Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?

[Multikaris]

33 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sega/ST has proven that they're likely to release a mediocre product given all the breaks in the world. I hate that that dictates things because it's an excuse to shut down most avenues of discussion.  Sonic Unleashed released in 2008. They're not interested in getting the base right no matter what the circumstances are. They have made all the changes that people were sure would suddenly solve everything and nothing has changed because those characters weren't ever actually the problem. The story being an unfocused mess isn't actually down to the number of characters and that holds true to the gameplay as well. 

Platforming franchises have been able to hit the ground running with more than 2 characters in story roles and plenty of them in gameplay roles. There have been plenty of games from the playstation 2 era onward that balance gameplay and story. It's not a question of whether it can be done. We know it can. Sonic Team can't do it, but what can they do exactly? They pioneered the physics on classic sonic and they cannot reproduce them. They can't even make Generations again without making it worse.  Who cares what they can do? Nothing gets done over there with SEGA's godawful management breathing down their neck. No point in going by their parameters. 

So, no, I don't think this mindset really did help anything at the end of the day. The games's focus stayed split mechanically and the writing didn't get any better, so what was actually solved by taking them out? SEGA just used it as a cheap marketing gimmick to sell Sonic 4. Anyone who liked those characters got screwed and anyone who wanted them gone got duped essentially. 

And then those who liked them got duped by games like RoL soulessly milking the other characters for all their worth, which is why many fans failed to return for Mania. 

 

Much like how Lost World is all of Colors’s flaws aggregated, Forces is the embodiment of the soulless milking seen in things like Sonic 4. Milking several long-removed assets in as cut-and-dry a manner as possible is the philosophy of both. 4 milked basic classic iconography, teamwork between Sonic and Tails, and the Little Planet. Forces milked a darker tone, other playable characters, Classic Sonic, Knuckles being useful, and so many other things it’s ridiculous. Both were soulless products that raised more questions than they answered. They also both mangled a gameplay style severely. Forces is perhaps worse in that it highlights the many inherent problems with the Boost gameplay, while of Sonic 4 was not titled that way, the gameplay would probably be semi-tolerable. 

After this, it took seven years for a true successor to what we were missing from the Classic era to emerge. Even then, Lost World reset every last drop of goodwill the franchise ever had regained even before it’s released, and RoL had further damaged the franchise’s reputation, seemingly well beyond repair. 

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Wraith kind of already covered it, but yea. Sega have "reinvented the wheel" more times than anybody cares for and have nothing to show for it since 2008 when they axed every character to begin with. Even when we got good games without any character besides Sonic, they eventually fell back into their old habits of half-assing things resulting in a mediocre product.

The amount of characters were never the problem; Mario had a game with five playable characters that all played differently enough just a little over five years ago. So many other platforming franchises have done the same thing of balancing narrative and the amount of playable characters involved. 

I swear, are you even reading my posts? I'm not saying the other characters are "the problem". We agree that "the problem" is that Sonic Team/Sega fucking sucks. But they're not going to just suddenly get good unless they all get fired and replaced with people who don't suck. So while we're stuck with these suck-ass developers I would prefer they have fewer obstacles and distractions in their way, so if the stars align and they somehow regain basic competence for a few months they are more likely to end up creating a game that is good.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

So yea, if Sonic can't do that, it's not because of the characters. It's just because Sega fucking sucks. Plain and simple.  Removing the characters didn't solve anything, and it's not going to solve anything as so as long as they're committed to this half-assed direction they've been taking the series. So if you're gonna subscribe to the idea that no other character shouldn't be used until they "get the gameplay right" then you're no better than those people that just want every character gone period, because it's the same fucking thing at this point. 

Ah, great, can't even dare hold a different opinion anymore. Fuck it, 30 playable characters next game, it's guaranteed to suck because Sonic Team still sucks, but I guess ruining the characters even further is better than not?

[Kuzu]

34 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I swear, are you even reading my posts? I'm not saying the other characters are "the problem". We agree that "the problem" is that Sonic Team/Sega fucking sucks. But they're not going to just suddenly get good unless they all get fired and replaced with people who don't suck. So while we're stuck with these suck-ass developers I would prefer they have fewer obstacles and distractions in their way, so if the stars align and they somehow regain basic competence for a few months they are more likely to end up creating a game that is good.

Ah, great, can't even dare hold a different opinion anymore. Fuck it, 30 playable characters next game, it's guaranteed to suck because Sonic Team still sucks, but I guess ruining the characters even further is better than not?

Yea, but like...one isn't related to other? There's literally no reason that if the stars aligned and they got things right that they could not do both gameplay and characters. Because, as I said before, other game developers can do this just fine. I get it's your opinion, but it's kind of rooted in a fallacy that "Without X they can focus on Y", as if they are mutually exclusive. They're not, they're not mutually exclusive. 

Yes Dio, we CAN have both good gameplay AND add put some focus on the extended cast. It is possible, one does not need to be sacrificed for the other regardless of what history has told you. The fact that it has been that way in the past reflects more on Sega's mismanagement and not on those elements merely existing beside each other because once again, other platforming franchises do this just fine. There is nothing inherent about this series that prevents that beyond the people who are handling him.

Now if you don't give a shit about the extended cast and care more about gameplay than anything else, then just say that. That's a much more understandable opinion than trying to convince people that the other characters just shouldn't be around at all until they "get things right".

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yea, but like...one isn't related to other?

Everything has a cost. If you're going to have multiple playable characters you've got to spend time and effort designing, programming, and testing their gameplay and creating all of the necessary models, textures, and other assets. That means less time and energy goes into each of them, and there are more opportunities for things to go wrong. Am I wrong? Is it somehow just as easy to create 3, 4, 10, 100 characters as it is to create just one?

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Yes Dio, we CAN have both good gameplay AND add put some focus on the extended cast. It is possible, one does not need to be sacrificed for the other regardless of what history has told you. The fact that it has been that way in the past reflects more on Sega's mismanagement and not on those elements merely existing beside each other.

You are, once again, not paying attention to what I'm saying. I am not saying that good gameplay and multiple characters are fundamentally incompatible, I have never said that, and I'm starting to feel insulted that you think I'm stupid enough to ever think that. My entire point is that I think they should wait to work on doing that until after they get the basics right, after they actually understand how to make a good Sonic game. "They should worry about that later" and "this cannot possibly exist" are, in fact, two entirely different ideas.

8 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Now if you don't give a shit about the extended cast and care more about gameplay than anything else, then just say that. That's a much more understandable opinion than trying to convince people that the other characters just shouldn't be around at all until they "get things right".

Yes right the impossible-to-understand idea of "crawl before you walk, walk before you run". The completely insane idea that it's easier to do one thing than to do several things. The mere suggestion that not everything needs to happen all at once is just too much for people.

[Sonic Fan J]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Everything has a cost. If you're going to have multiple playable characters you've got to spend time and effort designing, programming, and testing their gameplay and creating all of the necessary models, textures, and other assets.

I don't really feel comfortable budding into your and @Kuzu the Boloedge's debate here, but the underlined part is actually both where you are right and wrong simultaneously. The further SEGA moves away from the basics for each character the greater the costs rise without question, however, if they just start with clones (such as Mighty, Shadow, Blaze, etc) or skins then at no point are any resources lost in gameplay programing, the heart and soul of the problem. You provide additional playable characters, but you don't compromise what the gameplay and level design teams are doing allowing for both to actually co-exist without a problem. Sure people will complain that there are no gameplay differences, but conversely they won't be able to complain about the friends being the cause of bad gameplay or that they only have Sonic to play as since that would take some extraordinarily willful ignorance to levels that I don't want to have to fathom. So really it's not a matter of it can't be done, but a matter of what are people willing to sacrifice to play as more than Sonic while SEGA figures out the core gameplay. Me personally, I'll take clones/skins since the asset and narrative teams are different from the gameplay teams and allows for me to have at least a little variety even if it is just in character model and animations. Too me that's better than nothing and doesn't divide the gameplay teams attention. The other teams that make up the development studio doing their jobs though is still a totally different ball game at this point though. Still, that said, the gameplay does not necessarily have to be as distinct per character as their designs to make them playable when clones/skins are always an option.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Everything has a cost. If you're going to have multiple playable characters you've got to spend time and effort designing, programming, and testing their gameplay and creating all of the necessary models, textures, and other assets. That means less time and energy goes into each of them, and there are more opportunities for things to go wrong. Am I wrong? Is it somehow just as easy to create 3, 4, 10, 100 characters as it is to create just one?

You are, once again, not paying attention to what I'm saying. I am not saying that good gameplay and multiple characters are fundamentally incompatible, I have never said that, and I'm starting to feel insulted that you think I'm stupid enough to ever think that. My entire point is that I think they should wait to work on doing that until after they get the basics right, after they actually understand how to make a good Sonic game. "They should worry about that later" and "this cannot possibly exist" are, in fact, two entirely different ideas.

Yes right the impossible-to-understand idea of "crawl before you walk, walk before you run". The completely insane idea that it's easier to do one thing than to do several things. The mere suggestion that not everything needs to happen all at once is just too much for people.

I'm not the one dissecting my posts and only zeroing in on specific things.

You keep saying "everything has a cost", and I told you specifically that is a fallacy, something that you ignored. Yes things cost time and money to make, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you have provided that implies that they cannot simply work on characters once they are done with gameplay with the same amount of time and money, unless you operate under the belief that video game developers are only given enough money to develop one of these things to exclusion of the other. 

The "basics" are something that should be worked out before the game is ever released to the public. This isn't even about "walking before you run", it's just basic business idea. What can be done with just Sonic could conceivably be done with any other character if they choose to do so. That's not to say the game would be good, but simply that they can do it. 

Every game since Unleashed when they started removing the cast have not been much better than when they were still around, so that already destroys your idea that focusing on just Sonic would help them "get things right". Meanwhile if you're somebody that doesn't care much about gameplay, you're still getting screwed over. 

[Multikaris]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm not the one dissecting my posts and only zeroing in on specific things.

You keep saying "everything has a cost", and I told you specifically that is a fallacy, something that you ignored. Yes things cost time and money to make, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you have provided that implies that they cannot simply work on characters once they are done with gameplay with the same amount of time and money, unless you operate under the belief that video game developers are only given enough money to develop one of these things to exclusion of the other. 

The "basics" are something that should be worked out before the game is ever released to the public. This isn't even about "walking before you run", it's just basic business idea. What can be done with just Sonic could conceivably be done with any other character if they choose to do so. That's not to say the game would be good, but simply that they can do it. 

Every game since Unleashed when they started removing the cast have not been much better than when they were still around, so that already destroys your idea that focusing on just Sonic would help them "get things right". Meanwhile if you're somebody that doesn't care much about gameplay, you're still getting screwed over. 

Mania is proof, or at least strong evidence, of this ideal. The framework is set up very tightly now, allowing for other characters. Yet those who are placed under the meaningless banner “Sonic Team” are such lousy level designers and AI programmers that the framework they have doesn’t matter. Thank goodness for the restructuring.

[StaticMania]

This discussion right now has come up before and someone said that even after 3 Boost games they still haven't introduced other characters. So it's not even about getting the game-play right.

Ignoring the story of Forces...the 4th Boost game, is there actually any reason that the Avatar and Classic Sonic's stages couldn't have been given to literally any other characters? There's no reason right?

Boost itself isn't flexible enough to be given to other characters that aren't as fast as Sonic and they don't want to do that...which is why alternative game-play styles still exist.

What Sega needs to do is either create a flexible game-play style that isn't Boost or just give those alternative styles to Sonic's friends, they put just as much time into those as they did before 2008, so nothing really changed.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I don't really feel comfortable budding into your and @Kuzu the Boloedge's debate here, but the underlined part is actually both where you are right and wrong simultaneously. The further SEGA moves away from the basics for each character the greater the costs rise without question, however, if they just start with clones (such as Mighty, Shadow, Blaze, etc) or skins then at no point are any resources lost in gameplay programing, the heart and soul of the problem.

Yes, sure, they could make a bunch of clones for minimal cost, but considering they did that with Shadow for Forces and people still call it a Sonic-only game I don't think it's what people actually want.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You keep saying "everything has a cost", and I told you specifically that is a fallacy, something that you ignored. Yes things cost time and money to make, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you have provided that implies that they cannot simply work on characters once they are done with gameplay with the same amount of time and money, unless you operate under the belief that video game developers are only given enough money to develop one of these things to exclusion of the other. 

I'm pretty sure that budgets and deadlines are real things that exist and that developers don't just have fat wads of cash laying around to throw at anything they feel like adding.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The "basics" are something that should be worked out before the game is ever released to the public. 

Yes and the way that happens is by...developing a game. You develop a game, with solid fundamentals, and then you release that game. And then since you've figured out the basics the sequel can be bigger and fancier.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

This isn't even about "walking before you run", it's just basic business idea. What can be done with just Sonic could conceivably be done with any other character if they choose to do so. That's not to say the game would be good, but simply that they can do it. 

...ok? I'm not sure what your point is.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Every game since Unleashed when they started removing the cast have not been much better than when they were still around, so that already destroys your idea that focusing on just Sonic would help them "get things right". Meanwhile if you're somebody that doesn't care much about gameplay, you're still getting screwed over. 

Again you're acting like I'm saying that removing the other characters in itself will guarantee good games. I'm not. Sonic Team still has to struggle against their own incompetence. Even under ideal circumstances they can still fail. But I'd rather they work under closer-to-ideal circumstances, by focusing on the things that are essential, and saving optional things for later games.

And if someone doesn't care about gameplay maybe video games aren't for them?

[Kuzu]

25 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm pretty sure that budgets and deadlines are real things that exist and that developers don't just have fat wads of cash laying around to throw at anything they feel like adding.

Yes and the way that happens is by...developing a game. You develop a game, with solid fundamentals, and then you release that game. And then since you've figured out the basics the sequel can be bigger and fancier.

...ok? I'm not sure what your point is.

Again you're acting like I'm saying that removing the other characters in itself will guarantee good games. I'm not. Sonic Team still has to struggle against their own incompetence. Even under ideal circumstances they can still fail. But I'd rather they work under closer-to-ideal circumstances, by focusing on the things that are essential, and saving optional things for later games.

And if someone doesn't care about gameplay maybe video games aren't for them?

Hence developers usually only get money to accommodate the ideas they're trying to implement and optimize their time doing so. So there is nothing preventing them from working on multiple things with the proper time and budget.

At which point, developing the basics of a game does not preclude the addition of other characters in said game to begin with, this can be done with 1 character or 3.

Focusing on one thing does not prevent you from working on other things after the first is completed.

The gist of all this is that there is nothing inherently ideal of having Sonic as the only playable character now. What you can do with him can be done with other characters present and still not lose anything in the process.

35 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And if someone doesn't care about gameplay maybe video games aren't for them?

I mean, I'm not gonna say this is a wrong stance because you've had multiple people on this site say they only really care about the characters and lore with gameplay being secondary to them.

So said characters being excluded is nothing but a detriment even if the game played amazing.

[Dr. Detective]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, sure, they could make a bunch of clones for minimal cost, but considering they did that with Shadow for Forces and people still call it a Sonic-only game I don't think it's what people actually want.

I wouldn't necessarily say that's the case only because Shadow was DLC. Honestly, it's hard remembering he was in it when I talk about Forces as a whole even though I'm perfectly fine with him being a clone. When I or other people talk about Forces it's mostly about Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Fan-Fiction Sonic.

I do wonder if people would still call it a Sonic-only game had those spots been given to a version of Tails and Knuckles that played just like Sonic though. It'd be an easy and simple first step I guess.

I'm totally cool with crawling before we walk. I don't really care how shit gets better so long as it does. Even if I care mostly about the characters, it's mostly for their potential to enhance the narrative rather than getting a chance to play as them again. Playing as them again is something that will greatly make it easier for the narrative to be more flexible as it immediately offers easy access to different points of view, different interactions, and easier ways of fleshing things out so that Sonic isn't the only one saving everyone and beating everything... however, it's still possible to tell a good story without them being playable.

So yeah. Baby steps. You don't wanna be like some guy in a trailer park who wins the lottery and decides that instead of rationing it wisely so that it can last longer and benefit him, he's instead gonna buy 50 cars and 40 mansions. 

[Rowl]

Sonic's shitty friends are now in the same boat as the DKC characters. Back than when the other Kongs and King K. Rool where still around, we took them all for granted. But now that they are gone, we start to miss them and start realize, how much they actually added to the DKC universe. With Sonic's friends it is kinda the same thing. They made the Sonic universe a bit more lively.

[Zaysho]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Again you're acting like I'm saying that removing the other characters in itself will guarantee good games. I'm not. Sonic Team still has to struggle against their own incompetence. Even under ideal circumstances they can still fail. But I'd rather they work under closer-to-ideal circumstances, by focusing on the things that are essential, and saving optional things for later games.

This argument's been thrown around for as long as I've been active on this forum. Sonic Team is incompetent, we know. Even I brought it up as a reason I'm pessimistic about the prospect of a Sonic Adventure remake a couple weeks ago, but this just starts to sound like more and more of an excuse. "It's not your turn yet, they need to get x right." People have been waiting for that for ten years or more, man. There's never going to be a right time at this rate, and something like Mania is not going to light a fire under Sonic Team's asses to get there any sooner. If Sonic Team is going to flounder around trying to get the series "right" anyway, you might as well throw those people a bone in the process besides talking heads on a radio. Not like the current method is gaining them any ground.

[Wraith]

Sonic Team has been working with longer development cycles since the turn of the decade and until very recently charged a $60 premium for their games. I don't want to hear "things cost money" as an excuse anymore. They are professionals. If they are to ask me for that much for the new Sonic game it's not unreasonable for me to make what would grab my attention known in return.

They just don't care and see these characters and their fans as disposable, or at the very least not worth indulging beyond the surface level. This isn't surprising because a lot of people feel this way about the extended cast, but can we just cut the bullshit already? You don't need to feign being reasonable about this by saying they might run out of money making Shadow's skating animation. You don't care about them. We all have things we want them to prioritize. It's whatever.

All this red tape about sonic team being incompetent and needing to focus on x before my imaginary amount of resources runs out is just a catch-all shut down for anything you feel they shouldn't prioritize. They'd much sooner break bank redoing Sonic's physics for the umpteenth time or doing the complete stylistic and branding overhaul required for a reboot in the first place then they would making some new animations and tweaking some physics on top of that. That whole line of reasoning is a joke to me now unless someone who's actually budgeted a game before chimes in. 

[Scritch the Cat]

24 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Sonic Team has been working with longer development cycles since the turn of the decade and until very recently charged a $60 premium for their games. I don't want to hear "things cost money" as an excuse anymore. They are professionals. If they are to ask me for that much for the new Sonic game it's not unreasonable for me to make what would grab my attention known in return.

They just don't care and see these characters and their fans as disposable, or at the very least not worth indulging beyond the surface level. This isn't surprising because a lot of people feel this way about the extended cast, but can we just cut the bullshit already? You don't need to feign being reasonable about this by saying they might run out of money making Shadow's skating animation. You don't care about them. We all have things we want them to prioritize. It's whatever.

All this red tape about sonic team being incompetent and needing to focus on x before my imaginary amount of resources runs out is just a catch-all shut down for anything you feel they shouldn't prioritize. They'd much sooner break bank redoing Sonic's physics for the umpteenth time or doing the complete stylistic and branding overhaul required for a reboot in the first place then they would making some new animations and tweaking some physics on top of that. That whole line of reasoning is a joke to me now unless someone who's actually budgeted a game before chimes in. 

I agree.  One of the most absurd bits of news for me was that a lot of time and maybe money went into developing a new lighting engine for sonic Forces.  Why?!  I will grant that the resulting game is pretty, but do they really expect this series to make a big splash with great graphics when such are all over gaming today?  Sonic games were already pretty; that was a dumb priority.

The truth is that while Sonic Team or its ghost may not be as good at programming physics as Taxman, they still utilize platforming in their games.  It's often in blocky, forced 2D sections, but that's enough for Tails and Knuckles to come back since they're good at vertical movement.

[Sonic Fan J]

9 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, sure, they could make a bunch of clones for minimal cost, but considering they did that with Shadow for Forces and people still call it a Sonic-only game I don't think it's what people actually want.

I was going to address this but @Dr. Detective Mike already beat me to it

6 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I wouldn't necessarily say that's the case only because Shadow was DLC. Honestly, it's hard remembering he was in it when I talk about Forces as a whole even though I'm perfectly fine with him being a clone. When I or other people talk about Forces it's mostly about Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Fan-Fiction Sonic.

I do wonder if people would still call it a Sonic-only game had those spots been given to a version of Tails and Knuckles that played just like Sonic though. It'd be an easy and simple first step I guess.

I will add though that in Sonic 2 Tails plays exactly like Sonic and that is not considered a Sonic only game and same for SegaSonic the Hedgehog with Mighty and Ray. Their is enough for them to be different from Sonic without any gameplay differences for people to still consider them different playable characters. And on the Shadow side of things most conversation I see on Shadow in forces has nothing to do with his playability and gameplay at all, instead usually it is his narrative contribution and the inconsistencies that go with it that I find people discussing. Even when I do find people legitimately discussing Episode Shadow it is usually the uninspired level design that people are complaining about and not that he plays like Sonic. I personally have yet to see that complaint about Forces so maybe I'm just being unobservant, but even if I am I don't think clones/skins is a bad place to start again like with Sonic 2 and SegaSonic the Hedgehog so that way characters and gameplay don't have to consume more time and resources than is necessary.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

Removing extra characters from the 3D games was done out of necessity. We know that the existence of the characters themselves is not what is dragging the franchise down. We just know that the way their gameplay was handled from SA1-06 was very much a problem. Theres no point in even arguing that anymore because even Sonic Team themselves have admitted it publicly.

This will always be a problem for a good portion of this fanbase because a lot of fans of this series patronize simply out of interest for characters other than Sonic and the gameplay is somewhat of a secondary concern. But as some have already said, from a game development perspective, trying to add extra characters before you even have a good idea what to do with the primary gameplay in 3D platforming is simply a bad approach. These people aren't going to like this and will complain about it incessantly, and that's ok, it's their prerogative. However at the end of the day it's not going to stop being true; you cant talk about bonus features until you decide what to do with the main offering. 

There are some who think extra characters can just be added to what has already been done in 3D so far. To that I say..............No. So many fans think that extra characters, for example, can just be plugged into generations gameplay and everything will be fine, when just a 5 minute examination of that kind of idea shows how bad of idea it is. But please feel free to prove literally all of the development effort of the last 20 years wrong if you feel otherwise. I havent seen a fan effort yet that comes even remotely close to an interesting concept (the lone exception being Utopia). Fan efforts and opinions on how to handle the 3D gameplay so far, no offense, has largely been really really awful all around. And rightly so because 3D sonic is more challenging than 2D and takes many more people to do. Fans aren't going to create a great 3D sonic gameplay and fix this problem to bring the character back, only the devs will when they have the resources and focus. 

[Sonic Fan J]

I mostly agree with what you are saying @UpCDownCLeftCRightC, but I do disagree with this

16 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Removing extra characters from the 3D games was done out of necessity.

What they needed to remove was extra gameplay styles and they didn't manage that until Colors and doubled back on that with the very next game and have been waffling since. Removing the other characters did not remove the core problem of multiple play styles which to date still detracts from them getting Sonic right. It's particularly aggravating as well since there is precedent in the series and characters to still provide a skin/clone to provide at the bare minimum a little bonus that has no affect on the gameplay. I know a lot of people don't like that idea but I'm good with that just like I was back when I played both Sonic 2 and 3 and didn't complain about Tails being clone, or Shadow in SA2, Heroes, and Forces, and even Metal Sonic in SA2B. Skins/Clones work as a way to add extra characters without compromising the gameplay while the gameplay and level designers focus on how to actually do that part right. I get that people affiliate different gameplay styles with the other characters, but that is not the sole way to make use of them. Are skins and clones not necessarily the preferred way by fans? Sure isn't, but since skins, clones, and story are handled by asset teams and writers and not level designers and gameplay programmers it's definitely a possible option. After all, Sonic and the Werehog are the same character and that's two gameplay types in one game with none of Sonic's friends at all are playable. their removal solves nothing but their affiliation with other gameplay styles which itself won't change as long as they are always given radically different gameplay styles.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

3 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I mostly agree with what you are saying @UpCDownCLeftCRightC, but I do disagree with this

What they needed to remove was extra gameplay styles and they didn't manage that until Colors and doubled back on that with the very next game and have been waffling since. Removing the other characters did not remove the core problem of multiple play styles which to date still detracts from them getting Sonic right. It's particularly aggravating as well since there is precedent in the series and characters to still provide a skin/clone to provide at the bare minimum a little bonus that has no affect on the gameplay. I know a lot of people don't like that idea but I'm good with that just like I was back when I played both Sonic 2 and 3 and didn't complain about Tails being clone, or Shadow in SA2, Heroes, and Forces, and even Metal Sonic in SA2B. Skins/Clones work as a way to add extra characters without compromising the gameplay while the gameplay and level designers focus on how to actually do that part right. I get that people affiliate different gameplay styles with the other characters, but that is not the sole way to make use of them. Are skins and clones not necessarily the preferred way by fans? Sure isn't, but since skins, clones, and story are handled by asset teams and writers and not level designers and gameplay programmers it's definitely a possible option. After all, Sonic and the Werehog are the same character and that's two gameplay types in one game with none of Sonic's friends at all are playable. their removal solves nothing but their affiliation with other gameplay styles which itself won't change as long as they are always given radically different gameplay styles.

True true. And that's really the point I was trying to make. The characters themselves are not the problem in the series, we should all know that by now. But in a 3D platformer, to make characters like tails and knuckles interesting and to utilize their canonical abilities, there are some challenges presented by a 3D space that you dont see in 2D mainly because of level design. You have to really build an entire game with them in mind and that takes a lot of time and thought. 

So I needed to phrase it that way, because I dont think making them clones characters of sonic's gameplay would have worked based on the level design philosophy of the 3D games thus far. Both tails and knuckles would easily, completely break all of sonic's levels in both SA1 and 2 with their natural abilities. You would have to severely cripple their abilities to the point in which they are no longer interesting.

Let it be known that I definitely do think there is a way to fix this problem and it hasnt really been done yet in this series. But until we get there, adding the characters into what we've done so far will not work.

[Sonic Fan J]

1 minute ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

True true. And that's really the point I was trying to make. The characters themselves are not the problem in the series, we should all know that by now. But in a 3D platformer, to make characters like tails and knuckles interesting and to utilize their canonical abilities, there are some challenges presented by a 3D space that you dont see in 2D mainly because of level design. You have to really build an entire game with them in mind and that takes a lot of time and thought. 

So I needed to phrase it that way, because I dont think making them clones characters of sonic's gameplay would have worked based on the level design philosophy of the 3D games thus far. Both tails and knuckles would easily, completely break all of sonic's levels in both SA1 and 2 with their natural abilities. You would have to severely cripple their abilities to the point in which they are no longer interesting.

Let it be known that I definitely do think there is a way to fix this problem and it hasnt really been done yet in this series. But until we get there, adding the characters into what we've done so far will not work.

I agree that full power canonically would never work as frankly I don't believe that would even work for Sonic without way over complicating the controls. As for Tails and Knuckles, while I can't think of anything outside of creative level design to keep Knuckles reigned in, I do think that in Boost game level design that Tails' flight as it was handled in Heroes would not break the game. Between invisible walls and minimal platforming their isn't a lot to break. Even in Lost World's style Tails' flight as handled in Heroes wouldn't break the game. Honestly though, Lost World's style with some invisible walls would actually benefit the franchise the most I think if they could just figure out how to unroll the tubes for the most part. Even as is though Tails and Knuckles wouldn't break that game at all and that draws my thoughts back to thinking that level design could probably benefit from being based on building inside giant tubes so that way you can add platforms, tiered terrain, catwalks, and hidden shortcuts while still limiting where the characters can go. Of course these are all hypotheticals on paper at best and with no programming or level design skills I have no way to test if it could work in a satisfying manner. That said though, I still think as long as limits are put on the characters like they should be that there are options with Tails' flight from Heroes being my go to for how it can work. That said though, I'm still good with clones/skins while they refine a true and reliable core gameplay that is enjoyable and lends itself to engaging level design and not just spectacle.

[knuckles20]

18 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I wouldn't necessarily say that's the case only because Shadow was DLC. Honestly, it's hard remembering he was in it when I talk about Forces as a whole even though I'm perfectly fine with him being a clone. When I or other people talk about Forces it's mostly about Sonic, Classic Sonic, and Fan-Fiction Sonic.

I do wonder if people would still call it a Sonic-only game had those spots been given to a version of Tails and Knuckles that played just like Sonic though. It'd be an easy and simple first step I guess.

I'm totally cool with crawling before we walk. I don't really care how shit gets better so long as it does. Even if I care mostly about the characters, it's mostly for their potential to enhance the narrative rather than getting a chance to play as them again. Playing as them again is something that will greatly make it easier for the narrative to be more flexible as it immediately offers easy access to different points of view, different interactions, and easier ways of fleshing things out so that Sonic isn't the only one saving everyone and beating everything... however, it's still possible to tell a good story without them being playable.

So yeah. Baby steps. You don't wanna be like some guy in a trailer park who wins the lottery and decides that instead of rationing it wisely so that it can last longer and benefit him, he's instead gonna buy 50 cars and 40 mansions. 

For someone who views Forces as another solo-Sonic game, having Classic and the Fan Insert swapped for Tails and Knuckles or any pre-existing character that hasn’t been used in a long time would had change my stance on it. Sure the Shadow DLC is there, but it feels like a last minute thing they added on to soothe the people who were pissed off they got duped for actual characters being playable. Given how playthroughs I’ve seen gone through it in less than 20 minutes I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case.

As for arguments saying “they need to take baby steps” or “they need to get Sonic right before bringing in anyone else”, I see it as a huge load of crap since this isn’t some indie company were talking about. Despite their recent years SEGA is still one of the big developers in the gaming industry and yet I’m suppose to believe they need more than a decade’s time how to make one character work in 3D. No I’m not buying it and we need to stop giving them that excuse because that grace period should had ended with Generations. 

[Silvereyes]

On 1/13/2019 at 10:58 PM, Bowbowis said:

Has any other videogame franchise in history ever advertised its lack of additional content as a selling point?

The only other example I can think of is Fallout 76 advertising the fact that there were no human NPCs in the game.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

7 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

There are some who think extra characters can just be added to what has already been done in 3D so far. To that I say..............No.

7 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

But in a 3D platformer, to make characters like tails and knuckles interesting and to utilize their canonical abilities, there are some challenges presented by a 3D space that you dont see in 2D mainly because of level design. You have to really build an entire game with them in mind and that takes a lot of time and thought.

Well... They wouldn't have to change much to include certain characters such as Blaze/Shadow/Metal-Sonic. They could fairly easily simply take the 3D Sonic gameplay and reuse it for them with tiny number of new added abilities tossed on top for each character. I think part of the problem is that many fans assume that Tails & Knuckles HAVE to be the first choice when it comes to other playable characters even for a 3D Sonic game.

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

8 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

Well... They wouldn't have to change much to include certain characters such as Blaze/Shadow/Metal-Sonic. They could fairly easily simply take the 3D Sonic gameplay and reuse it for them with tiny number of new added abilities tossed on top for each character. I think part of the problem is that many fans assume that Tails & Knuckles HAVE to be the first choice when it comes to other playable characters even for a 3D Sonic game.

This is true. But then you have to think, are shadow/blaze/etc going to start becoming a part of the main cast just so they can be playable in every game? That's probably not the answer, especially considering how the characters were written.... at least tails has an excuse to accompany sonic on most of his adventures. Knuckles not as much but I think ST treats him as part of the core cast (I dont think he should be as much as they do, even though I like knuckles, but the point remains).

 

[DabigRG]

Just make them playable extras and call it a day.