Which character is the most unnecessary?

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

If Sonic really ends up falling down that trap of feeling shallow, that would be the time for the more subtle aspects of his character to show.

The scenario I described for Sonic's story in Nex Gen doesn't rely on making Sonic more complex (it's no different than that one Sonic X episode with the wheel chair girl), it's just focusing on more than just his primary character traits. Sonic's story is the one that's suppose to introduce you to the game and the world...which is why there's no real problem for him being not as plot relevant as other characters.

Sonic can have his own motivation of course, SA2 kinda does that with the doppelganger situation. Focusing on how Sonic feels about stuff can help this too, but they really seem unable to do that when Sonic isn't the sole character...and there's actually no reason for this other than they don't wanna try.

I think the storybook games were pretty good at giving him a wide variety of emotions, but for the most part they keep Sonic pretty one-dimensional.

 

 

[StaticMania]

That's pretty much what I mean when I say "when Sonic's the sole" character. I mean his friends are there, sure, but they're caricatures of characters that already exist and the sword just exists for Sonic to bounce off. He's not going through any sort of development...but just a character study pretty much. Which is also good, that's something that helps us learn about the character without really changing him.

[Almar]

I posted this before and I'll say it again: Mario gets away with its large cast compared with Sonic since Mario's games have done more to establish themselves as happening in a proper world despite how little continuity there is. Just by comparing Eggman's robots with all the enemy species in Bowser's Empire shows that there are not only plenty Bowser Minions with personality compared to Eggman's metallic hordes but that there are plenty members of Mario enemy species who are friendly to our mustached hero instead of hostile.

Enough of the species for the playable Sonic cast are treated as special in that we hardly or never encounter random NPCs of that species (with the echidnas a neat exception). It's something that expanded universe has long taken care of but not really done in the games until Forces.

Mario fans don't ask so much about characters being unnecessary or forced or needing to go away since they accept Mario games happen in a whimsical world filled with wacky characters who don't need to be important but are still handy for flavor.

[StaticMania]

Mario gets away with its large cast because the majority of the created characters exist for spin-offs.

The Main Mario games have: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Captain Toad, and Rosalina...

Spin-offs have: Everyone else and the Koopalings.

It doesn't exactly matter since Wario and DK have their own series, Yoshi having a smaller sub-series of games...

Mario has it all.

[Iko]

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I think we talked about this a while back, but Battle was in this weird spot where it has the honor of being the one game where Cream is given extensive focus and interaction, but it comes after her introductions of Advance 2 and Heroes, which were relatively excuse plot games with minimal to nonexistent storytelling. Which meant it had to actually establish a more defined characterization for Cream before it developed her from it, which in this case was the notion of her being something of a pacifist in comparison to the other characters. I never actually played the game though, but I have to ask: in addition to apparently having her going several rounds in the boxing ring with Amy(which is kinda outstanding), is there any correlation with this statwise?

I played Sonic Battle many years ago so I can't remember well, though I remember that she got stuck inside Eggman's base because her complex about pacifism was so strong that she was even unable to hit a robot.

I find this extremely weird since in Sonic Advance 2, when she meets Sonic for the first time, she asks him about her mother being kidnapped, Sonic ignores her and runs away without listening, then she decides to do the job by herself and fight against Eggman's army in order to save her mother.

[Rowl]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Mario gets away with its large cast because the majority of the created characters exist for spin-offs.

I think the reason why Mario can also get aways with his large cast of characters is, because a lot of them fill in a different role in his universe. Luigi is Mario's brother, Yoshi is his pet... i guess, Peach is Mario's love interest I guess... I'm now not really sure with that after Odyssey, Daisy is Luigi's love interest, Wario is Mario's rival, Bowser is Mario's main enemy, Bowser Jr. is Bowser's son and the secondary antagonist etc.

With Sonic on the other hand... a large majority of his cast of character have a very similar role like him. Most of them are all super hero like characters who fight the bad guy of the day. Kinda like the Avengers only that they share the same narrative from the start.

[StaticMania]

Wario is Mario's rival...uhhh...that's an interpretation if I've ever heard one.

Bowser certainly is Mario's rival though.

Buuuuuuuut, it's not really like the Sonic cast can't fit different roles. Rouge's thievery, the Chaotix's detective shtick, Shadow's anti-hero alignment...those are all things that could be done more with.

Something neutral.

[Rowl]

Sure... all of those characters do technically fit an own role, but... so many fans expect them to be playable just like Sonic, which makes them characters that should be on the same level of importance like him.

[StaticMania]

Playable like Sonic?

Plays like Sonic?

If it's the latter, that wouldn't be a problem since they don't always have to be playable. Both Rouge and the Chaotix especially have roles that could easily bit parts, they could just be in the world and have missions of their own based on what they do. That could literally be anything.

It'd be like Generations...except Organic.

[Your Vest Friend]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Wario is Mario's rival...uhhh...that's an interpretation if I've ever heard one.

It's literally the first or second sentence of any given description about him, this much is not up for interpretation. 

[StaticMania]

I wasn't being entirely serious with that.

[MadmanRB]

Silver.... definitely silver.

Especially in forces, sure Silver has telekinesis but Sega has forgotten he has that power.

Might as well bring in Big again, at least he can slap enemies around with that fishing rod or have Sticks use her boomerang.

 

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Mario gets away with its large cast because the majority of the created characters exist for spin-offs.

The Main Mario games have: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Captain Toad, and Rosalina...

Spin-offs have: Everyone else and the Koopalings.

It doesn't exactly matter since Wario and DK have their own series, Yoshi having a smaller sub-series of games...

Mario has it all.

Actually, only Waluigi and Toadette were explicitly designed for the usual spinoffs, while Wario, Daisy, and arguably Donkey Kong & Pauline are borderline.

Everyone else debuted in and/or get the bulk of their exposure from the main games, including the Koopalings.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

I played Sonic Battle many years ago so I can't remember well, though I remember that she got stuck inside Eggman's base because her complex about pacifism was so strong that she was even unable to hit a robot.

 

I'd have to track it down myself, but from what I remember being told, was it really a matter of her not being able to hit the robot so much as her initially refusing to do more than block?

5 hours ago, Iko said:

 

I find this extremely weird since in Sonic Advance 2, when she meets Sonic for the first time, she asks him about her mother being kidnapped, Sonic ignores her and runs away without listening, then she decides to do the job by herself and fight against Eggman's army in order to save her mother.

Again, this is where the minimal story comes in: yes she's determined to save her mother as she has a right to, but we technically never get an idea of what and how much she was actually doing in the adventure: 

Was she actively in the heat of things the whole time?

Was she accompanying Sonic as he went through subsequent zones and boss fights?

Or was she mainly running and flying through things before maybe taking on Eggman a few times before the true final boss?

The fact that the game apparently has entirely separate "stories," particularly where the Chaos Emeralds are involved, doesn't help.

 

Ultimately, there's at least the easy neutrality of her being willing fight to help others more so than for her own sake, which is the vibe I get. 

4 hours ago, Rowl said:

I think the reason why Mario can also get aways with his large cast of characters is, because a lot of them fill in a different role in his universe. Luigi is Mario's brother, Yoshi is his pet... i guess, Peach is Mario's love interest I guess... I'm now not really sure with that after Odyssey, Daisy is Luigi's love interest, Wario is Mario's rival, Bowser is Mario's main enemy, Bowser Jr. is Bowser's son and the secondary antagonist etc.

With Sonic on the other hand... a large majority of his cast of character have a very similar role like him. Most of them are all super hero like characters who fight the bad guy of the day. Kinda like the Avengers only that they share the same narrative from the start.

The same can technically be said about most of Sonic's cast.

For example, Sonic, Shadow, and on the very odd occasion, Silver and Blaze come the closest to acting like super hero type character. Everyone else generally has a role or persona that usually aids in that, but doesn't really match it most of the time.

There's also the fact that aside from Yoshi and the Royal Koopa Family, a couple of Mario's cast can generally play a similar role he does by the standard.

8 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

Silver.... definitely silver.

Especially in forces, sure Silver has telekinesis but Sega has forgotten he has that power.

 

That's essentially how he flies, though.

Also, he does a tag team move with the Chaotix in the final battle.

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

I wasn't being entirely serious with that.

Nooo, really? That's so unlikely you.

[Shadowlax]

19 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Depends. Last time they did that, we complained how Sonic wasn't as important. 

That's the main reason Sonic is the only main character nowadays.

Eh

No people complained everyone kind  of played like ass and the story was bad and they they over corrected and we are here.I don't think people would complain much if there was a story not about sonic, if the game was great. And the people who did , I dunno could play sonic mania.

This is a non existent problem I feel.

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh

No, people complained

and they they over corrected and we are here.

Sheesh, how history tries to repeat.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Eh

No people complained everyone kind  of played like ass and the story was bad and they they over corrected and we are here.I don't think people would complain much if there was a story not about sonic, if the game was great. And the people who did , I dunno could play sonic mania.

This is a non existent problem I feel.

A lot of common complaints from that era was how Sonic himself only encompassed a portion of the game.

Namely, that Sonic was the best part and that the others "were getting in the way"

But I don't think having your Central character only encompass a portion of the game is a good idea, even if it was executed well.

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

A lot of common complaints from that era was how Sonic himself only encompassed a portion of the game.

Namely, that Sonic was the best part and that the others "were getting in the way"

But I don't think having your Central character only encompass a portion of the game is a good idea, even if it was executed well.

Most of the complaints I saw from that era usually stemmed from " These other characters don't play to good" that said i'm not gonna try to deny your experience by suggesting mine is absolute.

That said, I don't care about those people. Hard call out: Those people are bad fans in a lot of fanbases and get upset when main character-kun isn't on screen all the time. They can grow and learn and like better stories. I think the net benefit for everyone, for sega to establish these characters as valuable maybe spin them off in their own shit. But have games with these characters along with games that might be just sonic. And if the idea of sonic sharing the spot light is shared makes those people that upset, ....Welp

[Fire-N-Space]

Mario's spin-off adventures still show a whole lot more personality from its characters than what other games do even though most games don't get spin-offs. 

[DabigRG]

On 1/11/2019 at 10:29 PM, Miragnarok said:

Mania’s characters exist for gameplay variety. Admittedly, Forces and IDW’s casts mostly exist for marketing.

 

On-Topic: Any villain from 2013 onwards, right down to the Heavies.

Huh?

 

Also, dare I ask what's with you?

 

On 1/12/2019 at 4:10 AM, Fire-N-Space said:

Cream The Rabbit 

 Lacking motivation in adventuring she keeps following Amy around acting cute and friendly but she doesn't even like half of Amy's activities such as boxing,   being romantic or racing with her.

Sticks

 Feels as if she was invented to just be the straight man to Amy in Boom for she was the romantic one ( which she hardly shows ) with Sticks staying around   making sure Amy has something to complain about.

 

Not everything has to revolve around Amy, suge.

Even if that was a conceptual correlation.

 

Also, Boom!Amy is a straight man to pretty much everyone in Boom, with Sticks being practically the opposite much of the time.

On 1/12/2019 at 4:10 AM, Fire-N-Space said:

 

Blaze

 This female cat plays just like Sonic in the games she's in being so serious that it makes her uninteresting seemingly only being there to mete out justice.

Silver

 Silvers future never seems to get fixed and he kind of just hangs around trying to stop all evil in the world having no idea what it could be doing to his future. 

 

To be fair, those two have their own separate existences to hang out in unless either the fate of their worlds are in the balance or if they just wanna hang out with Sonic, Cream, and the others.

[Kuzu]

39 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Most of the complaints I saw from that era usually stemmed from " These other characters don't play to good" that said i'm not gonna try to deny your experience by suggesting mine is absolute.

That said, I don't care about those people. Hard call out: Those people are bad fans in a lot of fanbases and get upset when main character-kun isn't on screen all the time. They can grow and learn and like better stories. I think the net benefit for everyone, for sega to establish these characters as valuable maybe spin them off in their own shit. But have games with these characters along with games that might be just sonic. And if the idea of sonic sharing the spot light is shared makes those people that upset, ....Welp

It's not so much Sonic not being on screen, but so much as other characters not embodying what people play these games for.

If you're talking about narrative, I agree that Sonic doesn't have to be the central focus.

But that gets pretty hard to do in terms of gameplay when the other characters play so different from Sonic, which is what everyone's problems were.

[Fire-N-Space]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Not everything has to revolve around Amy, suge.

Even if that was a conceptual correlation.

 

Also, Boom!Amy is a straight man to pretty much everyone in Boom, with Sticks being practically the opposite much of the time.

Who said everything has to revolve around Amy? Amy gets left out of things to much for me to think shes the straight man like Sticks who is always rightfully skeptical of things setting up a scenario for Amy to complain about.

 

 

Quote

To be fair, those two have their own separate existences to hang out in unless either the fate of their worlds are in the balance or if they just wanna hang out with Sonic, Cream, and the others.

I see Blaze & Silver in Sonic's world more than there own world.

[DabigRG]

25 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

Who said everything has to revolve around Amy? Amy gets left out of things to much for me to think shes the straight man like Sticks who is always rightfully skeptical of things setting up a scenario for Amy to complain about.

 

Uh, i"m not sure that's what a straight man("ahem, woman") is, but I think I see a point there.

26 minutes ago, Fire-N-Space said:

 

I see Blaze & Silver in Sonic's world more than there own world.

Probably because this is the Sonic series that takes place in either His World(♪His World!♩) or Tower's World.

[StaticMania]

The "straight man" is more often the character who reacts to the antics of other characters...typically they're more grounded and level headed.

So Amy and Tails tend to be that in Boom to their friends. Sonic is that whenever he's with Eggman. Everyone is that with Knuckles....it's a dynamic thing, not consistent.

[JustAfooL]

1 hour ago, Fire-N-Space said:

I see Blaze & Silver in Sonic's world more than [their] own world.

Well, for one, Silver's world is the future (or a potential future*) of Sonic's world and all he's doing is going back in time. If we consider the first time Sonic was there was 06, there maybe a reason Sega hasn't really had the urgency to revisit it in a mainline game, outside of the first Rivals (which I thought was a different future) and Generations. As for Blaze, out of the two games she serves as deuteragonist, one did actually take place in her dimension, and considering how many games take place in Sonic's world (Screw the Two Worlds retcon; that was never the intention of Naka during the Adventure series and Iikuza's level designs reflect that aspect.), that's significant.

On topic, since the Riders series is pretty much dead, the Babylon Rogues should probably placed aside with Shade, unless Sumo Digital utilizes them in TSR. They're pretty much dead weight at this point. As for Shade, well... The less we talk about Chronicles and other echidnas, the better off we are and the worst off a certain hack is.

*Which begs the question if the games even feature the same Silver as the reasons he goes back are usually stopped by the end of the game...

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by JustAfooL
Clarification of intent; DabigRG pointed out something we missed, so thank you. Also, BOOM IS NOT CANON TO THE GAMES.

[Fire-N-Space]

Amy wasn't very grounded or level headed when she sold all her friends stuff and made a restaurant just to get better food where Stick is the only one smart enough not to trust Eggman.