Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Jack in the Snow said:

I know. And guess what: those stories sucked.

If they have, it's not because of the cast they chose. And there's been terrible stories with lots of characters, so adding more wouldn't solve anything.

[Red Hot Jack]

Just now, Diogenes said:

If they have, it's not because of the cast they chose. And there's been terrible stories with lots of characters, so adding more wouldn't solve anything.

I don't want everyone in the same game, just not the trio only, there isn't much you can do (see: Colors, Generations' main cutscenes, there wasn't much, just emptiness) just with 3 characters, so yes, I prefer stories where the friends appear like the Adventure series or even Forces which was... something, a try at least.

[Scritch the Cat]

Funny how merely letting us play as other characters would override the technicalities of plots not really needing them, especially when plots take a backseat in general.  Now that I think of it, you could exclude Tails from the plot of Sonic The Hedgehog 2 and very little would change.  Some of the gameplay would be different, but aside from the plane stage, the whole scenario could work with Sonic only.  But playing as Tails offered new experiences (at least in multiplayer), even if back then, he couldn't fly when under human control.

[MasterDisaster64]

On 1/18/2019 at 11:46 AM, Rowl said:

I think it has more to do with the fact that they do not know what to do with them anymore. Most of Sonic's shitty friends have ended their stories years ago. It is kinda hard to use any character if you as a writer told everything that you can tell with them.

Take Chip for example. His story ended with Unleashed and it is nearly impossible to use him as a character anymore without ruin his finished story. A lot of Sonic's other shitty friends are in the same boat as him. Shadow for example also had his story ended with his own game Shadow the Hedgehog. He got all his questions answered, there are no secrets anymore to discover, he made peace with himself and G.U.N., and he let his past go. There is really nothing more to do with this guy.

And you can tell, that the writers really have big trouble in fitting Shadow into the narrative of a Sonic game. In most recent games he is just there for fanservice and is grumpy all the time. He is kinda like Squidward now.

Then again, Chip isn’t one of the characters people ask to come back, is he? It’s usually Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Shadow... Those still have more potential.

If you look closer, some characters’ stories didn’t really conclude as much as they just... fizzled out. Tails learns to be independent of Sonic, carries out missions on his own (or with the help of other friends), even avenges his idol... and then he just stops and turns into resident undeservedly smug exposition dispenser. Amy discovers she can hold her own in this world, inspires others to be better by her sheer empathy, does her best win Sonic’s affection by earning his respect... then transforms into a stalker freak, followed by generic action girl. Just rewinding the canon back to when they were most in-character, SA2, would let them resume these arcs and conclude them proper.

Then you have characters whose initial arcs are over, but could get new ones. Maybe the world actually turns on Shadow like Mephiles warns in ‘06. Maybe characters who never really had much development could have their own stories. The potential really is endless.

[Multikaris]

3 hours ago, MasterDisaster64 said:

Then again, Chip isn’t one of the characters people ask to come back, is he? It’s usually Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Shadow... Those still have more potential.

If you look closer, some characters’ stories didn’t really conclude as much as they just... fizzled out. Tails learns to be independent of Sonic, carries out missions on his own (or with the help of other friends), even avenges his idol... and then he just stops and turns into resident undeservedly smug exposition dispenser. Amy discovers she can hold her own in this world, inspires others to be better by her sheer empathy, does her best win Sonic’s affection by earning his respect... then transforms into a stalker freak, followed by generic action girl. Just rewinding the canon back to when they were most in-character, SA2, would let them resume these arcs and conclude them proper.

Then you have characters whose initial arcs are over, but could get new ones. Maybe the world actually turns on Shadow like Mephiles warns in ‘06. Maybe characters who never really had much development could have their own stories. The potential really is endless.

Tails even grows increasingly more dependent on Sonic after 06. His attempt to go on his own in Lost World (which is played negatively) is followed by him sinking to a whole new level of dependence in Forces. Lost World’s writing is simply deplorable, on level with the worst of SpongeBob. These events actually contradict everything good about previous games. Tails’s striking out on his own is now portrayed as a bad idea, as is reasoning with the enemy. The enemy, despite their human failings, is portrayed as an irredeemable monstrosity to be stopped, rather than something to be potentially negotiated with. 

[Diogenes]

24 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

His attempt to go on his own in Lost World (which is played negatively)

No, it's not. Tails is able to do just fine on his own; he escapes cyborgification, turns the tables on the Zeti, and reverses the energy sucking machine to restore the planet. What doesn't work out for him is acting out of spite and jealousy.

[Wraith]

51 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Tails even grows increasingly more dependent on Sonic after 06. His attempt to go on his own in Lost World (which is played negatively) is followed by him sinking to a whole new level of dependence in Forces. Lost World’s writing is simply deplorable, on level with the worst of SpongeBob. These events actually contradict everything good about previous games. Tails’s striking out on his own is now portrayed as a bad idea, as is reasoning with the enemy. The enemy, despite their human failings, is portrayed as an irredeemable monstrosity to be stopped, rather than something to be potentially negotiated with. 

Tails striking out on his own is the reason the heroes win. 

The previous games highlight that sometimes you have to come together for good, sure, but they were almost always fighting a literal irredeemable monstrosity while they were doing so. None of the hellspawns are given the same nuance Chaos gets and the Zeti are ultimately just in lockstep with that. There always comes a time in this series where there's no reason to pull punches anymore.

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

No, it's not. Tails is able to do just fine on his own; he escapes cyborgification, turns the tables on the Zeti, and reverses the energy sucking machine to restore the planet. What doesn't work out for him is acting out of spite and jealousy.

Yeah, he botched the Cybernik (skintight Badnik suit) affair, but his dissaperance was a bit of a stopgap, allowing Amy to be rubbed out. And the whole detour to Silent Forest was... oh, I guess Tails completely planned all of this to mess up a Cybernik he didn’t even know about. Really, Sonic saw the way to the volcano, he didn’t have to take that detour. And he also saved the planet by reversing the energy machine, that’s a big plus.  But then again, why didn’t he pursue the Zeti to clear the way for Sonic to make it to his destination?

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Tails striking out on his own is the reason the heroes win. 

The previous games highlight that sometimes you have to come together for good, sure, but they were almost always fighting a literal irredeemable monstrosity while they were doing so. None of the hellspawns are given the same nuance Chaos gets and the Zeti are ultimately just in lockstep with that. There always comes a time in this series where there's no reason to pull punches anymore.

This game has that too, but the Zeti don’t come off as hellspawns, just weirdos. And it also comes a lot earlier and is treated like this big thing when they’ve done it several times before. 

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Yeah, he botched the Cybernik (skintight Badnik suit) affair, but his dissaperance was a bit of a stopgap, allowing Amy to be rubbed out. And the whole detour to Silent Forest was... oh, I guess Tails completely planned all of this to mess up a Cybernik he didn’t even know about. 

What are you even talking about? Tails got captured saving Sonic from his own impatience, the situation would only be worse if he hadn't acted. And what about Silent Forest was a detour? It's on the same route they're on for the entire game.

[Multikaris]

20 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

What are you even talking about? Tails got captured saving Sonic from his own impatience, the situation would only be worse if he hadn't acted. And what about Silent Forest was a detour? It's on the same route they're on for the entire game.

Look at the Lost Hex from afar (like in the opening). You can see that we could have made a beeline from Windy Hill through Frozen Factory up to Lava Mountain, ignoring other stages. 

 

And as for Sonic’s capture and transformation to a Cybernik, well, the Chaos Emeralds are a thing, so Chaos Control could come into play. And even without one... maybe he can use his Wisp magnetism, but yeah, maybe Tails’s move did have meaning after all. Except for the fact that Sonic has pummeled four of these Zeti twice over at that point. 

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Look at the Lost Hex from afar (like in the opening). You can see that we could have made a beeline from Windy Hill through Frozen Factory up to Lava Mountain, ignoring other stages. 

If you're going to think like that, there's no reason they couldn't have flown straight to Lava Mountain after the Tornado was fixed.

8 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

And as for Sonic’s capture and transformation to a Cybernik, well, the Chaos Emeralds are a thing.

An irrelevant thing, since they're not part of Lost World's story.

8 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Except for the fact that Sonic has pummeled four of these Zeti twice over at that point. 

But he hasn't beaten them all at once. In fact, the first time he went up against all of them at once, they chased him off.

[Multikaris]

4 hours ago, Diogenes said:

If you're going to think like that, there's no reason they couldn't have flown straight to Lava Mountain after the Tornado was fixed.

An irrelevant thing, since they're not part of Lost World's story.

But he hasn't beaten them all at once. In fact, the first time he went up against all of them at once, they chased him off.

Well, it depends on how much fuel the Tornado has, and if there’s someone to fend off anti-air attacks. And the Chaos Emeralds were there, obtained via collecting Red Star Rings in each stage. Sonic would likely have four Chaos Emeralds. He needs one to Chaos Control. And the reason the Zeti chased him off is because of Badniks providing surpressive fire and Tails being struck in the crossfire. 

 

But on topic, indeed, this mentality is extremely toxic. I don’t see any other platformers get saddled with this, despite many having equally annoying characters. There was over a decade between 06 and Episode Shadow, yet the complaints continued to exist even when they barely did anything. Worst of all are people who claim the cast is inherently bad. I can see where they come from, but it’s still sad. I sincerely hope that this problem is able to be fixed once and for all by the Mania team.

[DabigRG]

What the...oh, okay. Ain't been here in a while.

Anything actually interesting happen?