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Which character is the most unnecessary?

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1 hour ago, Eurisko said:

Cream

Nuff said.

If Chao Gardens are going to come back soon (Sega seem to use chao a lot rececntly), she can have a purpose, there's nobody better than her to be the Chao Garden's "mascotte" since she's basically the embodiment of the Chao Garden. Though it also seems that Sega wants her to become a new forgotten character...

Anyway, I think that she was pretty "useful" in Sonic Advance 2 (a big part of the story was about her and her mother), Sonic Battle (even though she was kinda annoying in this game due to the obsession for pacifism... she was important in the Emerl arc of Sonic X even though that scene didn't happen in the game) and Sonic Rush (where she was a bit hyperactive but everyone else was too except for the main characters). She can be useful again if they write a good plot for her (just like anyone else), and gameplay-wise I still want to see a chao-based gameplay done right, I think there is some potential.

I think that there are characters in worse situations than her, it's just that people like to hate her, and she always pops up when a thread like this appears.

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8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

No, you're good. I love Omega as well. He's badass. He's funny. His entire motivation is based on something unapologetically selfish and inherent on revenge, something risky and almost unseen for a character not aligned with villainly in a series with a demographic like this. He and Rouge definitely have the most anti-hero potential out of Team Dark in my opinion. 

 

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

Omega is not only a great idea but also hilarious and everyone who's saying ditch him lacks creativity. Omega being a straight-shooting ball of rage to comical levels contrasts well with Rouge who always has another agenda. Shadow would actually probably find it pretty refreshing how predictable Omega is by comparison. Having a loud distraction that can also take a beating makes sense for characters that lean on stealth, too. 

He just...wouldn't be the brightest. He's very one track minded in his goals which Shadow...understands, to be frank. He's been there. The whole vengeance thing. 

Aw, thank you guys so much. It makes me happy to see others who love Omega too, haha.

Along with what you guys have said, I think he's a fun character. A walking arsenal who's really full of himself and will shoot anything down, while also having a sense of humor. I also think the friendship he has with Shadow and Rouge is kind of sweet, and shows this other side to this team full of anti-heroes. He's just a really fun and engaging character to me, and I really like him and the Team Dark interactions. I do agree with the idea that made Rouge and Omega and tied too much to Team Dark at the cost of them having meaningful interactions outside the team, but I think that's something you can definitely fix by simply showing it. Omega can definitely have his own agenda outside of Team Dark.

Sometimes a lot of the reason why I like something just boils down to, "He's just a funny walking robot who blows things up. I like that." 

2 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

Broadly speaking, I tend to agree with the notion that "axing" characters or labeling them as unnecessary is itself unnecessary, but if anyone fits this description, it would be the Babylon Rogues. Even then, they obviously serve a purpose in the Riders series, but generally it feels like they could've just created a racing game that didn't involve them or maybe involved an interesting new character instead of the boring cookie-cutter rivals that they are. Even when I was young, I thought the Rogues just seemed like clutter. They only exist for that very specific sub-series and for me there's almost nothing interesting or appealing about them as characters. I like almost every Sonic character to some extent, but it's hard for me to muster up anything better than stony cold indifference for the Rogues. The thing is, it seems like the "lore" behind them has some chance to be interesting, but the characters themselves don't do anything for me.

However, I do kind of agree with this. If there's one group of characters that I feel have the most trouble with meshing with the cast and series, definitely the Babylon Rogues. I agree with everything you've said about them and I probably couldn't say it better, haha. I think they're probably "trapped" by the fact that they were written with specific and limiting circumstances in mind (the Riders series). I'm definitely indifferent to them as well.

3 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

I don't resent their fans or anything, in fact I think it's kind of cool when people can see some value in something that I can't.

I think this is a really sweet sentiment! It's one I always try to keep in mind. Even if you don't like something, someone else may really appreciate it, and I think that's swell. For the characters that I dislike in the series, I understand that others like them for the reasons I don't and that those characters appeal to them. Everybody loves somebody sometimes!

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The Rogues are great to me because they're some of the few Sonic protagonists that aren't portrayed as misunderstood to some degree. They're just openly greedy, petty assholes in a way that's funny and fitting of a lighthearted Racing spinoff. I like them. They kind of work how Ian liked to use the Hooligans. 

I think their designs are really cool too. They stick out without being too much of a deviation. 

I can see why someone wouldn't though because the sometimes flat writing along with the voice acting will just make them come off as grating without the endearing part for some. 

 

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1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Thinking about the Rogues, I think I'd like them more if they weren't such strict counterparts to Team Sonic. Cocky speedy leader, flight-type brainy one, big dumb muscle.

I thought Wave was a great foil to Tails. I like the idea of him being blindsided by someone that undeniably smart being so rude and underhanded. She also flat out cheats on Jet's behalf without him knowing which kinda shows a distrust in Jet's ability to actually do the job vs Tails's confidence in Sonic.

Jet and especially Storm are kinda one note though, that's true. 

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2 minutes ago, Iko said:

If Chao Gardens are going to come back soon (Sega seem to use chao a lot rececntly), she can have a purpose, there's nobody better than her to be the Chao Garden's "mascotte" since she's basically the embodiment of the Chao Garden. 

That would indeed be a bright use of her, yeah.

2 minutes ago, Iko said:

Though it also seems that Sega wants her to become a new forgotten character...

It's not completely that, but yeah, you do have to wonder what's going on there after a point.

2 minutes ago, Iko said:

 

Anyway, I think that she was pretty "useful" in Sonic Advance 2 (a big part of the story was about her and her mother),

Which is funny considering she wasn't supposed to be in that game at first, but ended up successfully joining the roster to help make it fresher compared to the first one.

Which results in her having something the other character don't have: a family member and parent.

2 minutes ago, Iko said:

Sonic Battle (even though she was kinda annoying in this game due to the obsession for pacifism... she was important in the Emerl arc of Sonic X even though that scene didn't happen in the game)

I think we talked about this a while back, but Battle was in this weird spot where it has the honor of being the one game where Cream is given extensive focus and interaction, but it comes after her introductions of Advance 2 and Heroes, which were relatively excuse plot games with minimal to nonexistent storytelling. Which meant it had to actually establish a more defined characterization for Cream before it developed her from it, which in this case was the notion of her being something of a pacifist in comparison to the other characters. I never actually played the game though, but I have to ask: in addition to apparently having her going several rounds in the boxing ring with Amy(which is kinda outstanding), is there any correlation with this statwise?

And I really liked what they did with her in Sonic X, which based on a few things that's been said, might just be a little more canon to both tie in to Sonic Advance 3 as well as address a bit of potential snarling now.

2 minutes ago, Iko said:

and Sonic Rush (where she was a bit hyperactive but everyone else was too except for the main characters).

In comparison to the reserved Blaze, anyway. Though I did think it was kinda funny how her introduction has her spying from the bushes and deciding to Blaze home when I watched a little bit of Ted's run recently.

12 minutes ago, Iko said:

She can be useful again if they write a good plot for her (just like anyone else), 

 

Well yeah, that's part of the thing: Cream is more geared towards character interaction in particular in comparison to many other characters. Unfortunately and ironically, she's mostly been in games that are either light on storytelling, has a load of other characters who get priority, or just don't feature her in the plot. By the same token, since she's interestingly a character that can just show up with few strings attached, she's been in lot of games for the fun of it without the baggage others have. Plus, she's been a character that's more about supporting others over herself, meaning that the plot doesn't really need to be written around her so much as just taking a second to write her presence around the plot.

Talk about irony.

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, TideKai said:

 

Aw, thank you guys so much. It makes me happy to see others who love Omega too, haha.

Along with what you guys have said, I think he's a fun character. A walking arsenal who's really full of himself and will shoot anything down, while also having a sense of humor. I also think the friendship he has with Shadow and Rouge is kind of sweet, and shows this other side to this team full of anti-heroes. He's just a really fun and engaging character to me, and I really like him and the Team Dark interactions. I do agree with the idea that made Rouge and Omega and tied too much to Team Dark at the cost of them having meaningful interactions outside the team, but I think that's something you can definitely fix by simply showing it. Omega can definitely have his own agenda outside of Team Dark.

Sometimes a lot of the reason why I like something just boils down to, "He's just a funny walking robot who blows things up. I like that." 

 

Yeah, back when I first got the game, I wondered how he & Sonic would react to each other and to this day, find it odd that not only have they barely interacted, but that Omega has never popped up as a Wild Card during a adventure involving one of Eggman's bases.

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Well I did say this in a status update a few days ago, but I feel the reason some characters get labelled as "unnecessary" is because a lot of them just don't have a defined role in the context of the series.  And when that happens, it's easy to see them as "pointless". 

Like Sonic's the Hero, Tails is his sidekick, and Eggman is the main villain. Some characters characters can get a bit more wiggle room like Knuckles and Amy, tough guy trying to one up Sonic and  the latter is infatuated with Sonic and chases after him.

But then you get characters like Cream and Omega, who I will acknowledge as not being "bad" characters, but when I look at them, I start asking "Why do you exist?". People just say "oh well just give them a role then" but it's not really as simple as that because said role needs to make sense and feel organic. Nobody questions why Tails or Amy are around because their personalities and roles largely revolve around Sonic's. A lot of these characters tho simply do not have much of a relationship with Sonic, and while you can argue that makes them feel like their own characters, it also severely limits what you can do with them.

The storytelling in this series is extremely basic;  yea, there is some nuances, but for the most part everything is pretty straightforward. Sonic is always at the center of the action and characters largely associated with him can be easily justified as being inserted into the game. It gets harder to justify characters when that isn't the case, because then you'd have to take focus off of Sonic to justify their presence a bit. 

 

Tl;DR: Series has too many fucking characters, and most of them have no reason to be around.

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21 hours ago, Kellodrawsalot said:

I would say Cream the rabbit which is a shame because she has a cute design and could be a parrel to Tails, but with Sonic Team saying she cant fight anymore due to her pacisme its really hard to have her in a franchise where there is a lot of battles and fights

I don't think it was "She can't fight at all" so much as she shouldn't be too in the heat of it compared to the other characters. Which still means she can be involved in a fight or action sequence.

21 hours ago, Plasme said:

I think a lot of characters are unnecessary because they fill very similar roles. Shadow is just another version of Metal Sonic, only with an edgy backstory and personality. Just as an example.

So, any backstory and any personality then?

Not to mention a distinct design and other attribute

20 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

But if I must point someone it would be Orbot and Cubot.

I said it before: they have a very large presence in the franchise, despite fairly small fanbase and their main job is to take (mostly weak) comedy, which often leads to undermining Eggman as a villain.

I don't hate them (they made me laugh few times in Archie or Boom), but ultimately I just don't care about them and see that they do the most damage, unlike Storm the Albatross who barely exists at this point.

Orbot at the very least was meant more to have someone to Eggman to talk to so he can have his own cutscenes separate from the heroes and since Eggman is often comedic anyway, they both help provide that as well. 

The weird thing as of late, though, is that the story doesn't really...do any of that anymore, which means they get fewer lines and are just kinda there for the rare site gag. And honestly, when was the last they actually called him out on anything?

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43 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Tl;DR: Series has too many fucking characters, and most of them have no reason to be around.

This is true in some cases. 

But it could easily be solved by shifting focus around a bit. Sonic doesn't always need to be the center...you'd think that creating all these characters they'd get some small spotlight of their own without Sonic being around.

At least in Mario's case, almost every character was created for spin-offs, besides racing and Olympics Sonic characters can't even be used much there.

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20 hours ago, Wraith said:

and the Deadly Six put pressure on the characters that lead them to make mistakes and start arguments despite their lack of a character driven motivation. 

The Zeti do have some collective and a few personal motivations though

 

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Just now, DabigRG said:

In Forces? Yeah, I think many would agree.

Not just that but making him a separate from MS instead of having him being a younger version of him.

Also I really can’t care about a franchise if only two characters are allowed to exist.

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1 minute ago, knuckles20 said:

Not just that but making him a separate from MS instead of having him being a younger version of him.

 

Uh...technically speaking, he is still that since it's probably the one from Generations. It's just time travel theory taking its course cause of the Time Eater, the Phantom Ruby, and SEGA wanting to make more classic games without roadblocks.

1 minute ago, knuckles20 said:

 

Also I really can’t care about a franchise if only two characters are allowed to exist.

Can you even call it an installment at that point, much less a franchise?

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1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

 

Can you even call it an installment at that point, much less a franchise?

Why not? Colors and Generations exist, and those games show the issue I have with the current games. Anyone else involed has regressed from capable individuals who can take care of themselves into helpless civilians planted to stroke Sonic’s ego because god forbid fans care about anyone else but the blue hedgehog.

Going back to why I think Classic Sonic as a character unnecessary, it fueled the aminosity between the Classic and Modern fandoms. As if we weren’t divided enough. That doesn’t mean I want CS to go away. I’m fine with the two co-existing as long as MS gets his own identity that isn’t bogged down by going back to his roots all the time and he stands on his own without interference from his retro counterpart.

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I'm going to sound like an after-school special, gushing about my love of storytelling and how versatile the use of characters within an expansive world works to impress me and it's going to be a fairly long post so be warned... here I go.

One of the things that I absolutely do not agree with is any kind of notion that says that in order for a character to be relevant to whatever story is going on, they need to tie back to the main character. The main character of any given series is simply whichever character we're following for the sake of simplicity with regards to a general focus or idea that needs to be pushed so that a specific vision can be achieved. Having one just makes it easier to get across certain lessons, emotions, and stories through a structure that doesn't branch itself off very often. If the point is the "hero's journey" than it's most likely the best option to keep the main focus on one dude for the sake of an easier time. What actually matters to me, however, isn't how a character affects or relates to a main character but rather how any character, whether they be main or secondary, affects the world they live in and the heart of whatever story is currently being told.

There are games out there that take the approach of having different protagonists to follow with their own story-lines that may or may not cross paths depending on what's done. Even the Sonic series used to do this back in the day. The stories being told were about what the journey meant to the individual character and not necessarily what it meant to Sonic. The biggest and brightest example of that is probably E-102 Gamma, which still sticks out to this day as a tale that charmed a lot of people for being as unique as it was. 

Back then, I'd hear people say that the existence of so many characters was bad because it's the "Sonic" series and it should just be about Sonic. That argument never held much water for me because it just implies that the issue goes away if you name it something else like "Anthro-Adventures". It doesn't really work for any series that decided to name itself after something that wasn't the main character.

So often people try and find an inherent necessity in characters merely existing and too often it's based on things that follow a personal standard they've made up in their mind. The heart of something like Sonic Unleashed was about how Chip finally made a friend and got to see the world he was protecting for the first time in his life. They technically didn't need to do it that way. Light Gaia could have just been some faceless, mindless, glowing beast with no character that doesn't show up until the end of the game or something. However, when people bring up what's "necessary" they seem to mostly refer to the baseline bare minimum of what's needed to technically have a functioning plot. Branching out and having different people with different goals, occupations, and connections serves to build up an emotional connection to the world they inhabit. I view it all as a collective experience and not some mechanical thing where point A has to go to point B and nothing else.

It's fine having a character stick around because there's a story you want to tell about the consequences of revenge or the plight of being a loner on a mission. Even if you're a character who exists just to be entertaining, that's fine. You're not wasting anyone's time if you're accomplishing the task of serving as entertainment. You're still serving the audience that way. Okay, Big the Cat? 

I probably feel the most strongly about this since this is one of the reasons I became such a huge fan of the Chaotix, outside of just their personalities and designs. Knuckles too actually. I was always fascinated whenever they would appear because they would always be given some sort of crucial or important task to handle while at the same time being segregated from whatever Sonic and the others were doing. This was ironically handled the best in Shadow the Hedgehog, where, someone (we don't know who) hired them to handle some sort of task and their missions are kept separate and secret from the others. Because they barely had any interaction with Sonic in Heroes when they were reintroduced, this made sense. To the point where they don't even show up in the group collective on the Black Comet at the end. Instead they're on the Space Colony Ark, trying to finish their objective. The others don't know this and probably never found out that Charmy slamming his butt into the computer was the thing that brought up the video that revealed that the reason Gerald created the Eclipse Cannon and pointed it at the Earth was because it was in the pathway of the Black Comet's travel pattern and its purpose was to be used to destroy it using the power that they were trying so hard to obtain for themselves. It was also the thing that motivated Shadow the stand up and finish the job, with the new info and objective in mind. 

Shit like that astounds me. It really does feel like magic when something like that happens. I wish to see more of it but as of 2011 (Sonic Generations) onward, the Chaotix were regulated to just "another one of the guys".

That's a shame. The Sonic cast deserves better.

11 hours ago, Iko said:

And the Chaotix... they keep appearing in games though they don't do much more than what other characters can do. They are detectives, but aside of Heroes, they are never shown working as detectives in the games, and they don't even have iconic gameplay gimmicks to justify their inclusion for gameplay reasons.

That's actually not true. Aside from the tirade I just went on about in Shadow's game, In Rivals 2, Espio was out on some mission though I don't remember what. They were treated as guys on their own missions in stuff like Colors DS and the 3DS Olympic Games (the ones with actual stories to them, unlike the console ones). They didn't stop being treated as detectives until Sonic Generations which is the game where literally everyone stopped being treated as what they were. Honestly, I think the Chaotix were shown doing detective work more often than Knuckles was shown being the Guardian of the Master Emerald. 

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5 hours ago, StaticMania said:

This is true in some cases. 

But it could easily be solved by shifting focus around a bit. Sonic doesn't always need to be the center...you'd think that creating all these characters they'd get some small spotlight of their own without Sonic being around.

At least in Mario's case, almost every character was created for spin-offs, besides racing and Olympics Sonic characters can't even be used much there.

Depends. Last time they did that, we complained how Sonic wasn't as important. 

That's the main reason Sonic is the only main character nowadays.

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I meant Sonic shouldn't even be in the game. And smart people who are smart would stay away if the game doesn't interest them or if they only want Sonic.

Sonic not  being important in Heroes and Nex gen was only a problem because of how little story there was to his side...

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2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I meant Sonic shouldn't even be in the game. And smart people who are smart would stay away if the game doesn't interest them or if they only want Sonic.

Sonic not  being important in Heroes and Nex gen was only a problem because of how little story there was to his side...

And that's the conundrum. Dividing focus means Sonic will inevitably have less of it, mainly because his character motivation is the simplistic.

 

You could make spin offs, but I don't see that happening soon.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And that's the conundrum. Dividing focus means Sonic will inevitably have less of it...

There wasn't even any focus to divide in Heroes, that's a major bummer. A simple fix to that would just be not hiding that Metal Sonic is in the game and the different team's stories could have different structure to them...Metal Sonic being the "main" villain could've been a twist with build up if he showed up in Team Sonic's story a couple of times.

Sonic Nex Gen could've actually developed Sonic and Elise's "dynamic" or relationship...that's all. Sonic doesn't need to have any more focus than that, because his developing friendship with the Princess is automatically connected to Iblis. His side of the story could've been less about repeatedly saving the Princess and just him showing her a good time while protecting her from Eggman before inevitably getting captured.

This is less of a problem with the focus being divided and just not knowing what to do with Sonic's character. Sonic's story in Adventure is literally only important because he fights Chaos a bunch...nothing actually happens until the last story where Chaos gets all the emeralds anyway. In any sense, his role in Adventure is pretty much like his role in Nex Gen...but Adventure plays better, so people don't care.

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The Chaotix were doing detective work in Generations too. It's very easy to miss, but Vector mentions how Rouge has asked them to find red rings for her*. Even Forces implies they're doing some recon work, just with how the civilians are holding up as opposed to really deep recon (that's reserved for team Dark). And even without them, Peach hires Vector to investigate the ghost business in Mario and Sonic Rio 3DS, which is way after Generations. 

*Don't ask me the logistics of how that would work in Generations. 

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38 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

There wasn't even any focus to divide in Heroes, that's a major bummer. A simple fix to that would just be not hiding that Metal Sonic is in the game and the different team's stories could have different structure to them...Metal Sonic being the "main" villain could've been a twist with build up if he showed up in Team Sonic's story a couple of times.

Sonic Nex Gen could've actually developed Sonic and Elise's "dynamic" or relationship...that's all. Sonic doesn't need to have any more focus than that, because his developing friendship with the Princess is automatically connected to Iblis. His side of the story could've been less about repeatedly saving the Princess and just him showing her a good time while protecting her from Eggman before inevitably getting captured.

This is less of a problem with the focus being divided and just not knowing what to do with Sonic's character. Sonic's story in Adventure is literally only important because he fights Chaos a bunch...nothing actually happens until the last story where Chaos gets all the emeralds anyway. In any sense, his role in Adventure is pretty much like his role in Nex Gen...but Adventure plays better, so people don't care.

Sonic is the hero, he is the one who solves the problem and saves the day. He's not really meant to be that complex because the nature of the series is that of a lighthearted fight between good and evil.

But the second you bring in much more complicated characterization and motivation, you draw attention that Sonic himself is pretty shallow and disconnected from the plot aside from being the guy who fights bad guys. Which was the case from Adventure to 06 when he had to share the main character spot with other characters.

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So to expand on my on the fly comment from the first page

On 1/11/2019 at 8:39 PM, DabigRG said:

 

I guess for the sake of it, I'll just say Zomom and to an extent Zeena if we're just looking at the Deadly Six as a functional group in Lost World.

In terms of design, when I imagine the conceptualization process for the Deadly Six, I can sorta see the mentality behind most of the Zeti’s designs and characterizations in relation to each other and their collective purpose. But when I get to these two, I just imagine they were added to check off a list regarding diversity, be it color, gender, or body type. And if we go with the safe assumption that Zazz was one of the earliest if not the first, then they could’ve just been thought up to have two more Oni that are fat and a green girl since he is already skinny & pink, plus the obvious interest in actually having six members.

But on the thing that actually matters, being characterization, the question has been raised as to why Zomom and Zeena are among the Deadly Six. Neither is particularly cunning, vicious, or ambitious, and they lack a clear role or purpose in the Band of Six Zeti. Zomom is arguably the most docile member of the group, Zeena admits to lacking any initiative, neither is interested in doing or even thinking about much beyond their particular vice, and they just seem to be there.

The thing is that they also tie into a point of contention I have with this topic in general. If the Zeti overall were more developed and/or fleshed out, both as individuals and in terms of their specific group, there could indeed be something of a positive to their presence. The two of being so different from the others does indeed divvy up the roster, which means there could be some decent results from having them interact with the other group members as well as each other, some interesting commentary only Zavok or Zik allowed them to join up, how they managed to stick around despite their vices, and maybe even what that says about status of the Zeti overall.

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4 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic is the hero, he is the one who solves the problem and saves the day. He's not really meant to be that complex because the nature of the series is that of a lighthearted fight between good and evil.

But the second you bring in much more complicated characterization and motivation, you draw attention that Sonic himself is pretty shallow and disconnected from the plot aside from being the guy who fights bad guys. Which was the case from Adventure to 06 when he had to share the main character spot with other characters.

If Sonic really ends up falling down that trap of feeling shallow, that would be the time for the more subtle aspects of his character to show.

The scenario I described for Sonic's story in Nex Gen doesn't rely on making Sonic more complex (it's no different than that one Sonic X episode with the wheel chair girl), it's just focusing on more than just his primary character traits. Sonic's story is the one that's suppose to introduce you to the game and the world...which is why there's no real problem for him being not as plot relevant as other characters.

Sonic can have his own motivation of course, SA2 kinda does that with the doppelganger situation. Focusing on how Sonic feels about stuff can help this too, but they really seem unable to do that when Sonic isn't the sole character...and there's actually no reason for this other than they don't wanna try.

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