Change a character’s personality

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Any characters in particular that just nag at you? That just beg for a rewrite? What would you change about them?

[Mountaindewandsprite]

Sonic could stand to be a little, no scratch that, A LOT more serious. Not saying he should be Shadow edgy (he should still be a witty and carefree guy), but it's hard to sell a story as serious when the titular character is cracking jokes in the face of a serious threat. The lack of seriousness on Sonic's part is part of the reason why some people label him as a Gary Stu, where he can just waltz over and kick the villain's ass, while trying to be a wise guy. Also, he can have attitude but don't let him be a douche.

Tails needs to be that one child who is eager to help, albeit, due to his age and naivete is sort of shielded by the older, more experienced Sonic. He can still retain his smarts, but don't make him the stereotypical timid nerd who is scared of his own shadow. I'd prefer if Tails was this determined, yet overzealous boy wanting to prove himself then realizing that brawn isn't everything and that brains counts. Although, I would love to see Tails beat the shit out of a villain just once.

Knuckles needs to deviate away from the Master Emerald. The whole concept of this loner tied to duty is actually holding his character back. The Master Emerald is a handicap for Knuckles to make any appearances. Not to mention that pre-Forces games have made him this gullible, dumb, butt monkey who gets slapped around by the others. Knuckles should be a chill, disciplined, aspiring, ambitious yet solitary, cynical, and harsh, not some short-tempered jock. The ironic part about this is, IIRC, when the games first began it was Sonic who was described as the hot-headed one and Knuckles the chill and laid back type.

Amy could be the rough and tumble type, yet still maintaining her feminine side and would put Sonic in his place. I'd actually love to see them have a rivalry. I'd have her be slightly bitchy (in a good way of course)

Eggman should be more sinister, nuff said.

Shadow needs to stop trying to be the Sasuke and Vegeta of the Sonic series. I'd like for him to be that one trope (I forget the name) where the character is this sweet and shy individual who knows he/she is capable of amazing power when forced to unleash it but his suppress and reserved. Sort of like Mighty in a way. 

 

 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Sonic could stand to be a little, no scratch that, A LOT more serious.

I vote for the opposite of this. I want Sonic to give no shits except maybe in the most extreme situations. That doesn't mean he can't be challenged or beaten or that he doesn't have to try, but he's not the type to let the odds get him down or to let the villain see him sweat.

[Kuzu]

I don't see why he can't be both. Let him be cocky and arrogant when things are going his way, and let him get serious when things are going to shit. If you want Sonic to be an actual character, then he needs difference ranges of emotions depending on the situation. So he doesn't have to constantly make jokes to look "Cool" but he doesn't have to be a straight-laced hero either. 

 

[dbzfan7]

Mostly everyone. Like every core character needs an AA badly. And yes I mean both attitude adjustment, and the renamed "FU" fireman's carry slam wrestling move. I don't really feel I'd contribute much by reposting the same spiel I always do. So instead I'll say focusing on some sort of character bible may be a good idea.

[StaticMania]

Knuckles so far is the most inconsistent character.

Let him be chill and only hot-headed about things that specifically bother him. He's the type of character who loses his cool easily but only because of what happens to him, not what happens around him.

Shadow could stand to be a bit less of an arms crossed quiet rival.

He can only be so serious. Attitude wise, he should be able to match Sonic the Hedgehog quite easily. Legit rivals tend to clash because despite of their differences, they do share something in common personality wise. That makes it interesting to watch...especially since they're both on the hero side.

This is longer than my usual posting standards, so I'm gonna stop.

[Fire-N-Space]

Sonic - Have him be much more kinder to Amy becoming slightly romantic.

Tails - As Sonic said he needs to think less are else I'm going to call him brains too have him try to be like knuckles sometimes.  

Amy Rose - She needs to act whimsical while squeezing the life out of Sonic with affectionate hugs!  

[Wraith]

35 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I don't see why he can't be both. Let him be cocky and arrogant when things are going his way, and let him get serious when things are going to shit. If you want Sonic to be an actual character, then he needs difference ranges of emotions depending on the situation. So he doesn't have to constantly make jokes to look "Cool" but he doesn't have to be a straight-laced hero either. 

 

Even if shit got real and Sonic got insecure about how things were going I don't think he'd be the type to show it. I'd probably save the 'serious' side for Sonic for the most urgent of situations. Otherwise it's fun-times. 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I don't see why he can't be both. Let him be cocky and arrogant when things are going his way, and let him get serious when things are going to shit. If you want Sonic to be an actual character, then he needs difference ranges of emotions depending on the situation. So he doesn't have to constantly make jokes to look "Cool" but he doesn't have to be a straight-laced hero either. 

It's easy to be cocky when you're winning. That's the boring part, at least relatively speaking. I want Sonic to be defiantly cocky, to not let the villains set the tone, to never give them an inch without a fight. And that doesn't preclude him from having other emotions, he can still get angry or sad, and even "serious" cocky can be a different thing from playful cocky.

Like, SA2, the scene before Sonic vs Shadow 2, that's basically peak Sonic for me. Just took a huge gamble to save his own ass from blowing up in space, rushing to stop an orbital laser from blasting a few countries away with only minutes to spare, but he's still got time for cheesy one-liners and taunting Shadow. That little fuckin' grin and eyebrow raise when Shadow's saying there's no way he could've CC'd with a fake emerald is perfect, that's the Sonic I fell in love with. Last Story aside it's the climax of the story, the moment when things are about as serious as they get (okay, maybe second after the exploding capsule), but Sonic...isn't. And it works. It's one of the best scenes in the series.

And I can't see a scene that good ever coming out of a Sonic that can't crack jokes and has to take things very seriously.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Even if shit got real and Sonic got insecure about how things were going I don't think he'd be the type to show it. I'd probably save the 'serious' side for Sonic for the most urgent of situations. Otherwise it's fun-times. 

I didn't say I want him to be insecure and start doubting himself; the entire charm of Sonic's character is that he doesn't doubt himself. He's so confident in himself that he doesn't have to worry. But at the same time, he has the capacity to understand when a situation is dire and cut the jokes and get shit done.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

All of the characters should be rewritten to actually have personalities

 

...I'm only half-joking. It's very frustrating that all the character traits of every character are so inconsistently applied. If you want to be fully accurate, you practically can't describe a Sonic character as having any personality trait without adding caveats like "well, in these games he was portrayed as being this way, but in these games...blah blah blah..."

Obviously they do have personalities in individual games and some of these personality traits carry over from one game to another, and there's also personality in their "marketing" (how they're presented, described in user's manuals, etc.), and this enough to create an image in people's minds of what that character "is" or "should be" (that varies greatly from one person to another), but these tiny glimpses of consistency and promise just make the overall inconsistency and changes in direction all the more frustrating.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I didn't say I want him to be insecure and start doubting himself; the entire charm of Sonic's character is that he doesn't doubt himself. He's so confident in himself that he doesn't have to worry. But at the same time, he has the capacity to understand when a situation is dire and cut the jokes and get shit done.

Well we're basically on the same page then. He'd definitely cut the shit if, say, Tails was in danger.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's easy to be cocky when you're winning. That's the boring part, at least relatively speaking. I want Sonic to be defiantly cocky, to not let the villains set the tone, to never give them an inch without a fight. And that doesn't preclude him from having other emotions, he can still get angry or sad, and even "serious" cocky can be a different thing from playful cocky.

Like, SA2, the scene before Sonic vs Shadow 2, that's basically peak Sonic for me. Just took a huge gamble to save his own ass from blowing up in space, rushing to stop an orbital laser from blasting a few countries away with only minutes to spare, but he's still got time for cheesy one-liners and taunting Shadow. That little fuckin' grin and eyebrow raise when Shadow's saying there's no way he could've CC'd with a fake emerald is perfect, that's the Sonic I fell in love with. Last Story aside it's the climax of the story, the moment when things are about as serious as they get (okay, maybe second after the exploding capsule), but Sonic...isn't. And it works. It's one of the best scenes in the series.

And I can't see a scene that good ever coming out of a Sonic that can't crack jokes and has to take things very seriously.

See, that scene works, but mostly under a few circumstances. Firstly, it's Sonic throwing Shadow's smug ass attitude right back in his face. Throughout the entire game, Shadow considered Sonic beneath him and barely gave him notice while Sonic took him completely seriously. The final encounter? Their roles have reversed; now Shadow is the one who has to take Sonic seriously and Sonic can revel in one-upping Shadow in the one thing that separated them. Sonic earned the right to be cocky, he's basically telling Shadow "Fuck you" 

But I think that's the defining factor for me, Sonic's cockiness almost never feels earned in some cases and its probably why it grates on some people. Like you said, it's boring when Sonic is already at an advantage and being cocky. Now when Sonic goes through some shit and overcomes it, THEN he can be a smug jackass about it.

So its more of a matter of when said cockiness s appropriate.

 

[StaticMania]

Sonic tends to be/act more serious when there are less people around which also makes sense for his character...when the stakes are right anyway. His joking around and cocky nature tends to add some sort of comfort for his friends...except for Knuckles for obvious reasons.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

I think Sonic’s default personality should be some combination of the shonen anime Sonic we got in the early 2000’s, and the sardonic and laid-back version we have now. His Forces characterization was pretty great, but it could’ve definitely used some of that sense of passion he used to have. He never really seems genuinely upset with Eggman, something I really thought we’d see given the 2016 teaser. We even saw hints of it with lines like “Time to tag out, Silver. I’ll take it from here.” And “Okay, Shadow, what’s the deal?!” Unlike so many other aspects of the series, Sonic himself wouldn’t really need a huge paradigm shift to get right. 

[dbzfan7]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I didn't say I want him to be insecure and start doubting himself; the entire charm of Sonic's character is that he doesn't doubt himself. He's so confident in himself that he doesn't have to worry. But at the same time, he has the capacity to understand when a situation is dire and cut the jokes and get shit done.

I think it's more to give the situation credit is all. When Sonic in the finale of Generations says "I beat you every time, and now I got two of me" or in Colors "It's like our day job or something", that kind of cocky just sucks out all the possible tension there is. You can be quipy and cocky, without completely trivializing a scene. He's not really impressed by anything most of the time. He's bored so we're bored. He doesn't feel the least bit threatened, neither do we.

Spidey for example is quipy and joke filled on the outside, but it's clear on the inside he still focused and not utterly dumping on all tension. On the outside he'll mock his enemies, but on the inside he thinks of the civilians and battle plans, etc.

[MadmanRB]

Hooo boy.

Firstly i would make Sonic have his fear of water again, having him have a fear of water is a great weakness as that could tie to the drowning mechanic a little more.

Making Sonic completely fearless makes him boring.

Make him have some doubts now and then too, bring some complexity to his character for a change.

Secondly I will make Tails a lot less timid, sure he is allowed to have fears and doubts too but I really hated what they did to him in forces.

He is allowed to have fears and moments of doubt now and then but making him such a weakling does not become him.

Thirdly can we please make Knuckles less of a meathead?

I mean sure he doesnt have to be bloody Stephen Hawking but give him a brain.

Fourth make Amy far less clingy, she needs to break out on her own rather than just being a Sonic fangirl.

She can still have a attraction to him yes but her being so clingy is very annoying.

 

And for the love of god Make Robotnik Robotnik again and not eEggman, maker him a legit threat to sonic too.

I mean sure he can still have his goofy moments but Sonic really needs a good villain again who is not Shadow clone #23495

[Wraith]

I like some of the ideas in the modern interpretations of the characters. I actually like that Tails is kind of a nanny who's prone to calling Sonic out on his BS because their relationship would be boring if Tails had basically nothing to teach Sonic in return for basically following him wherever he goes and going by what he wants to do. I like that Sonic is snarky again because he's just way more interesting that way. I love Knuckles as comic relief and I think it's more true to the character than anything. 

I just don't think a lot of these ideas are done in a way that lands, and I've been over why before. I don't think a massive shift in who the main characters are is needed, they just need to not be so sloppy with the execution. 

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I think it's more to give the situation credit is all. When Sonic in the finale of Generations says "I beat you every time, and now I got two of me" or in Colors "It's like our day job or something", that kind of cocky just sucks out all the possible tension there is. You can be quipy and cocky, without completely trivializing a scene. He's not really impressed by anything most of the time. He's bored so we're bored. He doesn't feel the least bit threatened, neither do we.

Spidey for example is quipy and joke filled on the outside, but it's clear on the inside he still focused and not utterly dumping on all tension. On the outside he'll mock his enemies, but on the inside he thinks of the civilians and battle plans, etc.

Well for starters, Sonic isn't Spider-man.

Its been stated in multiple media that Spidey's quips are mostly to distract himself from how terrified he is of his current situation, it's a coping mechanism. 

Sonic, as far as we can see,  is just that naturally confident in himself. That's who he is and that should never change.

 

That scene you mentioned isn't trivial because of Sonic's attitude,  it's trivial because Sonic himself does not go through any sort of trial to get to that point. If you changed Sonic's attitude to be more "serious" then the scene becomes just boring. It's really just a matter of framing the story properly and proper buildup is all. 

 

As I mentioned in Dio's post, the Sonic & Shadow fight isn't trivialized due to the former's attitude because he went through hell to get to that point and earned every right to be cocky.

[StaticMania]

Tails himself could be a mixed of the eager wide-eyed tech kid from Sonic Adventure and the more snarky-Sonic like jabber who can call Sonic out when necessary. A combo like that would probably create a more balanced character that people appreciate more...and maybe even be more consistent as well.

The occasional snark makes him...not as boring as he was in SA2 - Sonic Nex Gen and eager youthful innocence could keep him from being too like "Lost World" even though it's his best portrayal.

[dbzfan7]

33 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Well for starters, Sonic isn't Spider-man.

Its been stated in multiple media that Spidey's quips are mostly to distract himself from how terrified he is of his current situation, it's a coping mechanism. 

Sonic, as far as we can see,  is just that naturally confident in himself. That's who he is and that should never change.

 

That scene you mentioned isn't trivial because of Sonic's attitude,  it's trivial because Sonic himself does not go through any sort of trial to get to that point. If you changed Sonic's attitude to be more "serious" then the scene becomes just boring. It's really just a matter of framing the story properly and proper buildup is all. 

 

As I mentioned in Dio's post, the Sonic & Shadow fight isn't trivialized due to the former's attitude because he went through hell to get to that point and earned every right to be cocky.

I disagree. My Spidey comparison wasn't the "Hey let's do exactly this" it's just a form of how this archetype has been handled. It's a way. I'm not expecting Sonic to be some scared child inside, but definitely take some things into consideration. By showing no fear, he gives hope to those around him. It's easy to feel safer when your hero tells you there's nothing to worry about.

It is totally trivial because of his attitude. Time Space is fucked and what we basically get is...yeah whatever...you suck I rule, let's do this song and dance yet again. I'd take the real super power of teamwork over that shit. Sonic has no sincerity to him, and neither does his world. I don't believe in it or anything going on because nobody including the writers don't believe in it or put their heart into it. There's supposed to be a reason to a characters being, an internal logic to who they are and how they are. It no longer exists as of late..

Back to the Spidey comparison there's an internal logic to basically everything that is Peter. Why he is like this and that etc. To Sonic his internal logic mostly comes down to....because cartoon hedgehog....that's about the extent he goes. No real goal, motivation, driving force behind acts, etc. Nothing beyond. Cartoon hedgehog, do hero thing, cause that's what hero does.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I disagree. My Spidey comparison wasn't the "Hey let's do exactly this" it's just a form of how this archetype has been handled. It's a way. I'm not expecting Sonic to be some scared child inside, but definitely take some things into consideration. By showing no fear, he gives hope to those around him. It's easy to feel safer when your hero tells you there's nothing to worry about.

It is totally trivial because of his attitude. Time Space is fucked and what we basically get is...yeah whatever...you suck I rule, let's do this song and dance yet again. I'd take the real super power of teamwork over that shit. Sonic has no sincerity to him, and neither does his world. I don't believe in it or anything going on because nobody including the writers don't believe in it or put their heart into it. There's a reason to characters, an internal logic to who they are and how they are. It no longer exists.

Back to the Spidey comparison there's an internal logic to basically everything that is Peter. Why he is like this and that etc. To Sonic his internal logic mostly comes down to....because cartoon hedgehog....that's about the extent he goes. No real goal, motivation, driving force behind acts, etc. Nothing beyond. Cartoon hedgehog, do hero thing, cause that's what hero does.

Yes...because Sonic is a cartoon hedgehog. That's what he is, that's what he's always been, and that's what he's always going to be.

You're comparing comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Spider-Man and Sonic; Spider-Man is series about a man growing up and learning responsibility while trying to balance his life as a crime fighter with his own personal life. Sonic is the farthest you can ever get from that. The only thing the two have in common is that they joke with their enemies...and that's about it.

I'll repeat, Sonic's attitude is not the issue. Sonic is cocky, that's what he's always going to be whether you like it or not. I already explained the issue is how the series frames the the situation and how it never builds up to these moments to have the intended effect. So please take time to read on why I explained how the framing is important.

56 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

See, that scene works, but mostly under a few circumstances. Firstly, it's Sonic throwing Shadow's smug ass attitude right back in his face. Throughout the entire game, Shadow considered Sonic beneath him and barely gave him notice while Sonic took him completely seriously. The final encounter? Their roles have reversed; now Shadow is the one who has to take Sonic seriously and Sonic can revel in one-upping Shadow in the one thing that separated them. Sonic earned the right to be cocky, he's basically telling Shadow "Fuck you" 

But I think that's the defining factor for me, Sonic's cockiness almost never feels earned in some cases and its probably why it grates on some people. Like you said, it's boring when Sonic is already at an advantage and being cocky. Now when Sonic goes through some shit and overcomes it, THEN he can be a smug jackass about it.

So its more of a matter of when said cockiness s appropriate.

 

 

[dbzfan7]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yes...because Sonic is a cartoon hedgehog. That's what he is, that's what he's always been, and that's what he's always going to be.

You're comparing comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Spider-Man and Sonic; Spider-Man is series about a man growing up and learning responsibility while trying to balance his life as a crime fighter with his own personal life. Sonic is the farthest you can ever get from that. The only thing the two have in common is that they joke with their enemies...and that's about it.

I'll repeat, Sonic's attitude is not the issue. Sonic is cocky, that's what he's always going to be whether you like it or not. I already explained the issue is how the series frames the the situation and how it never builds up to these moments to have the intended effect. So please take time to read on why I explained how the framing is important.

 

I think you're missing the point entirely. Hell you can read the Zooptopia creators entire point about world design if you need more insight, an how they went about changing main characters, script re-writes, etc. Framing is not the issue at all. If Sonic just acts the same the whole time anyways even if built up, then nothing changes. He just looks like an idiot in the beginning, continues to do so until his bullheaded idiocy eventually wins out.

His attitude on his world and life is the problem. And yes Sonic is a cartoon hedgehog, and if that was what all he was, we wouldn't have this thread to begin with. There would be nothing to talk about. Nothing to discuss when it comes to him or his peers. Clearly he's not just hedgehog hero does thing, or we wouldn't have fans of numerous different Sonic interpretations. The main character guides us through their story. If they don't care about their own story, why should we?

Sonic has had varying degrees of attitude from way past 100 ala Sonic the Comic UK to near 0 ala Sonic 06. We perceive the world through his eyes. We follow him everywhere he goes. If my main character just tells me how lame, boring, and mundane things are....well why bother? I have that in life. Even Goku from Super/GT has more of an underlying character than Sonic as of late, even after dumbing down from previously.

Framing doesn't mean crap if Sonic doesn't give me a reason to care about him or his surroundings. Hell it's like he's saying "Yeah my stories are shit you might as well not bother and just play the game". That's the current attitude he has. Rather than guiding us, he basically shoves us away and urges us to just skip and play the game. We're wasting our time otherwise.

 

 

[StaticMania]

I get the feeling that line would be even less of a problem if Sonic didn't say the line "It's like our job or something." Because that's the only part that matters.

[Kuzu]

44 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I think you're missing the point entirely. Hell you can read the Zooptopia creators entire point about world design if you need more insight, an how they went about changing main characters, script re-writes, etc. Framing is not the issue at all. If Sonic just acts the same the whole time anyways even if built up, then nothing changes. He just looks like an idiot in the beginning, continues to do so until his bullheaded idiocy eventually wins out.

His attitude on his world and life is the problem. And yes Sonic is a cartoon hedgehog, and if that was what all he was, we wouldn't have this thread to begin with. There would be nothing to talk about. Nothing to discuss when it comes to him or his peers. Clearly he's not just hedgehog hero does thing, or we wouldn't have fans of numerous different Sonic interpretations. The main character guides us through their story. If they don't care about their own story, why should we?

Sonic has had varying degrees of attitude from way past 100 ala Sonic the Comic UK to near 0 ala Sonic 06. We perceive the world through his eyes. We follow him everywhere he goes. If my main character just tells me how lame, boring, and mundane things are....well why bother? I have that in life. Even Goku from Super/GT has more of an underlying character than Sonic as of late, even after dumbing down from previously.

Framing doesn't mean crap if Sonic doesn't give me a reason to care about him or his surroundings. Hell it's like he's saying "Yeah my stories are shit you might as well not bother and just play the game". That's the current attitude he has. Rather than guiding us, he basically shoves us away and urges us to just skip and play the game. We're wasting our time otherwise.

 

 

It's not that I don't agree with you, but rather I think you're taking the writing of this series way too seriously and it's kind of causing tunnel vision.

Yes Sonic has multiple interpretations, but the core of his character is the same in all of them. He's a cocky, young teenager with s heart of gold.

If you prefer another interpretation of Sonic than what is currently being shown in the games, fine. But I think its important to be open  to other interpretations otherwise you'll never be satisfied.

 

I don't mind the ironic sense of atmosphere currently in the series, but I do wish things were a bit more sincere. And Sonic doesn't have to be hyper serious and focused to accomplish that.