed Day".

5 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I just look at Mario and see how each game he's in has it look like the way he moves is working on the same general, basic idea. He moves forward and jumps on stuff.

I think that's underselling Mario a bit. Mario hasn't needed to radically change the way he moves, but they came up with something pretty solid from the start, and they've spent 20+ years positively iterating on it. As of Odyssey he's got a variety of jumps for a variety of situations, cap bouncing and diving which can be chained together for more distance and height, and rolling for faster ground travel, and it all links together smoothly and organically.

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