The Making of: Sonic Adventure (New Iizuka Interview)

[DabigRG]

11 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

 

With Forces it's like they had multiple ideas on where they wanted to take the story and instead of trying to focus on one idea it seems like they jumbled them all together and resulting in a half hearted plot. Didn't help that there were somethings that we're unresolved like what happened to Infinite and Eggman or didn't bother to explain stuff. Buuuut that's just me

Eggman not turning up after being defeated isn't really a problem; it's been done a number of times before.

Plus, it probably would've ruined the general feel the ending was going for. 

 

 

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

Thinking about it, I'd be interested in seeing a remake for a couple of reasons. 

1. With more power to a system, we might be able to properly see what the classic events look like in the modern continuity. Sonic Adventure tried to recreate these, but you can tell they were strained for resources when Sonic and Tails meeting was made to happen in the Angel Island jungle. 

 

Kinda makes me wonder why they didnr just reuse stuff from the Saturn. 

5 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

 

2. Seeing what way they insert the Chaotix (or at least Vector) in there. I'm not saying they'd be given a role in the story, but I think if Iizuka had the chance, he would drop a cameo of them in there ala Cream in DX (although she was added as advertising). Iizuka really seems to love him some crocodile. 

:?: 

Advertising?

[Your Vest Friend]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Advertising?

Around the time Sonic Adventure DX was released, Sonic Advance 2 was the newest game, and Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle and (especially) Sonic X were around the corner. Cream was an important thing in all of those, so what better way to plug them than a Cream cameo, even if it was entirely inconsequential. 

By contrast, unless SEGA go off their meds and actually greenlight a Chaotix game, a Chaotix cameo in a hypothetical remake would not serve the same purpose. 

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Around the time Sonic Adventure DX was released, Sonic Advance 2 was the newest game, and Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle and (especially) Sonic X were around the corner. Cream was an important thing in all of those, so what better way to plug them than a Cream cameo, even if it was entirely inconsequential. 

Oh, okay that makes sense. There was a Sonic X ad in one of the missions, after all.

There is the implication that she drops the ice key, though. 

20 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

 

By contrast, unless SEGA go off their meds and actually greenlight a Chaotix game, a Chaotix cameo in a hypothetical remake would not serve the same purpose. 

True, true.

Idk, I kinda hope they do get into a minor trend of spinoffs for the time being.

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Sonic Adventure remake or a new Adventure styled game would be interersting.

[Dr. Detective]

16 hours ago, Pawn said:

I've said it before, but I don't think blaming Sonic Team makes much sense, since they're whoever SEGA has thrown together at the time. They've changed hands so many times by this point and the 3D games' spotty record has remained intact. SEGA is the common factor here and unless they're really committed to making a great Sonic game, it's just not going to happen. It's not hard to imagine that the conditions under which the developers work are likely pretty poor.

At this point, I feel like it's okay if "Sonic Team" is just referred to as whatever random assortment of people are in charge of making whatever the next game is rather than a consistent solid entity. It's a little much to expect people to just stop referring to them by name though. I feel you can still use the name without needing to be constantly reminded that they're just a select group of people at any given time. 

For now, Sonic Team is more of a concept. 

Sonic Team: 

[Pawn]

6 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

At this point, I feel like it's okay if "Sonic Team" is just referred to as whatever random assortment of people are in charge of making whatever the next game is rather than a consistent solid entity. It's a little much to expect people to just stop referring to them by name though. I feel you can still use the name without needing to be constantly reminded that they're just a select group of people at any given time.

My point is that it just obscures the real problems associated with the series, though, when the evidence points to mismanagement from SEGA. Many dumb decisions were either made by them or could have been nipped in the bud by them.

[Kuzu]

Yea, Sega are generally the ones who pull the strings. They provide the budget and hand out the deadlines and I believe they can mandate who works on any given game.

 

So back to the topic. A change I'd like for SA1 is making stages for the other characters. Levels that actually take advantage of their abilities similar to what SA2 did.

[Wraith]

24 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So back to the topic. A change I'd like for SA1 is making stages for the other characters. Levels that actually take advantage of their abilities similar to what SA2 did.

I feel like the levels in SA1 are already designed to do this, or would be there with a couple of tweaks. 

It'd be neat if they were to experiment a bit and turn say, Sand Hill into an actual level that focused on Tails's abilities.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

52 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yea, Sega are generally the ones who pull the strings. They provide the budget and hand out the deadlines and I believe they can mandate who works on any given game.

 

So back to the topic. A change I'd like for SA1 is making stages for the other characters. Levels that actually take advantage of their abilities similar to what SA2 did.

 

23 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I feel like the levels in SA1 are already designed to do this, or would be there with a couple of tweaks. 

It'd be neat if they were to experiment a bit and turn say, Sand Hill into an actual level that focused on Tails's abilities.

Personally, I thought this was done well in SA1. Levels were designed in ways that you could run through them with one character, and then run through the same area in a totally different way with another character. For example, Speed Highway's final section is designed in a way to allow Sonic to run up slopes and such to finish the stage while it's also designed with more hidden nooks and such, as well as more vertical areas for Knuckles to glide, climb, and explore.

Tails is the same. Sonic's stages aren't largely altered for him, but the way they work shortcuts in for him to use is done relatively decently. Maybe expand on the idea, but for me personally, I felt they'd done it well already. Even Sonic's stages had pools of water which would come back later for Big to use. I thought that detail in particular was kind of neat.

If you're gonna improve anything, I feel like what should be improved is the characters' abilities themselves. Amy's levels for example - they're fine IMO. Perfectly fine. In fact, I like how they're kind of built more as puzzle levels compared to Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. But I feel like you could build her speed up a bit, maybe change level layout to work speed more into her, etc. I think a good thing would be making her hammer jump more of an important ability in the puzzles, and just in general speeding her gameplay up in general. 

Big I feel is the same. I don't think fishing itself is the problem per say. It's a bit odd for Sonic, but I think it could work. The problem is not only is Big painfully slow, but the fishing controls - in no small words - absolutely suck. If they found a way to make Big's levels a little easier to move around, and improved the controls, it would at least be pretty tolerable I think.

Another thing I think would be pretty cool is if they allowed all of the characters access to all of the levels. Like how there was glitches that allowed Tails, Knuckles and Amy into Sonic's stages, and at least for Tails and Knuckles, they worked relatively well. I think it could be neat if like Big had small sections in each stage for fishing, or Gamma could run through a portion of each stage in a shooting gallery, while Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy all get to run through the proper speed-based versions of the stage. In my opinion, this was always one of the core problems of SA1, where only Sonic, Tails and Knuckles had really any care in their stage sets, all of their stories being a few hours a go, while Amy, Big, and Gamma could more or less be completed in about an hour or so.

 

[E-122-Psi]

My general problem with Tails' levels is that they are nearly all Sonic's levels just smaller, and Tails' mechanics actually simplify the gameplay instead of add any intuition to it, flying just brings you into boost rings, which are automated and boring shortcuts, compared to say finding developed pathways that make Tails' game an equally exciting and fresh experience. It's likely why his Speed Highway is the one exception because you aren't facing Sonic, but instead Eggman, meaning the pathway starts to deviate and develop according to his moveset as things go along.

Gamma has a similar problem, though it feels more from lack of development, his levels are similarly shorter versions of Sonic, but while his gameplay does allow for a different approach and paths do deviate besides just streaming past the bulk of the level sometimes, just I think the programmers either ran out of time or really underestimated how quickly the player would get the hang of Gamma. The bosses could have made up for it but they're similarly patronisingly easy. Hot Shelter was probably the best example of Gamma's gameplay used to full potential, with a fairly large developed level and a boss that is quick to defeat but still puts up a bit of a fight (much like standard classic bosses really). The timer offers a bit more pressure in that level though if you know what you're doing you can still complete the level in plenty of time, giving a decent sense of Sonic-like momentum.

Even Big in concept I don't think is bad, it's just that, as mentioned his controls (both fishing and platforming) could be refined a lot better, and since all the levels are mostly just the fishing mini game (compared to say Gamma whose levels at least aren't just the targets) it means his levels are very same-y and basic. Hot Shelter toyed with a small platforming segment beforehand, though given Big's basic controls it doesn't really amount to much.

Knuckles is mostly fine in both level design and controls. The only problem is that, like Gamma, the gameplay patronises you a little, with emerald shards nearly always in only the same handful of areas in very plain sight. Red Mountain is generally considered his best level due to the level size and a slightly better variation of hiding places (without getting too complex and esoteric like parts of SA2). Maybe adding Knuckles enhanced control set from SA2 like the Drill Spin or digging through walls would allow a bit better variation and momentum. Just please, leave the radar as it is.

Amy's levels are probably the most developed and her gameplay works pretty well to them, besides her maybe being a bit too slow (and even then being relatively slower than Sonic is fine, but she trails behind even Big and Gamma). The bigger problem is that she only has THREE levels and ironically even two of them feel like filler.

Sonic without saying is the most developed besides some glitchy level and some automated sequences that are too easy to break. I'd maybe give him the instant light dash from later games to keep momentum going however.

Mini games is maybe where the game could be expanded better, only Sonic and Tails get the large bulk of them, which helps their stories feel more fleshed out. Maybe add one or two unique ones for each character whenever their levels start to get too repetitive (I'd love if they made a Big's Fishing Derby type mini game for Big, like some huge redeeming time waster for his campaign mode).

 

I do also wonder how SA1 would have played out if those handful of levels mentioned in the programming had made it in. One is labelled desert (which may have tied with Sand Hill to make it a full level) while another sounds like an Angel Island nostalgia level. It would have been interesting if some of these played some sort of role in the main plot and maybe were supposed to give the characters more relevance to the main story (I find it odd Eggman sends Gamma to collect only one emerald for example, with a very large time skip between this and his initial training, there could have been novelty playing more of the game as a bad guy perspective, maybe developing on Eggman's plan with Chaos before things turn to Gamma's revolt and personal agenda).

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I just realized, if Sonic Adventure gets a remake with a Sand Hill that looks similar to the one in TSR, we’ll have a complete reverse of the usual scenario. The spin-off inspires the main game! 

[NiktheGreek]

Hah, I knew that remake comment would cause a bit of a stir, so I couldn't resist including it in the feature. Actually, I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on Hoshino talking about the expectations of a sequel. If you enjoyed this feature, it'd be most appreciated if you bought a copy of the magazine. It's available at UK newsagents like WHSmith or you can order it directly from our online shop. Since it's the cover story, good sales will give us a good argument to do more Sonic/Dreamcast/Sega coverage.

I included almost everything from Iizuka and Hoshino, and only excluded one particular answer because it was a bit woolly and even with ten pages, I was running out of space. In the interests of giving you guys the full picture, I'll post it here:

Me: Likewise, an enemy like a dragon was also shown in Sky Chase. What happened to this one?
Iizuka: I don’t remember all the details about this, but I don’t think there was ever a plan to put a giant dragon enemy in Sky Chase, but the person in charge of Sky Chase took it upon themselves to create that model. Sky Chase was made at the last half of Development, during a busy time, so it may not have been completed in time to the level we felt comfortable implementing.

On 12/31/2018 at 6:37 AM, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Holy shit that website has the worst layout I’ve ever seen. At least on mobile, it’s a massive pain in the ass to read this.

The feature was written and designed for the print magazine - we have nothing to do with that website and to be honest I'm not even sure why it's up there.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Hey I just realized something else kinda cool.

Let’s say we get a Sonic Adventure remake in 2021. That would be 4 years after Mania and Forces, the same amount of time between Sonic 3&K (‘94) and the original release of Sonic Adventure (‘98). 

If they do this they need to reuse that awesome tagline: “Guess who’s back”

[Big-C]

Is Sonic Team even competent enough to remake Adventure 1? This franchise has become too unpredictable with it’s quality for me to have high expectations.

[Tornado]

On 12/31/2018 at 2:13 PM, Shadowlax said:

Sonic unleashes is a bad example, because they changed the name of the game in other regions specifically for that purpose

So they did do it for that purpose (something Sega was called on even at the time)... so it's a bad example.

 

 

Cool.

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While sonic 4 is a slightly better example , it is the cause of my point. They aren't gonna do that with sonic adventure. They saw the reception to that, it wasn't great. And later got a team together to make a real game.

They hold the Adventure games in higher reverence than they do the classic trilogy? They aren't going to do that thing they did in the past because Sonic Team/Sega is a group that learns its lessons from their mistakes?

They just trotted Classic Sonic out again for their latest trainwreck; a grab for nostalgia so unfocused that it's hard to tell if they are referencing the Genesis games or a game that had only come out in 2011. They just shoehorned another tie-in from an otherwise well-received and completely unrelated game so people will check out one that's... uh... not.

 

 

The latter, in fact, is almost identical to what they did with Sonic 4 and the Sonic CD Taxman release.

On 12/31/2018 at 2:13 PM, Shadowlax said:

Money is apart of it? And its more complicated than just now money? Its future money? And what is the future of the franchise and what you may be putting at risk is how businesses operate in regards to handling franchises.

In the past twenty years that make up 3D Sonic games, how many of them have gotten unabashedly good positive reception? Not positive-ish reception with a bunch of qualifiers and asterisks on it, but actually good reception.

Adventure (in its original release)

Adventure 2 (in its original release)

Colors, maybe?

Generations

And yet Sonic games still seem to sell pretty good. Sega went out of their way to talk about how well Forces, a game no one wanted to admit even could be good from the start, sold at the same time they were talking about Mania selling well. None of them are the absolute financial darlings that Sonic Heroes (an aggressively mediocre game that sold fantastically) or Shadow the Hedgehog (an abjectly terrible game that sold fantastically), but the genre as a whole collapsed after that console generation anyway and strapping the franchise to a failed system like the Wii U certainly didn't help Sonic's fortunes in that regard either.

 

 

 

This is also ignoring the appeal to authority concept where we're supposed to just assume that Sonic Adventure is so important to the history of the brand that Sega/Sonic Team would not allow themselves screw it up in any way. Companies do like money. Sega has, countless times in the past, shown that making money now is way god damned more important than any planning what to do in the future.

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Also its real weird you threaten to be ban people for being rude, then you mods do that. Weird.

It's real weird that I've seen you, personally you and not a collective like you're referring to the moderation staff, lecture people on making dumb arguments and then you trot out "companies like money" as something someone over 4 is supposed to take as enlightened information. Weird.

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When they ( or the other team ) made the good video game based on the nostalgia, people bought it. You are trying to do this attitude sas thing, and its funny because the answers to these questions are pretty simple.

So why didn't you answer it? Generations absolutely revitalized people's interest in the franchise's 3D entries with a well-received entry that even got really good word of mouth, and what did it actually amount to? Slightly more people bought the Sonic games they immediately squandered that good will with?

 

 

I know you're on this "Sonic Team finally remaking Sonic Adventure means they've achieved true spiritual enlightenment and from then on will do everything right" kick, but come the fuck on.

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... No it doesn't? I didn't say that everyone who played sonic now played sonic adventure.

You said it was the basis for the entire 3D Sonic "concept" as understood by people today. It cannot be, since:

1. Sonic Adventure 2 was already a fair bit different in design (of which Heroes discarded even more)
2. We've just finished an entire decade of games that are completely different from the first and second Adventure game

That's a pretty important consideration for it to be the "foundation" of anything. First, though, it was definitely the first.

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Statistically most of the people playing the new crash game, probably is a child who never played crash before. But a lot of em probably heard about it though siblings or folks on the net, games held in high regard, played the games in the remake versions , they were good , left an impression. Same happened with mania, same happened with spyro.

Except those series, even the mediocre-to-shitty entries, were always pretty similar to the Naughty Dog and Insomniac's. It's probably the main reason why Skylanders was reacted to so badly even by people who hadn't even touched a Spyro game since 2000. Ditto Nuts and Bolts being a pariah from day one. Someone who came into the Sonic series with Unleashed (which is decently likely since it is already a decade old and was released on all platforms of the time) or even Heroes (14 years old, also released on all platforms, sold way better than any 3D Sonic game after or before) doesn't have much of an understanding of the design principles of the first Sonic Adventure (released on a console that was dead after 6 months, then badly ported to another console after it was already an also-ran). Adventure 2 (released on the same console from above when it was already formally dead, released on the other in the very brief window where it had market relevance) is perhaps a lot closer to Heroes in design, but still different enough to be treated quite differently in retrospect.

 

Those games from those series that are held with such reverance also weren't torn to shreds when they were rereleased during the last console generation; which is something that happened to the game this thread is about when it was rereleased within the same generation (and to a far lesser extent Battle was as well). There's also the fact that the Spyro and Crash games, when they were new, sold dramatically better than any Adventure game ever did and were on the leading console of their generation. Statistically a lot more people played them and could spread that good word of mouth, even though a lot of people were introduced into the series by the mediocre games of the PS2 era anyway.

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What does this have to do with anything?

Because, again, the gameplay concepts that the series has utilized for the past decade are much more likely the ones that people think about when Sonic comes up than a game they probably didn't play or it's sequel they probably didn't play.

 

 

You really don't seem to grasp just old the two Adventure games are and how long ago any ideas that might have survived through Iizuka's first reign of terror were completely excised with Unleashed. There so old, and from such a different time, that I wouldn't be surprised if the only person who is still at Sonic Team from that time is Iizuka himself. People delineate the 3D games between Adventure and Modern for a reason.

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Considering the GCN port of SA2 sold a fuck ton and where I myself first SA2, nah.

Adventure 2 was:

• 17 years ago.
• Only available on the two worst selling consoles of that generation.
• Didn't actually sell amazingly even after rereleases compared to similar games on the consoles people actually were buying. Compare Adventure 2 Battle to Ratchet and Clank or Jak and Daxter.

I'm sorry you were apparently stuck with a Gamecube, but don't make the typical mistake that people who had N64s and Gamecubes do and overstate how much relevance the system actually had on the market to people who didn't own it. Heroes was the first game that was on the PS2 (and to a lesser level of importance, the Xbox). Heroes was the first game that was available on a system that people would have owned who may never even had friends with a Sega console. Heroes was the first Sonic game designed to be multiplatform and to reach the widest audience (meaning the demographics who bought PS2s and the original XBox, which were similar to each other but quite different from the ones who had Gamecubes). Heroes was the first game available on the systems driving the industry forward. Adventure 2 Battle and Adventure DX selling well on the rare occasion that someone bought a game that Nintendo didn't publish on the Gamecube does not hold much relevance to the overwhelming majority of people who did not own Gamecubes in that console generation.

 

 

That console generation was absolutely huge in importance. It was perhaps the most important one there has been to date in terms of impact in acceptance of the medium and advancements in the industry; rivaled probably only by the one before it. That was not because of anything the Gamecube did, so the Sonic games that were also available elsewhere were the ones that reaped the rewards of it.

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...Welcome to Capitalist entertainment?

So which is it? Would Sonic Team making and Sega approving a Sonic Adventure remake inherently be proof that the game is a sacred cow that a remake would absolutely perfect?

Or does the possibility exist that Sonic Team would still be incompetent (but maybe a bit more earnest this time), but Sega would still see easy dollar signs in the idea and rush it out?

 

 

 

Because they can't both be true for the first to be the tautology you keep presenting it as.

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Neat personal experience I guess. I don't know what this has to do with anything

People are often nostalgic for things that aren't very good, but it's hard to be nostalgic for something you've never experienced to begin with and that other people question the quality of in retrospect more than they praise. Someone's first Sonic game in 2019 very likely is not Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 even if it was yours.

[DabigRG]

Did the Gamecube really sell poorly?

[Tornado]

It got its first major price cut in only 6 months so the Xbox and PS2 wouldn't eat it alive when they started a price war with each other. Nintendo had to stop making them entirely in 2003 to sell through inventory, at which point it was promptly dropped to only $99 to also try and help. It was so bad at one point in 2003 that there were questions of whether Nintendo would ever restart production of it, since it wasn't known if they could even sell all of the backlogged inventory before Christmas of that year (ultimately a strong Christmas saved it that year). Before too long it was $99 with a pack-in game. In Europe the price drops were even more drastic, since they were forced to slash the price of it before it had even launched.

Its final sales look comparable to the Xbox because it sold so much better in Japan and sold for so much longer than the Xbox did (as the original Xbox was discontinued before the 360 had even came out because of production disputes with nVidia), but the reality of the system in the West when it was new was far different.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Tornado, I can’t help but feel that you’re understating the impact of SA2. If Sega wants to dip into the nostalgia well, an SA2 remake would do a lot better than a Heroes one. Speaking from personal experience, I simply haven’t been to a house with a GameCube where one of the games WASN’T SA2:B. That freaking game was everywhere in 2002-04, man. I’m in my mid-20s, and to this day, when childhood games come up in conversations with aquaintances and coworkers, if they had a GameCube, they remember SA2:B- without exception. 

Granted, all of that is fairly irrelevant to the prospect of a SA remake. That game didn’t have that ubiquity, not even close. 

[Tornado]

If this thread was about Sonic Adventure 2 getting a remake, my posts on the matter would be a lot different. It is the only Gamecube game I've retained to this day; even having sold off Melee (though too early to get in on the absurd prices it fetches now). I'll go to bat for it any day when it comes to defending most aspects of it; and I recognize that the view of how good it still is today is much different than that of the original game and much more compatible with what people would be accepting of in modern gameplay ideas. It's also something I'd think Sonic Team of today would have a much better chance at replicating the feel of, since Adventure 2 was much more Iizuka's baby from the start made.

 

 

 

The fact remains, however, that Adventure 2 Battle was a big deal huge game... for the Gamecube. It's significant mostly because of how few of those there actually were, how almost none of them were made by anyone but Nintendo, and because of what it was at the time for the Sonic franchise

[Wraith]

The idea that the Sonic Adventure games arguably did not make enough of a splash to be worth the effort of a mass scale remake but fucking Sonic Heroes did is eye opening. Eye opening in the same way that literally getting my eyes opened and poked at is eye opening. It hurts.

Sonic Heroes sucks guys. 

But I appreciate the outsider's perspective with this fandom's tendency to laser in on the Adventure games. I only ever had a Gamecube when I was younger so Sonic Heroes was just a step down, not the first step. I've seen pushes for a Heroes remake before and I've laughed the idea off but Sega might just look at the statistics and see it differently. Funny. 

[Tornado]

29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The idea that the Sonic Adventure games arguably did not make enough of a splash to be worth the effort of a mass scale remake but fucking Sonic Heroes did is eye opening.

I'm not going that far. People bought Enter the Dragonfly and Wrath of Cortex like absolute mad because of their wide availability and shiny new console generation appearance but they're still so inadequate compared to the previous ones that there's no reason to bother. Heroes is no different in that regard.

 

And to a certain extent it's not fair that Spyro and Crash's good games all got extensive remakes with the final one on the way; but then again even though a lot of people who bought N-Sane, Reignited or the CTR remake will not have ever touched the original games, those original games did originally sell way better than Sonic Adventure ever did on a much more popular platform with games that are way easier to still play anyway.

[Wraith]

20 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I'm not going that far. People bought Enter the Dragonfly and Wrath of Cortex like absolute mad because of their wide availability and shiny new console generation appearance but they're still so inadequate compared to the previous ones that there's no reason to bother. Heroes is no different in that regard.

 

I mean, I figure they still want to capitalize on the trend and might see Heroes as being in the best position of their early 3D lineup to do so, but it's more likely the case that they just continue cashing out on Sonic 1, 2 and now Mania.

[Dr. Detective]

12 hours ago, Wraith said:

The idea that the Sonic Adventure games arguably did not make enough of a splash to be worth the effort of a mass scale remake but fucking Sonic Heroes did is eye opening. Eye opening in the same way that literally getting my eyes opened and poked at is eye opening. It hurts.

Sonic Heroes sucks guys. 

But I appreciate the outsider's perspective with this fandom's tendency to laser in on the Adventure games. I only ever had a Gamecube when I was younger so Sonic Heroes was just a step down, not the first step. I've seen pushes for a Heroes remake before and I've laughed the idea off but Sega might just look at the statistics and see it differently. Funny. 

I'd absolutely love a Sonic Heroes remake. You know, my love for that game and what it did to ingrain my status as a fan of the series after Adventure 2: Battle brought me in is something that's stood the test of time despite my recognition of its flaws. However, if a remake were to happen and it were actually good, I'd be able to profess my love for the game without worrying about getting my fee fees hurt or clarifying that I was perfectly aware of all the things wrong with it every time I made mention of it being in my Top 3 favorites.

That's the beauty behind the prospect of a remake. The ones that benefit the most from it would be the ones that failed to completely live up to their potential the first go around. 

Or perhaps I just have a huge desire for another game where I can play as all of those characters in larger than life looking 3D environments again. If they make something like that and make it good, the defense I've built up for Heroes may wane a bit.

As it stands, it's still the only one I can rely on to provide that for me tough. Shit that's already widely considered to be good like the Lion King and Beauty and the Beast don't need remakes in comparison.

Of course, I'm completely and purposely ignoring the initial reception and which ones they'd see excitement and profit from reimagining the most when I say this.

[Wraith]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'd absolutely love a Sonic Heroes remake. You know, my love for that game and what it did to ingrain my status as a fan of the series after Adventure 2: Battle brought me in is something that's stood the test of time despite my recognition of its flaws. However, if a remake were to happen and it were actually good, I'd be able to profess my love for the game without worrying about getting my fee fees hurt or clarifying that I was perfectly aware of all the things wrong with it every time I made mention of it being in my Top 3 favorites.

That's the beauty behind the prospect of a remake. The ones that benefit the most from it would be the ones that failed to completely live up to their potential the first go around. 

Or perhaps I just have a huge desire for another game where I can play as all of those characters in larger than life looking 3D environments again. If they make something like that and make it could, the defense I've built up for Heroes may wane a bit.

As it stands, it's still the only one I can rely on to provide that for me tough. Shit that's already widely considered to be good like the Lion King and Beauty and the Beast don't need remakes in comparison.

Of course, I'm completely and purposely ignoring the reception and which ones they'd see excitement and profit from reimagining the most when I say this.

"Remaking" Sonic Heroes is an insane prospect to me as someone who puts mechanics first. I'm hard pressed to think of a single idea in that game that doesn't need some sort of retooling, expansion or refinement. It's not like Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 where I can see all sorts of gameplay ideas that are solid or well on their way to working. You'd be changing Sonic Heroes so drastically to be workable that you might end up just alienating people who liked it in the first place. 

It's the reason bad shit doesn't get remade. You are basically making something new but needlessly attaching the expectations of something old. 

I can't see the point when I see a game that far off the rails. If the simple prospect of controlling all of those characters is the appeal, I would at the very least take the basic idea and build something completely different around it first before anything else.

 

 

 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

"Remaking" Sonic Heroes is an insane prospect to me as someone who puts mechanics first. I'm hard pressed to think of a single idea in that game that doesn't need some sort of retooling, expansion or refinement. It's not like Sonic Adventure 1 or 2 where I can see all sorts of gameplay ideas that are solid or well on their way to working. You'd be changing Sonic Heroes so drastically to be workable that you might end up just alienating people who liked it in the first place. 

It's the reason bad shit doesn't get remade. You are basically making something new but needlessly attaching the expectations of something old. 

I can't see the point when I see a game that far off the rails. If the simple prospect of controlling all of those characters is the appeal, I would at the very least take the basic idea and build something completely different around it first before anything else.

I'm not so sure it'd alienate anyone who originally liked it. I can't speak for anyone else aside from me, but, a heavy retooling, expansion, and refinement of that game is exactly what I'd want. That's ultimately what I'd feel the point of a remake for that game would be. 

Sounds like a dream. I've got an array of ideas for how it'd work from a new script, to new plot points, to a different handle on how the teams work. Perhaps something more simple when it came to mechanics.

Have them act more like a single character with attributes of all three rather than three different characters with three different movesets at once that switched with the stop and start mechanic of a press of a button. Or maybe structure it like SA2:B where each character goes through a stage individually but the Team aspect is just there as a story aesthetic.

A re-working of the stages and environments would be in the cards too. Perhaps change the order each team visits each area depending on how the story is re-worked. Utilize different times of day and different locations within the levels to make individual stages more unique.

If you already hate Sonic Heroes than I don't see why not. You're not worried about yourself leaving it behind the way it used to be after all. I just want to be able to have a version of it out there that I can say with confidence is a super good time. All the stuff I wanted to be better about Heroes when I played it as a kid could be a reality with something like this. And I also don't really see how making something new with the expectations of the old is a problem that only persists when it comes to things you consider to be bad.

What we're imagining might just be too different to accurately get onto the page here though. It might just be one of those "seeing is believing" situations.