The Making of: Sonic Adventure (New Iizuka Interview)

[Tornado]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

They have actively not done it until this point, even when they have had the oppertunity to name games to mine that nostalgia they have not done that.

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The potential money lost if done incorrectly.

 

In particular, that sold so well and even did pretty well with critics that even though it was obvious that it was terrible the people who pointed that out and had been pointing that out from the start were publicly shamed for being unreasonable. That includes here on this forum of course; but even people like Legitimate Journalist Jim Sterling wrote entire columns about how pathetic Sonic fans were for hating good Sonic games like Sonic 4 Episode 1.

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

They seem to understand, whether they know what people like about that games or no, that there are expectations  that the games they were making was not going to meet.

 

 

 

"They knew they were too incompetent to do it well (not that they bothered warning anyone who were buying their games of that fact before), but simply saying they are going to do it would itself be proof that they would do it well"

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

And if they remade those games well, whether it be the 1 for 1 way or the " make in kinda modern and different way " ( they should do the latter )   could make... a lot of money.

Whether anyone at Sonic Team/Sega gave much a shit hasn't seemed to have been much a hindrance of whether something could make... a lot of money for the series in that past.

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And as people who work for a corporation , money sounds pretty neat.

durr tell me moar about money

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And even more money if it were to revitalize peoples interest in the 3d section of this franchise just like mania did for the 2d parts.

How well did that work out for the series post-Generations?

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if they mess up that, the entirety of the worth 3d sonic comes into question. No matter how bad things have gotten, sonic adventure 1 and 2 are held up as these things as 3d sonic should be. And for them to fuck up remakes of that, would be catastrophic to the recognition of 3d sonic , because they will have basically blown out what is the foundation.

Something that was done 20 years ago, was mostly abandoned the following game and was completely abandoned after that game, cannot be the "foundation" of a series that has continued releasing games since then. It also dramatically overstates just how many people who buy Sonic games in 2018 have ever played Sonic Adventure for it to be their concept of what 3D Sonic is. Games like Generations and Unleashed and Colors are the ones that make up the modern landscape of the series where the typical person is probably starting from who may have checked out Lost World or Forces. Someone a little older will have played Heroes and ShtH. Not games exclusive to failed consoles from three console generations ago that had lazy ports dumped on online stores eventually, regardless of the reverence that Adventure 1 and 2 still have. A remake would have a built in audience of people who are interested who might not ordinarily be simply because of the name, but that sounds an awful lot to me like a reason to assume that such a game may very well only be approved by Sega for cynical reasons.

 

 

Or, to make a direct comparison: People who lined up around the block to buy Reignited and N-Sane weren't all people who had a Playstation in 1999 and any actual experience with the good Spyro or Crash games. It's why even mediocre-at-best games like Enter the Dragonfly, Wrath of Cortex and (yes) Sonic Heroes were big deal titles that sold very well and are remembered fondly by people for whom the PS2 or Gamecube was their first console despite how terrible they were in comparison to the games that came before them. You look at the threads for those games and there are people saying that Wrath and Enter should be remade so they were like the three games of each series that were actually good; and it's not borne out of anything other than "it was the first game in the series I played because I was stuck with Nintendo consoles."

[Multikaris]

6 minutes ago, Tornado said:

 

In particular, that sold so well and even did pretty well with critics that even though it was obvious that it was terrible the people who pointed that out and had been pointing that out were publicly shamed for being unreasonable. That includes here on this forum of course; but even people like Legitimate Journalist Jim Sterling wrote entire columns about how pathetic Sonic fans were for hating good Sonic games like Sonic 4 Episode 1/

"They knew they were too incompetent to do it well (not that they bothered warning anyone who were buying their games of that fact before), but simply saying they are going to do it would itself be proof that they would do it well"

Whether anyone at Sonic Team/Sega gave much a shit hasn't seemed to have been much a hindrance of whether something could make... a lot of money for the series in that past.

durr tell me moar about money

How well did that work out for the series post-Generations?

Something that was done 20 years ago, was mostly abandoned the following game and was completely abandoned after that game, cannot be the "foundation" of a series that has continued releasing games since then. It also dramatically overstates just how many people who buy Sonic games in 2018 have ever played Sonic Adventure for it to be their concept of what 3D Sonic is. Games like Generations and Unleashed and Colors are the ones that make up the modern landscape of the series where the typical person is probably starting from who may have checked out Lost World or Forces. Not games exclusive to failed consoles from three console generations ago that had lazy ports dumped on online stores eventually, regardless of the reverence that Adventure 1 and 2 still have. A remake would have a built in audience of people who are interested who might not ordinarily be simply because of the name, but that sounds an awful lot to me like a reason to assume that such a game may very well only be approved by Sega for cynical reasons.

 

 

Or, to make a direct comparison: People who lined up around the block to buy Reignited and N-Sane weren't all people who had a Playstation in 1999 and any actual experience with the good Spyro or Crash games. It's why even mediocre-at-best games like Enter the Dragonfly, Wrath of Cortex and (yes) Sonic Heroes were big deal titles that sold very well and are remembered fondly by people for whom the PS2 or Gamecube was their first console despite how terrible they were in comparison to the games that came before them. You look at the threads for those games on SSMB and there are people saying that Wrath and Enter should be remade so they were good like the three games of each series that were actually good; and it's not borne out of anything other than "it was the first game in the series I played because I was stuck with Nintendo consoles."

Yeah, Sonic at least got ports of a good chunk of the earlier games, plus some decent handheld entries. 3D platformers from older big franchises in general were iffy in the early 6th generation; see also Megaman X7, the early 6th-gen Tomb Raider entries, and (yes) Super Mario Sunshine for instance. The most liked 6th-gen platformer, believe it or not, is a licensed game; SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom. The same thing also happened with fighting games. Look at poor Mortal Kombat, or worse, Bloody Roar. 

 

I’m personally willing to run this risk. I was for quite a while afraid that there would be no main Sonic game after Forces was an extremely cynically skinflint experience, so count me in on this sort of dare. 

 

[Wraith]

7 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I just look at Mario and see how each game he's in has it look like the way he moves is working on the same general, basic idea. He moves forward and jumps on stuff. The game and world around him is always what seems to be what seperates the titles from one another. Maybe he'll have an added gimmick or two but thats bells and whistles compared to a completely new, currently imaginary way of making Sonic move thats yet to be discovered.

Mario's movement mechanics since the very first game are so in-depth and complex while also being simple to understand that I consider it the ultimate example of nailing something insane and revolutionary on the first go. I don't want to understate or simplify this: Nintendo not only nailed 3D movement on a basic, easy to understand level but gave it layers upon layers of depth for you to peel away that it becomes a perfectly valid base to build a long running franchise on.

It gets confusing though when you consider that they added things and took away things from Mario's kit as they saw fit instead of holding onto this. It gets to the point that there are only a couple of maneuvers out of the dozens Mario has had that are in all of the 3D games. A lot of them are altered so drastically from the core 64 gameplay that they have their own techniques and nuances despite resembling it on the surface level. Mario Galaxy doesn't really play anything like Mario 64, despite sharing core moves like the triple jump and the wall jump. The physics under the core of the gameplay along with the level design philosophy were altered so drastically that's not only possible but surprisingly common for a person to like one of these games but not the other. Neither game really plays at all like 3D world which strips down most of the mechanics to focus on simple jumps with a higher focus on commitment. It sounds like a bone-headed idea but of course it was a huge success by compensating for what they took out with what they added: multiplayer and some of the tightest, most focused level design in the series. 

It makes it all the more baffling when Odyssey then came out and flew in the face of everything the last game did. 3D Mario could have found something to rest it's laurels on a long time ago but it just never seems to want to stop tinkering.

Sonic is similarly experimental some times, but you'll notice a throughline since maybe Sonic Adventure 2 about the core gameplay: It relies heavily on incredibly linear level design and many, many scripted segments to build it's levels around. The completely binary interactions like the homing attack, grinding and sliding under doors are also holdovers from that game with less and less nuance as time goes on. A lot of unnecessary additions and alternate gameplay styles kind of obscure this fact and give many the idea that Sonic changes too much, but in a lot of ways Sonic really hasn't changed enough. 

It's difficult for us to imagine a way for Sonic to be that hasn't been done before. We aren't game developers and a lot of us aren't creatives. It simply isn't our job. It's why I think game developers should avoid just catering to the whims of a fanbase that's inherently going to be narrow minded, though. I doubt giving Mario a water pump is an idea anyone in the public ever really had and it sounds pretty damn stupid on paper, but it's hard to say it was a mistake when you see the end result. 

I really would like to be sold on weird shit like Sonic turning into a werewolf with stretchy arms that slingshots himself around as much as I am sold by Mario's hat turning out to be a ghost that implants his spirit and will onto enemies. 
 

[Dr. Detective]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I mean it's a hard thing to narrow down because I'm basically talking about "all possible things a 3D platformer can do", and I don't really have the means to test specific ideas to be sure they're actually any good. But as far as some areas they can improve or explore:

For a character known for running loop-de-loops they've done a pretty awful job of using walls and ceilings outside of scripted sections. Some of that is just a matter of level design, some of it could be improved by bringing back the slope physics, but I also think there could be a lot of benefits to parkour-like abilities, like wall jumps and wall running. Let Sonic interact with the whole of the level and not just a thin strip of floor.

The homing attack has gotten dull. There should be more to interacting with objects than just tapping jump and automatically performing an action. I still support bounce-forward rather than bounce-up on hit, but I also feel there should be more changes than just that, I'm just not sure what.

Maybe some ways to store your speed for later use. Maybe have a brake button that fills a meter based on how fast you were going, and then you can use that to boost off in another direction or for a super high or super long jump (kind of the same feel as Mario's long jump).

Really though these are just some half-baked ideas I'm throwing out there, my point isn't that I've solved 3D Sonic but that there are way more possibilities out there than just "SA Sonic or Unleashed Day".

I'm probably way too jaded at this point to see it then. 

I think I may have reached a point to where unless I literally see it, I'm not going to believe it. Which is probably why I want them to just stick with something simple, like what SA Sonic was trying to do. Modify it for something that can work for 2019 onward but I really do feel it's best to... at least start with something as basic and as simple as that first before we try our hand at reinventing the wheel again. 

Because again, Sonic's problem for me hasn't really been the gameplay style they've used. Despite being tired of the boost, I don't blame it for the reason Sonic Forces was dull as dishwater. The thing they really need to focus more on is stuff like level design for whatever gameplay style they pick, the story, the music, the characters, the presentation, and the overall structure of their game. All the creative stuff surrounding Sonic needs a massive overhaul. If after all that's done, the games are somehow still dull and it's because the way Sonic moves isn't right, then I could see myself thinking we need to focus on that. 

It may sound odd to say that I think focusing on the way Sonic moves isn't the priority but it's kind of what I believe. So long as the way he moves isn't broken or hard to control, I'm fine with it being simple.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I think that's underselling Mario a bit. Mario hasn't needed to radically change the way he moves, but they came up with something pretty solid from the start, and they've spent 20+ years positively iterating on it. As of Odyssey he's got a variety of jumps for a variety of situations, cap bouncing and diving which can be chained together for more distance and height, and rolling for faster ground travel, and it all links together smoothly and organically.

I don't think that's underselling him at all. I brought Mario up specifically because I'm jealous of the fact that they found a way to make him work for 20+ years, modifying something that looks relatively basic and similar. I knew this would be the response to me saying that he just runs and jumps on stuff but that's really what he's doing. In comparison to the bullshit Sonic's done, it doesn't look like there's been much of a radical shift in how Mario moves. From observation, it looks like that in Mario, they add things and move things around. They tinker with him from game to game while still keeping him running on the same idea he started with in 3D. He's obviously not going to move and play the exact same way he did in the game before. Sonic didn't even do that from Adventure 1 to Adventure 2. However, both the Adventure games are still looked at as the "Adventure Formula" or whatever people are calling it now because they run on the same idea.

To me the Adventure gameplay has always just been him running when you push on the control stick in a 3D space. Like Mario except faster. If they gave him cap bouncing, diving, and rolling for ground travel, I'd still be able to say that the basic idea behind the gameplay is that he runs and jumps on stuff. Or homing attacks stuff. Whichever one it is. 

 

[Zaysho]

I don't really have a horse in this race, I just think they've spent the past twenty years experimenting with so many styles they might as well go back and mess around with a style they've done before. The only issue I have is Sonic Team circa 2019 is not the same Sonic Team circa 1998. Key figures are long gone and the development team seems to cycle through designers and other positions constantly; Forces, despite its advertising saying it was from the same team that developed Sonic Colors and Generations (really they just meant "Sonic Team" as an entity) was made up of mostly newer developers and it showed with clearly being lesser than Generations.

Could go either way, really. It's not inherently any worse than making Sonic a werewolf or "fuck it, make your own character". Not my holding my breath it will meet whatever minimum expectations I do have, I just want to see how they go about it.

[JingleBoy]

I really hope they don't remake Sonic Adventure and just make something entirely new instead.

The Crash/Spyro remakes served as a way to re-introduce the public to these franchises that had been long dormant. Sonic isn't in that situation and with the amount of tweaking and re-working that would go into making Sonic Adventure better, you may as well put that effort towards a spiritual successor.

In a franchise that has gotten a lot of flack for repeating old concepts and ideas, I just want to see something completely new.

Mario Odyssey over a Mario 64 remake is my philosophy and I'll take a "Sonic Adventure Odyssey" over an Adventure remake any day.

 

 

[Dr. Detective]

I think another reason I don't want them to jump into reinventing the wheel again is because Sonic Team sucks and is barely an entity nowadays. Whatever they come up with is going to suck. I at least have a bit more confidence in the idea that going back to something simple and basic like the Adventure thing might be an easier starting point. 

It's not even like I think doing something new couldn't work. There probably is a golden goose out there that Sonic hasn't tapped into yet... but I can't for the life of me agree that they need to focus on chasing it right now. 

I'm a hair shy of just saying they should give up but then there'd be no more Sonic. At the rate they're going, he may end up dying anyway though.

[Strickerx5]

For me, I want this... I want this a lot. SA is probably my second most wanted Sonic game to get re-released/ remade (and you all probably know what the first is). The sheer idea of seeing the Egg Carrier fully realized with a current day graphical engine gives me the chills. Though, the level as to how much I want it lies squarely on who would be making it. If it's an outside studio specifically tailored to remaking games then bring it on. If it's ST... ehhh.

I mean, that's just the thing with this franchise. What might seem like a good idea for just about every other dev team just about always has to be met with a large amount of salt when it comes to ST.

Remakes should be one of the safest bets you can make nowadays. SA seems like the prime candidate from this series to get that treatment. You keep the basic gameplay, setting, and story beats (plus music of course) but bring everything else up to the current era. Rework the levels a bit to fit each character more specifically, actually animated the cutscenes, make Amy faster and give her more move options for her hammer, make Big optional, ect. Honestly, we've had 20 years to analyse the living hell out of this game. Everyone and their dog knows what makes or breaks the experience. It's all on paper already. For most other studios, remaking this should be an easy A... But damn do I not trust current ST to do it. It's simply the sad state we're in atm. Maybe the current organizational shakeup going on will change something but we really won't know for a few years if that's even the case.

So... I guess one has to meet this with the mindset that whatever ST does do next, it's going to be a shot in the dark. Whether it be some brand new gameplay method, refining the boost formula, or whatever. Nothing is going to be a guaranteed hit with them. At least with SA they have more of a path to follow. If it succeeds then they would then have the tools and knowledge needed to apply the adventure formula to a brand new game. If it fails... well, what else is new.

Really, this whole thing boils down to what you, personally, really want going forward. The potential quality of that thing, sadly, isn't something one can really take full stock in when preferring it over something else at this point.

Do I want SA remade? Yes. Do I think it'll be good? Probably not. Do I think ST would have better results in tackling something completely new? Probably not.

[DabigRG]

This thread tho. Woof!

7 hours ago, Marco9966 said:

All Forces had to do is put Shadow or anyone else instead of Classic Sonic.

And have one origin for Infinite not 3.

Would have been a decent game.

Uh kinda don't want to say it, but this is a telltale example of what is NOT a good priority set.

Sonic is a game first, continuity second. One of those things doesn't exactly help, but its not what actually matters for the product as a whole.

[Scritch the Cat]

For all the brainstorming and debating here about how you'd make a remake work, it's important to check ourselves with the possibility that Iizuka hasn't done much of that.  I don't think he's a bad man but I can't say I approve of his ideas, and that is even before we get into the execution.

I think that at the very least, before they even think much about remaking the first Sonic Adventure, they need to demonstrate that they can still make a game that has multiple characters playable.  You'd think it wouldn't be too hard to make the main three playable in the tried and true way of making them variants on a formula, but they haven't tried since 06, and at least they need to prove they have the ability (and as the case may be, willingness to conmit the time needed) not to botch it like that again, before we get into a game built around it.

So before anything more SA-related happens, the first priority is to put Tails and Knuckles back in a playable role in the next 3D Sonic game, with their signature abilities and without being broken.  There doesn't have to be a separate story mode for each, but the characters have to be there as a proof of concept. 

 

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Tornado said:

 

In particular, that sold so well and even did pretty well with critics that even though it was obvious that it was terrible the people who pointed that out and had been pointing that out from the start were publicly shamed for being unreasonable. That includes here on this forum of course; but even people like Legitimate Journalist Jim Sterling wrote entire columns about how pathetic Sonic fans were for hating good Sonic games like Sonic 4 Episode 1.

 

Sonic unleashes is a bad example, because they changed the name of the game in other regions specifically for that purpose

While sonic 4 is a slightly better example , it is the cause of my point. They aren't gonna do that with sonic adventure. They saw the reception to that, it wasn't great. And later got a team together to make a real game.

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"They knew they were too incompetent to do it well (not that they bothered warning anyone who were buying their games of that fact before), but simply saying they are going to do it would itself be proof that they would do it well"

Whether anyone at Sonic Team/Sega gave much a shit hasn't seemed to have been much a hindrance of whether something could make... a lot of money for the series in that past.

durr tell me moar about money

Money is apart of it? And its more complicated than just now money? Its future money? And what is the future of the franchise and what you may be putting at risk is how businesses operate in regards to handling franchises.

Also its real weird you threaten to be ban people for being rude, then you mods do that. Weird.

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How well did that work out for the series post-Generations?

They didn't make good video games, so no one liked them

When they ( or the other team ) made the good video game based on the nostalgia, people bought it. You are trying to do this attitude sas thing, and its funny because the answers to these questions are pretty simple.

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Something that was done 20 years ago, was mostly abandoned the following game and was completely abandoned after that game, cannot be the "foundation" of a series that has continued releasing games since then.

That is unfortunately the case in this scenario. Sonic in 3d has flubbed up so many times , people go back to those games as the basis because a lot of people remember those games being good.

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It also dramatically overstates just how many people who buy Sonic games in 2018 have ever played Sonic Adventure for it to be their concept of what 3D Sonic is.

... No it doesn't? I didn't say that everyone who played sonic now played sonic adventure. Statistically most of the people playing the new crash game, probably is a child who never played crash before. But a lot of em probably heard about it though siblings or folks on the net, games held in high regard, played the games in the remake versions , they were good , left an impression. Same happened with mania, same happened with spyro.

And if you have this thing that a bunch of people hold up, and then you play it a remake of it a supposedly improved version and its still trash? That leaves an impression, this is in combination with  with the audience you are trying to draw in by using that nostalgia in the first place.

So yeah...

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Games like Generations and Unleashed and Colors are the ones that make up the modern landscape of the series where the typical person is probably starting from who may have checked out Lost World or Forces.

What does this have to do with anything?

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Someone a little older will have played Heroes and ShtH. Not games exclusive to failed consoles from three console generations ago that had lazy ports dumped on online stores eventually, regardless of the reverence that Adventure 1 and 2 still have.

Considering the GCN port of SA2 sold a fuck ton and where I myself first SA2, nah.

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A remake would have a built in audience of people who are interested who might not ordinarily be simply because of the name, but that sounds an awful lot to me like a reason to assume that such a game may very well only be approved by Sega for cynical reasons.

...Welcome to Capitalist entertainment?

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Or, to make a direct comparison: People who lined up around the block to buy Reignited and N-Sane weren't all people who had a Playstation in 1999 and any actual experience with the good Spyro or Crash games. It's why even mediocre-at-best games like Enter the Dragonfly, Wrath of Cortex and (yes) Sonic Heroes were big deal titles that sold very well and are remembered fondly by people for whom the PS2 or Gamecube was their first console despite how terrible they were in comparison to the games that came before them. You look at the threads for those games and there are people saying that Wrath and Enter should be remade so they were like the three games of each series that were actually good; and it's not borne out of anything other than "it was the first game in the series I played because I was stuck with Nintendo consoles."

Neat personal experience I guess. I don't know what this has to do with anything

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Strickerx5 said:

Do I want SA remade? Yes. Do I think it'll be good? Probably not. Do I think ST would have better results in tackling something completely new? Probably not.

Well, if I'm going to stop being a negative nelly for a second here, I can at least offer my thoughts on whether or not I want it remade. 

I would say that I do. Honestly, I'd like to see the three games that defined that era for me, remade. Sonic Adventure. Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic Heroes. 

Those three. The first Adventure and Heroes would probably need the most drastic overhaul in terms of what needs to be changed and modified. Heroes especially.

I'd probably keep Sonic, Tails, and Gamma relatively the same. Amy, I'd probably make a bit faster but other than that, she's only got 3 levels to work with so I can't imagine it'd be too huge an undertaking. Knuckles, if the hunting is something people want, I don't see too much harm in keeping so long as it feels like we're running through a stage to get to these emeralds. I'd probably just have the emerald shards be at each checkpoint he reaches though. Same for Big. I'd have him go through a level and at the end of it, he finds a pond where Froggy is. Maybe an animation of him fishing at the end of the level but that'd be it. Either that or you make the fishing minigame fun. 

Adventure 2 wouldn't need much changed. Perhaps more detail in the environments. I may take Tails out of the mech and just give him some arm blasters. Eggman would stay in his mech, of course, but probably have him move a bit faster and give him a flight ability to mirror Tails in that sense, since that seems to be the idea they had here. Knuckles and Rouge would need the biggest change. Either something similar to what Adventure did or just have them go through the stages like normal with checkpoints, like I suggested before. Wouldn't really change much with Sonic and Shadow aside from what needed to be modified to work for today. I'd also add in some story details to help things make a bit more sense and re-work the dialogue a tad. Perhaps tell the actors to deliver lines a bit differently than was originally said. I feel that goes without saying for the first Adventure too.

There's a scatter shot of ideas I have for Heroes, such as switching around when certain characters reach certain levels, changing up the environments a bit more so that we could visit Seaside Hill at night during someone's run through it and at sunset during someone else's run through it, with the level designed completely differently from one another to make it feel like you're not just playing through the same thing again. A more simplified way of using the characters could work too. Instead of pressing a button to switch between the characters, you just press the punch button and Knuckles punches stuff. You hold the trigger and Tails flies. And the rest is just Sonic running and homing attacking stuff. No need to have a level up system or anything too complicated for each character to have in their movesets. I'd also expand the scenes a lot more. Maybe have the Sonic and Amy confrontation make more sense. Have her at least try and tell Sonic that they're looking for Froggy and Chocola but he runs off because its Amy and she jumps to using a bit of force to get him to listen. Then the altercation ends when a bunch of Eggman robots interrupt and get them separated organically. There's a lot to tinker with there.

So that's the dream. An In-Sane Trilogy of Remakes for those three games. 

[Marcello]

Remaking Sonic Adventure could do well to get the current Sonic Team accustomed to making gameplay in the style of Sonic's Adventure gameplay for a brand new game in the future.

I love Sonic Adventure and would love to see it all prettied up. Though, I'd be sad to see some of the voice actors replaced. I still don't really care for Roger Craig Smith's Sonic and while Pollock is good, Bristow is still my favorite Eggman.

My biggest fear is that they'd change Sonic's gameplay to Boost style.

[Soniman]

I don't care what sonic team does at this point since I have no faith in any of their projects turning out good anymore but at least a SA1 remake would have me be mildly interested instead of trying and failing at another new venture 

[Kuzu]

5 hours ago, Tornado said:

People have nostalgia for stuff that was outright garbage. Its how you get something like Final Fight SNES on Virtual Console. It has no bearing on whether something actually has any timelessness in its design; which is a pretty important concession when you're discussing remaking something.

 

 

 

 

Put another way: What's in a remake? Do you go the warts and all style, brought up to the modern standards in presentation and controls? That's what Spyro and Crash got; and what Halo got. A loving 1:1 (pretty much) recreation of the game by people who really understand what made it great and that it's so beloved as is. There's a danger to that, because if the game has aged badly or has later entries that are much better, it will be noted that the chance was made to improve it but it deliberately wasn't done. This came up in reviews for Reignited, where some of the problems that were fixed in Ripto's Rage were still in the original game even though other problems in the original game were cleaned up (plus some hand wringing that the worst parts of the Spyro trilogy encompass the worst parts of the genre as a whole when they were new). It came up a lot in reviews of Yooka Laylee, even though that was just a very close spiritual successor to the Banjo games than an actual remake of one in particular.

Sonic Adventure, in no way, is even in the timezone of being good enough as a game where a developer could do this. No amount of "real fans" hand wringing changes that.

 

So that leaves the other way. You take the basics of the original game, implement everything the series has done since, and greatly expand everything about the original. Make it a modern game, but cover the same gameplay beats, story beats and conceptual ideas. This is what Ratchet and Clank did a few years ago, or Black Mesa, or even Resi 2 next month. This, of course, has it's own problems. Even moreso than the above kind. you need a developer who can competently make a well-received modern game. Then you need that developer to have a full understanding of what made the original so great. Sometimes you luck out and you have help from those people  (Twin Snakes) or you're just doing it yourself (Ratchet and Clank, REmake). Is Sonic Team any of these?

And even when you do have a developer that talented and that understanding of the original and what made it great, you can still "screw things up" enough that the remake gets a divisive enough reception that the original greatly outstrips it in popular perception of its quality (like Klonoa Wii and Twin Snakes) or even make a bunch of changes that go over badly to appeal to modern audiences with those of the original (Ratchet and Clank).

 

 

 

 

Now put Sonic Team in that context. Twenty years removed from the inspiration and steady hands guiding that project, as part of Sega's "who gives a shit how much it costs" design philosophy of the time.  Twenty years removed from the torch passing of Naka and Ohshima that the original Adventure was for the series. Even if Sonic Team hadn't spent the last forever proving they could fuck up a cup of coffee, it's a pretty tall order to try and recreate the circumstances that led to the creation of Sonic Adventure; a lighting strike of the new and old of the series history to that point that culminated in a game that isn't even that good; but at least was earnest. What causes this inherent hope that a Iizuka-led Sonic Team, under Sega's supervision, holds Adventure up in such high esteem that this would be the one that they would put 100% into making sure was done right? Not the games they made that were direct followups to this that they screwed up. Not the games that were billed as direct sequels to the games that have unanimous public appeal. Not the games in sacred cow franchises that Iizuka-led Sonic Team shit up as soon as Naka left Sega entirely. But this one game is going to turn things around and not just be a grab for attention that gets people back in (which worked wonders following Generations).

I can't really refute any of this, because yea, all of what you said is a huge risk especially given this series` history. Honestly, I'm speaking from a purely nostalgic point of view. Because I'll be perfectly honest, I don't give a fuck anymore. I really don't. This series has basically eradicated any and all goodwill I've had for it, to the point where I can't even bring myself muster up the emotion to lament it's state anymore. I just....can't; I'm older, got interested in better games with developers who understand their franchises far more than this ever will.

So at the very least, at least let me indulge in one of the few games that I'm still willing to say that I like and defined a part of this series for me. This series really cannot do any worse to me, I don't care what anyone says, so fuck it. If they took the risk and basically ST shit the bed like they always do, then that's that. I'll just go back to not giving a fuck like I did before. Is that selfish? You damn right. Do I care? Not really. 

 

So bring on the Adventure remake.

 

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

It's not just "it could be bad", but that remaking SA involves addressing a whole lot of issues that a new game wouldn't have to deal with. Tornado explained some of it better than I've managed.

They've still got 20 years and a dozen plus games to reference on what can be fixed and improved when they try to make a new game, if not as directly as if they were to remake a game. And again, if you want them to try to improve on SA, they can do that without directly remaking it, and avoid all the headaches that brings.

Like I said, I don't care. I don't care about those issues, I don't care about the potential negatives, I really do. not. care. What you and Tornado said is perfectly logical and sound, but I don't care. I'm looking at this from a purely emotional POV now, and my emotions are telling me that I want to relive the game that defined part of this series for me. Consequences be damned. If that makes me selfish and not caring about the potential future of the series, then so be it. This series barely has my attention as it is. If that doesn't make me a "true" fan for desperately clinging to a "dream" game that will never come to fruition, then fine. 

[Multikaris]

6 minutes ago, Marcello said:

Remaking Sonic Adventure could do well to get the current Sonic Team accustomed to making gameplay in the style of Sonic's Adventure gameplay for a brand new game in the future.

I love Sonic Adventure and would love to see it all prettied up. Though, I'd be sad to see some of the voice actors replaced. I still don't really care for Roger Craig Smith's Sonic and while Pollock is good, Bristow is still my favorite Eggman.

My biggest fear is that they'd change Sonic's gameplay to Boost style.

Yeah, my biggest fear is that the game will not merely be remade but totally altered, changed into their newer style. With Boost gameplay and all that. Not to mention simpler textures that make the game feel less immersive, like it has less integrity.

[Kuzu]

It honestly depends on what people value more.

Do you want a faithful recreation with all of the good and bad, but with the nostalgic value involved.

Or do you want them to update the game to modern standards and potentially address its many issues but basically get everything that made it memorable removed.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It honestly depends on what people value more.

Do you want a faithful recreation with all of the good and bad, but with the nostalgic value involved.

Or do you want them to update the game to modern standards and potentially address its many issues but basically get everything that made it memorable removed.

Just do what Sonic Riders and rerecord most of the story with the new voices while keeping some of the gameplay and/or more infamous reads in tact.

[Kuzu]

I notice so many people are against the idea....if SONIC TEAM (or whoever is left) does it but....what if it was just oursourced?

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I notice so many people are against the idea....if SONIC TEAM (or whoever is left) does it but....what if it was just oursourced?

I wonder why SEGA don't do that with a number of their properties anyway.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

If Sonic Adventure gets remade, I think it’s a given to expect Amy and Big to be drastically overhauled and/or completely optional. To do otherwise would be review-suicide. 

[Zaysho]

29 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I wonder why SEGA don't do that with a number of their properties anyway.

They started doing that with older properties they just have sitting around. LizardCube, the company that remade Wonder Boy: the Dragon's Trap (which Sega owns the trademark, but not the game itself iirc--Wonder Boy is really confusing), was just handed the reins to Streets of Rage and Forever Entertainment is handling remakes of Panzer Dragoon (though I cannot speak for how well that will pan out, since I'm not familiar with PD or this developer). I could probably see this becoming a trend for them, and it may not be a bad idea to find a team that could be up to the task with Sonic Team in a overseeing role similar to what they were doing with the GBA/DS games or recently Mania.

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

They started doing that with older properties they just have sitting around. LizardCube, the company that remade Wonder Boy: the Dragon's Trap (which Sega owns the trademark, but not the game itself iirc--Wonder Boy is really confusing), was just handed the reins to Streets of Rage and Forever Entertainment is handling remakes of Panzer Dragoon (though I cannot speak for how well that will pan out, since I'm not familiar with PD or this developer). I could probably see this becoming a trend for them, and it may not be a bad idea to find a team that could be up to the task with Sonic Team in a overseeing role similar to what they were doing with the GBA/DS games or recently Mania.

Ah! So they are doing the labor cursory and business-wise thing already.

[Scritch the Cat]

5 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Do I want SA remade? Yes. Do I think it'll be good? Probably not. Do I think ST would have better results in tackling something completely new? Probably not.

Given the current state of Sonic Team, which entails arguably not even existing anymore, I disagree.  Lest we forget, Sonic 2006 was conceptually a return to the form of Sonic Adventure 1, and all other factors being constants, it should have worked at least as well.  But half of the team got stripped away to make Sonic and the Secret Rings for Wii, Yuji Naka left Sonic Team mid-way in, and they rushed the game out as a 15th anniversary present.  That Sonic Team has never had a wipeout that bad again (I don't count SBROL since it was outsourced) isn't so much necessarily proof that they've improved as what is to be expected when they've downsized the scope of subsequent games to fit their downsized development capacity.  Until further notice, I am not going to believe they can make Sonic Adventure anymore, and after getting suckered into thinking they could in 2006, the "further notice" I feel we're owed is a tech demo that they let people play for free, followed by subsequent open beta tests.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

If SEGA announced a remake of Sonic Adventure, I would be hyped as hell, with the logical part of my brain just as concerned for its outcome as I already am for whatever next 3D game they make. The prospect is certainly exciting, given that there’s both a solid foundation and room to improve. Yeah, it could suck, but so could any next game. 

If all the right planets lined up, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 would get awesome remakes. There is so much room to improve, cutting out stuff that doesn’t work, tweaking stuff that sort of works, and embellishing stuff that already works. Think of the cutscenes that would benefit so enormously from better presentation and writing. Shadow’s confrontations with Sonic. The annihilation of the Echidna tribe. Gamma’s sacrifice. Eggman’s badass fake emerald bait-and-switch. When you see concepts like this, it’s hard not to see the potential: