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The Deadly Six will stay...

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3 hours ago, Jack the Shadow said:

That title sounds like a threat or a doom sentence. Sorry.

Oh! Well then, how appropriate.

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Well it's alright that none of these have been answered, because it's not necessary.

It's extremely ridiculous to act as if getting the answers will automatically make the characters interesting.

A lot of the time...it doesn't. A lot of the time...it makes characters less (or even less) interesting. A lot of the time...it adds nothing.

For the type of characters they are, they do not need any of those things.

Eh...I got back and forth, honestly.

2 hours ago, Jack the Shadow said:

Just have him written better. With more personality traits, I think he could turn out as a great villain... potentially. Deadly Six are generally known for being one note so I would fix that. Also he should be less generic and more of a fun villain, for example Flynn made the boring Neo Metal Sonic into a badass and very fun big bad. Better than Heroes at least. Infinite could have had the chance too, if Sega would let him be used into the comics.

Well, their problems are different from the Zeti's, for the most part anyway.

Neo Metal Sonic was a thing that was given little screentime.

And Infinite was just kinda muddled when you put everything together.

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You could say that about Zavok and Zazz , but the rest are pretty much dead . I don't mind those two to stay and be recurring villains  , but I would love if Sonic team add Zeena to complete  trio of villains , plus there is no female  villain role , and Zeena would be suitable .  While nearly everyone  butthurt about Zavok being included in TSR , I actually like that . Out of all deadly six designs , I only find Zavok and Zeena well designed , Zazz is meh , still better than the rest .

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I would attempt to redeem the Deadly Six by actually putting more emphasis on their one-dimensional characterisation, not less.  I'd say that it was a physical limitation of their species that each of them could only experience one emotion or sensation and were genuinely incapable of feeling any others; and that only the more competent Zeti, particularly Master Zik but to a lesser extent his pupil Zavok, were capable of appreciating how much of a weakness this was and seeing that they would be stronger banding together as a group.  They're only complete and multidimensional when they operate together rather than individually.  (What's potentially interesting about this is that you can use it as a metaphor for the bonds of Sonic and his friends, or show it as a point which Sonic can actually empathise with.)

Take their shallowness and turn it into a legitimate character flaw which they're trying to overcome.

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2 hours ago, FFWF said:

I would attempt to redeem the Deadly Six by actually putting more emphasis on their one-dimensional characterisation, not less.  I'd say that it was a physical limitation of their species that each of them could only experience one emotion or sensation and were genuinely incapable of feeling any others; and that only the more competent Zeti, particularly Master Zik but to a lesser extent his pupil Zavok, were capable of appreciating how much of a weakness this was and seeing that they would be stronger banding together as a group.  They're only complete and multidimensional when they operate together rather than individually.  (What's potentially interesting about this is that you can use it as a metaphor for the bonds of Sonic and his friends, or show it as a point which Sonic can actually empathise with.)

Take their shallowness and turn it into a legitimate character flaw which they're trying to overcome.

This is like the first fan idea on how to improve the Deadly Six that actually sounds interesting.

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2 hours ago, FFWF said:

I would attempt to redeem the Deadly Six by actually putting more emphasis on their one-dimensional characterisation, not less. 

So, basically do what they did with Zor already?

2 hours ago, FFWF said:

I would attempt to redeem the Deadly Six by actually putting more emphasis on their one-dimensional characterisation, not less.  I'd say that it was a physical limitation of their species that each of them could only experience one emotion or sensation and were genuinely incapable of feeling any others; and that only the more competent Zeti, particularly Master Zik but to a lesser extent his pupil Zavok, were capable of appreciating how much of a weakness this was and seeing that they would be stronger banding together as a group.  They're only complete and multidimensional when they operate together rather than individually.  (What's potentially interesting about this is that you can use it as a metaphor for the bonds of Sonic and his friends, or show it as a point which Sonic can actually empathise with.)

Take their shallowness and turn it into a legitimate character flaw which they're trying to overcome.

Oh.

I can sorta see what you're getting at, though it's still a tad weird.

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2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

That idea essentially makes them the Smurfs.

Except giving a less comedic reason for their one-note personalities.

Great. Now I'm imagining a little humanoid plotting to capture them.

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I love the idea of having more villains and I don't hate the Deadly Six... but I feel it's obvious that they can't just continue on as they have without something a little more tangable than what they've already gotten.

It's kind of like the Cream the Rabbit situation for me here, where, I know what their personalities are but I don't know what drives them to do... whatever it is they do or what they are or why they... do... stuff...???

Their motivation had to be given to them by the narrative of Lost World, and that could have been fine had it been something that defined them as characters going forward, but the story treats them as though they were already settled in their ways of being evil and that their standard way of life was disrupted by Eggman's intervention. We don't really know what their standard way of life IS though. 

They just ARE and... I'm kind of not okay with that. 

I know what Chaos is. I know what Dark Gaia is. I know what the Biolizard is. Those guys couldn't even talk and I know what they're about. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I know what Chaos is. I know what Dark Gaia is. I know what the Biolizard is. Those guys couldn't even talk and I know what they're about. 

They don't talk...but the stories are actually written to tell you about their place in Sonic lore. Which ya know, isn't exactly the same thing as the D6...because them talking wouldn't tell you anything the story itself explains via exposition.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I love the idea of having more villains and I don't hate the Deadly Six... but I feel it's obvious that they can't just continue on as they have without something a little more tangable than what they've already gotten.

It's kind of like the Cream the Rabbit situation for me here, where, I know what their personalities are but I don't know what drives them to do... whatever it is they do or what they are or why they... do... stuff...???

 

His name is Zaaazz. And he loooves to FIGHT!

And Zor enjoys misery.

But yeah, it's the others where we need a little more to.

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

 

Their motivation had to be given to them by the narrative of Lost World, and that could have been fine had it been something that defined them as characters going forward, but the story treats them as though they were already settled in their ways of being evil and that their standard way of life was disrupted by Eggman's intervention. We don't really know what their standard way of life IS though. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

They don't talk...but the stories are actually written to tell you about their place in Sonic lore. Which ya know, isn't exactly the same thing as the D6...because them talking wouldn't tell you anything the story itself explains via exposition.

Which is part of why Master Zik in particular feels underutilized.

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10 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I love the idea of having more villains and I don't hate the Deadly Six... but I feel it's obvious that they can't just continue on as they have without something a little more tangable than what they've already gotten.

It's kind of like the Cream the Rabbit situation for me here, where, I know what their personalities are but I don't know what drives them to do... whatever it is they do or what they are or why they... do... stuff...???

Their motivation had to be given to them by the narrative of Lost World, and that could have been fine had it been something that defined them as characters going forward, but the story treats them as though they were already settled in their ways of being evil and that their standard way of life was disrupted by Eggman's intervention. We don't really know what their standard way of life IS though. 

They just ARE and... I'm kind of not okay with that. 

I know what Chaos is. I know what Dark Gaia is. I know what the Biolizard is. Those guys couldn't even talk and I know what they're about. 

 

Are they better than the Zeti though? I doubt it, Chaos… ok, he has a backstory and a nice concept, so I like that. However the other "monsters of the week" are really dull and boring, even compared to the Deadly Six.

What makes the Zeti hated is that they are too funny and feel like a joke. I kind of agree with that. Only Zavok feels threatening. Cream, I don't know why she is being brought up but I'm not a fan of her either, she's just so extremely polite, sometimes it's funny so that's a plus, but she doesn't really have much outside of being "cute".

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So, speaking of the Deadly Six, I noticed a video complaining about Zavok on my Youtube Home Screen a few days ago. After finally giving it a watch yesterday and noticing that this video has actually been out for a week, I checked the rest of the guy's videos and saw that he did a follow up video detailing how he would've handled the Deadly Six in Lost World.

What ya'll think?

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The frustrating part is, Zavok does have an interesting character trait that's unique among Sonic characters: He is good at manipulating people.
Problem is, it's never utilized in any interesting way so nobody remembers. The only people he maniuplates are his own minions, which should be following his orders to begin with. So it just makes him come across as a bad boss.


I mean,a huge portion of Sonic Lost World's story is all about Sonic and Tails losing trust in each other, right? Tails being upset Sonic doesn't trust him etcetera.
Who wants to bet money that at an earlier stage of script writing, this is Zavok's doing?
That he manipulated Sonic and Tails to start distrusting each other.
Especially since Zavok and the Zeti open the game not as villains but as victims, they are enslaved against their will by Eggman.

So Zavok can pretend he's an ally for Sonic and Tails, give them advice, while secretly planting in doubts that causes Sonic and Tails to fall apart.
I mean, all the story ingriedients are RIGHT THERE. All of this fits with events that the game story presents to us.

Yet none of this happens, instead Sonic and Tails randomly hate each other out of thin air and Zavok does nothing but manpulate his fellow Zeti, who go from Slaves from Eggman to victims of manipulation. And then meet up with Sonic who immediatly starts insulting and pestering them into a fight with little to no provocation. I just feel bad for Zomom/ Zor/ Zeena.

And I can go on forever about Sonic Lost World's flaws and missed oppurtunities, but hrgghh...

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I'm beginning to feel the hate for them is somewhat disproportionate. Yea, they're boring and one-note, but how they've been described here, you'd swear they were the most  obnoxious characters ever.

Though, I suppose constantly reappearing after their lackluster introduction is beginning to grate on people's nerves.

It's just kind of weird because so many will defend other characters in this series who are similarly lackluster, but the only character that really springs to mind is Silver.

 

That said, yea the main issue is Lost World's story is more about Sonic, Tails and Eggman teaming up than it is about stopping the Zeti, who are really just a means to an end. Someone to justify the conflict of the main characters. 

That by itself would be fine but...the Zeti do not factor in at all in the conflict between Sonic Tails and Eggman and exist mostly independent of it. All of their scenes are rather generic bouts of villainy and nothing else, while the real meat of the story is with the main characters.

Because of that, the Zeti feel more like plot devices than genuine characters, they only exist to give Sonic someone to beat up. 

That wouldn't be bad either...but the main conflict with Sonic Tails and Eggman is pretty poorly written itself. So the main hook of the story is bad in addition to being driven by lackluster villains. 

The Zeti come off as terrible because they were never supposed to be the driving force of the story and are, as I mentioned, plot devices to drive the real meat of the story; Sonic Tails and Eggman's shaky alliance...except that its poorly written and so all you're left with are a bunch of one-note villains to drive a terrible conflict of the main characters.

So the Zeti are really just another symptom of Lost World's bad writing, so the hatred is understandable, if a bit misplaced. In fact, its extremely similar to Silver who was similarly hated due to how bad the writing of 06 was.

So yea, it's not that the Zeti themselves are bad, it's that their presence is a constant reminder of how badly written Lost World is. Same with how Silver was hated due to his association with 06.

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Silver at least feels realized. He has a history, a goal, motivation.
Enjoys life, makes friends. I don't think it's Silver personality that's among the bad writing. More from a meta perspective that he's presented as yet another Super Cool new main character, rather then specific writing.
Either that, or people upset about plotholes.
Like Silver trusting Mephiles, which I usually dismiss as Silver being used to being allies to creepy weirdo's considering he lives in a giant warzone.

The zeti spend their entire running time making jokes/ being the butt of jokes and little else. Poor things never had a chance except for people who just like the design or the jokes. There are bits of potential and interesting ideas for them, but all of these are painfully underutilzed.
I'm sure they could be salvaged if someone writers a new story about them fixing them up a little, but Sonic Team seems more concerned about breaking the popular characters further apart rather then being concerned about fixing the unpopular ones. If Dr. Eggman in his moment of triumph still comes across as pointless and boring in Forces, what chance do the lesser characters even have?

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3 minutes ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Silver at least feels realized. He has a history, a goal, motivation.
Enjoys life, makes friends. I don't think it's Silver personality that's among the bad writing, at most it's nitpicking about plotholes.
Like Silver trusting Mephiles, which I usually dismiss as Silver being used to being allies to creepy weirdo's considering he lives in a giant warzone.

The zeti spend their entire running time making jokes/ being the butt of jokes and little else. Poor things never had a chance except for people who just like the design or the jokes.

Silver was HATED, despite all of that.

When he debuted, he was one of the game's frequent targets of mockery. 

Mostly because the ease he accepts Mephiles' words and how the story doesn't really flesh out his motives or personality at all. So he came across as an idiot to people.

Trust me when I tell you that Silver was not anywhere near as tolerated as he is nowadays back then.

 

Additionally, fan favorite Blaze was shoehorned into Silver's story, and is partially to blame for her own background being confusing as fuck.

Being a badly written character from a badly written game is an extreme offense to some people and Silver endured that reputation for years before fans let up.

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On 1/23/2019 at 10:50 AM, Gumbit said:

You could say that about Zavok and Zazz , but the rest are pretty much dead . I don't mind those two to stay and be recurring villains  , but I would love if Sonic team add Zeena to complete  trio of villains , plus there is no female  villain role , and Zeena would be suitable .  While nearly everyone  butthurt about Zavok being included in TSR , I actually like that . Out of all deadly six designs , I only find Zavok and Zeena well designed , Zazz is meh , still better than the rest .

This sounds like a cool idea to be honest, especially if you have a talented writer to flesh them out more. They could even serve as an interesting foil to Team Dark.

Think about it, you have Zavok as the cold and calculating leader (Shadow), Zeena as the seductive action chick (Rouge), and Zazz as the crazy one always looking for a good fight (Omega). The other three Zeti can choke for all I care.

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I would like to see thier dynamics with other characters.

Maybe The chaotix have to solve some mystery leads to a couple of em, having them in more invovled stories and having them play off folks might give us a sense of a personality? Or none at all. And I mean the games too? Because I need there to be an in game established baseline for these characters that sega establishes that better than the previous established one. Because the previous one is nothing so any outside interpretation will be meaningless and is more subject to change so while they could be entertaining I dunno if that's reflective of that character normally. Like I can read Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, Amy , silver whoever and generally get a simular character in a bunch of different media, the D6 are wild cards.

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13 hours ago, Jack the Shadow said:

Are they better than the Zeti though? I doubt it, Chaos… ok, he has a backstory and a nice concept, so I like that. However the other "monsters of the week" are really dull and boring, even compared to the Deadly Six.

What makes the Zeti hated is that they are too funny and feel like a joke. I kind of agree with that. Only Zavok feels threatening. Cream, I don't know why she is being brought up but I'm not a fan of her either, she's just so extremely polite, sometimes it's funny so that's a plus, but she doesn't really have much outside of being "cute".

I disagree. Interesting backstories and established concepts are all that's necessary to make something interesting to me. I don't find Dark Gaia boring at all. The entire concept behind him and the lore his part in the story introduced fascinated me way more than the Deadly Six did. I've actually thought things over about the inclusion of some of these guys and what their existence means for the world and how it functions. Anything that can do that, has my interest, regardless of a lack of personality. They don't really need one for what they are. You have to be able to discern the differences between what one specific villain is to another.

You actually just explained why Cream was being brought up there. I don't know what you're confused about but I guess the conversation regarding her somehow hasn't reached you yet despite how often it's been repeated. And I don't think the Zeti are hated because they feel like a joke. That might be part of it to some people but I could care less about that. I certainly don't hate them but it really does come back to giving them some sort of point besides a slapshot alignment to the hero or villain side. They need some sort of established motivation and place in the world if they're going to stick around. It could be something as simple as being raised to be evil to do evil things, which I guess they're hinting at due to the fact that they have a Master, but that's not really something that's clarified at all. 

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On 1/23/2019 at 6:32 AM, DreamSaturn said:

Well, would Shadow have been nearly as interesting of a character if we didn't know his story? The ARK, Maria, Gerald, the Biolizard, the connection to the Echidna tribe and the Gizoids, etc.?

No, but that's because Shadow is a character defined by his big complicated backstory and his attachment to it. Not every character is or should be treated like Shadow. Hell, most of the questions you asked before you couldn't even answer for Sonic himself.

That's not to say there's no possible benefit to expanding on the Zeti as a species or the individual members of the D6, but if they're going to continue to be used I think it's more important to figure out what their place is here and now. If what they decide on requires some more backstory then so be it, but them ultimately just being a bunch of power-hungry assholes isn't necessarily the wrong choice, no more than Sonic being "just a guy that loves adventure" or Rouge being a "double cross spy thief who's out for [some] jewels" just because she likes them or whatever.

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I don't think Sonic Team doesn't need to give everything some kind of baggage. It's okay for characters to come from relatively normal places and be simple in their motivations or goals. I'm kind of tired of every new character being some kind of cosmic entity from another world or time displaced or reality warping or whatever. 

The Deadly Six are just bad characters.

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On 1/24/2019 at 1:45 AM, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I love the idea of having more villains and I don't hate the Deadly Six... but I feel it's obvious that they can't just continue on as they have without something a little more tangable than what they've already gotten.

It's kind of like the Cream the Rabbit situation for me here, where, I know what their personalities are but I don't know what drives them to do... whatever it is they do or what they are or why they... do... stuff...???

Their motivation had to be given to them by the narrative of Lost World, and that could have been fine had it been something that defined them as characters going forward, but the story treats them as though they were already settled in their ways of being evil and that their standard way of life was disrupted by Eggman's intervention. We don't really know what their standard way of life IS though. 

They just ARE and... I'm kind of not okay with that. 

I know what Chaos is. I know what Dark Gaia is. I know what the Biolizard is. Those guys couldn't even talk and I know what they're about. 

 

Honestly I was about to type but you pretty much summed up everything much better then what I wanted to write, I complently agree.

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As recurring villians, the Deadly Six don't serve much beyond Lost World and their characters aren't much more than the simplistic personalities that were presented to us.  I wouldn't count on them as recurring villians especially considering that the next 3D game may be a 2.5 game completely considering that Sonic Mania did so well.

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