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Plasme

Should Sonic take a break?

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I'm going to be honest, I'd be happy if Mania's art direction was the consistent direction going forward, it's so much better than the 'Modern' design. Just ditch the art style that's dragging Sonic down and embrace what's great about Sonic!

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28 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'm going to be honest, I'd be happy if Mania's art direction was the consistent direction going forward, it's so much better than the 'Modern' design. Just ditch the art style that's dragging Sonic down and embrace what's great about Sonic!

While I do considerably prefer Mania’s art direction and the Classic designs to their Modern counterparts, art direction isn’t what’s dragging Sonic down, shitty gameplay is, at least for the 3D games.

As an example, if for whatever reason a Mania sequel uses the Modern designs, I wouldn’t care too much as long as it played just as good as Mania. In fact one of Mania’s artists, Paul Veer, mocked up a really nice 2D Sonic thing that used the modern designs a while back. 

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44 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'm going to be honest, I'd be happy if Mania's art direction was the consistent direction going forward, it's so much better than the 'Modern' design. Just ditch the art style that's dragging Sonic down and embrace what's great about Sonic!

I guess its just me actually playing all of the games in the series but I've messed with enough janky shit with classic Sonic on it that I don't actually automatically associate it with quality. The association of Classic Sonic and quality is mostly a hearsay/marketing thing for me, and that could easily fall through if they just started slapping it onto subpar games 

I'm biased though since I prefer the modern design despite preferring the classic gameplay. I know the popular mantra among Classic Fans is that modern is damaged to the core somehow but I don't really see that as being the case unless I'm talking to a classic fan. 

Most people just see Sonic as Sonic, and I'd rather them embrace the freedom to make reasonable tweaks to the design of both the characters and the world as the game needs instead of putting themselves in a box. Modern Sonic only came to be out of that freedom to begin with: Classic Sonic didn't look quite right in 3D compared to other characters at the time. As much as people may want to argue the contrary I still think that's the case. I like Classic's design but he looks awkward at a lot of angles and any take on him in 3D has immediately made that apparent. 

 

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You know what, i'm done. @UpCDownCLeftCRightC

Think whatever you want. I tried to use logic to appeal to you, and i feel like you are either  trying to solve a non problem with identity or what I think you are actually trying to do is be disingenuous about what you want, which is classic sonic all the time. Whichever one it is, I don't got time for it.  Peace

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

You know what, i'm done. @UpCDownCLeftCRightC

Think whatever you want. I tried to use logic to appeal to you, and i feel like you are either  trying to solve a non problem with identity or what I think you are actually trying to do is be disingenuous as fuck about what you want, which is classic sonic all the time. And I believe that's what you want because you are in an era where people accept different versions of sonic, classic sonic exits and is getting and shit and you still are arguing some imaginary brand manegement issue where everything needs to be unified despite it literally not benefiting anyone except your ego that other versions of sonic cease to be in focus Whichever one it is, I don't got time for it.  Peace

 

 

 

Not necessary. I just gave you my opinion, that's all. I said outright several times that the modern direction can be fine too and can work. Im not about classic sonic all the time, I like some aspects of both the adventure era and modern era. Some of my favorite sonic games come from all "3" eras. If i really hated them so completely, I would not be posting on these boards and would have abandoned the franchise a long time ago, because sonic has not been in the classic form for a long time. My ego and preference is not a factor here.

If you want me to agree with you, I'm sorry that may not happen. We probably do agree in some areas, as do all people, but my opinion is simply a matter of preference backed by some historical points, that's it, it's not something to get upset about. I have no issue with logic and am quite comfortable with it. So respectfully, I'll just agree to disagree as you put in a rather different energetic phrasing. 

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Ah. This is the bad thing about being late to the party. You see the title, you scroll down, and people have already said what instantly came to mind.

Yeah, if the four year gap in-between Lost World and Forces wasn't an indication that simply taking time off wasn't the issue than nothing would be at this point. The only thing that's a matter of time is how long their little cash cow can survive with its head practically cut off. 

A nice heaping helping of time can see a lot getting done if the passion and knowledge to see whatever vision you have come through is there. You just need the vision, the knowledge, and the passion.

Actual passion. Not the fake kind they talk about in interviews and marketing. 

Also, an actual fucking team of people might be a good thing to have too.

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7 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Also, an actual fucking team of people might be a good thing to have too.

You know, that's actually a question I've kind of bounced around in my head before. I don't think I know enough about game development and what goes into it for me to have a good enough answer for it, only just speculation and personal thoughts...so, I want to ask it to everyone else in the thread.

I know that the "Sonic Team" kind of set-up that we're so used to being familiar with is no longer a thing. Now, most of them have split up or gone off to other studios, and now it's just Sega employees sort of being rotated and moved around based on where they're needed most. Do you guys think that the Sonic franchise would benefit from having a Sonic Team again? Like, a group of Sega employees who focus mainly on Sonic games without being moved or splitting their focus on other things?

Like I said, I don't know enough about game development to know the pros and cons of this (or if this is a super common format nowadays or not?), so I don't have a good answer to this. I would love to see what other people think.

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I mean, most franchises are built with a lot of the same people iterating on them for years at a time because you can't really learn anything if you have to start from point one every game. Of course people come and go and hands change all the time but even in that case the "wheel" is often handed to trusted individuals who'd been working on the franchise in a smaller role for years regardless. 

A 'Sonic Team' will function as long as they are not overworked and understaffed. You just can't treat them like mules who have to churn out drastically different games year after year for a variety of different systems or of course key figures will burn out and quit at inconvenient times ala Naka. The ideal is that they prepare successors so that they can bow out gracefully. Miyamoto has not worked directly on Mario for some time now for instance. Koizumi has been conditioned to smoothly take over the lead position.

As with most things regarding Sonic, it just comes down to not treating your talented team of artists and devs like shit. 

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3 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Not necessary. I just gave you my opinion, that's all. I said outright several times that the modern direction can be fine too and can work. Im not about classic sonic all the time, I like some aspects of both the adventure era and modern era. Some of my favorite sonic games come from all "3" eras. If i really hated them so completely, I would not be posting on these boards and would have abandoned the franchise a long time ago, because sonic has not been in the classic form for a long time. My ego and preference is not a factor here.

If you want me to agree with you, I'm sorry that may not happen. We probably do agree in some areas, as do all people, but my opinion is simply a matter of preference backed by some historical points, that's it, it's not something to get upset about. I have no issue with logic and am quite comfortable with it. So respectfully, I'll just agree to disagree as you put in a rather different energetic phrasing. 

Well hey, to put a positive spin on this, as someone whose a fan of what I imagined was the Modern version of Sonic (mostly the time of the Adventure games, Heroes, and Sonic X) I too have a preference and a personal idea of what I think Sonic is and what I want it to be. That said, despite not liking the Classic designs or Classic gameplay very much, I had nothing but endless praise for Sonic Mania Adventures and admiration for the success that Sonic Mania managed to achieve. I completely agree that using the thought process behind what managed to make it a success could do well for fixing the identity problem that Sonic, or rather, 3D Sonic seems to have.

Despite still not having played Mania, it's obvious from the outside in, what kind of lessons the Modern side could take from what it did. Sonic Mania Adventures specifically did an excellent job showcasing action, adventure, and comedy in one complete package. The lean was definitely towards something more light-hearted but that's kind of what I'd imagine that branch of Sonic sticking with and managing well. Personally, I always imagined Modern Sonic could be something more middle-grounded. In the vain of your typical Disney/Pixar/Marvel movie. 

I hope that whatever lesson the people in charge of Modern Sonic take from Mania's success is more of a metaphorical one and not a literal one. They would have officially misunderstood what the issue is and how to fix it if they continue to do what they did in Forces and make Modern Sonic's spines smaller in the vein hopes that he'll resemble Classic Sonic, add in more 2D to Modern Sonic's gameplay, have him fart about Green Hill and Chemical Plant over and over again to invoke nostalgic imagery, and other embarrassing things that miss the point.

They have a clear understanding that Classic Sonic is the their most successful branch of Sonic but a misunderstanding as to why. I'd imagine it's the same reason any other series sees success to be honest. 

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You’re still disregarding the people who either got into Sonic with his non-classic entries. You can still have your Mania series that are all about living in the past, while allowing Modern Sonic to exist with his own identity.

A big part why I enjoy the IDW comics is because it’s the only current Sonic media that isn’t heavily fixated on reminding me how awesome the genesis era was.

The idea of only solely focusing on Classic era by constantly shoving GHZ aesthetics is gonna result in diminishing results eventually. There are fans who are sick of the classic nostalgia fest.

One example is how the Neo Saban era of Power Rangers has spent the last 8 years throwing Mighty Morphin call backs whenever they got the chance. Despite MMPR being more successful that didn’t stop fans begging for the franchise to move on from their 1993 roots. Because Power Rangers is more than just Mighty Morphin, and it wouldn’t last 25 years if it was the case.

If Sonic as a game series can only be considered good if the games can never shut the hell up about how awesome the good ol days of 1991 were, then I see no appealing future for Sonic if he has to be frozen in time. 

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

You can still have your Mania series that are all about living in the past,

 

28 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

The idea of only solely focusing on Classic era by constantly shoving GHZ aesthetics is gonna result in diminishing results eventually. There are fans who are sick of the classic nostalgia fest.

 

28 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

If Sonic as a game series can only be considered good if the games can never shut the hell up about how awesome the good ol days of 1991 were, then I see no appealing future for Sonic if he has to be frozen in time.

I too am sick to death of SEGA rehashing Green Hill Zone and Chemical Plant Zone time and time again. What was exciting for me to see re-imagined back in 2011 with Sonic Generations, has now become increasing frustration as I see them churning out these levels repeatedly to the point of utter exhaustion.

What I don't want to see go away, however, is the gameplay formula itself from Classic Sonic's retro games and Sonic Mania. I want to see that gameplay formula maintained (And expanded on appropriately, if done with careful consideration.) for future 2D. Sonic games, which should have new Zones, all with their own identity.

We get to see a glimpse of originality through Sonic Mania's 4 more original Zones, and I'm very eager to see if SEGA will follow-up Sonic Mania with a successor, containing only fresh Zones and a more cohesive narrative ala Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I don't fully agree that the "Mania series"/2D. Sonic game series is "all about living in the past", or at least, it shouldn't be. Rather, it ought to be a respectful continuation of the style of Classic Sonic's retro games, and continue using its valuable physics and collision gameplay, while bringing new Zones to the table.

Edited by Naean

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@Naean The thing is I don’t want Classic Sonic to go away. I want Modern Sonic to exist without needing the aesthetics from those games. I’m just sick of hearing about Classic this and Classic that all the time.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, knuckles20 said:

@Naean The thing is I don’t want Classic Sonic to go away. I want Modern Sonic to exist without needing the aesthetics from those games. I’m just sick of hearing about Classic this and Classic that all the time.

Oh yeah, absolutely, I hear you on that.

3D. Sonic in general has failed to grab my attention in a significant manner since Sonic Adventure, but I would not want the 3D. Sonic series of games to die off. I see a massive ocean of missed 3D. Sonic game potential that SEGA have not yet truly tapped into successfully. Unfortunately, regular subpar 3D. Sonic games published by SEGA, alongside the mass praised and well received Sonic Mania (And Sonic Mania Adventures.), results in official marketing and word-of-mouth buzz being mostly Classic Sonic focused.

Until SEGA get their act together with Modern Sonic, and produce a 3D. game which is at least close to Sonic Mania quality, unfortunately I don't see SEGA pushing much Modern Sonic stuff besides occasional promotion of spin-off games such as Team Sonic Racing. I'm still holding out hope that SEGA manage to gather developers which can produce a really solid 3D. Sonic game, but as of late, that avenue sadly hasn't been looking promising. Things have been sadly very lacking on that front.

Edited by Naean

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I sometimes wonder if video games really are the most fitting merchandise for Sonic. I know it sounds weird to say this, since he was created to be a video game star, but for me it seems the focus on Sonic was always in how to present him correctly for the fans. I mean, sure other series like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are also depending on their characters and how they are represented, but it seems to me that Sega have to focus much more on this than others.

Also, at least how I see it, the character of Sonic and also his friends, where always the most beloved part of the series. How they act, how they are written, how they are designed and how they are executed in the end. And I'm not wrong about this. Out of all the video game stars, Sonic did had the most animated series and also the longest running comic series.

Maybe, just maybe, the should just use Modern Sonic for this from now own and just put out sometimes a video game. Kinda like Disney doe sit with their characters.   

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3 hours ago, Rowl said:

I sometimes wonder if video games really are the most fitting merchandise for Sonic. I know it sounds weird to say this, since he was created to be a video game star, but for me it seems the focus on Sonic was always in how to present him correctly for the fans. I mean, sure other series like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro are also depending on their characters and how they are represented, but it seems to me that Sega have to focus much more on this than others.

I figure that's mostly because of how much they've splintered Sonic's identity. All those different cartoons and comics and the differences between the games over the years means everyone's got their favorite Sonic, but they're all different Sonics, and now that everyone's unhappy and trying to figure out what went wrong and where to go next everybody thinks their Sonic is the one that'd fix things.

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2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I figure that's mostly because of how much they've splintered Sonic's identity. All those different cartoons and comics and the differences between the games over the years means everyone's got their favorite Sonic, but they're all different Sonics, and now that everyone's unhappy and trying to figure out what went wrong and where to go next everybody thinks their Sonic is the one that'd fix things.

And when people feel like another Sonic is being catered to over their own Sonic, things can get ugly :V

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On 1/5/2019 at 9:17 PM, Diogenes said:

I'm no expert myself, but there's been a lot of theorizing (and I think some actual statements from people involved) that there was a lot of burnout in Sonic Team back when it was more stable. I doubt either end of things is a perfect solution.

 

On 1/5/2019 at 9:50 PM, Wraith said:

I mean, most franchises are built with a lot of the same people iterating on them for years at a time because you can't really learn anything if you have to start from point one every game. Of course people come and go and hands change all the time but even in that case the "wheel" is often handed to trusted individuals who'd been working on the franchise in a smaller role for years regardless. 

A 'Sonic Team' will function as long as they are not overworked and understaffed. You just can't treat them like mules who have to churn out drastically different games year after year for a variety of different systems or of course key figures will burn out and quit at inconvenient times ala Naka. The ideal is that they prepare successors so that they can bow out gracefully. Miyamoto has not worked directly on Mario for some time now for instance. Koizumi has been conditioned to smoothly take over the lead position.

As with most things regarding Sonic, it just comes down to not treating your talented team of artists and devs like shit. 

Thank you two for your responses. I always suspected that there was some sort of burn-out or something like that back when Sonic Team was more of a thing, but I never really went deeper into researching it. I remember reading some bits and pieces from Sonic '06's development being rushed as hell, which eventually led to Yuji Naka leaving in the middle of it all. That's really the only thing that I know for sure. I don't know of any other tidbits from development of any other Sonic games. If anyone knows any good articles about this topic, please point me to them!

Maybe the Team was just burned out and wanted to move on, but couldn't since Sonic is such a big Sega IP? And eventually they all just quit instead of sticking around? Or maybe it was due to monetary reasons? I honestly don't really know how the shift from Sonic Team to rotating Sega employees happened or why. I don't have any other reference to any other video game development teams (with the exception of the Miyamoto and Koizuma thing that I just learned) so I wouldn't really know. Maybe another Sonic Team will be implemented in the future at one point. I'm just wildly speculating at this point. I appreciate the information!

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4 hours ago, TideKai said:

Maybe the Team was just burned out and wanted to move on, but couldn't since Sonic is such a big Sega IP?

That and also there is sadly now other Sega IP that comes even close to the popularity of Sonic. This is also reason why Sega and Sonic Team can't really give Sonic a huge break. There just has to be something of Sonic each year. Not necessarily a main line game, but just something to keep the series going.  

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:27 AM, Plasme said:

If you all have this little faith in SEGA and Sonic Team ever improving, then should Sonic just die?

Sometimes I feel death would be a kinder faith to the franchise than seeing it mangled and twisted again and again.

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