The Making of: Sonic Adventure (New Iizuka Interview)

[Dejimon11]

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It honestly depends on what people value more.

Do you want a faithful recreation with all of the good and bad, but with the nostalgic value involved.

Or do you want them to update the game to modern standards and potentially address its many issues but basically get everything that made it memorable removed.

Define modern standards. Sorry but you gotta remember what franchise we're talking about and that could lead into a monkey paw situation. 

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

I fail to see hope in any of the “Sonic Adventure Remake” news. Albeit this is a good interview, some people seem to be going a little too far with this. Sonic Adventure was remade and it was called “Sonic The Hedgehog” for the PS3 and Xbox 360. It was semi-redone in a more spiritual way with Sonic World Adventure(Sonic Unleashed). 

It’s time to move forward. 

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Jar Jar Analysis 1138 said:

I fail to see hope in any of the “Sonic Adventure Remake” news. Albeit this is a good interview, some people seem to be going a little too far with this. Sonic Adventure was remade and it was called “Sonic The Hedgehog” for the PS3 and Xbox 360. It was semi-redone in a more spiritual way with Sonic World Adventure(Sonic Unleashed). 

It’s time to move forward. 

You know exactly what everyone means, stop being pedantic. 06 is as much a spiritual successor as Unleashed was, but it's not a remake of the original game itself. 

[SaturnWolf]

As much as I would love to see this happen, or even just a return to the Adventure formula with now 20+ years of hindsight in what works and what doesn't...I don't trust anyone at Sonic Team to get the small details right, let alone the bigger picture. I'd need a lot more convincing before I'd throw money at it.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

I was going to immediately go into why I think this would ultimately be a bad idea for the franchise but you know what? I have to say, I really do understand this from an adventure fan's point of view. I get the sentiment of a lot of people's frustrations with the franchise since 1998. People want 3D sonic to be 3D sonic and SA is recognized as the game in the franchise that made the first attempt to do that.

I'll even admit myself that I am pretty exhausted as a fan. I want 3D sonic to be done proper justice but I currently have no idea whether or not Sonic Team is even interested in what I think would truly resurrect Sonic. On top of that, Iizuks is the only person around that has any idea of what went into making Adventure. And though I have a lot of issues with both adventure games as a foundation for 3D Sonic, at the very least SA1 is still one of my favorite sonic titles ever and I would feel a lot of happy nostalgia to see that game remade. 

 

...however I feel like I should again point out what has already been said by some people even in this very thread: 3D sonic does not have to be like sonic adventure. Adventure does not have a monopoly on the 3D concept. A 3D sonic game can be thought of that is truly a 3D platformer and excellent in every way, and have little to do with the adventure games. They do not need to define 3D sonic. A lot of people think they do because they are (sadly) the best example of a true 3D platformer in this franchise to date. That however is a commentary on the flawed approach and struggles of sonic team! Even if you boil down the great ideas of those games (they were there to be sure) into some kind of foundation....you can probably get a lot further by just starting with a clean slate instead of bringing the fundamental problems that exist within some of those great ideas along. And of course this doesnt even get into dividing the gameplay up into multiple alternative styles, which leaves lots of obvious potential for problematic development constraints.

 

If a SA remake does happen, undoubtedly I will be happy. It's my 3rd favorite game all time in this franchise and leading up to that period in 1998 the game I experienced the most hype for ever. But I do honestly think that even now, Sonic can do much better than this in 3D. Much much better actually. Sonic Team needs the right vision and the right amount of support from SEGA, that's it. The tech exists, the shades of an excellent 3D sonic concept exists today, in aspects of other games and within the franchise's own history. Someone just needs to bring it all together. A huge reason why it hasnt come together up until now is because Sonic Team proper has (according to many accounts) been overworked and burned out with the franchise until very recently...since they basically dont exist anymore except for the title itself. With the recent revelation that SoA may actually be assuming primary control over sonic and some new blood (Whitehead and co) injected into the team, I do think we can see a great 3D game come out sometime in the not too distant future. The ingredients are there, is my point. We do not at all need to rely on the adventure concept and I think it's probably be for the best if we didnt.

[SBR2]

2 hours ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

When you see concepts like this, it’s hard not to see the potential:

 

Yeah that's honestly really awesome. Hopefully if they do make a remake they do big scenes like this in FMV Marza animation Cutscenes instead of in-game ones. 

[Zeer]

Personally, I'm not really liking the idea of a remake. It mostly comes down to me being tired of the franchise's constant retreading and nostalgia pandering and my lack of faith in Sonic Team to really do it justice regardless of what they try to do with it (recreate it near exactly or with new gameplay/direction). I also think them fucking it up would have a major effect on the fanbase more than a regular new disappointing Sonic game.

[Milo]

I don't know how almost anybody could be excited about a Sonic Adventure remake from the current era of Sonic Team, given that they're repeatedly shown emulating past works isn't their strongest suit—and that's assuming they actually care to begin with (hi Genesis Sonic).

Moreover, we just got in Forces their attempt to return to the tone, narrative, and general presentation of that era of games. Only for the narrative turning out to be total fluff, the tone being undermined by goofy stuff like the Custom Hero and the Pontac/Warren writing of the recent lighter games still in effect, and the overall presentation being just sloppy and unrefined. It’s way too easy to imagine an actual recreation of Sonic Adventure turning out the same way, bearing the same mistakes.

To say nothing that they can't even be assed to give the original game a decent port as it is. The last re-release of Adventure on Steam is what, the fifth generation inbred backwater port of a port they've done so far? Remember when it took mods by the fans to get basic stuff like proper resolution output fixed before Sega did it themselves?

[SBR2]

I've watched the Cutscenes of Forces and I got to be honest it never felt that different from the style of writing people usually ask for.

It's just as ridiculous as any other attempt to do a """"Dark"""" story in the Sonic universe. 

[DabigRG]

13 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I've watched the Cutscenes of Forces and I got to be honest it never felt that different from the style of writing people usually ask for.

It's just as ridiculous as any other attempt to do a """"Dark"""" story in the Sonic universe. 

It also has the current voice cast and the knowledge of the Colors writers' involvement clouding it's reception as well.

[Dr. Detective]

Regardless of what your imagination wants out of an Adventure remake, does anyone here believe the Sonic Team of today could pull it off? It doesn't seem like anyone here thinks so. Certainly not me. 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Regardless of what your imagination wants out of an Adventure remake, does anyone here believe the Sonic Team of today could pull it off? It doesn't seem like anyone here thinks so. Certainly not me. 

Sonic Team clearly isn’t even a solid entity, though. I certainly wouldn’t be excited about the Forces team working on a remake, but who knows what things look like over there now? It’s a total crapshoot. 

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, SBR2 said:

I've watched the Cutscenes of Forces and I got to be honest it never felt that different from the style of writing people usually ask for.

It's just as ridiculous as any other attempt to do a """"Dark"""" story in the Sonic universe. 

Besides some superficial bad attempts to make the story grittier by the English dub, the tone of Forces writing isn't actually all that bad, it's just ultimately it's kinda of bland, and it's to flavour what is mostly a half baked story.

If anything I could argue that it would be an improvement over Sonic Adventure 1, which is also a mix of cheesiness and flat exposition, but exaggerated in that manner, just there is some sort of substance to the story in that example that makes some of it worth checking out.

 

Concerning an SA1 remake, if it is even being considered in the long run, I wouldn't be against it, but you have to ask how it would turn out. The thing about the Crash and Spyro remakes is that, while not every gimmick in those games is solid in concept either, the engine and layout is still pretty developed enough that they can get away with just replicating the game as it is but with mild tune ups. SA1, while not a BAD game is definitely not fully baked, and it's only more obvious since it's already had a port.

Sonic 2 for example is a game that didn't quite get everything met in deadlines, but the difference there is that they got the engine solid enough besides minor glitches and while some levels and gimmicks didn't make the cut, what IS there is still finished and polished enough that you couldn't really tell until someone informed you. Thus Taxman's team could get away with SEGA's restrictions, refining the engine slightly but the old one being competent enough that they were able to keep it thoroughly authentic, and adding a few bug fixes and extras that don't really alter the main course of the game unless you willingly play around with them. They did convince SEGA to budge for the omitted Hidden Palace and while that is a great extra, it wasn't vital to make it a solid game and again it was added in the form of a superfluous secret that doesn't alter the main game.

Sonic Adventure is infamous for being a game you had to figure how NOT to break the mechanics, and what did make it into the final product sometimes feels much more half baked. They obvious had a good idea plotted out but hadn't quite figured how to program it all to flow together professionally and while I don't begrudge the extra character stories, a lot of them aren't really executed well enough in level design and intuitiveness to excel past glorified mini games (Tails' levels in particular are just small sections of Sonic's levels and rather than having Tails' flying discover developed short cuts and treats, they just scattered loads of boost rings everywhere, allowing you to break the game, while Big's levels are consistently just a couple steps towards one same small fishing pool since his moveset doesn't allow for much platforming to lead up to it, Gamma's levels also tend to be noticeably small, almost like they run out of time to finish them).

To have SA1 reach it's full potential you'd have to enhance a lot of parts in a noticeable way, which according to Taxman's team, SEGA isn't too big on in regards to remakes. I don't mean any of the recurring more drastic suggestions like omitting Big or making everyone do fast linear levels like Sonic, even with my occasional grievances I don't think completely reimagining the game's base structure is necessary, but there's a lot of patching up needed.

[Plasme]

I find the sneering about Sonic Team unnecessary. We get it, Sonic Team sucks. You aren't winning originality points. You don't get a cookie. We ALL know current Sonic Team is incompetent.

Making a big point about their lack of ability seems pretty redundant to me.

[Scar]

On 12/31/2018 at 12:15 AM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Just the fact that they're considering the idea gives me hope; especially people were convinced "It'll never happen".

Given the success of the Crash and Spyro remasters, and Super Mario Odyssey returning to 64 style exploration and platforming, there's really no reason not to do it.  

I mean at this point, it wouldn't be a remaster as Crash and Spyro and Ratchet were, as opposed to a complete and total reconstruction of the game at an atomic level. There is so much wrong with SA1. It'd have to basically take the shell of it, and totally rebuild it from scratch.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

To have SA1 reach it's full potential you'd have to enhance a lot of parts in a noticeable way, which according to Taxman's team, SEGA isn't too big on in regards to remakes. I don't mean any of the recurring more drastic suggestions like omitting Big or making everyone do fast linear levels like Sonic, even with my occasional grievances I don't think completely reimagining the game's base structure is necessary, but there's a lot of patching up needed.

Removing Big might be necessary if they can’t get him right. Ideally they’d outsource his gameplay to a studio that has experience making underwater camera perspective fishing games. Even then, his story should be optional if they want to escape a critical evisceration. Big’s gameplay could be excellent and it wouldn’t matter, because people don’t want to be forced to go fishing in a Sonic game. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

1 minute ago, Scar said:

I mean at this point, it wouldn't be a remaster as Crash and Spyro and Ratchet were, as opposed to a complete and total reconstruction of the game at an atomic level. There is so much wrong with SA1. It'd have to basically take the shell of it, and totally rebuild it from scratch.

This is kind of the point to me. Crash and spyro were solid enough games already, that simply doing graphical upgrades was enough to modernize the games. There was no work that needed go be done to fix the formula of those games, they were fundamentally sound.

Sonic adventure was not a fundamentally sound game at all, even just considering the Sonic levels. You'd have to figure out how to execute what SA1 didnt actually, and that's even before you get to talking about what to do with the alternative gameplay. Essentially, its not just a make up job like the former two.

[E-122-Psi]

50 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Removing Big might be necessary if they can’t get him right. Ideally they’d outsource his gameplay to a studio that has experience making underwater camera perspective fishing games. Even then, his story should be optional if they want to escape a critical evisceration. Big’s gameplay could be excellent and it wouldn’t matter, because people don’t want to be forced to go fishing in a Sonic game. 

I don't think Big in concept has to go. It's not like glitch or mechanic issue or unfinished element, his gameplay concept was very deliberate, just how it was set about was unrefined. It's like some of the vehicles in the Crash trilogy, they weren't always well received ideas, but they still intentional enough parts of the game that the remakes kept them in, though with subtle attempts to tweak them to be more enjoyable here and there.

Either way taking him out completely would be like a deduction from the game, which regardless to whether the majority think he's bad or not, I don't agree is a good strategy. It's cutting out levels and gimmicks of the game.

Let's say they fixed up the fishing mechanics so they were tighter and more accurate and also made the fish and Froggy were more responsive, making the whole thing less time consuming. That would be a subtle refinement like the aforementioned Crash vehicles.

Then we get to more drastic issues however, since even without the fishing gimmick in mind Big's gameplay is incredibly barebones and fixing that would require greater retools (some levels have remains that hint to longer paths and puzzles before reaching the fishing area in early development however) and as a platform character he's the most unwieldy and basic, which makes roaming around as him in the Adventure Fields rather tedious. This could be partially fixed by adding optional extra abilities I guess (which is very possible given SA1's ability upgrades) giving him something like his Heroes umbrella or body slam or making his rod attack more powerful.

 

Let's take the Ice Cap level for example. Big's stage is oddly large and explorable, but the place you have to perform is a small area at the start. It tasks you use a boulder to reach it, but the boulder is also right in front of you, and ironically you don't even need it, just jump on the ice and it's unlocked. Let's say they took out that loophole and put the boulder further into the level adding a bit of item collecting and platforming (most of the level is conveniently vertical as well, abolishing backtracking). That's cool, but with Big's gameplay it's not that fun, so you'd need to make him slightly more agile and likely give him a better offence against enemies. You have the basics for a decent exploration > mini game challenge approach there, but all that also requires noticably retooling how the original character and level was structured. That's not even considering he only has FOUR levels.

[Dejimon11]

2 hours ago, SBR2 said:

I've watched the Cutscenes of Forces and I got to be honest it never felt that different from the style of writing people usually ask for.

It's just as ridiculous as any other attempt to do a """"Dark"""" story in the Sonic universe. 

So here's my stance on the matter. I've said it multiple times but the previous Sonic stories in the Adventure titles had a sense of sincerity to them which made them charming. Like don't get me wrong the plots were a mess especially when you tried to put everything in order in SA1's case but they made folks invested in what's going on.

With Forces it's like they had multiple ideas on where they wanted to take the story and instead of trying to focus on one idea it seems like they jumbled them all together and resulting in a half hearted plot. Didn't help that there were somethings that we're unresolved like what happened to Infinite and Eggman or didn't bother to explain stuff. Buuuut that's just me

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I gotta say, I’m already sick of seeing the clickbait videos and articles about “ZOMG SONIC ADVENTURE REMAKE CONFIRMED?!?” This doesn’t confirm anything about Iizuka’s plans. He just recognizes that SA is a janky game and that makes him want to redo it. Judging by the bizarre comments he’s made in past interviews, I seriously doubt he made that statement in any calculated way. Think of how many things you’ve done that you wish you could redo. Now think of the ones you CAN redo. Would you actually do it, or would you move forward with something else? This is the question I wish more people would ask themselves when reading this interview. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Thinking about it, I'd be interested in seeing a remake for a couple of reasons. 

1. With more power to a system, we might be able to properly see what the classic events look like in the modern continuity. Sonic Adventure tried to recreate these, but you can tell they were strained for resources when Sonic and Tails meeting was made to happen in the Angel Island jungle. 

2. Seeing what way they insert the Chaotix (or at least Vector) in there. I'm not saying they'd be given a role in the story, but I think if Iizuka had the chance, he would drop a cameo of them in there ala Cream in DX (although she was added as advertising). Iizuka really seems to love him some crocodile. 

[Scritch the Cat]

8 hours ago, Zeer said:

Personally, I'm not really liking the idea of a remake. It mostly comes down to me being tired of the franchise's constant retreading and nostalgia pandering and my lack of faith in Sonic Team to really do it justice regardless of what they try to do with it (recreate it near exactly or with new gameplay/direction). I also think them fucking it up would have a major effect on the fanbase more than a regular new disappointing Sonic game.

Fucking up the first Sonic Adventure in a remake that was intended to fix its flaws would unleash a new storm of critics declaring the Adventure formula is rotten to the core.  I don't trust Sonic Team not to fuck it up, but the thing is, I disagree with that conclusion since the jump in at least the Sonic gameplay quality in SA2 was massive.  Moving along...

7 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Regardless of what your imagination wants out of an Adventure remake, does anyone here believe the Sonic Team of today could pull it off? It doesn't seem like anyone here thinks so. Certainly not me. 

Here's the thing: For as much as people argue Sonic Team has gone downhill since the end of Sega consoles, I've played enough Sonic games made since that I can see they've improved at some things.  And by "some", I mean Sonic being better controlled, even when going fast, the homing attack being more precise, and the levels being much bigger.  As sad as it is to admit, even Shadow the Hedgehog did a lot of the mechanics better.  Therefor...

6 hours ago, Plasme said:

I find the sneering about Sonic Team unnecessary. We get it, Sonic Team sucks. You aren't winning originality points. You don't get a cookie. We ALL know current Sonic Team is incompetent.

Making a big point about their lack of ability seems pretty redundant to me.

There's bit more nuance than this statement suggests.  Sonic Team doesn't suck at absolutely everything they do.  No game they directly developed since has been the broken mess that Sonic 2006 was; even if on the conceptual level they've been hit-and-miss.  They've managed to make a workable sort of gameplay that seems to fit Sonic himself, because it focuses on speed and not a whole lot else.  At least, not a whole lot else that is really demanding of a developer.  Then there are the cut-scenes--hugely improved from where they were in the first Sonic Adventure. 

But here's the thing: Seeking a new sort of success and even generally achieving it doesn't mean that Sonic Team can achieve the old sorts.  This has been apparent even when it comes to 2D Sonic; their post-1990s tries at recreating what they used to do so well have ranged from massive failures (Sonic The Hedgehog Genesis) to serviceable but still not there (The Classic Sonic sections in Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces).  Now ask yourself, can this sort of company still add in (at least) two more characters that play well, and a 3D hub world?  Not even, can they do it as well as they did in Sonic Adventure; can they do it better?  Maybe, but the costs of failure are just way too large to bet on that maybe.  Consider the following; if their remake failed:

1) It would wreck Sonic Team's reputation.  Again, they do well enough making less ambitious games that eventually, they will manage to cease being a laughing stock, but not if they also make another bomb.

2) It would wreck Sonic Adventure's reputation and thus tar, by association, any game considered to be in the "Adventure formula".  For all the talk about how herculean a task it would be to fix the first game for modern standards, the sequel would need a lot less.  With the exception of making the emerald radar able to detect all three immediately, in any order, I truly think Sonic Adventure 2 got a lot more right.  It's usually the game many fans look back on when they shed a tear for what has been lost since 2006 broke the series.  However, it's been so long since that game was relevant to anyone else, that a remake of the first SA that doesn't make it presentable enough would just tar the other games in that ilk by association.  We would have a renewed backlash against Sonic's supporting cast being playable despite many other games showing that they can work...at least some of them.  We can't afford that right now.  Sonic Mania Plus has given the world perfect, present proof that other playable characters can work, and I don't want anything that could present a counterpoint, given that last time it caused even Tails and Knuckles to be kicked out.  Before they even think about making another mainline Sonic game with six playable characters or how to make Big the Cat fun, they need to make Tails and Knuckles playable in whatever their next "Modern Sonic" game is, and make them work.  If another multi-character game bombs, for whatever reason, I don't trust Sonic Team not to throw Tails and Knuckles out with the bathwater again. 

3) It would wreck Iizuka's reputation.  I know that among Sonic fans, he doesn't exactly have a high one to start, but if a game he announced to the whole world that he wanted to remake ended up bombing, he'd likely be the one to take the fall.

[Pawn]

I've said it before, but I don't think blaming Sonic Team makes much sense, since they're whoever SEGA has thrown together at the time. They've changed hands so many times by this point and the 3D games' spotty record has remained intact. SEGA is the common factor here and unless they're really committed to making a great Sonic game, it's just not going to happen. It's not hard to imagine that the conditions under which the developers work are likely pretty poor.

As far as Sonic Adventure goes, I'd much rather have a spiritual successor at this point. Six characters and separate gameplay styles are just too much. Big at the vert least would have to be relegated to a mini-game or side character at best. Just take inspiration from the story and overall scope of the game and try to capture how the the good parts of the game felt rather than replicate the reality.

I'd honestly just be happy to have another game with an SA-styled soundtrack after hearing that amazing Sand Road remix by Tee Lopes and Jun.

[Maxtiis]

Since it's been made perfectly clear that Sonic Team sucks/is incompetent/ doesn't know how to make Sonic games anymore, who should be the studio that would take the reigns of a Sonic Adventure remake? Outsourcing is a very risky endeavor as to whether the game will be good or not, especially if the developers chosen for it aren't experienced enough with working on a 3-D game engine, something that's very likely given the quantity of 2-D games that are churned out by indie devs just due to the inherent simplicity the lack of a 3rd dimensions grants.

Off the top of my head, the only studio that comes to mind is Grezzo, the guys behind the remakes of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. They delivered products that overall made the fans happy by sticking to what made the originals beloved by fans, but streamlined enough to please newer audiences. Though I do have my issues with some changes they made to Majora's Mask, namely the bosses.

And it seems other game news outlets are picking up on the story, not that it'll get enough people talking for it to actually happen, but still it's neat to see.

https://nichegamer.com/2018/12/31/sonic-team-boss-really-wants-to-remake-sonic-adventure/

[Bowbowis]

To fish, or not to fish? That is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler for the devs to suffer

The stinging anger of outraged critics,

Or to take action against a sea of fans

And by opposing lose them. 

. . .

Honestly? It's for that very reason I think it would be smarter for SEGA to remake SA2 before attempting an SA1 remake. SA2 sidesteps a lot of the issues with SA1, it drops the most controversial gameplay styles from SA1 (Fishing); it refines the remaining styles shooting and hunting feel less like an afterthought and more like coequal aspects of the overall experience; the level design is more focused, with each stage being tailored to a single style instead of trying to make three different styles work with the same layout; and the game just generally feels less like its being held together with band-aids chewing gum. Even looking at the complaints SA2 gets its mostly stuff with easy fixes like spreading the controls out over multiple buttons, tightening up the mech controls, or unlocking the Emerald radar, nothing which would fundamentally change the game like removing fishing from SA1 would. Even the bigger stuff can be worked around without riling up purists by changing what's already there. The levels are too linear? Add in some new paths in addition to the original route. The back story isn't entirely clear? Maybe destroying the gold beetles in each level unlocks some in-universe documents from G.U.N.'s archives which help clarify some of the murkier elements of the game's story.

If SEGA were able to earn back some goodwill towards the Adventure games, and remind everyone that SA1 paved the way for a much more polished experience in SA2 ,I think people might be more willing to forgive a SA1 remake for some of the rougher edges carried over from the original game.